Jack Lowden - 'This year’s just been absolutely mental for me'

“This year’s just been absolutely mental for me,” says Jack Lowden. He’s at the National Theatre Scotland’s HQ in Glasgow rehearsing for the world premiere of The Fifth Step which opens in Dundee today, then comes to the Edinburgh International Festival and on to Glasgow. 

Directed by Finn den Hertog, the play by award-winning playwright David Ireland (Cyprus Avenue, Ulster American) stars Lowden and Sean Gilder (Shameless, Slow Horses) in a darkly comic two-hander that follows their journey to sobriety by way of the 12 steps. 

Lowden plays thirtysomething Luka, new to Alcoholics Anonymous and Gilder is James, in the programme for years and possibly the sponsor Luka is looking for. 

“Oh my god,” says Lowden, sitting down. “Just done a dance rehearsal. Getting old, like.”  

He’s 34, hardly old, but in the four years since we spoke the actor who already has numerous awards for roles on screen and stage was nominated for a Rising Star BAFTA, a lot has happened. 

There’s Slow Horses for a start, the hit TV thriller about reject spies for which he was nominated for a BAFTA for Best Supporting Actor last year and for an Emmy for Outstanding Supporting Actor at next month’s ceremony. He starred in BBC TV heist drama The Gold, by Guilt writer Neil Forsyth, and in National Theatre of Scotland’s Scenes for Survival series in Janey Godley’s short film Alone II.

His ‘mental’ year has seen him finish recording another two seasons of Slow Horses, with season four to hit the small screen next month and he’s also made the film, The Outrun, with Oscar nominee actor Saoirse Ronan, who stars. Directed by Nora Fingscheidt, the Orkney-based drama has its UK premiere this month at the Edinburgh International Film Festival. 

Lowden is also fresh from making another two films, James L Brooks’ Ella McCay in the US and John Maclean’s Tornado, which filmed in Scotland. 

Oh, and he and long-term partner Ronan also found the time to get married in Edinburgh this month. The pair met on the set of Mary, Queen of Scots (2018), playing the queen and her husband Lord Darnley, and along with their dog Stella, split their time between bases in London and Scotland.

Jack Lowden and Sean Gilder star in David Ireland’s two-hander The Fifth Step at this year’s Edinburgh Festival. Pic: Simon Murphy | Simon Murphy

It’s the first time Lowden has been on stage in Scotland since his debut in the lead role of Cammy in National Theatre of Scotland’s Olivier-award winning play Black Watch in 2010. Is he nervous?

I’m slightly nervous because we’ve had to work very fast. But it does lend itself to that because it’s a two hander, I just want to get up and do it. I haven’t done anything on stage here for years. I was a baby the last time, 19, 20 years old, so I’m genuinely very excited because I just love working here. And I’ve never been at The Festival as a performer.

What is it about The Fifth Step that made you want to be in it? 

I’m a big fan of David’s [Ireland’s] work which is sometimes slightly dangerous in terms of the things that come out of the characters’ mouths. I saw Ulster American at The Fringe and have never been in an audience like that, that reacted as one the whole time. It was just amazing.

David messaged me to say he was working on something and had me in mind and sent me a summary. It just sounded like a brilliant backdrop, somewhere like AA, to talk about loads of different things and that is exactly what the play is. 

I think people will be a bit shocked about how little alcohol and things like that are actually mentioned in it. It’s just this space where two men talk everything out. It’s basically all conversations. There’s a bit of time jump and a bit of distance. It’s a David Ireland play so there’s a lot of things that go on in it. It’s not just two guys sitting chatting in a room. It really, really isn’t!

Have you worked with Sean Gilder before? 

I have. Sean is in Slow Horses but I never did any scenes with him. He plays Bad Sam Chapman and Gary [Oldman] kept meeting him in a launderette. Sean’s in the fourth series that’s going to come out next month. We did a couple of scenes together in The Gold, which is where I met him.  I’ve always been aware of Sean’s work and it’s such an important thing when it’s a two-hander - I’ve never done one before - to have somebody of his calibre. It’s a real gift. 

The Outrun is also concerned with alcohol addiction isn’t it?

It also has a huge thread of alcoholism burnt through it, so I’ve been in this world quite a bit recently. We met related groups doing The Outrun and it’s amazing how little alcohol is talked about and how that’s dealt with very quickly. It’s about developing yourself and dealing with shame and things like that.  

Jack Lowden stars in the National Theatre of Scotland's The Fifth Step at Edinburgh Festival | Simon Murphy

In The Fifth Step you play Luka and Sean Gilder is James. What can you tell us about them? 

“Luka is my age. He’s come in to AA as a preemptive step he’s taking with his alcoholism and meets an older man who is a seasoned AA member that’s been sober for 20-odd years. It’s about the two of them, someone with that amount of life experience versus somebody who is a little bit naive. Luka experiences the world like a new born baby all the time and he’s not very cynical, which is the complete opposite to me and quite difficult to squash. He’s very wide eyed and says things that my initial reaction to was ‘I’d never say anything like that, I can’t believe a 30-year-old would say things like that’. But they do, and there’s an innocence to the way he does it and that’s the great challenge to play. It comes from a place of wonderful ignorance and naivety. It’s about the power dynamic between sponsors and the sponsored. 

Why are you cynical? 

I’ve always felt about where I grew up, or maybe it’s Scotland in general, that we have a very healthy cynicism that we have to keep an eye on so it doesn’t get too unhealthy, and we just think everything’s rubbish. But I’ve always been very proud of that scepticism and cynicism. It’s very human and keeps our feet very firmly on the ground. The challenge sometimes is putting that to one side at times and believing in oneself more, not questioning things too much. I’ve always felt we’re wonderful questioners, good at finding problems then solving them. I’ve had to learn that about myself and learn when I can let that go and just go for it, and I’ve had wonderful people throughout my life so that has rubbed off on me. 

The Fifth Step is about acknowledging shame and dealing with it. Is there anything you’ve felt shame about that makes you identify with Luka?  

For years I didn’t know how big a part shame plays in one’s life, in every day, how it’s linked in to embarrassment and things like that. I’ve had many times where I’m incredibly hard on myself. I’m incredibly quick to forgive others, almost too quick, but I now know that I do that because I cannot ever forgive myself because I feel such shame. About anything, big, small, whatever. So I forgive people very quickly and I enjoy being like that because the idea of holding a resentment against somebody, I can’t do that. I have to go and sort it out. So it can be a useful thing as well, shame, to a certain extent. 

What did you take from making The Outrun that feeds into The Fifth Step? 

The use of humour in tacking addiction. There has to be humour because addiction quite often brings humans to their lowest point and makes them do dreadful things that almost seem too hard to bounce back from it, and it’s amazing how useful humour is to keep it in perspective. Particularly when we did The Outrun, we met AA groups and some of them were wonderful enough to offer to be in the film. They were so open to talk about their experiences and know that it helps. But they do it through humour. They don’t just sit and everybody’s crying all the time. More often than not it’s everybody sort of laughing at one another because it’s a horrible feeling to deal with and one way of fronting it up is to laugh at it. They’re wonderful orators as well. Everybody is telling stories all the time and some people are born comics, because they have an audience. 

By the end of the run of The Fifth Step, will you feel differently about yourself? 

I don’t know. Your thirties is the great watershed from when you could go out and drink or whatever and not really feel it. When I tipped into my thirties I started to really feel it and I know I’m not alone. My peers and friends are going through periods not drinking or trying to drink less, and it’s becoming slightly easier to do that now. I would be amazed if both The Outrun and this haven’t made me way more conscious about it and also thankful that I’ve been lucky that I don’t have the addictions some have because it really does rip people apart. So it’s given me such a huge respect for people that basically beat it. The strength is just incredible. 

I remember on a job years ago when I was 22 or 23 in a foreign country, and all the cast were out drinking and having fun and there was an actor in his thirties drinking herbal tea and I remember going ‘how can you do that?’ Just the sheer strength of sitting in a social situation being able to do that, it’s superhuman, but people can do that. 

Some of the themes of The Fifth Step are men, intimacy and what we choose to put our faith in. What do you put your faith in? 

I put my faith in the people around me. I feel very lucky, the people that I’ve got around me, from family to friends. There’s a group of probably about ten who are my barometer for everything. Everything from advice to needing a smack around the back of the head, I have it around me. I’ve never been a religious person but I’ve always been innately jealous of the peace and solace that people find in something like that, and the character I play starts to find that. It’s a wonderful thing to have complete conviction in something and it’s made me realise that I have that in the people around me. You cannot do life on your own and you need people or faith, or something.

There’s more Slow Horses to come in September, what can you tell us about it? 

That’s number four and we’ve just finished shooting number five so yeah, it’s going brilliantly well and just growing and growing. Slow Horses is such an oddity; there’s nothing like it really, so it’s just been a joy to do. It’s been a mad year of doing that. I also did a Jim Brooks film over in America [Ella McCay] which was fun and John Maclean's new film Tornado, which we shot in The Pentlands in January - it was Baltic! It’s me and Tim Roth, Takehiro Hira, Kōki and Rory McCann. It’s a small budget film and we shot it really quickly. 

You’re working all over, where is home?

I’m mainly based in London because of Slow Horses, but I do have a base in Scotland. Scotland is where I try and be as much as I can. 

You made Outrun with your own independent film and production company, Arcade Pictures. Will you make more films? 

We set that company up to make The Outrun and it’s now Dominic’s [Norris] company. Sersh and I are going to take a beat to think of the best way to do it because being actors, it is difficult with your day job. We’re just glad we were able to do it for The Outrun and it was a great experience, great fun. It’s the most satisfying thing. Saoirse and I are looking for the next thing for us to do together, and we’ve got a couple of ideas, so we’ll keep working on it. 

Can you give us a hint about those ideas?

No, I can’t tell you. Not yet. But we’re definitely going to do something else. 

Jack Lowden in the lead role of Cammy in 2010 in the National Theatre of Scotland's award-winning play Black Watch. Pic: Manuel Harlan | Manuel Harlan

I interviewed you four years ago when you were nominated for a BAFTA Rising Star award. A lot’s happened for you since then. What are you most proud of?

Probably producing The Outrun. I’m very proud of that. And Slow Horses, because it’s a big commitment as an actor, a recurring thing, so I’m proud of that, but ultimately thankful it’s worked out. 

Is there anything else you want to say about The Fifth Step?

Come and see it please! At the Pavilion, because it’s sold out in Dundee and Edinburgh, so come to Glasgow! 

The Outrun is in UK and Irish cinemas from 27 September.

Slow Horses season 4 is coming to Apple TV+ next month.