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Darling confirms £50bn rescue package for ailing banks



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Members of the public give their views on the government's multi-million pound bail out of the UK's banks
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Published Date: 08 October 2008
As predicted in The Scotsman today, Chancellor Alistair Darling has announced a £50 billion emergency rescue plan for the troubled UK banking sector.

The scheme will see taxpayers' money used to buy stakes in major banks in an attempt to halt the meltdown in the financial sector.

The bail-out comes after another day of panic on the stock market, with banks suffering devastating share losses amid concerns over their funding.

Shares in the Edinburgh-based Royal Bank of Scotland plummeted by almost 40%.

This morning the bank denied rumours that chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin and chairman Sir Tom McKillop were to stand down.

Mr Darling said that the measures the Government was taking were in response to "extraordinary times".

"Those are absolutely critical so far as the system is concerned and we want to make sure that we can get the system going again," he told Sky News.

"It is a process that inevitably will take time. It is not an instant change but it is a restructuring, it is stabilising the system, and that is very important."

Scotland's other banking institution, HBOS, which is in the process of being taken over by Lloyds TSB, said it welcomed today's announcement.

"The Government's announcement represents a very real and serious intention on the part of the authorities, following consultation with the banking industry, to bring stability and certainty to the UK banking system.

"HBOS believes that this initiative is very much in the interests of its shareholders and customers."

The Chancellor said the taxpayer would not lose out.

"The taxpayers' interest is being protected," he said.

"I'm very clear that in return for all this, the taxpayer has got to see some upside. In relation to lending to small businesses, in relation to mortgages... that's important too."

Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond said he also welcomed the Government's package as a "very substantial" set of measures.

Mr Darling said he still did not "rule anything out" but, of today's package, he said: "I believe it will go a long way."

He admitted he had been "irritated" by speculation about the package since Sunday because the Government was working on the package.

"I wanted to announce it when the time was right, when we had got everything sorted out, we had a scheme that worked and the big banks were signed up to it," he said.

"And we actually finished these discussions only a few hours ago."

Mr Darling said it was "absolutely not" true that the chairman and chief executive of Royal Bank of Scotland would lose their jobs as part of a deal with the Government.

"It's not the Government's business to deal with banks' appointments," he said. "It is entirely a matter for banks."

Eight UK banks and building societies – including RBS, Barclays, HBOS, Lloyds TSB and Nationwide – have signed up to an initial £25 billion scheme.

And the Government said it stood ready to make at least another £25 billion available for other eligible institutions.

The Bank of England is also extending the existing £50 billion Special Liquidity Scheme to £200 billion, while a further £250 billion being pumped in under a debt guarantee scheme.

It is hoped that the extraordinary measures will provide the capital boost needed and help restore confidence to get banks lending to each other again.

But the Government is demanding that in return for the public-backed cash injection, banks must cap executive pay and shareholder dividends and commit to supporting lending to homebuyers and small businesses.

Details of the stake-buying scheme reveal that taxpayers will buy preference shares in the banks, which means that they will be first in line for the pay-out of dividends.

The Government sought to give assurances that taxpayer interests would be protected.

A statement said: "If the Government is to provide the capital, the issue will carry terms and conditions that appropriately reflect the financial commitment being made by the taxpayer.

"In reaching agreement on capital investment, the Government will need to take into account dividend policies and executive compensation practices and will require a full commitment to support lending to small businesses and home buyers."

Reports also suggested that RBS had agreed a boardroom clear-out in return for the state-assisted boost.

It is understood that the bank's chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin and chairman Sir Tom McKillop had agreed to stand down.

Mr Darling said he would be announcing measures in the Commons later to help British depositors in Icesave – the internet arm of the Icelandic Landsbanki bank which was nationalised yesterday by the Icelandic government.

He told GMTV: "I am very aware of the fact that Iceland has, sadly, chosen to default on its obligations here. We are pursuing Iceland and we will pursue it vigorously to make sure that we get the money due to us back.

"But in the meantime I am going to be able to help those savers who would otherwise have to look to Iceland to get their money back. I am prepared to stand behind them and to stand behind the depositors.

"It demonstrates my commitment to help people who have put money into banks in these exceptional circumstances."

Shadow chancellor George Osborne said the Tories would be "as constructive as possible".

"We want this to work, we hope it will work," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"This is the final chapter of the age of irresponsibility and it's absolutely extraordinary that a government has been driven by events to today's announcement."

Mr Osborne said it was the "right thing" to provide for the recapitalisation of the banks and some guarantees of the inter-bank market.

But he added: "I want to make sure – and I hope that in detailed negotiations with the individual banks the Chancellor makes sure – that this money is used to allow credit to flow through the economy again, to get that loan extended to the small businesses who need it, to get the family mortgage extended, it is not used to pay bonuses for bankers.

"I think people would be shocked if bonuses were being paid to the banks that take this money."


Bill Jamieson: Two days of delays leave Scottish giants humiliated

Jeff Salway: Be vigilant, but no need to panic yet for Britain's pensioners

£38,000 savings guarantee for whole of Europe

The full article contains 1078 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Salmond Rushdie,

08/10/2008 08:41:32
Interesting. I wonder whether Salmond and his cohorts will continue to seek a buy-out of HBOS now that the UK Government has a shareholding in the company.

Not forgetting that Salmond stated only a few weeks ago that he would have used up to £100 billion of Scottish taxpayers money to bail HBOS out...
2

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 08:41:33
18 months too little too late by Brown and Darling.
Also the leaks from Darling (or his advisers) over this and the Lloyds /HBOS take over has devastated RBS and HBOS shares.
3

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 08:44:45
# 1. An independent Scotland would have acted nuch sooner just like Ireland which has guaranteed £320 billions to protect its Banks long before UK government took any action.
4

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 08:53:41
3 Linda
The actions of the Irish govt have not helped the share price of their banks. They have also taken a hammering. Bank of Ireland was trading at 4.80 Euros before the Irish announcement and the price has fellen back to 3.29. It appears that the markets do not have confidence in their move.

Also the Irish govt now has to pay much more to insure its bonds against them defaulting. Another indication that the markets are worried about the Irish move.
5

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 08:58:45
Linda (3): "An independent Scotland would have acted nuch sooner"

Here you're thinking of dynamic Scottish politicians like, say, Darling and Brown, presumably.

"just like Ireland which has guaranteed £320 billions to protect its Banks"

The difference is that British taxpayers (i.e. some 90% English taxpayers) can provide this money. Ireland is bluffing in desperation, promising a guarantee which they could not possibly fund. Had Scotland been independent, and had RBS and HBOS been their current size in that alternative history, then Scotland would have been in the same situation: attempting to rescue banks whose liabilities dwarf GDP many times over.
6

Alasdair,

08/10/2008 09:02:00
"As predicted in The Scotsman today"??

What a tragic little rag this is. "As predicted"?
Pfft - as predicted in EVERY paper and news show. Being as they all heard the same leak.

..except the Hootsmon wants to write this up as though they had some great source, as though they had their ears to the ground!

Balls I say.
7

Venachar,

08/10/2008 09:03:22
As George Mathewson said, the Chancellors performance has not been 9 out of 10.
So much for giving the banks and markets stability, has he noticed the Footsie is still on the way down this morning.
Right Brown and Darling the right people for the job. The only job they are right for is in a circus as a pair of clowns.
Roll on November 6th when we can start to get rid of these useless lumps.
8

Mad MA P,

Perth 08/10/2008 09:04:31
There is no doubt in my mind that Alex Salmond would have been a better Prime Minister in these circumstances than Gordon Brown. However Alex is not the only Scot in Scotland. Why are the people of Scotland and or the UK not supporting their own banks against the (spivs and speculators). If people who could afford to, and Im talking about just a few pounds each, bought shares in these banks we the people would own them not the institutions. My advice in this crisis is to buy buy buy. Stop worrying about yourselves and support your banks, your nation and your childrens future and lets get rid of our reputation as a dependant culture for good.
9

Class On Grass,

On the ledge with you 08/10/2008 09:05:30
This is not about Independence. For Scotland to be independent it needs a successful England. The problem is caused by all the billion plus bad-loan deals (on BBC4 last night). These investment parasites were pocketing 20 percent of a deal, even though the deals were rotten through. 20% of a 20 billion deal – ridiculous.

The first stage should NOT be to take taxpayers money to fund the banks. Instead the assets of the parasites should be seized. It’s not their money. The rotten deals should be unwound as much as possible, and then see where the banks stand. The seizure of parasite cash would hopefully be enough to stabilize the ship, allowing them to get back to the business of managing proper loans.

(A wee story) A friend has seen his house price in London fall continually. He got a buyer eventually, losing 30K on the property. The bank will not allow him to sell, even though he earns well, and would continue to pay the mortgage off. His property value has since lost another 10K. Bankstards.

10

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:06:49
4 Linda
PS
An Irish financial journalist has said that the Irish govt is "playing a very high stakes game of poker"
If it works out, their banks will benefit to na extent but if the markets go into meltdown, then Ireland could be faced with huge liabilities without the means to meet them and would, in effect, be bust despite their relatively healthy economy.

Iceland had a healthy economy until a few months ago and it is now effectively bust. It is being bailed out by a $5bn loan from Russia - $20,000 for every person in Iceland.
11

Salmond Rushdie,

08/10/2008 09:09:31
#3 Linda

There is also the possibility that Greece, Ireland and Iceland are about to go pop by carrying a liability for the savings guarantees that is many times the GDP of each economy. Each of these countries have done this because they believe at the end of the day that the EU will bail them out if the guarantees are called in. It is the unavailability of credit that has resulted in the banks not being able to lend, together with historical dodgy lending. At least Darling has provided share capital to the banks, allowing them to lend. He also bought these shares at a knock-down price. Good chance the taxpayer will benefit from this over the medium to long term.

Where does the taxpayer benefit from Govt. providing a guarantee over savings? A guarantee is simply a potential future liability with no positive upside for the guarantor.
12

The Strategist,

08/10/2008 09:11:20
I would have no faith that this so called rescue deal will work until it's announced that Fred Goodwin of RBS and the boy Hornby from HBOS plus their respective boards have all resigned without compensation.
13

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:18:53
Bank of Irland has fallen rapidly again today and is now trading at less than 3 Euros. The Irish govt must be sweating.
14

kennyy,

08/10/2008 09:19:57
can anyone explain why on the same rumours RBS drops 40% but barclays and lloyds only drop 10%. RBS by all accounts are in a lot better position than lloyds. there seems to be a trend through this crisis of both scottish banks having double the losses of any other UK bank??
15

Doh,

08/10/2008 09:20:29


This is especially good news for anyone holding bank shares or indeed with bank options.

Dont worry fellas the taxpayer will see you right.
16

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:21:25
14 kenny
Oh dear - not another claim of some anti-Scottish conspiracy I hope.
17

Class On Grass,

On the ledge behind you, shoving 08/10/2008 09:21:54


Why hit the common taxpayer? Write down all the billionaires to millionaires (ok, only those in finance) and use their ill-gotten gains.

18

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 09:24:24
#14 Actually HBOS are right now up by 15%, while RBS are down by 20%. So let's n1p in the bud any notion that there's anything specifically related to the Scottishness of the banks.

Some people clearly think that RBS is still over-valued in the current climate.
19

Class On Grass,

On the ledge looking down at the splatter 08/10/2008 09:25:17

Financial billionaires - seize their assets, they'll need to force their wives into prostitution, sell their dogs for cat food.

Give their cats to good homes.
20

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:25:21
15 Doh
Not really. The share price of these banks has fallen further because the govt stake in these banks is in the form of preference shares. That means the the govt gets first claim on any benefits such as future dividends etc. They probably did this to avoid any claims of taxpayers subsidising shareholders.
21

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 09:25:55
I cannot believe that this forum still has dumb censoring that disallows words like n-i-p which are vastly more likely to be used in a non-insulting manner than in an insulting one. Come on Scotsman - sort it out.
22

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:29:21
I see the London Stock Exchange is down 4.4% as I write, following Mr Darling's announcement. A few days ago indices fell 7% after the US $700 billion rescue, but rose when it was earlier voted down by Congress.

It is not plain from this that the market thinks government intervention of this nature is effective.

I understand that the "Austrian" school of economics supports this, though there views seem largely unrepresented in the press and by UK politicians.
23

Class On Grass,

On the ledge laughing manically 08/10/2008 09:30:04

Lower level execs should pay the price as well.
Failing banks can be converted into council housing.

The farms need labour - a friend lost half his crop as he could not get pickers (during a world food shortage?)
Move these city parasites back to the country. The lesser evils can drive tractors. The rest can get picking. They'll soon realize it is so much better than the Citadel.

24

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 09:32:27
Ugly George (16): "Oh dear - not another claim of some anti-Scottish conspiracy I hope."

Almost certainly yes. We evil English have clearly engineered near systemic collapse to humiliate Scotland. Scotocentric paranoia is truly insightful . . .
25

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 09:36:16
Stephen Cowley (22): "It is not plain from this that the market thinks government intervention of this nature is effective."

That's certainly true -- after all, who knows? Our current plan is closely based on the Norwegian and Swedish banking crises of the early 1990s, but our sample is therefore rather small. However, the consequences of financial collapse would be truly disturbing, as we see from Iceland: if I had to bet, I would conjecture that Iceland's government is on the verge of falling.
26

The Strategist,

08/10/2008 09:41:54
In the 80s when Aberdeen university developed the world's first MRI machine and wanted to manufacture them in Scotland the banks refused to help and the university ended up having to license the technology to the Japanese.

The attitude that drove that decision is still prevalent amongst the Scottish banks so why should we be remotely interested in supporting them if they won't support Scotland.
27

thistle do,

here n' there 08/10/2008 09:45:41
It's easy to blame the government isn't it. Was it them that made the aggressive buying up of other banks, allowed risky speculation and down right tacky betting on the markets. I don't remember them blaming the governemnt when they were making there billions of didgy profits.
If there was any honour in banking the top brass, at least the chairman and CEO, would walk NOW. Of coure we know that there is no honour what so ever in banking. Sir Fred's assets bought from his performance bonuses should ceased and sold off for the public's good!
28

thistle do,

here n' there 08/10/2008 09:45:42
It's easy to blame the government isn't it. Was it them that made the aggressive buying up of other banks, allowed risky speculation and down right tacky betting on the markets. I don't remember them blaming the governemnt when they were making there billions of didgy profits.
If there was any honour in banking the top brass, at least the chairman and CEO, would walk NOW. Of coure we know that there is no honour what so ever in banking. Sir Fred's assets bought from his performance bonuses should ceased and sold off for the public's good!
29

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 09:49:58
#27 - Brilliant, take one small example without any real underlying explanation and use it to back-up a hugely generalised theory.

The "Scottish" banks provide significant support to Scottish businesses - that's why you should support them. While it may be unpalatable to provide financial bail outs to the banks after they have made significant mistakes, not to do so would result in a far worse situation than the one that we currently face.
30

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 09:51:33
The Strategist (27): "In the 80s when Aberdeen university developed the world's first MRI machine and wanted to manufacture them in Scotland"

Aberdeen should be proud of its MRI research, but you have oversimplified. See, for example, the following Manchester page on the (fairly complex) R&D of MRI

http://www.isbe.man.ac.uk/personal/dellard/dje/history_mri/history%20of%20mri2.htm

or, with a general European perspective

http://www.emrf.org/New%20Site/FAQs/FAQs%20History%20of%20MRI%20page02.htm

It would be good to read one Scottish post on science and technology that did not reduce itself to naive nationalism.
31

jimmyt,

Scotland 08/10/2008 09:52:08
#3 Linda

Absolute rubbish. As #5 Fairfax and #11 Salmond Rushie correctly point out, there is no upside for tax payers in Ireland and the gurantee could never be fully honoured and therefore it amounts to an enormous bluff.

'Chuckles' Salmond was offering to go down the same bizarre route as Ireland, i.e. GUARANTEE deposits on Monday night. Why? because an independent Scotland couldn't have invested the huge amounts of capital the UK govt did this morning.

So the 'Arc of Propsperity' is exposed for what it is; a complete SNP myth. Iceland is bust and Ireland making promises it can't keep with no upside for taxpayers.
32

brownlie,

08/10/2008 09:54:43
27 Fairfax

Interested in your conjecture that the Icelandic government is falling. Is the same not true of the UK Government?

As for the "systemic collapse" that you mentioned surely part of the blame must lie squarely with the UK Government?
33

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 09:56:55
Meanwhile, as the SNPites on this and other boards talk about the anti-Scottish banks behaviour of the UK government, the market disagrees: HBOS is up by 25%, while Barclays is down by 10%, and the day's earlier losses by RBS are well on the way to being clawed back.

Do you think English people are sitting on their newspaper messageboards complaining that Scotland's banks are being unfairly helped?

Me neither.
34

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:03:50
34 Duncan

The fact that Scotland has banks is interesting? Which banks?
35

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/10/2008 10:04:49
Why dont they just give everyone in the UK half a million quid? It will work out cheaper in the long run...
36

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:07:59
brownlie (33): "Interested in your conjecture that the Icelandic government is falling. Is the same not true of the UK Government?"

It might become so if we suffered systemic collapse. As for Iceland, if their Russian bluff succeeds (i.e. another Western central bank provides cash), then their government will be hailed as triumphant; however, if they seriously lease Keplavik in exchange for a Russian loan, then I believe their government will fall. Fortunately the UK isn't in this dire situation yet and, much though I dislike Brown and Darling, this is probably not the time for a change. An election before Christmas would be very welcome.

"As for the "systemic collapse" that you mentioned surely part of the blame must lie squarely with the UK Government?"

Of course. All western governments deserve part of the blame.
37

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 10:08:18
£50billion sounds a lot but there is much rumour and speculation that it still falls far far short of whats required. Not that it matters, the money is worthless anyway.
38

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 10:09:01
At the present time, the FTSE is still in the red? The value of stocks can go down, as well as up.

Very much like the present state of the United Kingdom which continues on its unremitting post-War decline!
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 10:11:45
#35 Read it again, dear.
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 10:12:23
38 Rosscobhuoy
As I understand it, the £50bn is just to buy stakes in the banks. There is to be up to £200bn made available to help the bans with liquidity.
41

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:14:42
Banana Heid (36): "Why dont they just give everyone in the UK half a million quid?"

£50 billion divided by 50 million (the population of England, say) = £1000. Even including the £350 billion liquidity injection takes us to £8000 per person. This is irritating but affordable. [Recall that a billion is a thousand million, not a million million.]
42

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:14:52
37 Fairfax

That being the case, is it really "Scotocentric paranoia" to put some of the blame on the UK Government?
43

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 10:15:48
George, from what i understand that will still fall short of what is required to patch up all the holes that the banks and investment houses require to patch up the ship. Thanks to speculative bets and investments that still have time to mature(And lose a lot more value) this is going to continue for quite a while yet. I can still see at least one more of our major banks going down the tubes. The best this will do is give them more time to either stabilise or dig a bigger hole by trying to speculate their way out.

I know which one they will probably choose.
44

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:16:41
40 Duncan

I've read it again, ducky, and it still says "Scotland's banks"!
45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 10:17:12
Incidentally, for Nevsky and others (oh, and Salmond) who have advocated the UK adopting the Irish model, the lesson from the Landsbanki/Icesave collapse must make hard reading. Despite the first £16k of savings in Icesave being guaranteed by the Icelandic government, Iceland has said that in fact it will not be honouring that guarantee. Unsurprisingly, it has enough troubles at home without worrying about people abroad.

As far as I can see, that's exactly the sort of response UK savers should expect from Ireland were one or more of their banks to collapse.

Still advocating we do the same, Nevsky? Alex?
46

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:18:42
brownlie (43): "That being the case, is it really "Scotocentric paranoia" to put some of the blame on the UK Government?"

If it were merely some of the blame, then certainly not. Looking through these boards, however, reveals somewhat wilder conspiracy theories.
47

Doh,

08/10/2008 10:18:46
#20
I am, sure youi aright about the preference shares
but I cant help noticw HBOS shares are up nearly 30%.

Courtesy of the taxpayer. Please make sure to wipe your bread in the gravy before cashing in options.

Laughable - the age of irresonsible greed.

The bankers at teh top of the nationalised Amercian bansk treated themselves to $300M dollars, roughtly $15-$30M each. Nice work if you can ge it.

They are the brightest and the best.
They're worth every penny.
48

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:21:39
47 Fairfax

Quite, I always feel that it is wrong to base a generalisation, a la AM2, on a few postings.
49

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 10:22:00
#46 Duncan.

I think regardless of what Iceland and IReland can aford to pay up, the UK wouldn't be far off in terms up how badly it would be affected should the government actually have to pay up the guarentee on savings. We may be able to cover it in statistical terms but in reality the economy would be damaged beyond belief. I think this is half the reason that some countries have done it. They know that regardless of what happens, it's either going to work spectacularly or fail spectacularly and they don't have much control over which of those 2 it is.
50

The Strategist,

08/10/2008 10:24:16
#31

The first practical MRI unit was developed and built in Aberdeen and it was this that had the real commercial potential.

Now you may be someone that doesn't like the idea of economic or industrial patriotism and of course in that respect you share the same view as Alastair Darling who told the FT exactly that. However, this is of course completely out of line with virtually the entire rest of the world and has contributed heavily to our current economic state.

The fact remains that had the banks supported Abd'n Uni then there would now be a thriving Scottish based MRI industry which would have undoubtedly led to other industrial developments in the medical sector.

Of course this situation hasn't improved in the last 25 years. A recent report on the funding of new clean technology type companies says that companies are finding it so difficult to raise funds here that many are considering moving overseas ironically to the USA.
51

jimmyt,

Scotland 08/10/2008 10:25:38
Nevsky, where are you?

We want more pearls of wisdom. Tell us more about how we should adopt the Irish system.
52

Border Scot,

08/10/2008 10:25:56
The rescue package has not be designed to boost trading in Londn today, it has ben designed to save the British banking system. The key thing is not to look at the FTSE as a whole right now, it is to look at how banking shares perform over the next few weeks. On that measure the Irish plan has failed because it has not prevented Irish banks losing significant value. And if they do go bust the Irish government will not be abl to meet its obligations becaue Ireland does not have the money.

Whatever your political persuasion, you have to hope that this Brown/Darling plan works. If it does not everyone is going to suffer, whether you are a nationalist, a unionist or you just do not care.
53

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:25:57
brownlie (47): "Quite, I always feel that it is wrong to base a generalisation, a la AM2, on a few postings"

My accusation of Scotocentric paranoia was specifically aimed at Kenny's post (14 above), not a generalization to the entire board. Still, I suspect you'll only have to wait to see more anti-English conspiracy theories arise.
54

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/10/2008 10:26:12
#42 thanks for doing my sums 4 me. I wasn't actually counting to be honest just being flippant as usual, Ok then so why don't the government give everyone in the country with a job £1000 and give me half a million quid as a bonus for suggesting it... Instead of bailing out the dodgy bank managers the public should be rewarded for putting up with their greed for so long...
55

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 10:29:51
#55

We're going to be affected for a long time regardless of whether this works or not. I agree with the sentiment about it not mattering if we were independent or part of the union. To be honest, that's part of the reason i think independence is now a better option. I'd rather fail by my own mistakes than be brought down by those around me(Though it's the thought of personal glory when the rest fail that really motivates me obviously). I don't think the union can be supported any more. All thats happening now shows that it doesn't matter how big your economy is or what collateral you have.
56

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:34:36
56 Fairfax

As far as I can see Kenny was merely pointing out the facts as he saw it.

Do you, perhaps, dispute the figures he quoted?
57

Border Scot,

08/10/2008 10:35:23
#59 - If this plan works, then it will help Scotland enormously because it will lessen the effects of the inevitable downturn we are about to go through. Let's not forget it is a plan that has been put together by two Scots who answer to Scottish voters. The size of the UK economy has given them the option of doing something that smaller countries, with far smaller GDPs are unable to do.
58

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:35:59
The Strategist (51): "The first practical MRI unit was developed and built in Aberdeen and it was this that had the real commercial potential. "

One of the first practical MRI units was developed in Aberdeen. As the links I posted describe, the technology's evolution was much broader.

"Now you may be someone that doesn't like the idea of economic or industrial patriotism"

Patriotism is fine. I'm deeply proud of the achievements of my own university of Cambridge, for example. I draw the line, however, at nationalist rewriting of scientific and technological history.

"The fact remains that had the banks supported Abd'n Uni then there would now be a thriving Scottish based MRI industry"

It's a plausible conjecture, not a fact.

"Of course this situation hasn't improved in the last 25 years."

Perhaps it hasn't in Scotland. Here in Cambridge and the South-East there has been lots of venture capital for interesting technologies.

59

Nevsky,

Moscow 08/10/2008 10:37:12
54jimmyt#

You will notice that bankers are nearly ALL calling for a full guarantee as well or had you missed that completely?

You will also notice that while Ireland has guaranteed all the savngs it has not actually injected one penny while the UK is using £500 billion of your money.

Has the Irish system failed yet jimmy..don't think it has?

The UK should adopt also the measures that Salmond advocated a week ago in guaranteeing the funds..would have saved possibly billions being wiped off the value of the banks.

The collateral being used here does not remove in any way the damage being done to the economy, the inevitable job losses and slowing of the econony..al part in thatnk to the clown Brown eh Jimmy!
60

The Strategist,

08/10/2008 10:39:12
#58

I sympathise with the employees but if the banks themselves are not contributing hugely to Scottish economic well being then it's important to question their raison d'etre.

#55

I think that's right. Everyone has to hope the Brown/Darling plan works but not for the sake of the banks themselves but for families and businesses. However, if it does work then we should be willing to take stock of whether the system as it stands is the right one.
61

Nevsky,

Moscow 08/10/2008 10:41:08
54jimmy#

Read any other papers today apasrt from your Daily Record? Try the broadsheets and have a look at the fools they are making of Brown and Darling...they are out of their depth, in fact Brown would be out of hiss depth in a town council.

Going to sort out world financial system and child poverty what a joke..he is the chancellor that loosened up the banks and ecncouraged cheap money from the US..what an absolute clown!

Roll on Glenrothes!
62

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 10:41:22
#61

I'd like to think that an independent Scotland, acting in a suitable fashion and using her own natural resources could do something comparable in proportions to what the UK government has done now. I don't think we would be any worse off.

As for the comment on 2 Scots who answer to Scottish voters. Brown has already pretty much said he will not represent a large section of Scottish voters with his vow to do anything to protect the union. Actually, i'm being harsh on Brown, i don't think anyone in politics nowadays serves the electorate, they are only in office to protect and promote themselves and their own interests.
63

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:41:58
brownlie (60): "As far as I can see Kenny was merely pointing out the facts as he saw it."

Presumably so.

"Do you, perhaps, dispute the figures he quoted?"

At the time of his posting, his figures were roughly correct, although giving percentage reductions obscured the larger absolute losses in market capitalization of other banks. However, my main criticism here is his implication that Scottish banks are, in some sense, being targeted. If that was not his intended meaning, then let him clarify. If it was his intended meaning, then it is Scotocentric paranoia.

64

Royster,

08/10/2008 10:49:02
Alex Salmond was singing the praises of Iceland which is now so bust that non-Scandinavian western governments have refused to help. They ended up with a 'loan' from Russia which will demand rather a large payback when it comes to territorial rights in the Arctic.
65

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:49:16
BananaHeid (57): "I wasn't actually counting to be honest just being flippant as usual"

No problem.

"Ok then so why don't the government give everyone in the country with a job £1000 and give me half a million quid as a bonus for suggesting it"

That's a much better question. If this plan works -- and it did in Norway and Sweden -- then it will protect us from total financial collapse (i.e. Great Depression 2.0), and the taxpayer might even make a modest profit several years down the line when the banks are reprivatized. It's interesting to read the Norwegian take on this

www.norges-bank.no/upload/import/publikasjoner/skriftserie/33/chapter1.pdf

I strongly suspect this is their script at present.

Of course, if it fails, then we might get to experience financial collapse -- that might not be pleasant!

66

vimto,

08/10/2008 10:49:34
Well done Alistair Darling,a little late,but better late than never,now can we please stop hanging on to americas coat tails,because they sneeze and we catch pneumonia.
67

Calum10,

08/10/2008 10:51:20
The chaos over the past few days can be laid at the door of Gordon Brown. His government's dithering has turned this financial mess into a full-blown political crisis.

Who now has faith in this Labour government?

The markets over the past few days have clearly answered that by saying, "None what-so-ever."
68

Border Scot,

08/10/2008 10:53:06
#63 - Ireland took a huge risk and one that has had a destabilising effect across the whole of Europe. For this reason it has been severely criticised by other European leaders. And the irish banks are still seeing major falls in their share prices. So, in effect, the Irish government has taken on a huge liability, one that it cannot hope to meet should the worst happen, for absolutely no positive benefit.

The Irish may have had no other option. The British - with a much bigger economy - do.
69

Royster,

08/10/2008 10:53:14
#63. No Ireland hasn't failed yet but it doesn't have the capacity to bail out large banks - just like Iceland. It is, unlike Iceland, a memer of the EU. The Irish guarantee isn't really worth the paper it is written on especially if non-Irish savers put their money in Ireland to take advantage of the giarantee and the bank went bust. It can't unilaterally print Euros to pay them off - at least I don't think so.
70

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/10/2008 10:53:51
#60 HBOS up nearly 50%, RBS up 16%. Those dastardly English, eh?
71

Border Scot,

08/10/2008 10:54:24
#71 - Are stock markets across the world falling as rapidly as ours because of Gordon Brown?
72

Border Scot,

08/10/2008 10:55:42
#73 - It can't. The ECB controls the printing of Euros. The Irish have taken a desperate gamble which has been heavily criticised across Europe.
73

Nectar,

Leaf 08/10/2008 10:57:49
THE government is to invest £50bn of your money in British banks so they can lend it back to you with interest.

The historic move is being hailed as a lifeline for the financial system as long as nobody asks too many questions.

Julian Cook, chief economist at Corbett and Barker, said: "The government will give your money to the banks so the banks can start lending you that money, probably at around 7% APR.

"Thanks to all the interest you're paying on your own money, the banks will make billions of pounds again and normality will be restored.

"After a few years of this the government will cash in the bank shares it bought with your money and use the profits to build a huge dome somewhere."

He added: "In case you hadn't already worked it out - the entire global financial system is predicated on the assumption that you're an idiot."

Chancellor Alistair Darling said the decision had been taken in tandem with the banking industry, adding: "They used a lot of dirty words I'd never heard before and one of them had an angry looking dog."

Meanwhile, Emma Bradford, a sales manager from Bath, said: "Why doesn't the government just give my money to me so I can buy stuff from businesses who will then make a profit and put it in a bank?"

But Mr Darling insisted: "Shut up."

Words by The Daily Mash.
74

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 10:57:58
63 Nevski
"You will notice that bankers are nearly ALL calling for a full guarantee"

Of course they are. anyone in their position would do the same. They are asking for the govt to put up all the risk instaed of themselves. That does not mean it is the right thing to do.

Also, as I pointed out in post 4, the actions of the Irish govt have not succeeded in stabilising the share price of their banks but the Irish govt is now hugely exposed to the markets with the result that its bonds have fallen in value and they are having to pay much more to ensure them against default.

You also state that the move has not failed in Irealnd yet but it has in Iceland. Iceland is, ineffect bust and had to borrow $5bn from Russia - £20,000 for every person in Iceland.

Also, if the unlimited guarantee is such a good move, why do only 3 out of 27 EU countries have this in place. As we have seen these problems are spreading to many countries. It is clear that 24 EU countries do not want to take the same risk as Ireland.

Finally, as I've said before, why do some people take everything Alex salmond says as gospel. There seems to be an attitude among some that, if Alex says so it must be right. This is not the case.
75

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 10:58:09
Royster (73): "It can't unilaterally print Euros to pay them off - at least I don't think so."

If it did so, then it would have de facto withdrawn from the Euro itself. Of course that might happen if the Germans continue to oppose reducing interest rates, in which case we would see the beginning of the end of the Eurozone.
76

brownlie,

08/10/2008 10:58:52
67 Fairfax

You can find paranoia everywhere if you look hard enough. There are more stark examples of paranoia than the poster Kennyy pointing to an apparent trend that obviously concerns him. Do you think it possible that his concerns may be based on the fact that he might have money in the banks with Scottish connections that he refers to in his comment?

I cannot see him referring to the "anti-English conspiracy theory" you mention.
77

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 11:02:19
nectar (77): "Words by The Daily Mash."

It's good to find another Daily Mash fan, although I don't agree with them on this one. I particularly enjoyed their suggestion that the explorer Ranulph Fiennes would be sent to discover why gas prices were so high.
78

Royster,

08/10/2008 11:03:02
Iceland's Kaupthing placing 168m Sainsbury shares at 250 pence per share - Reuters. Things have got desperate. This is the 'best' bank in Iceland and it is selling the family silver. Not sure if I'll take Sainsbury at the moment. Maybe Aldi or AK-47s if things get more desperate.
79

Fairfax,

08/10/2008 11:05:48
brownlie (80): "Do you think it possible that his concerns may be based on the fact that he might have money in the banks with Scottish connections that he refers to in his comment?"

Possibly so, although in that case he might also have recalled that RBS owns NatWest, therefore implying that the vast majority of its depositors are English. The same is also true for HBOS.

"I cannot see him referring to the "anti-English conspiracy theory" you mention."

If you don't wish to follow the implication, then that's fine by me.
80

Royster,

08/10/2008 11:06:08
This bank bailout may be okay after a couple of weeks. The preference shares idea is good. Alistair Darling has gone up in my esteem but he is starting from a very low base. The market, though, will give it its customary kicking just to be on the safe side.
81

Rosscobhoy,

08/10/2008 11:08:31
#82

Would hardly describe Sainsbury shares as the family silver. If this plan fails then 250p a share will look like an excellent move. The supermarkets will be next to see the profits drop if this doesn't keep up the illusion of a succesful economy!
82

Nevsky,

Moscow 08/10/2008 11:10:43
78 George#

Nothing Salmond says is gospel but he has been unfairly criticised for what he said; i believe he got it right and so does the majority of the banking sector but no-one here will agree of course.

Irelands gamble is paying off so far, have not cost them one bean unlike the £500 billion that is being used here. I don't know if they can hold out but i hope so and would make the UK look a bit stupid if that was the case.

I think that governments have now been put in a tricky position, guarantee funds OR invest the levels the UK has done..from what i understand some of the European banks are now vulnerable after Darling's actions.

What is interesting is the lack of pan-European action in all this, where is the central bank?



83

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 11:11:49
78 nevski
PS You should be congratulating Brown and Darling. Their move is very similar to that carried out by Norway after their bank crisis in 1991.
84

jimmyt,

08/10/2008 11:12:13
#63 Nevsky (Mr Norway 2008)

"You will notice that bankers are nearly ALL calling for a full guarantee as well?"

Of course they are. As Ugly George rightly says its to be expected. It is not the right approach however (see previous posts).

And you rightly point out that Ireland hasn't invested a penny in its banks. So as I have said before on previous posts, it gets ALL the downside risks of a bank failing and NONE of the upside risks when the sector recovers.

I strongly disagree with you and Salmond on guarantees. I don't think they work. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if a bank in Ireland now fails (heaven forbid) Ireland could be in the same mess as Iceland. For Salmond, this is singly the biggest policy mistake he has made. If he wants credibility for an independent Scotland he has to get these 'what we would do in a crisis' policy decisions right, and he called this one badly.
85

brownlie,

08/10/2008 11:19:04
74 Duncan

Are you talking to me, sweetness?

If so, please explain your "dastardly English" comment?