We never told Devine how to bend expenses rules, claim Labour MPs

Two MPs did not advise a former colleague accused of fiddling his expenses to take cash from an allowance to pay his staff, a court has heard.

Former Labour backbencher Jim Devine claims he had a conversation with Tom Watson and Steve McCabe in the House of Commons Strangers Bar in which they told him he could use a communications allowance to cover staffing costs.

But the two MPs told Southwark Crown Court that no such discussion took place.

Devine, 57, who held a seat in the House of Commons for Livingston, West Lothian, is on trial accused of falsely claiming almost 9,000 from the public purse.

Tom Watson, MP for West Bromwich East, said he hardly knew Devine.

He told the court: "He was a colleague, a parliamentary colleague, that's basically it.

"I don't share any political interest with Jim Devine and I was a minister for a long time and he was a back bencher, so we didn't meet often, and I never did I socialise with him, so I hardly know him."

The MP was asked by Peter Wright QC, prosecuting, about the alleged conversation in the Strangers Bar shortly before the parliamentary recess for Christmas in 2008.

He said: "Jim was in there quite a lot. But I don't recall going with him to the Strangers Bar.

"I was slightly taken aback when I saw the defence statement suggesting I did that. I have absolutely no recollection of any conversation that took place."

Mr Watson, a former defence minister, told the court that if anyone came to him with a question about expenses, he would point them in the direction of the fees office, rather than give them advice.

The prosecution barrister asked the MP if he ever told Devine he could use money from his communications allowance "in order to fund staffing costs".

He replied: "No."

Devine is on trial facing two charges of false accounting.

The first count alleges that, between July 2008 and May 2009, Devine dishonestly claimed 3,240 for cleaning services from Tom O'Donnell Hygiene and Cleaning Services.

The second count alleges that between March 2009 and April 2009, Devine dishonestly claimed 5,505 for stationery from Armstrong Printing using false invoices.

Devine, of West Main Street, Bathgate, West Lothian, denies both charges.

Cross-examining Mr Watson, Gavin Millar, QC, defending, put it to him that he did have the conversation with Devine.

The MP said he did not and then told the court: "I don't know what I'm doing here; if I'm honest, I hardly know Jim Devine."

Mr Wright then called another MP, Steve McCabe, who holds the seat for Birmingham Sellyoak.

The Scot said he knew Devine from when he was a member of a team sent by the Labour Party to help win the Livingston by-election in 2005 after the death of Robin Cook.

He also denied that the conversation in the Strangers Bar had ever taken place, and said he would advise any colleague with a query about expenses to contact the fees office.

Cross-examining Mr McCabe, the defence barrister told him what Devine remembered from the evening around Christmas 2008. Mr Millar said: "His recollection is that you had been to some sort of do in the afternoon or early evening, and you were quite merry."

The MP denied that, saying he had been suffering from colitis at the time, so it was "quite unlikely" he would have been drinking alcohol.