Dundee University: The damning questions for ex-principal Iain Gillespie - and his answers

The Scotsman runs through the bombshell answers Professor Iain Gillespie gave during a three-hour grilling in Holyrood.

“Incompetent” with “very poor” knowledge on finances. It was the damning admission made by Professor Iain Gillespie, the former principal who “almost destroyed” Dundee University.

In a mammoth three-hour session, Prof Gillespie was grilled by Holyrood’s education committee to find out exactly what went wrong and how the university racked up a £35 million deficit.

During the session, he was accused of “lying” and of being a “good time Charlie” who was not prepared to take the lead when times were tough.

The Scotsman looks at how he answered some of the most astonishing questions on overseeing the crisis.

Professor Iain Gillespie, former principal and vice-chancellor of Dundee University, at Holyrood's education committee. | Andrew Cowan/Scottish Parliament

Are you incompetent or corrupt?

He said: “Certainly not corrupt, so I would have to choose incompetent.”

Who should pay for the failure?

He said: “What do you mean who should pay? I paid in that I lost my job.”

Professor Gillespie also said he “accepted ultimate responsibility”.

Did you deliberately withhold information?

He said: “I certainly did not deliberately withhold information.”

Miles Briggs MSP later suggested he had asked others to withhold information, and Prof Gillespie said: “Absolutely, categorically not.”

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Did you think you were a good leader?

He said: “The university had long-term financial and cultural challenges when I joined Dundee - it had gone through difficult times with previous leadership and finances.

“Dundee had lost its confidence and direction and I tried to build a sense of direction, strategy and confidence.

“That required some robust conversations and difficult decisions, which were not always popular with everyone.”

Read more: Dundee University: 10 bombshell revelations as bosses at crisis-hit Scottish university quizzed at Parliament

Are you a coward?

Committee convener Douglas Ross MSP asked this as he “couldn’t face the staff losing their jobs or the students whose studies were disrupted”. He said: “You created a mess and walked into the sunset.”

Prof Gillespie said: “That’s a damning interpretation of what happened. I don’t think I am a coward.”

Education committee convener Douglas Ross MSP

Did you lie?

Mr Ross asked Prof Gillespie if he had lied when he told the university “it was moving into a surplus after a decade of deficit”.

Prof Gillespie said: “It was perhaps incorrect, but it was not a lie.”

Mr Ross suggested it was as he made the statement “in full knowledge” of an £8m hole in the finances.

Has anyone ever complained about your behaviour?

Lib Dems MSP Willie Rennie initially asked if anyone had complained about Prof Gillespie in any of his previous roles before joining Dundee University. Prof Gillespie said he did not remember.

He was later pressed on this again and admitted someone had complained about his “overbearing behaviour” while working at the Natural Environment Research Council.

During the course of the interview session that individual then contacted Mr Rennie and said: “I went to another university completely broken and I lost a lot, including a final salary pension.”

Mr Rennie said the fact Prof Gillespie initially denied this “tells us a lot about you”.

The former principal also said he “doesn’t remember” whether he asked anyone to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Willie Rennie MSP. | Lisa Ferguson/National World.

Will you give back your £150,000 pay-off?

Mr Ross, Mr Briggs and Mr Rennie all told Prof Gillespie to hand-back the massive pay-off of six months’ salary when he resigned.

First Minister John Swinney has also since called for Prof Gillespie to return the money.

Prof Gillespie said the money was a “contractual obligation”, but eventually conceded that he would “reflect” on the suggestion with his family.

Did you ever stop and think the problem was you?

Mr Ross highlighted the fact that 17 senior members of staff, including three finance directors, left their jobs under Prof Gillespie’s leadership. The former Scottish Tories leader asked if Prof Gillespie was at fault.

The ex-principal said: “No, I didn’t think I was the problem. They left because of the challenging environments they found themselves in, but I was not the problem.”

Later he was asked if people were afraid to challenge him, after suggestions he presided over a toxic culture. Prof Gillespie said: “I suspect some people were not afraid and others were.”

Were you betrayed?

He said: “I was sad and shocked, not shocked, that’s not true, I was very sad.

“Clearly I could see the financial situation deteriorating very quickly and I recognised that as principal I had to take responsibility. Of course it hurts.”

Michael Marra MSP, who previously worked at Dundee University, then said on his final day in the job, Prof Gillespie left his key and staff card on his desk on top of a copy of the book ‘The Spy and The Traitor’.

Prof Gillespie denied this was tactical and said he was merely returning a book he had borrowed from a colleague.

Do you contest the findings of the Gillies report?

The Gillies report into what went wrong at the university “completely eviscerates” Prof Gillespie. He said he “does not recognise the characteristics of my management style” detailed in the report.

Mr Ross asked if Prof Gillespie contested the report’s findings and the former university boss said: “How it represents me is not something I recognise.”

Were you not aware your team was not up to the job?

On Thursday former finance director Peter Fotheringham admitted he “struggled” with the job and was under-resourced. Questions were also raised about former court chair Amanda Miller’s suitability for the job as she had no finance experience.

Prof Gillespie said: “I take responsibility and I am clear the buck stops with me. Everything I heard about Mr Fotheringham was that he was quiet, but effective, competent and in control.

“Should I have dug further with the benefit of hindsight? Yes.”

When asked if these individuals were “over-promoted” and “beyond their abilities”, Prof Gillespie said: “With the benefit of hindsight, evidently they were struggling.”

Former court chair Amanda Miller, former chief operating officer Dr Jim McGeorge and former finance director Peter Fotheringham | Andrew Cowan/Scottish Parliament

‘Demonstrating hubris and excessive pride’ - did you ever struggle with your role?

He said: “Any principal who says they didn’t struggle would be delusional, so yes.”

Prof Gillespie then said he struggled with imposter syndrome, developing strategy and education as he came from a research background.

He said: “I wanted to instil confidence and direction in the university - if that is interpreted as hubris, then I accept that. That’s the role of the university leader.

“Of course I was proud to be principal of a great university, but I’m not sure it was excessive.”

Did you know about the covenant breach?

Questions have been raised about why the university took so long to report a banking covenant breach to the Scottish Funding Council - something the institution is obligated to do.

Prof Gillespie admitted: “My knowledge of this is very poor. The first time I was aware of that was when I read it in the Gillies report.”

Mr Ross asked him to repeat the claim and told him he should have been on top of this as principal rather than delegating responsibility.

Did you use your position to fund your lifestyle?

Mr Briggs pointed out that auditors had found £87,000 of the former principal’s expenses did not comply with university policy. Prof Gillespie said: “That’s news to me.”

Mr Ross then said: “This is evidence on our website - we received that for us and for you to prepare, did you not look at that to prepare?”

Prof Gillespie apologised for missing this detail.

Dundee University | National World

On several occasions during the evidence session, he was accused of not preparing properly for the MSPs, particularly as he did not watch the evidence session the previous day.

Mr Briggs also disputed Prof Gillespie’s rejection that he used his position to fund his lifestyle and his expenses were “all first-class travel and top hotels”.

The former principal defended his expenses, saying many of the hotels were secured at a “corporate discount rate” with a “favourable price”.

Were your overseas trips value for money?

Prof Gillespie spent £7,000 on a trip to Hong Kong, including £4,723 on business class flights while another senior staff member was forced to travel in premium economy.

Prof Gillespie defended this as one student coming to Dundee from Hong Kong would bring £20,000 to the university. He also said there was an agreement that he would travel business class on long-haul flights.

Did you ignore Wendy Alexander?

In the previous day’s evidence session, it was suggested Baroness Alexander was offered incentives such as a trip to North America to leave her job as vice-principal after clashing with Prof Gillespie.

He said this was “false” and that he did not know about the disagreement until he read Baroness Alexander’s evidence to the Holyrood committee. He also said the suggestion she had been “sidelined” and paid-off was “simply a misrepresentation” that he “found difficult to hear”.

Baroness Wendy Alexander, former vice-principal at Dundee University, pictured in 2008. | Danny Lawson/Press Association

Did you demand a knighthood was secured for you?

Mr Briggs claimed Prof Gillespie said “I want one” after Sir Peter Mathieson, the principal of Edinburgh University, was given a knighthood from King Charles III.

Prof Gillespie said: “I may have said it in humour at some point - ‘wouldn’t it be nice to have one’. But that is far away from saying ‘I want one’. That’s very, very different.”

He denied asking others to lobby for an honour on his behalf.

Were you too ambitious with spending?

Prof Gillespie said: “We spent more cash than we could afford and more cash than I expected us to spend.

“With the benefit of hindsight, some of that was over-ambitious.”

He also said it was “not true” to suggest he rejected and resisted calls for redundancies and said the reality was “quite the opposite, I was pushing for it”.

He said: “It’s still a great university with many challenges.”

Mr Ross said the challenges were “caused by you” and added: “It will continue to be a great university in spite of your time in charge.”