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Mumbai attacks: Was computer expert aged 36 the mastermind?

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Security expert Dr Ian Kearns on the Mumbai attacks
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Published Date: 28 November 2008
UNCERTAINTY is a key weapon in the armoury of Islamic fundamentalist terror. As investigators, experts and analysts grope for the truth, someone somewhere is taking satisfaction from the horrified confusion the Mumbai attacks have caused.
Analysts are divided over whether the hand of al-Qaeda can be detected. The only claim of responsibility comes from a group that may not even exist: an e-mail message claiming responsibility and sent to Indian media on Wednesday night said the attackers were from a group called Deccan Mujahideen.

Deccan is a neighborhood of the Indian city of Hyderabad. The word also describes the central and southern region of India, which is dominated by the Deccan Plateau. Mujahideen is the commonly used Arabic word for holy warriors.

But Sajjan Gohel, a security expert in London, called it a "front name" and said the group was "nonexistent."

Alex Neill, head of the Royal United Services Institute's Asia security programme, believes the attacks were probably carried out by local jihadists linked to the radical Students Islamic Movement of India (Simi), a banned Islamic fundamentalist organisation which advocates the "liberation of India" by converting it to an Islamic state.

One possible mastermind and Simi member is Abdul Subhan Qureshi, a 36-year-old computer engineer suspected of being behind multiple bombings in Delhi, Jaipur, Bangalore and Ahmedabad earlier this year.

Qureshi, also known as Tauqeer, is from Mumbai and his expertise with internet security could have played a vital part in pulling off such an ambitious plot, said Mr Neill.

"He is an IT whizz-kid so it is quite possible he is the person investigators will be concentrating on. This is a great embarrassment to the Indian security services because it has been pulled off right under their noses."

Simi has declared jihad on India, the aim of which is to establish Dar-ul-Islam (land of Islam) by forcefully converting everyone to Islam.

Mr Neill said Deccan Muhajideen would be a militant offshoot of Simi which has carried out attacks across India. He added: "The perpetrators have obviously been highly trained and would have been sent to al-Qaeda training camps to prepare. I would be astonished if any of them are from Britain – they were probably recruited from the Mumbai region."

He reckons up to 100 terrorists would have been involved in the planning and execution of the attack and said it was surprising they had managed to keep it a secret.

Other analysts say that while it is not clear whether the Deccan Mujahideen claim is genuine, the attacks may have been carried out by a group called the Indian Mujahideen – also an offshoot of Simi and blamed by police for almost every major bomb attack in India, including explosions on commuter trains in Mumbai two years ago that killed 187 people.

Police said the Indian Mujahideen may also include former members of Bangladeshi militant group, Harkat-ul-Jihad al Islami. In an e-mail in September, the group denounced Mumbai's police anti-terrorist squad (ATS), accusing them of harassing Muslims.

"If this is the degree your arrogance has reached, and if you think that by these stunts you can scare us, then let the Indian Mujahideen warn all the people of Mumbai that whatever deadly attacks Mumbaikars will face in future, their responsibility would lie with the Mumbai ATS and their guardians," it said.

The Mumbai attacks appear to have been carefully coordinated, well-planned and involved a large number of attackers. A high level of sophistication has also been a hallmark of previous attacks by the Indian Mujahideen.

The Mumbai attacks also focused clearly on tourist targets, including two luxury hotels and a famous cafe.

In May, the Indian Mujahideen made a specific threat to attack tourist sites in India unless the government stopped supporting the United States in the international arena.

The threat was made in an e-mail claiming responsibility for bomb attacks that killed 63 people in the tourist city of Jaipur. The e-mail declared "open war against India" and included the serial number of a bicycle used in one bombing.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has blamed a group with "external linkages" for the attacks. He said: "It is evident that the group which carried out these attacks, based outside the country, had come with single-minded determination to create havoc in the commercial capital of the country."

He could have been referring to either Pakistan or Bangladesh, which has also been accused by India of harbouring militant groups. Some security specialists believe there is likely to have been a degree of inspiration from, or link with, external groups allied to al-Qaeda, such as the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, which wants to see India expelled from Kashmir.

Eyewitnesses have reported hostage-takers speaking with a Kashmiri accent. However, Lashkar-e-Taiba yesterday denied any role in the Mumbai attacks.

Henry Wilkinson, a senior analyst with Janusian Security Risk Management, a London-based consultancy, said the tactics are different from the more common, post-9/11 attacks seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, but bear similar hallmarks. He said: "It's very interesting that they didn't go in using car bombs; it was more of a direct armed assault on a city. It's very reminiscent of the attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2003, when the gunmen were going around trying to find Westerners and kill them."


Defiant and resilient city with people, not symbols, at its heart

JUST last week the former United States secretary of state Henry Kissinger sat with top executives from Goldman Sachs and India's Tata group to chat about American politics in one of the Taj Hotel's many opulent meeting rooms.

Last night, that wing of the building was engulfed in flames.

Supriya Nair, a Mumbai journalist, commenting on the fire, characterised the city's celebrated resilience.

"The Taj itself has been rebuilt a couple of times after accidents and the like over the last century." he said. "This is not a city that has ever cared much for symbols. We build them all the time, they wash away, we build again. It's the people who are the bricks of the city."

How much the attacks will affect India's growth prospects in the short term is still in question.

Sharon Bamford, the chief executive of the UK India Business Council (UKIBC), said the attacks were a "wake-up call" for the Indian government on security issues, but added they will not jeopardise the multi-billion-pound trade ties between the UK and India.

She cited the case of one British businesswoman, a member of UKIBC, who was caught up in the events at the Taj hotel and had to shelter under a restaurant table for more than six hours.

"Knowing the character of our intrepid business leaders and entrepreneurs in India, I know that she will bounce back and her business will continue," Ms Bamford said.

Her confidence was echoed by Jan Masiel, a member of the European Parliament, who is visiting Mumbai with a trade delegation of eight. "I don't think this affects India's image as a good place to do business in … neither do we consider India to be an insecure or unsafe country to be in," said the Polish national, who was waiting to go back into the Taj Mahal hotel.

The attacks are "a challenge to the economic resurgence in India", said Habil Khorakiwala, the chairman of Wockhardt, an Indian pharmaceuticals company.

"The targets identified clearly demonstrate that the intention is to create panic and shatter the confidence in the minds of investors," he said.

"This war has to be fought together by all, to protect the safety of the Indian people, for economic resurgence and the growth of the Indian nation."

Britain is India's fifth-largest trading partner, and India is Britain's 18th-largest export market, its second-largest export market in the developing world after China.


MUMBAI ATTACKS: MORE COVERAGE

He looked like any student … seconds later he became the young face of terrorism

I'm safe – wealthy Briton's call home hours before he was shot dead

India: A prime target for the purveyors of terror

Kashmir a source of anger for militant Muslims

Scots may be caught in violence

Terrorism jeopardises cricket's future

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 November 2008 1:07 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: International terrorism
 
1

,

28/11/2008 00:17:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

steve's here,

china, yeah, right! 28/11/2008 01:10:14
Hey Skidmark! weeshuts ya numpty. You’re blithering on about things you have no understanding of. The only ones to blame are the sick bast@rds that pulled the trigger in the name of the "religion of peace and understanding". Keep blaming the UK and the US and you will keep missing the point, but that's never bothered you before.
3

Gina Gibson,

Wales 28/11/2008 01:24:15
#1 postmark....What about your country's illegal invasion and occupation of TIBET?
4

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 28/11/2008 01:49:30
The corpses are barely cold and already we have idiots like Skidmark 55 blaming the victims.

You have too excuse his ignorance, he was once a Canadian, but ever since the loser first moved to China and lost his virginity he has all the tact of a Shanghai streetwalker.

I would like to remind you that:

1.Islamic terror against western targets predates Iraq.

2.That they where most likely armed with Chinese made weapons.

3. That when your beloved China was struck by catastrophe recently that most people on these boards offered our sympathies rather than attacking the Chinese governments corruption that lend to the deaths of 19,000 schoolchildren in school collapses.

Maybe you can wait for the bodies to be buried before you start your victory dance, Scumbag.
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

28/11/2008 01:51:42
Silly #1. If he or she or it is bigging up China as some spotless anti imperialist force then he or she or it has conveniently failed to mention the Chinese neo imperialist project in China, never mind the land and sea grab planned for the Spratlys and - well - everywhere else, I suppose!
6

Fifi la Bonbon,

28/11/2008 01:52:51
Silly #1. If he or she or it is bigging up China as some spotless anti imperialist force then he or she or it has conveniently failed to mention the Chinese neo imperialist project in Africa, never mind the land and sea grab planned for the Spratlys and - well - everywhere else, I suppose!

I did mean Africa! But maybe I was right first time round.
7

celtic4,

USA 28/11/2008 02:05:26
#1....your comment is silly and uneducated. Read up,please, before posting?
8

Finlang,

France (and China too) 28/11/2008 02:17:23
It's tiresome to read and re-read the Iraq/Afghanistan argument as the trigger for the latest murderous deeds of cowardly Islamist scum. Check: the first attack on New York's World Trade Center (not the twin towers) happened in 1993. Who was responsible? Not the Salvation Army for sure.

There is some point to the Bush/Blair-inspired Iraq/Afghanistan business as being another weapon in the fanatics' armoury, but to keep banging on that that alone is the cause - and to simplify it further, as some posters do, by saying that pulling western troops out of either Middle Eastern hellhole above will solve the problem at a stroke - is completely disingenuous.

Most of us with a thought for our troops would have never wished them there in the first place. Let the Middle East and its vile religion rip itself apart unaided.

Islam is and always will be the problem.

9

Zeba,

USA and Israel 28/11/2008 02:41:53
This is a very sick disease all this terrorism. Our great country along with Israel and to a lesser extent our little lackey Great Britain are leading the way in removing terrorists from the world. Sure there were a few civilians killed in Iraq that's the price you have to pay for liberty. Freedom doesn't come easily, you have to work hard to achieve it. I said it before and I'll say it again, round up there degenerate terrorists and send them all to Gitmo, whip the daylights out of them and leave them to rot in hell
10

Finlang,

France (and China too) 28/11/2008 03:23:33
#9 Zeba,USA and Israel

What ignorance you display. Your reference to "... our little lackey Great Britain ..." is a cheap bloody insult to the number of UK troops who have lost their lives on the back of the Bush's Middle Eastern fiasco, aided and abetted by the wicked chancer Blair.

Your "little lackey Great Britain" (aka Tony Blair and his Foul Labour supporters) kept the likewise idiot Bush afloat at a time when European neighbours were distancing themselves from this conflagration. You portray yourself as a rather stupid person in the Bush mould. Shame on you, and a curse on the lackey poodle Blair and his "suckcessor" lapdog Brown.
11

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/11/2008 03:24:11
#8 Finlang,
Since you're the only other voice of reason on here I'll address this to you.
As I clearly stated, the US has been stirring the pot in the Middle East for over 50 years now and it's because of that very reason that al-Qaeda like terrorists are in business in the first place. If the US had always stayed on US soil none of these attacks like these or the ones like 9/11 or 7/7 would have happened if the British too had stayed home.
Please read this article again and it mentions the US specifically, I'll save you the hassle, here's the quote.
"In May, the Indian Mujahideen made a specific threat to attack tourist sites in India unless the government stopped supporting the United States in the international arena." Britain, as you know has been involved in India forever and many people there want to see all British influence done away with as well. The British slaughtered untold thousands in their colonial rule of India so this may be fall-out from that as well. These people have long memories and will stop at nothing to get revenge.
If the foreign troops pull out of the Middle East it won't be peace overnight, but in time the terrorists will concentrate on their own problems and be too busy to worry about the West.
12

Kingston,

Singapore 28/11/2008 04:23:57
No 1: If you wish to act as the apologist for these murdering cowards who attack hospitals and hotels, then you define yourself.

No 9: Your term "lackey" is an insult and reveals your ignorance and your level.
13

L. Bannerman,

The Bronx 28/11/2008 04:43:52
#9 Zeba
You people are revolting at times. Youre a disgrace to the citizens of America. Far too many innocent civilians have been tortured due to headstrong fools like you
14

Finnharp,

Canada 28/11/2008 05:41:13
#1 & #9,

your post are a disgrace. If these animals that call themselves freedom fighters (and take innocent lives), are nothing short of scum, to attack hospital, hotels and bars where innocent people are enjoying themselves for the evening is a very cowardice & sick way to get you point across.

Remember before the British or American's for that matter went over to the middle east, all these so called religious people were already killing each other, the reason for us going over in the first place.

Please read your history before you start to spout out about atrocities that have taken place over the last 10- 15 years, when you can go back 2-3 hundred years.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families of the loved one's lost, no matter what side or religion
your on.
15

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/11/2008 06:02:46
#14 Finnharp,
Thanks for backing me up on what I had stated in the first place. These people were doing it to themselves since the beginning of time but not to the Westerners, but when the Westerners decided to shove their very screwed up version of Democracy down the throats of very unwilling recipients all hell broke loose and will continue to do so until they leave. The West has no business there whatsoever and has more than its own share of problems. Why don't you take a page out of the Chinese government's book and stay at home and keep your own house in order? The West being led by the US and closely followed by the UK are no angels and are guilty of unspeakable atrocities inflicted on the innocent citizens of both Iraq and Afghanistan and they need to abandon both wars for all these horrible acts of terrorism to finally come to an end.
Remember that the war in Iraq is an illegal one and the US ignored the UN and went in anyway because Junior had a point to prove and avenge Papa and because of that the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians is happening as you're reading this.
Also try to remember that Canada wanted nothing to do with this illegal war and refused to join in and has so to this very day. If you are a true Canadian than you should respect Canada's choice and quit backing the murdering American administration.
16

,

28/11/2008 06:26:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Finnking,

Lempäälä 28/11/2008 06:34:40
Finnharp

"all these so called religious people were already killing each other, the reason for us going over in the first place."

Really? 'We' went over there to help resolve their conflicts? Great.Did 'we' succeed? No.

Also, you are saying that 'these people' (your genetic equivalents, BTW) have always been fighting and that's bad.

Have you looked at European history?Religious wars are not religious. they are all the abuse of religion by those in position of power to manipulate the masses to go to war for their gain.

Such comments as yours show the ego-centrism of current western power (duly regurgitated by a herd member, intact, from the Dept. of Information that currently serves as western media).

Due to all the wars in Europe, should the Iranians get on the Persian Man's Burden bandwagon and come to our rescue, too?

Or is 'your' moral plinth higher than 'theirs'?

The opposite is true.
18

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 07:03:14
This incident in Mumbai is a civil war occurring in a separate country from us. I don't understand why we have to take sides in it. Our only interest should be in safeguarding our citizens.
19

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 28/11/2008 07:24:26
#17Finnking LaLaLand,

I would like to remind you that Islamic Terrorism against those that do not share their faith dates from its founding (Massacre of Medina).

You have certainly got to brush up on your weapons recognition, all the TV footage show idiots in Black T-Shirts carrying Chinese Made AK-47's.

Your obsession with "Herd members" indicates to me that either you are a reindeer herdsman or English is not your first language. Perhaps its Arabic?And your refering to the goat herds of your youth, before your bogus refugee claim?

I would like to critique the rest of what you have written, but it is so tainted with political diatribe it is difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps I should invest in an English-Trotskyist dictionairy.

#15 Skidmark 55

"Also try to remember that Canada wanted nothing to do with this illegal war and refused to join in and has so to this very day. "

I am sure that the families of the 3 Canadians who where killed will find that a great comfort.Idiot!




20

overton,

aberdeen 28/11/2008 07:46:56
A friendly wee quote from the holy book:

"Fight them till all opposition ends and only our doctrine rules. If you meet anyone who disagrees with us in battle, inflict on them such a defeat as would be a lesson for those who come after them, that they may be warned. Slaughter those who disagree with us wherever you find them. Lie in wait for them. They are specimens of foolishness. Punish them so that our superior dogma and leader can put them to shame. If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom we have a treaty, retaliate by breaking it off. Those who do not think like us should know that they cannot bypass our doctrine. Surely they cannot get away. Fight them until they pay a heavy tax in submission to us; how perverse are they. Our leader and his doctrine will damn them. For anyone who offends our leader or opposes our doctrine will receive a painful punishment. We will burn them alive. So prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster, that you may strike terror in the enemies of our cause!"

PBUH
21

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 07:49:35
#20 Is that the Bush Doctrine?
22

Mcsnagpile,

28/11/2008 08:46:03
Many people in the UK are now getting fed up with its radical citizens. Why should all the UK be penalized by massive security at airports and international terrorism etc? The terrorists can be easily pinpointed. Politicians may not want to polarize our society,, but the public may do just that by voting in political parties that will get these issues off their backs. Iraq invaded Kuwait and tried to take over the Middle East. There are still factions that would disrupt the entire world. The Taliban had large training camps for international terrorism and zero tolerance to anybody that did not meet their dictates. The destruction of the stone Buddha should their utter contempt for all other than themselves.
23

common sense voice,

28/11/2008 08:58:30
they need a danmed good slap.....

but look at the right's we give them in good ole GB... they must think we're mad...
24

Pinaki,

Bangalore, India 28/11/2008 09:13:05
#18

Terrorism has no borders. What has happened today in Mumbai might tomorrow happen in your city too!

So wake up and join the War Against Terror! Fast! Before its too late for you
25

Finnking,

Lempäälä 28/11/2008 09:30:56
KampungHighlander

Religious battles: Do you agree with my point that wars in teh name of Christianity/Judaism/whatever are equally prevalent and equally awful? Or do you only focus your ire on Islam?

I couldn't care less about where these clowns got their weapons from. That wasn't my point. But, now uou mention it, please tell me exactly how you can determine the country of manufacture of an AK-47. Are they any different to the AK47 manufactured and sold by Israel? Do you condemn all weapon sales to crazy people (Suharto?) or do you focus your ire on China alone?

The use of the term 'herd' to describe the "bewildered masses" (another one for you), is quite commonly used in the English language. You just have to read widely to find it.

My first language was transitional Doric, my second English. You write, "Perhaps its Arabic?"...Arabic? Ah, yes, I understand now. Anyone who opposes western terrorism against the Arab/persian world is an Arab, in your eyes. Very odd.

BTW: "Perhaps its Arabic?"--apostrophe in the contracted form should be used. So, how does it go? Oh, yes...."So, in view of how you omit the apostrophe I can only assume that you are a numpty."

Standard racist drivel, KampungHighlander. Bog standard regurgitation of the bull that's been drilled into your head. "Herd"...Google it one day.
26

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/11/2008 09:45:43
#19 KampungHighlander,
Did you overlook Canada's presence in Afghanistan intentionally or are you one to miss these obvious things?
And just because you couldn't cut it here in China doesn't mean that you have to hate China but rather look at your own shortcomings and figure out why you hate China so much. I've been here a little over three years now and I love it more every day. I'm now married to a Chinese woman and we are expecting a baby this coming January.
China is a very good country now and and it has made great strides in improving the lives of all, and yes that includes our province of Tibet.
And China stays at home and keeps its own house in order, that can't be said for many Western countries.
27

Scimitar1,

Not Glasgow 28/11/2008 10:38:37
According to the leading counterintelligence expert Evan Kohlmann and most analysts, the Pakistani islamic terrorist group - Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) is behind it from the Kashmer region.

http://counterterrorismblog.org/

I expect the burgeoning "Scottish" muslim community will remain quiet about the latest attrocity from the religion of peace given that the security forces know that £50,000 is being sent from Glasgow(istan) every month to feed Kashmir terrorist groups. They use mortgage scams and fake counterfeit products sold in across Scotland as a source of their nefarious trade. Our dimmitude police and media will do nothing about the +50 known Pakistani's involved in it.How a small country stuck in the far corner of Europe ever got itself involved in this is almost beyond comprehension. The political class in this country have lot to answer for.
Quote

"Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM),(..)It is estimated that up to £50,000 a month is raised in Scotland. As well as money from mortgage fraud, around £15,000 of this total is raised by selling counterfeit DVDs, CDs and clothing at market stalls and in pubs and clubs across Scotland.(..)MI5 sources say around 50 Scots Asians – most of them in Glasgow – are raising funds for Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), a Kashmiri separatist group responsible for hundreds of deaths and reportedly involved in the kidnap and murder of American journalis."
"

Link - Published Date: 23 December 2007
By Richard Elias

SOS - ( note the over emphasis on Scots/Scottish for these Kashmir Pakistani's)

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/internationalterrorism/Counterfeit-DVD-gang-funds-.3616379.jp



28

Kenny A,

Cape Coast 28/11/2008 10:44:46
Untill blame can be established I am not going to blame the Islamics.

However I am prepared to do so. In the name of Allah the compasionate, just and merciful, they took away a friend of mine of more than 30 years, left his wife and three childern alone, and he was a Muslim.

Not a lot else to say.
29

Oor Waleed,

Dar ul Drookit 28/11/2008 11:34:47
Postmark 55

Thanks for your entertaining posts. I have rarely seen such creative stupidity, and when it is in such a condensed form it is particularly entertaining:

"China is a very good country now and and it has made great strides in improving the lives of all, and yes that includes our province of Tibet."

coupled with

"Why don't you take a page out of the Chinese government's book and stay at home and keep your own house in order? "


30

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 28/11/2008 11:39:36
Received a very interesting treatise written by a German Psychiatrist Emanuel Tanay MD, it says it all about extremists and the extremism which is blighting our lives at present. It explains perfectly the situation we are in now.It is more than worth a read.
Postmark-55. Your phobic anti-American stance is embarrassing.It shows your mother or some close member of the family must have been defiled by a yank for you to be so one-eyed on the subject.It makes the things you say about China highly suspect in the eyes of others. Stick to what you have some knowledge of and perhaps folk will listen to you with a little more sympathy.Having served alongside Americans in North Africa and Germany, even living on an American Base for 4months.Served in a joint Brit/Canadian Unit in Germany too.So I am quite conservant with Canadian and Americans,both from a work and social point of view!My Canadian friends would be totally embarrassed with the stance you take on terrorism.You are like it or not (Read Emanuel Tanay and then contradict me),a passive terrorist sympathiser and the Chinese will NOT look kindly on that at all.You are applying for citizenship? If I were you I would moderate your stance on terrorism if you wish to succeed.
31

Pinaki,

Bangalore, India 28/11/2008 11:45:18
@ POSTMARK,-55, Made in China

It seems you do really have a sense of hatered against anything which is non-Chinese - please correct me if I am wrong and if I am not - why is it so??
32

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/11/2008 11:47:07
#30 Oor Waleed,
Happy to entertain you, any time.
It's also amazing how receptive you are.
By being in Tibet we are staying at home, for Tibet is a legal province of ours, check any up to date map.
Can you say the same about your presence in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Now go away and enjoy your lunch, don't want it getting cold now would you?
Oh I forgot, you're a brownbagger with stale sandwiches and rotten apples being the only contents of your lunchbag.
33

Oor Waleed,

Dar ul Drookit 28/11/2008 11:56:44
Postmark 55

Are you Chinese? If so, which of the 50 (or so) ethnic groups do you belong to?

PS We'll be out of Iraq within a year. Afghanistan, probably three.
34

POSTMARK,-55,

China, 28/11/2008 12:04:03
#31 Dragonhead,
If I want your opinion, I'll ask for it.
You're biased because the military has paid your bills all your life and you kiss up to the Americans because you're a natural bootlicker and you're an embarrassment to all the Kiwis out there.
What I have pointed out in the articles is indeed fact but to the real terrorist appeasers like yourself, yes you support the American administration who are guilty of the world's worst acts of terrorism, it flies in your very face to be told the truth.
I am 100% against any kind of terrorism and I have clearly pointed that out on many occasions. You're only against Islamic terrorism which makes you a biased and bigoted fool. All terrorism is wrong, regardless who's behind it but you back the Americans because they have the strongest military and you shake in your spit polished boots when you think they might come after you. Be a real man and walk away from all wars, nobody wins ANY wars, absolutely nobody.
Now stay tucked in at Dalian, it's a cold evening.
35

Finnharp,

28/11/2008 12:43:29
There you have it poster #1 has been removed good choice Scotman. After reading all the posts again there has yet to be another poster sending their sympathy to families of all these families that will be having a Christmas they will never forget.

Again my hopes and prayers go out to them all, no matter what religion or political view.
36

Corstorphine Jambo,

EDINBURGH 28/11/2008 13:08:04
Postmark 55

My wife and I returned from a marvellous holiday in China last month and greatly appreciated the welcome of the Chinese people. However, to say that China sticks within its own borders and does not interfere abroad is simply not true. China is heavily involved in Africa, for example, and is trying to extend its influence in that continent. Unfortunately, it appears to be a human trait that we stick our noses in where it's not welcomed. And I'm afraid this includes China.
37

Finnharp,

28/11/2008 13:12:08
poster #37, Good & Valid Point, we are all human and cannot just sit on the sidelines doing nothing when we feel wecan better a situation. However sometimes our countries have an agenda.
38

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 28/11/2008 13:18:18
#18 Newton

Your sense of proportion is skewed.

This is more than a "civil war" and happening in a "separate country from us". And who are "our citizens"?

This is a terroristic and Islamist attack on freedom and democracy and the right to life and liberty and your posting does nothing to enhance your reputation here as an intelligent poster. How can you be so blinkered and uninformed?

Perhaps you could tell us from what country you are posting so that we can know where you went terribly wrong in that country to engender such simplistic and ignorant views?

And since you don't want to "take sides" in these events which have worldwide repercussions, perhaps you could reserve your wacky observations for other blogs that cater to such as you.
39

,

28/11/2008 13:40:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

,

28/11/2008 13:47:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
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41

,

28/11/2008 14:06:48
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42

Paul's Place,

Limbo 28/11/2008 15:05:01
It's amazing how all these genius folks become terrorists and serial killers
43

MichScot,

USA 28/11/2008 15:49:10
It's time that everyone realizes that they clearly tell us their goal: world domination in the name of Allah and his religion. If our leaders would admit it, then at least we would know our enemy and have an inkling about what we are up against.
44

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 16:59:17
#39
'This is more than a "civil war" and happening in a "separate country from us". And who are "our citizens"?'

I'm in Scotland so 'our citizens' are my fellow Scots. That's pretty straightforward. What's not so clear is who you think the enemy is supposed to be? Terrorism? Islamists? It's equally absurd to declare war on an abstract noun as it is to declare the people of an entire religion as guilty for the crimes of a few of it's adherents.
Sectarian conflict has being going on in India for years. It would be ridiculous for us to try and take sides or offer up any solution. All that has happened this week is that people of this country have been caught in the cross-fire.
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28/11/2008 18:36:44
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Finnharp,

Canada 28/11/2008 19:37:56
Although I am not Jewish, it saddens me that a Rabbi and his wife were killed leaving a 2 year old baby, how sad. Like 911 so many innocent lives lost for what, and I know that many lives are lost every day all over our globe, but these guy chose to end these peoples lives.

Sad is'nt it.
47

Phillip,

in hiding out of fear of the Muslim Terror 28/11/2008 19:44:03
As a student of medieval history, I greatly admired many of the accomplishments of medieval Islamic society. It was far in advance of Europe in terms of social tolerance, science, architecture, philosophy and so much more.

However as my studies deepened I moved further back in time and began to focus on late Antiquity. I grew sad when I realized that medieval Islam was the exception and not the rule. Early Islam was as violent, hateful, bigoted, racist and intolerant and modern Islam. It is not a wonder that many in the Islamic world look with shame on the medieval practices. It is considered a time of decadence when people slipped away from the faith.

After reading the Koran, studying the hadiths and trying to understand what was at the core of Islam I came to the sad conclusion that it isn't really a religion of peace at all.

The only Peace in Islam is the peace of absolute submission to their vision. The only Peace they can accept is for everyone to become Muslim. There is no middle ground. There can be no accomodation.

Mohammed divided the world into two houses. One was the House of Islam, which is where Islam holds power. The other is the House of War. All other peoples reside in the House of War and it is the duty of Islam to fight, conquer and destroy all others. It is put very plainly in the Koran. The only minor exceptions are that Christians and Jews can exist as long as they don't try to spread their faith, pay absurdly heavy taxes and allow the Muslims to hold all power.

Unlike Christianity, Bhuddism, or the other great religions, Islam was spread not by discussion and expressions of faith. Islam was spread by the sword. Warriors spread out from Arabia, conquered what we now know as the Islamic world and forced all of the residents to convert. That is not peaceful.

It is impossible to coexist with Islam because Islam has never wanted to coexist. It is a religion of war against all non-muslims. Until we realize this, w
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 20:05:33
#48 Well it's hardly surprising that racists like you will use this opportunity to outline your own hateful vision.
Why is it that when the nutters are muslims, it's Islam that's to blame, yet you don't blame christianity as a whole whenever some crazy christian goes on a killing rampage.
We're never going to understand the local issues that are involved in these events in India, but you will always get those who attempt to project their own personal grievances onto it for their own sinister ends.
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Lynne,

28/11/2008 21:00:04
#48..Phillip..Every time Zawahiri makes a video tape or an audio message he is warning people to embrace Islam...OR ELSE..you are totally right about the Islamic jihadists and their agenda.
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 21:33:08
#49 - I'm not a racist at all. I even considered converting to Islam when I was studying Medieval Islam.

What I came to realize is that there is a vast difference between the religious violence that we see perpetrated by Christians or others and the religious violence perpetrated by Muslims.

If we look at the Crusades, or the Inquisition, or the Troubles in Ireland, or the other Christian religious wars, not a single one of them are actually in agreement with the Bible. Christ never told anyone to go out and engage in violence. Christ told people to turn the other cheek. Christ gave us a religion peace. Stupid mortals decided to engage in violence and then tried to make themselves feel better by saying it was in the name of Christ.

However every single one of those who went out and committed an act of violence dishonored Christ's Holy Name and sinned in the worse possible way against God.

Christianity is at its heart a true religion of peace.

Islam is something entirely different. From the beginning it was a religion of war and violence. The Prophet Mohammed led armies into battle, slaughtering those who refused to accept his visions as the Word of God. He commanded his followers at the time and in the future to continue to struggle of violence until all the world was forced into submission. Violence rings out constantly throughout the Koran.

It's not racist to point out historical truth. It is insanity to ignore that truth at your own peril. Our enlightment philosophical background makes us wish to see all religions as equal; all people as equal; and all people capable of living together in harmony.

That is a wonderful vision but it only works if everyone accepts the same basic groundrules first. Islam refuses to accept those ground rules. They will attack us until we have agreed to accept their religion. Our surrender is the only outcome they will accept.

The longer we ignore that the more innocent lives will be lost. It
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 21:33:39
CONTINUED...

It is wrong to kill them or mistreat them because they are Muslim. But it is just as wrong to allow them to run around harming others.

When an individual is incapable of controlling him or herself and will cause harm to themselves and others, society has decided that it is best for them to be taken away to either a criminal or mental institution for their protection and the protection of others.

Similarly, it is impossible for us to be certain that any given muslim will not decide to engage in this violent behaviour. We have seen how prominent physicians who are well regarded in society can suddenly engage in terror attacks as they did at the Glasgow airport. We have also seen young people who have grown up as muslims in the middle of a Western Society turn into terrorists as well. As a religion, Islam is incapable of living peacefully with others. Therefore, the only solution is to move all muslims back into the traditional Muslim dominated lands of North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Southeast Asia. They must not be allowed to travel into other parts of the world. They must not be allowed to leave those borders. Nor can they be allowed to immigrate. To protect them from the desire to kill themselves in the hope of martyrdom while murdering innocent civilians, and to protect innocents from these senseless terror attacks, the entire religion must be segregated into their own portion of the globe.

It sounds horrible, but it is for our mutual safety.
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POSTMARK--55,

28/11/2008 21:39:47
#15 & #40 is a troll. If you see my ID with a "Comma" it's a troll impersonating me.
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Boab,

28/11/2008 21:49:34
It's wrong to think of Al Qaeda as a single entity like the IRA. It's a loose affiliation of terrorists across different territories; figures like Bin Laden are only organizers and financiers. It's a 'brand', if you like. So, talking about defeating it is pretty futile; as with most long-term conflicts, you can only keep it in check and look for political solutions.

#51 Phillip: typical Islamophobe post. Funny how everyone's an Islamic scholar thanks to the internet.

Funny, I just read a big history of Christianity, and apparently they left mountains of corpses everywhere they went. Guess that just leaves athiests like me, Stalin and Pol Pot.
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 22:02:46
#54,

You miss my point entirely. People claiming to be Christians have done horrible damage. But the evil they did was totally contrary to what is taught in the Bible.

When the Islamic Terrorists kill innocents it is not only supported by their holy Koran but encouraged by it.

That is the big difference.

And I don't consider myself an Islamic scholar thanks to the Internet. I consider myself a medieval scholar thanks to a PhD from Harvard and my focus was on the cultural interactions in the Mediterranean.

Try sitting down and reading the Koran, you will be absolutely horrified by the violence that is glorified and supported within those pages.

Christianity, Hinduism, Judaeism, even Atheism have a chance at redemption because there is nothing within their beliefs that REQUIRES violence against anyone.

Islam is unique in that it REQUIRES the violent elimination of all others from the Earth. Many more secular muslims may choose not to engage in such a struggle, but that doesn't change the fact that it is there in the teachings of Mohammed. Sadly, those secular muslims are enablers for the terrorists because their charitable donations are often used to support families decimated by a loved one's choice to become a suicide bomber. Or the donations bestow legitimacy on terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah by allowing them to engage in charitable works like schools and hospitals. Even the Nazi's ran soup kitchens.

Also, I find it interesting that in Western Society, it is perfectly okay to attack Christianity and one is not called a racist, a bigot or a "Christophobe." Yet when I state simple historical facts that are easily verified by going to your local library, you chose to brand me an Islamophobe and another calls me a racist.
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Shamus,

Glasgow 28/11/2008 22:29:48
Islamaphobia as a medical term does not exist. Has anyone been diagnosed with it. Islam does exist that is a fact. It could be a mental illness such is the violence.
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 22:35:22
#55
You're joking-Have you ever read the bible-it's totally nuts! It contains genocide, incest, murder, and ethnic cleansing with the apparent approval of 'god'. Anyone who follows it to the letter is a total lunatic. Most christians however don't. Most have never read the bible in it's entirety and would be shocked probably to see some of what it contains.
The point is, to lay the guilt of the crimes committed by a small number of muslims at the door of all muslims is a racist and stupid thing to do-so don't do it.
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 22:50:49
#57, Yes I, I have read the Bible. What you are calling NUTS is all in the Old Testament. Christ tells us specifically that his followers ARE NOT TO FOLLOW the Old Testament. That was the covenant of the Jews. Christians are called to a New Covenant through Christ that has nothing in common with the violance and ethnic cleansing of the Old Testament.

Christ specifically tells us that the Chosen People will be amazed and shocked at the Day of Judgement when people of all nations are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven because they have accepted the way of Christ.

This was reinforced by the First Council of Jerusalem which was held by the Apostles themselves as well as other leaders of the early Church such as St. Paul. At that Council those who had known Christ personally reiterated that the Laws of the Old Testament were no longer in force and that Christians were to follow only the teachings of the Gospels. Within the Gospels is all that is needed. After that Council the other Books that we now consider part of the New Testament were written - all of the Letters from Paul, Peter etc. The meaning of Christ is to be found in the Gospels. And before you go blathering on about how the Gospels weren't written back then, you will find that such an argument has already been abandoned by all but the most rabid of anti-Christians. Archeological evidence has already been uncovered showing that not only was the Gospel of St. Matthew in written form by the end of the 1st Century, but it had been copied and distributed as far away as Egypt.

Only Christian Fundamentalists claim that we need to follow the Old Testament and they are doing so in direct contradiction of the words of Christ and the examples of the Apostles.

And the Crimes of Islam are the Crimes of All Muslims because it is a Crime that is LAID OUT IN DETAIL AND PLANNED WITH FORETHOUGH IN THEIR KORAN BY THEIR PROPHET!

It's not racist. Racism is the hatred of on particular ethnic/racial group
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 22:52:31
Islam is not a racial group. Muslims come from every racial and ethnic group.

Islam is a religion.

And remember, if someone converts away from Christianity or simply abandons their faith then the worst thing that can happen is for the person to be dropped from the church directory.

If someone dares to leave Islam, the only punishment allowed by the Prophet Mohammed is the death penalty.

That is not a religion of peace.

And if you want to lay the crimes of the Old Testament at someone's feet. Go talk to the Jews. That's their covenant.
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 22:55:12
I think we can all agree that Newton_Invented_Gravity suffers from that all to common ailment found most commonly in Western Liberals (frequently Athiests). It is known as Christohypochondrism. It is a mental illness characterized by the dillusion that all of the worlds problems can be directly traced to Christianity and Western Civilization alone. All other religions, groups and ethnicities are as pure as the driven snow and cannot possibly be held accountable for their failings or actions.

All blame in the world can only be attached to White Western Christians.
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 22:58:55
#60 "It is a mental illness characterized by the dillusion that all of the worlds problems can be directly traced to Christianity and Western Civilization alone."

interesting theory philip. Please could you point out where I have actually said that.
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 23:02:51
'Christians are called to a New Covenant through Christ that has nothing in common with the violance and ethnic cleansing of the Old Testament.'

Except in every edition of the Christian 'Holy Bible' that I have seen, the old Testament is included. It would be rather strange to do that if Christians weren't in some way to regard it as an authority wouldn't it? Oh sure, you can find some quote that says that Christians aren't supposed to follow it, but then again you'll find all kinds of wacky and contradictory things in the bible that can back up just about anything you care to believe.
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

28/11/2008 23:24:11
'You miss my point entirely. People claiming to be Christians have done horrible damage. But the evil they did was totally contrary to what is taught in the Bible.

When the Islamic Terrorists kill innocents it is not only supported by their holy Koran but encouraged by it.

That is the big difference.
'

Have to laugh at the total absurdity of this. I'm sure that 'big' difference is a great consolation to all those who've suffered at the hands of christian fanatics. All this really tells us is that man has always been inhumane to his fellow man, regardless of what race or religion he was of-and will always find ways of justifying his actions to himself.
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Phillip,

28/11/2008 23:56:24
#62, The Old Testament has been and will always be included in editions of the Holy Bible because without it, it is impossible to make sense of Christianity. How is one to understand the many ways in which it was prophesied that Christ would come if the books in which that prophesy is written are not included? How is one to understand the special nature of the Jews as God's Chosen People if there was no Old Testament?

It is absolutely essential background material. And it's not just some random quote that forces one to understand the Old Testament as so much background material. They are the very words of Christ himself and the decisions of the most authoritative of all Church Councils, the very first over which presided Peter, leader of the Apostles.

And you still don't get it. I am the first to admit that horrible people have tried to justified their cruel, evil and inhumane actions by saying that they did it in the name of Christianity. However, when those actions are in direct contradition to the holy scripture we cannot take that claim seriously. We have to acknowledge that they were sinners and that their actions are vile and worthy of punishment.

Islam is totally different. Such violent evil is not only supported by the Koran, it is considered a duty of a true muslim. And those cowardly acts of terrorism are not roundly condemned by muslim society. Instead the terrorists are considered heroes and martyrs for the faith. Their lives are celebrated and their families rewarded.

There just is no equating the violence inherent in Islam from the beginning and the peace that is at the heart of the Christian message.

Let me put it very plainly for you. A person who acts in a violent way and calls himself a Christian is not really a Christian at all. By definition he cannot be a Christian because he as ignored and violated the teachings of Christ.
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29/11/2008 01:15:50
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 29/11/2008 01:24:35
#53,
You are the troll and #15 and #40 and the rest with the POSTMARK,-55 are indeed my opinions and you need to get a life.
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 29/11/2008 02:58:18
#31 Dragonhead,
I oppose all terrorism, regardless of who the guilty party is.
If you associate with any given country strictly through business deals and economic co-operation then you're not supporting that country's terrorizing of other countries. If you take up arms however and fight alongside that terrorizing country or give them your moral and financial support, you've just crossed the line and you leave yourself wide open to these type of attacks.
That doesn't make me an appeaser or apologizer but rather a realist who tells you the way it is and what you can expect if you continue down the same road. Your problem is that you're a military man and yes man and are used to taking orders and haven't got the ability to think for yourself but rather echo your so called superiors demands and commands. You like to settle everything with force rather than negotiations and common sense and without your military issued weapons you really are lost. You thrive when someone barks out orders to you for it gives you a sense of direction, without those directions, once again, you're lost.
Now go out and enjoy the sunshine Dalian is experiencing this morning and maybe you won't be such a miserable old goat any more.:)))
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Lynne,

29/11/2008 03:41:27
What is disgraceful and repulsive is you lying to all these people about me. I have but 1 ID... which I have had for 2 years or longer. I do work, for my husband, in his office. As the wife of the OWNER of the company, I CAN take the time to break up my day, and post. (Don't you wish you had a job that you could that too?).
What's your excuse? So far I count 3 or 4 of you and your aliases. Tell the people who YOU are... all the names YOU use. I have told the truth... Now YOU can lie to them.
And this is the last time I defend my self to you or your other aliases. We are waiting for your reply.
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Lynne,

29/11/2008 03:44:39
We..meaning all of the other posters here. I know you would take that remark out of context, so I'll clear it up now.
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29/11/2008 03:55:53
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Lynne,

29/11/2008 04:12:25
the game, Rat Boy is over for you... this is the last time.. no more.. say what you want.. those that want to believe you will, those that don't believe you, won't.
You proved me right by taking the remark.. that I had already cleared up and twisting it, yet again, to fit your agenda.
I am through with you. I will no longer answer you, You are not worth the time and effort. You have proven yourself to be an a** of the highest magnitude.
The End.. go look for a boyfriend to make yourself happy.
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29/11/2008 04:28:40
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

29/11/2008 08:33:12
'How is one to understand the special nature of the Jews as God's Chosen People if there was no Old Testament?'

Right, so about two thirds of the bible is taken up by the OT just to make that point? A couple of lines in the NT would have sufficed to have made that point. So you're a christian who doesn't acknowledge as an authority a massive part of the Holy Bible: That seems less bizarre in the light of your idea that we should blame all muslims for the actions of a few.
it doesn't really matter what is written in a holy book-it's what people actually do that matters. As far as I know Jews don't sell their daughters into slavery or kill their children for being insolent. I don't know that many christians who really think that it's as hard for a rich man to enter heaven as for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Holy books are best unread imo. Probably the people who read them most are a religions enemys who trawl through them looking for ammunition.
Personally I don't care what the Koran says. I'm sure most muslims are just as capable of ignoring any daft bits in it as christians and jews are of ignoring the daft bits in their bibles.
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Shamus,

Glasgow 29/11/2008 18:29:33
78# How do you explain the muslim brotherhood. Started up to prevent equal righs and preserve the muslim dictator status quo after the 1st World War especially when Turkish women were being liberated. They have been murdering for decades long before the Palestinian issue. You are an apologist. Palestine is the red herring put about for what Islam is all about.
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Phillip,

29/11/2008 20:45:09
#75, now we see your true colors.

You truely hate Christianity and all other religions.

Just as I suspected, you think that if it is Western and Christian than it is to blame for all of the world's problems.

Such self-loathing must be difficult to maintain.

And I didn't say that the Old Testament was ONLY there to explain the place of the Jews as the 1st Covenant. It is also there to provide a history of faith AND MOST IMPORTANTLY to provide us with the prophesies which foretold the coming of Jesus Christ.

I also find it interesting that you can claim to be an expert on Christianity and yet refuse to acknowledge the basic tenets of that faith as binding. You would damn all Christians for the acts of sinners acting outside the definition of Christianity and the teachings of Christ.

At the same time you excuse muslims for the violent actions of those who are simply carrying out the orders of their self-proclaimed Prophet Mohammed.

Hmm, let's see... If I ignore Christian teachings and the words of Christ then I must be an example of how all Christians really are. But if I do exactly what the Koran tells me to do, then I must not be a good muslim.

Ignore the Gospels = Christian
Follow the Koran = Not a Muslim

No matter what you athiests and muslim-apologists say, it is not possible to extricate Islam from the violence that is preached in the Koran.

The Gospels do not preach violence, the Koran does.
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Lynne,

30/11/2008 01:45:14
#78 Muslim Terror began long before the state of Israel

www.mapsofwar.com/images/Religion
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30/11/2008 02:20:22
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

30/11/2008 10:13:50
#80 'You truely hate Christianity and all other religions.

Just as I suspected, you think that if it is Western and Christian than it is to blame for all of the world's problems.'

There you go again, putting words into my mouth. It's pointless telling lies about what I think Phillip, since everyone can see what it is that I have actually written. You will simply end up looking foolish.
Clearly you think that being a christian is better than being a muslim-(Albeit a christian that doesn't recognise two thirds of the Holy Bible: presumably that's why you don't follow the commandment 'thou must not lie'!) Well I'd expect a christian to think that. I'd expect a muslim to think that islam is better. What people like me who adhere to neither hope is that both your sides can simply agree to disagree so that the rest of us can live in peace.
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Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 30/11/2008 11:29:26
A correction to my comments on Dr Emanuel Tanay and his article. I have just seen the article again with a comment that he used the article and someone else added his name to it! The article was in fact written in 2006 by a gentleman by the name of PAUL E MAREK. His Grandparents fled from Czechoslovakia and he now resides in Saskatoon, Canada.
I see that your tone has mellowed a little Postmark-55?
Your picture of "an Army man" doesn't fit me in any shape or form. "Me a yes man"? Hahahaha! As for not being able to think for myself.Your views on soldiers is as risible as your comments about me. How many languages do you speak my friend? As for being bigoted.My friends include people from all over the world,of every colour,class and creed.For the ones I revile,it is not who they are which offends me,it is what they do which offends me!
Read the article by your fellow countryman Paul E Marek.It speaks far more sense than you do.

inrepair.net/2008/01/20why-the-peaceful-majority-is-irrelevant

You are irrelevant!
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POSTMARK,-55,

China, 30/11/2008 12:35:53
#84 Dragonhead,
To start things off, thanks for a link that doesn't work, is this your idea of a joke, or just proves that you're full of sh!t?
Second, My tone hasn't mellowed one bit it's just that you aren't too perceptive, again because you've taken orders from the military all your life and self thought is heavily frowned upon. I speak three languages fluidly but Chinese isn't one of them, but I'm learning ever so slowly, too many damn dialects here to confuse me. Where you live Putonghua is on the main course much more than the places where I've lived and it's a struggle to say the least.
You may not be bigoted but you have a slanted view on terrorism if you support the Americans in what they are doing as we speak. They are equally as guilty as the Islamic extremists in their acts of terrorism against the innocent in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I on the other hand don't condone any kind of terrorism carried out by anybody, that my friend is the biggest difference between you and I.

I hope that IS relevant.
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Phillip,

30/11/2008 20:50:50
#83 - I have never lied in this discussion. I have given my opinion of your obvious bias.

I and others stated truthes about Islam and you chose to attack Christianity. I have attempted to defend Christianity against your false accusations and point out the difference between Christianity and Islam since you have been intent on claiming that Christianity is at least as bad if not worse than Islam.

As for the claim that I feel Christianity is better than Islam - it is partially true. I feel that any of the world's religions are better than Islam because all of the other world religions are capable of living together in peaceful coexistence. It is only Islam that feels the need to exterminate all other religions by the force of Arms.

Other Religions = Peace = Good
Islam = Violence = Bad

All non-muslims are the victims and action must be taken to protect us from this menace to world peace and stability.
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nazim786,

sana'a 01/12/2008 07:26:08
dear overton #20:
thanks for publicising to the civilized world the bush doctrine!

 

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