UK Covid Inquiry: John Swinney deleted messages from Nicola Sturgeon

John Swinney arriving at the UK Covid Inquiry in Edinburghplaceholder image
John Swinney arriving at the UK Covid Inquiry in Edinburgh | Getty Images
Coverage of today's events at the UK Covid Inquiry in Edinburgh.

Welcome to The Scotsman's live blog of the latest UK Covid Inquiry hearing in Edinburgh. Today we'll be hearing from Kate Forbes and John Swinney.

UK Covid Inquiry: Tuesday January 30

Here's a quick recap of what we learned yesterday, with Michael Gove and Jeane Freeman giving evidence.

Jeane Freeman's evidence

Former health secretary Jeane Freeman told the UK Covid Inquiry yesterday that she will regret for the rest of her life those deaths that occurred in care homes during the pandemic because of Scottish Government decision-making.

Ms Freeman, who stood down as an MSP in 2021, admitted the government’s response was “not as adequate” as she would have wished it to be.

Kate Forbes is up now, and after being sworn in begins her testimony.

It doesn't take long for WhatsApp messages to be brought up. Forbes has provided messages, the lead counsel for the inquiry, Jamie Dawson KC, says.

Forbes did not delete any WhatsApp messages from the pandemic, the inquiry hears, except from January 2022.

Just a reminder that tomorrow we'll be hearing evidence from Nicola Sturgeon.

Our columnist John McLellan writes: "If they were selling seats it would be a hotter ticket than Taylor Swift at Murrayfield, so all eyes will be on the bulletins from the EICC on Wedneday, when ex-First Minster Nicola Sturgeon faces a full day’s cross-examination by Jamie Dawson KC at the Covid Inquiry.

"The stage has been set by explosive revelations in messages between Ms Sturgeon and her closest adviser Liz Lloyd, and the equally damaging conversations between national clinical director Jason Leitch and then Health Secretary Humza Yousaf."

Tight decisions would be delegated to Nicola Sturgeon, Ms Forbes has told the inquiry.

"Often those decisions would be delegated to the first minister," she says.

"The bulk of decisions would always be made by cabinet, but when there were fine points that cabinet hadn't come to an agreement on that final decision would rest with the first minister."

Kate Forbes said she was “surprised” to learn that meetings of the Scottish Government Resilience Room (SGoRR) and the Gold command group had no minutes.

The former finance secretary said it was the first time she had heard of meetings not being minuted, when it was put to her by Jamie Dawson KC.

She said: “That surprises me and this would be the first of me hearing it.”

Mr Dawson said: “The reason we think that is the case is we have obviously asked the Scottish Government for all of its papers concerning these matters and although we have cabinet minutes, we don’t have minuted records of either of those groups.

“It becomes difficult to understand what the ultimate decision-making process was when there is no record of how those decisions were taken.”

Ms Forbes responded: “I can understand that frustration.”

An awkward Cabinet meeting

Ms Forbes was shown an exchange of WhatsApp messages between herself and Alyson Stafford, the director general of the Scottish Exchequer on December 14, 2021, which showed Ms Forbes discussing an “awkward” and “embarrassing” cabinet meeting where now First Minister and then health secretary Humza Yousaf had identified an additional £100m for business support from the health budget.

Ms Forbes wrote in the messages that it was “news” to her and to former first minister Nicola Sturgeon, and that she had never seen Ms Sturgeon “this angry in all my cabinets”.

Ms Forbes told Jamie Dawson KC she had been tasked with finding additional funding from any part of the budget for business support.

She said “surprises were never welcome” at cabinet and that Mr Yousaf was “trying to be helpful”, but the idea was not drafted in cabinet papers.

Former finance secretary Kate Forbes has said she was “surprised” to learn meetings of a key Scottish Government emergency group held during the Covid pandemic had no minutes.

Speaking to the UK Covid inquiry, Ms Forbes made the remark with regards to meetings of the Scottish Government Resilience Room (SGoRR) and the Gold command group.

Kate Forbes said the Scottish Government “kicked into gear” very rapidly when sourcing personal protective equipment (PPE) and ventilators at the beginning of the pandemic.

She told the UK Covid-19 Inquiry that she would not agree with the idea that more funding could be sought or looked for to move more quickly when preparing for the pandemic.

She said: “I am not sure I would agree with that.

“When it came to procuring PPE and ventilators, I would suggest the Scottish Government kicked into gear very rapidly, and it kicked into gear several months before we had actually acquired any funding.”

Ms Forbes said her colleague Ivan McKee started to look at Scottish supply chains for PPE and ventilators.

Kate Forbes says the Scottish Government had hope that Scotland would exit lockdown in the summer of 2020.

Ms Forbes said: “I think, by April, we were looking at starting to emerge from the first lockdown and there was a lot of hope.

“At the time, our eyes were focused on getting to the summer and emerging from lockdown.”

"Immense sorrow" for vulnerable

Can I use the opportunity to express my immense sorrow at the devastation that was reeked amongst so many families, but also the personal cost and loss for those that had to shield, those who had to isolate and, particularly, those that were separated from family over that period.

Kate Forbes

John Swinney up now

The former Deputy First Minister is up giving evidence now.

He is immediately asked if text messages between Mr Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are still available.

"They are not", Mr Swinney says, and confirms they were deleted manually.

"I was always advised by my private office that I should not hold information that was relevant to the government's official record in what are called 'ungoverned sources'," he says.

"Throughout my ministerial career I have deleted material once I have made sure that any relevant material was placed on the official record of the government."

Swinney "worked all hours"

Former deputy first minister, education and Covid recovery secretary John Swinney said he “worked all the hours that God sent” during the pandemic.

Jamie Dawson KC asked Mr Swinney if it was difficult for him to devote the “requisite energy” required to address one single part of his various portfolios during the pandemic.

Mr Swinney said: “I worked all of the hours God sent at that time, seven days a week from early in the morning to late at night, and I gave it my all.

“It was challenging, there were multiple demands on my time.

“There were huge demands on my time but I gave it my level best.”

Swinney offers an apology of sorts

If I have misunderstood the policy of the Scottish Government in this respect then I would apologise unreservedly in so doing, because my intention was never to do anything other than make sure the official record was furnished with all of the information it needed to have.

John Swinney

Following a break for lunch, we are back hearing from former deputy first minister John Swinney at the UK Covid Inquiry in Edinburgh.

Mr Swinney says he deleted messages between himself and now First Minister Humza Yousaf “on an ongoing basis”.

“They would be deleted by periodic deletion once I was satisfied I had told private office any info that was relevant so that I was not facing a large number of messages that I would potentially have to delete on one occasion," he tells the inquiry.

Analysis of Forbes' testimony

Some analysis from our very own Martyn McLaughlin:

While many inside and outside the SNP expected this would be the day Kate Forbes had her reckoning, the former finance secretary chose her targets very carefully.

There was no stern criticism of the Scottish Government’s handling of the pandemic during the session, and she stopped short of direct broadsides against the-then first minister Nicola Sturgeon or individual members of her Cabinet.

John Swinney said that he used his personal phone to access Scottish Government emails so that he “only had one phone number and one phone”.

Mr Swinney said he used an app on his personal phone that was easier to use with his personal phone.

Jamie Dawson KC asked Mr Swinney if there could be concerns with senior minister using personal phones to conduct government business.

Mr Swinney said: “I understand that unease. The issues for me were practical issues.

“I could access with one device my SG email account, I used habitually, I was on it all the time to submit emails and respond to emails from my private office.

“I had that securely on my personal device which meant I only had one phone number and one phone to carry about because the dangers of losing phones are enormous the more you have.

Mr Dawson said: “But there may also be dangers associated with using personal phones that are not fully within the control of the Scottish Government.”

Mr Swinney replied: “I understand that.”

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