Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Friday, 5th December 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Darkest day for Scottish banking as the Bank of Scotland faces its end



View Video
Download Video

Video

The Scotsman's Bill Jamieson gives his analysis of the proposed HBOS/Lloyds TSB merger
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 18 September 2008
FOR Scotland's oldest bank, it was the suddenness of its rout that stunned. That and the silence at the top. That and the invisibility of leadership. That and the short-selling frenzy that descended on HBOS shares yesterday, like vultures on a corpse.
This was the blackest day in Scottish banking. An appalling day of shock, confusion and disbelief.

Many this morning will still be aghast at the speed of the bank's share collapse. Anger and a reckoning will come later. Today, the fate of HBOS, the savings of its 22 million customers, the prospects for its 72,000 staff and the final reckoning for its 1.2 million hapless investors – whose shares have been savaged – rest on the merger with rival Lloyds TSB.

Yesterday, in conditions of near pandemonium, shares in HBOS had by far their worst day since the onset of the credit crisis. Monday and Tuesday were train-wreck enough – the value of HBOS had plunged by £7 billion by Tuesday night. So there was a surge of relief when the shares opened firmer at the start of trading yesterday. It did not last long.

The shares opened at 200p, rose to 214p, then plunged to only 88p – an astonishing collapse of 56 per cent in less than an hour. Then came reports of "advanced" merger talks with Lloyds TSB, at a price of 300p a share.

The shares rallied – only to fall back again. Amid ever-growing confusion in the market, the mooted bid terms were now corrected – to 200p a share.

By the close, shares in HBOS were still being traded – astonishing for a company said to be in "advanced merger talks". They finished at 147.10p, down almost 20 per cent – a further loss of value of £1.9 billion.

That suggests an ominous lack of confidence. The price-tag on HBOS, Britain's biggest mortgage lender, has now sunk to only £9.6 billion, 83 per cent down on the level a year ago.

IN THE rolling credit crisis, more than £46 billion of the bank's shareholder value has evaporated into thin air. The collapse has hit pension funds, wiped out the nest-eggs of many investors – and added to the misery of staff, many of whom had built up substantial holdings of HBOS shares.

Earlier this year, in a desperate attempt to shore up confidence in the bank, 250 senior managers together bought 1.4 million shares at 446.25p out of their own savings. The cost of the investment was £6 million. By last night, that investment had tumbled to barely £2 million – a loss of two-thirds in barely six months.

Bank of Scotland, formed in 1695 and merged with the Halifax to form HBOS less than a decade ago, was a bank that loved its history.

Its founding constitution and articles are kept like sacred relics in a special glass container and screened off behind a polished wooden panel near the boardroom in the bank's recently refurbished headquarters on The Mound in Edinburgh.

THE bank has survived European revolutions, agricultural depressions, two world wars, stock market crashes and too many recessions to mention. Now it has succumbed to the greatest convulsion in financial markets since 1929.

In hundreds of bank branches across Scotland yesterday, staff maintained the pretence of business as usual. There were no queues of fearful customers anxious to withdraw their savings.

But sources in the bank say it was different among wealthier customers with accounts at the bank's headquarters.

"We've seen a number withdrawing their savings in recent weeks," one said. "Younger customers have taken the share fall this year in their stride. It's the older customers – 50-plus – with their pensions and life savings who've been really anxious."

As for corporate clients, one HBOS business customer told me: "I was speaking to our account manager at HBOS a few days ago. I said, 'Things are looking shaky'. His reply was not exactly reassuring: 'Not half as shaky as they are in here'."

And where has the leadership been? The chief executive, Andy Hornby, and the chairman, Sir Dennis Stephenson, have barely been seen. There have been few public appearances to reassure customers and rally the staff.

THE first thing staff at HBOS knew about merger talks was when they read the news on the BBC website yesterday.

Later yesterday, it fell to me, as a routine HBOS customer, to tell the staff at my local branch the takeover talks had been confirmed. "You're telling us", the staffer said. "We know nothing about it."

This reluctance of the bank's leaders to step up is a recurring feature. Did they know more than Stock Exchange regulations would allow them to say?

Anxious though many staffers now are about the future, at branch level there seems little loyalty to the leadership.

For centuries, Scotland has prided itself on its skills in banking and finance. Our banks, with their unique legal constitution and distinctive notes, became part of our national definition.

But the manner of this collapse – from the misjudgments of its management through the flabbiness of regulators to the final orgy by short-sellers – "City spivs", in the scathing denunciation of Alex Salmond, the First Minister, yesterday – has dealt a smashing blow, not just to Scottish banking but to Scottish pride.

AND it may not be the only one. A source familiar with the situation yesterday warned that Scotland may be in danger of losing both its banks.

"This is a revolutionary day for the banking sector," the source said. "Nothing is ever going to be the same. Look at the state of the markets. There's still another shoe to fall – a merger of Royal Bank of Scotland with HSBC."

There is no suggestion such a move is being contemplated, but in the febrile chaos of this week – with bank shares reeling on Wall Street and in London – nothing can be ruled out.

Snarled one broker: "The mood is bad, bad, bad out there. People in the City are worrying about their jobs. They don't know if they are going to get paid. If Lehman can go down and AIG can fall apart, that makes everyone very nervous indeed."

The acute worry yesterday for the bank, the regulatory authorities and the government was that the run on HBOS shares would create enough fear among its financiers – providers of wholesale credit who give the bank its money – for there to be a withdrawal of credit for HBOS.

It emerged that the Prime Minister, desperate to avoid another Northern Rock, had urged Sir Victor Blank, the Lloyds TSB chairman, to avoid a systemic crisis by buying HBOS.

Bank of Scotland's golden era was in the late 1980s and 1990s when, under the stewardship of Bruce Patullo, it built up a corporate lending business and introduced electronic home banking for business customers.

AND it was what Patullo did not do, as much as what he did, that built the reputation and strength of BoS. He avoided the fads and fashions of the stock market. He resisted pressure for the bank to buy a stockbroker. And he turned down offer after offer for the bank to go into estate agency.

Critics accused the bank of over-caution. But the City and the shareholders – or proprietors as they were known up until 1999 – loved it.

BoS market capitalisation overtook that of rival Royal Bank of Scotland. And it was BoS that opened the bidding battle for National Westminster Bank. But RBS came in later with a higher offer, and defeat in that battle left BoS looking vulnerable to a predator. Soon after came a merger with the Halifax.

In the jostling for key positions, senior BoS executives found themselves losing out to what became nicknamed "The Haliban". Many BoS "lifers" left.

As interest rates were cut and house prices took off, the HBOS business model looked a winner. But the world of 125 per cent loan-to-value mortgages and house price to income multiples stretching to seven times appalled those of the old guard who remained.

THE chief executive, James Crosby, wanted to rein back on mortgage lending. But he lost out in a power struggle. Soon after, he bowed out, to be replaced by Andy Hornby, a young executive from the supermarket group Asda.

HBOS was to have one last Great Hurrah in the mortgage market. Early in 2007, there was a declaration it intended to get its market share back up to 20 per cent. But within months, the credit crisis had struck. HBOS was to face "the perfect storm".

Anger is building among the financial community over poor regulation. Simon Mansell, an independent financial adviser, said last night: "HBOS has 20 per cent of the UK mortgage market at a time when a 25 per cent fall in UK house prices is predicted.

"Where was the FSA (Financial Services Authority] when it came to income multiples of nine times salary? The FSA has been too busy regulating the monkey, not the organ grinder."

Fear for 40,000 jobs

A GOVERNMENT-backed deal to push through a merger today between HBOS and Lloyds TSB could result in up to 40,000 job cuts across the UK.

The tie-up – prompted after speculative trading led to massive falls in HBOS's share price – would create a banking colossus with almost a third of the UK's mortgage market.

Last night, it was reported the boards of the two banks had agreed a £12 billion deal for HBOS, at a price of 232p per HBOS share.

The deal can be traced to Monday night when , at a private event hosted by Citigroup in London, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, personally met Sir Victor Blank, the City grandee who chairs Lloyds-TSB – a bank which has been looking for some time to expand by merging with a rival.

At 10am the following morning, Mr Brown met Mervyn King, the Bank of England Governor, and Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, at Downing Street. Spokesmen would later claim it was a routine, pre-arranged meeting, but the subject under discussion was anything but normal. After intense negotiations, the deal was clinched shortly after 9:30pm last night and was set to be announced this morning.

It has also emerged that the Financial Services Authority contacted a number of other banks in recent days over a possible merger, including HSBC. However, Lloyds was the only lender willing to take on HBOS without a large government guarantee.

As the negotiations were supported by the Prime Minister, the Treasury and the FSA watchdog, analysts said this suggested the usual competition rules would be suspended to allow the deal to proceed.

A Treasury source told The Scotsman the Enterprise Act would be amended "because there may be issues of competition and this is so serious we would want to override them". It is understood a public interest get-out clause would be used. The "key things" were "stability and protecting savers", the source said.

The London stock market was rocked by further turmoil yesterday, with the FTSE 100 index closing below 5,000 for the first time since June 2005. Meanwhile, on Wall Street, the Dow Jones Industrial Average shed 4.1 per cent as traders reeled from the US government's bailout of insurance giant AIG.

The HBOS deal would combine a UK workforce of about 145,000 and, although there was no confirmation of job cuts, sources warned losses could hit 40,000. Unions have warned they would not accept any compulsory redundancies.

Following the deal, Lloyds chief executive Eric Daniels is expected to take the helm of the enlarged group. The future of HBOS chief Andy Hornby, who joined three years ago, is unclear.



The merger could signal the end of decades of tradition – Bank of Scotland could lose its right to print banknotes if it loses its individual plc status.

News of the negotiations broke the day after shares in HBOS plummeted by 40 per cent. When the City became aware of the talks, shares in both banks gained great ground.

The combined bank would become a lending and savings giant, with more than £330 billion of mortgages and £300 billion of deposits. Analysts were split over whether the marriage would be good news for customers.

Ken Murray, the Edinburgh-based chief executive of Blue Planet Investment Management, said: "This is very good news. But there was never any need to worry in the first place, as the problems were greatly exaggerated."

Richard Hunter, head of equities at the stockbroker Hargreaves Lansdown, said: "You can see the logic between a tie-up between HBOS and Lloyds TSB. It would help stabilise both companies in terms of the jitters we are experiencing in the financial sector."

However, Ray Boulger, the senior technical manager at John Charcol, said: "It is bad news for consumers – any reduction in competition is nearly always bad news for consumers."

He said the big concern would be that most of the brands at HBOS – which includes Halifax, Bank of Scotland and Birmingham Midshires – would be collapsed into the brands of the company that was taking it over.

He said while Lloyds TSB's mortgage firm Cheltenham & Gloucester's rates generally had the edge over the ones being offered by Halifax, the HBOS group had a far wider product portfolio and was still lending to people with only a 5 per cent deposit, whereas C&G demands 10 per cent.

Mr Boulger also said that, while the Competition Commission was likely to raise concerns about a merger, it was unlikely it would block it.

Kevin Mountford, the head of banking at moneysupermarket.com, said: "A shotgun marriage of HBOS and Lloyds TSB would not be in the best interests of British consumers."

He said with Alliance & Leicester being taken over by Abbey's parent, Santander, and Nationwide taking over two building societies, there was a big reduction in competition and consumer choice.

Nic Clarke, an analyst at Charles Stanley Stockbrokers, said: "Lloyds might think that HBOS is historically very cheap – it was trading at £11 a share at its recent peak, but shares were worth just £1.40 after (yesterday] morning's sell-off. Maybe they saw that the price outweighed the negatives."

Rival banking giant HSBC was said to be interested in acquiring HBOS but was unwilling to pay anything for the bank's shares.

Keith Bowman, of Hargreaves Lansdown, said: "Lloyds finds itself in an opportune position with cash to spend on an acquisition in very difficult times. If the price is reasonably good, that will hopefully result in the Lloyds share price going forward."

HBOS staff admitted they were concerned for their jobs, while furious union leaders blamed "corporate greed" for bringing the financial sector to its knees.

Graham Goddard, the deputy general secretary of Unite, said: "With an economic downturn biting, thousands of staff at both banks will be very worried about the consequences of a merger. Unite is calling for urgent talks at the highest level with the banks. We will not accept any compulsory redundancies as a result of this merger."

Mark Lazarowicz, the MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, who has many HBOS staff among his constituents, said: "If HBOS does merge with Lloyds TSB, there will be a lot of concerns amongst those who work for the bank or whose jobs depend indirectly on the activities of HBOS.

"The Scottish base of HBOS is one of its strengths, and it is important that the headquarters operations of HBOS in Edinburgh, and elsewhere in Scotland, are not lost or diminished as a result of any merger."

Lindsay McIntosh

Attention turns to future of RBS – and nothing's ruled out

HBOS is on the brink of a bombshell "rescue" takeover by Lloyds TSB.

But even before that dust settles, the City is wondering about the prospects for that other – even bigger – Scottish-domiciled banking giant, Royal Bank of Scotland.

Is there another massive name to drop among Britain's big five banks in the wake of the mayhem being exported across the Atlantic from Wall Street? And could it be RBS?

The odds suggest that such a move on the Royal – some traders have mentioned HSBC to play the Lloyds TSB "rescuer" role – is pretty unlikely.

Does RBS need "rescuing"? The bank is a lot bigger than HBOS, much more geographically diversified, better-funded, and has far less dependence on the frozen money markets than its Scottish rival.

In addition, RBS has only a 6 per cent share of the troubled UK mortgage market compared to the 20 per cent share that many saw as HBOS's Achilles' heel in these difficult times.

RBS also recently raised three times more than HBOS on the stock market to beef up its balance sheet, £12 billion compared with £4 billion.

But analysts are saying nothing can be ruled out given the extraordinary failures in the western banking world this year, and particularly the past unprecedentedly traumatic few days. RBS is well-capitalised. But so was Merrill Lynch, so was HBOS...

They point to RBS's recent posting of a near-£700 million interim loss on the back of £5.9 billion of credit market- related writedowns.

Its management credibility under chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin and chairman Sir Tom McKillop has suffered accordingly.

RBS also has a heavy exposure to the United States via its Citizens Bank subsidiary.

One banking analyst last night said: "The British bank whose stock has tracked HBOS most closely in the past difficult year has been RBS.

"That is why there have been concerns that the speculators would target it, or perhaps Barclays, following the raid on HBOS shares."

And the HSBC rumour? Both it and RBS have a big American presence.

HSBC is big in Asia, and RBS, via its 5 per cent stake in Bank of China, has signalled its ambitions there.

The balance of percentages suggest RBS being taken out remains very unlikely. But, in this febrile climate, the truth is: who knows?

Martin Flanagan

The full article contains 3013 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

17/09/2008 23:24:19

How on earth can The Bank Of Scotland become history in 48 hours? Not fiction but fact.

We now have verification that the new company is to be called Lloyds-Halifax and one of Scotland's most venerable institutions has gone forever.

Not to mention the Edinburgh BoS HQ. Gone.

Unless Cat Man Brown-McAvitie gets a grip, next week we will have HSBC taking over the Royal Bank of Scotland. To be called what? Royal-HSBC ?

Within 14 days Scotland has no bank bearing it's namesake?

An utter disgrace.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 00:11:04


Oh Well there goes the Scottish notes, no-more our own £10 and £20 pound notes, no-more Scottish history printed on our notes, its a shame.

I remember quite well, my daughters growing up and asking,....

"Whys the Forth Road bridge on the £10 dad?"

"Who's that Man on the £10 dad?", etc, etc.

All history now 'HUH'?

AGAIN! Scotland succumbs to being the 'under-dogs'!

Bouts time we got a 'Grip' and fly our Flag with meaning!
3

Choose a nameDr_Joseph_Phd,

Tynescos 18/09/2008 00:11:19

Banks will throw themselves further into the maelstrom by transferring their back offices to cheaper offshore locations.

Result: Newly redundant former-employees cannot pay their 125% mortgages.

That's progress.
4

,

18/09/2008 00:14:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Willie,

Lochaber 18/09/2008 00:19:27
Having banked with them for 43years it is a sad day!
Yet were they in part to blame? Their profits over the last few years were obscene maybe a little of their legendary prudence might have avoided this disaster.
I hope now the FSA or government will put a stop to the short selling of spivs and speculators, theft if you or I was doing it!! I found George Osborne's comments on Newsnight fascinating when the Tory was clearly uncomfortable about criticising hedge funds. Cameron's new caring Conservative Party still looks after the greedy not the needy!!
I am sorry for the staff who face an uncertain future, and small shareholders who have lost out. For me I still have my savings, maybe the time has come to distribute them round various institutions or go to the whisky auction today and invest in real pleasure.
6

MB,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 00:20:35
This was all inevitable and was being predicted by some of the more astute observers of the market at least 2 years ago, if not more. Once we reached a point where you could go into your local bank branch and see nothing but ads for personal loans, credit cards, mortgages and consolidation loans instead of advertised savings rates, it was clear something had gone very wrong with the way banks do business. Mortgages at 4 or 7 or even 9 times the borrower's income should never ever have been allowed and yet at the time all we heard from the banking industry - and the media also - was that these were 'innovative financial products' that were intended to help consumers. How ironic.

I have sympathy for any of the average-paid employees at HBOS who will lose their jobs but I have no sympathy for the senior executives on large salaries and bonuses who created this mess. As for the unions asking for no compulsory redundancies and decrying corporate greed, where were they when record bonuses were being awarded and warped pay incentives were causing the banks to gamble with people's life savings? The unions, the banks, the media and the government have all been asleep on the job this time and it's the average small saver and worker who gets to pay the price.
7

Royster,

18/09/2008 00:20:49
Still not sure that it had to happen. A sad day for all. However the SNP's claim of an 'arc of prosperity' is looking a bit thin. Oil and HBOS were supposed to be the driver on an independent Scotland's economy. Oil is down some 30% and HBOS is now based in London in the space of a couple of months. Whether you like it or not, there is a real union dividend here as we are part of a varied, broad-based economy which can weather shocks.
8

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 00:26:58
6
MB
Aye of course, the unions could influence a merchant banks management policy.

So it's all their fault then eh?
9

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 00:30:16
Bill Jamieson of our very own Hootsman, made reference to there being a legal problem with BOS becoming extinct, and a poster on another thread had this to say:

"HBOS only has one banking subsidiary, Bank of Scotland plc. Halifax, IF, Birmingham Midshires etc are all trading names of the Bank of Scotland. There is only one banking license, the Bank of Scotland plc.

If Lloyds TSB does acquire HBOS, then it cannot close down the Bank of Scotland straightaway. An Act of Parliament is required to transfer the assets and liabilities of Bank of Scotland plc to another body. It is further complicated by the fact that Bank of Scotland itself is founded by Act of Parliament, and has the legal right to issue banknotes in Scotland. So the Bank itself is safe for a few years at least".

I don't know for certain whether this is correct, but something doesn't sit quite right.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 00:32:08
Money makes the world go around,
the world go around, the world go around,
Money makes the world go around,
it makes the world go round.

A mark, a yen, a buck or a pound,
a buck or a pound, a buck or a pound,
Is all that makes the world go around,
that clinking clanking sound,
Can make the world go round.

If you happen to be rich, and you feel like a night's entertainment,
You can pay for a gay escapade.
If you happen to be rich, and alone and you need a companion,
You can ring ting-a-ling for the maid.
If you happen to be rich and you find you are left by your lover,
Tho you moan and you groan quite a lot,
You can take it on the chin,
call a cab and begin to recover on your fourteen carat yacht.

Money makes the world go around,
the world go around, the world go around,
Money makes the world go around,
of that we both are sure,.....

........On being poor!.
11

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 00:33:11
7
You have a one track mind Royster.

There is a financial meltdown, and that is somehow good for the union.

Would you like a picture of a straw?
12

Richard1,

England 18/09/2008 00:35:36
London has now become the undisputed heavyweight champion of world finance,as for Scotland's bank,it made its money in England,the SNP are quiet,AS would have had to go running to England for a tax payer bailout if this had happened under independent scotland.the tax-payer bailout required would have been larger than Scotlands entire GDP.

HSBC-worlds second largest bank(makes up 40% of the Hang Sang stock market in HK(secondry listing)
barclays-world Finance giant,ADD lEHMAN NOW
TSB-Halifax,Giant with assets over £1 trillion.

AS for AIG,it is going to be sold off in pieces to EU/UK companies,America's day in the sun is over

RIP,WALL ST.
13

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 00:37:39
10
Charles, sorry about the failure of the IVF.

But does DYW possess a bowler hat, stockings and a kitchen chair...?
14

danielrober,

18/09/2008 00:38:39
Lets just give the bankers a break.

People gave the old industrialists a hard time when they asked for consolidation during the last energy crisis. The politicos said no and those companies no longer exist - or for that matter their jobs and taxable incomes.

So lets just chill out and let these guys get on with their jobs.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 00:46:10
12
The main Scots bank is the RBOS, their HQ is at Gogarburn, Edinburgh.

Err... the TSB Halifax IS the HBOS.

Look at the initials. Closely.
16

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 00:49:01
14
Good Morning Dan.

"Lets just give the bankers a break."

Just the one? Why not every major bone?
17

Richard1,

18/09/2008 00:50:36
15,HBOS,is only Scottish in name,it gets it's money from England,you cannot dispute that surely.

If HSBC takes over RBS,it will become the largest bank in the world.

AS,can do nothing,once like Wall ST the bears take hold,every Scottish bank would be fair game,BIGGER IS BETTER.

Scotland does not have the resources to hold off a attack,the short sellers now that.
18

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 00:51:08
Royster

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for all of the main Scottish Airports to be owned by a Spanish Company? Or is that an EU dividend?

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for Scotland to hand over 9% of the TV license fee for 3% of the production?

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for us to pay for 50-odd MPs to sit in Westminster so that they can vote largely on issues that only affect England?

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for a Scottish Prime Minister to court those who live in England at the expense of his fellow Scots?

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for our country's oldest bank -around before the Union - to be shelved in 24 hours?

Is it a 'Union Dividend' for thousands of Scots banking workers to lose their jobs?

On a day when even he Scotsman calls it "the darkest..", you seem to take some twisted pleasure in calling it a 'Union Dividend". Sicko.

19

Richard1,

18/09/2008 00:54:44
If this had happened under Scottish Independence the Scottish economy would have collapsed,the English would have bailed out their homeowners,Scotland would have seen the entire collapse of it's financial services,Scotland only has a GDP of about £120 bn,that is a drop in the ocean,you are not big enough to play with the big boys in finance as an independant country.
20

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 00:57:58
#14

NO! Lets not give the bankers a break. They along with their chums running hedge funds and private equity companies as well as the truly awful Govt in London have through their short termist, greed driven and strategically inept approach to business brought the economy of this country almost to its knees.

We should make it very clear to them and to the Govt that this intolerable.
21

,

18/09/2008 01:02:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 01:04:46
#19

If Scotland had been independent then it wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place.
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:07:34


Conan ~13,

Thankyou for your sentiments, it is very distressing, as are for some, the collapse of HBOS,

I can just imagine DYW dressed like you say, but,..

'Fish-net-stocking' and a glimpse of a thong, would sen my "shares" on an,..

'Upward Spiral' :))
24

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:07:50
21,London has a GDP of over £300bn(7.6m population)it is the richest part of the EU.

You cannot blame London traders,this is a global world,any traders could be involved from anywhere.

London imports £140bn p.a from the rest of the UK as it has the economy of a Small-medium sized country.

If the USA cannot stop it's companies going under,nobody can.

AS,got a short sharp lesson,he is irrevlevant to HBOS,they went to the FSA in London,and the PM,this Scottish Company went to the powerful to deal with the problem,AS was left on the sidelines twiddling his thumbs.
25

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 01:09:11
17
"The Bank of England is only English in name, its gets it's money from the rest of the world, you can't dispute that surely."

I can make asinine comments too.

But mine are post-modern and funny. Sometimes.
26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:12:35



El Gringo Loco, Al-Ikea,, ~27,

Stop talking sex, I have had none in the last 2weeks, incase DYW had been Pregnant!

It Would be a suicide 'job' if on top of this, I had lots of shares in the HBOS, :(
27

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:12:43
28,The Bank of England is backed by a £1.450trillion GDP.
28

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 01:16:05
19 Richard1

Where do you get your figures from?

The 2006 estimate for both countries puts England's per capita GDP (PPP) at $38,000 and Scotland's at $39,800.

The top ten countries with the highest per capita GDP (with thanks to Col Blimp), and according to the IMF in 2007, were:

Luxembourg
Norway
Qatar
Iceland
Ireland
Denmark
Switzerland
Sweden
Finland
Netherlands

No large countries, eh?

29

Edward,

18/09/2008 01:18:48
#26 Richard1,
Sorry but it WAS a small group of Hedge fund managers
that 'borrowed' blocks of shares from certain institutions and short traded them that caused HBOS downfall
Everyone and there aunty knows this and Brown has done nothing to take action against them!
30

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:20:19




"No one knows all. We were challenged by a festering anger. The challenge was accepted. And in the end, the seeds of greed destroyed themselves. As they always do. As they always will."


31

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:22:40
31,And where are the global Banks?

A:they don't have any.

PLEASE TELL ME,WHAT WOULD AN INDEPENDANT SCOTLAND HAVE DONE TODAY,IF THIS HAD HAPPENED.

Scotland does not have the balance sheet to borrow the money,your economy would have collapsed,in other words an Independant Scotland would not have HBOS anyway,after todays events,nor RBS,nor any lending of any sort to any Scottish company,the credit would have stopped,and England would have stopped you using the pound,because of the adverse affect on them,you would be a 3rd world country in 24hrs.
32

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 01:26:42
25
You seem to have a thing about thongs.

Gie us your real age. A ninety-four year old in a thong.

Shudder.

I suspect you are a young cad of fifty.



33

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 18/09/2008 01:28:54
If it's "Scotland's" best bank then shouldn't the Scottish national government have the final say. Not a bunch of greedy pr1cks on Threadneedle Street.
Salmond must order a 30 day cooling off period before any deal goes through.
Where's the idiot Labour opposition on this.
Oh, I foregot, they're "British."
34

somerferg,

perth 18/09/2008 01:33:22

#30 - Come on now old chap the Bank of England indeed the whole of Engerland has been funded by and keep floating by the oil of the shore of Scotland for the last 30 years. Were it not for that and the artificially created housing boom to make up for the destruction of any manufacturing base Engerland would have sunk beneath the waves of the Channel donkeys years ago.
35

Royster,

18/09/2008 01:33:43
#18. Andrew BOD. That's just obfuscation on your behalf. No one is suggesting the UK should be run like North Korea as you seem to be suggesting. Of course foreign companies will own some British companies. My point is that a broad-based economy is safer than a narrow economy. It may produce less spectacular returns but it is more reliable over the long-term and it is better for the people. Once again the Union has saved Scotland from disaster.
36

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 01:36:19
#26

I agree with #33. I would also argue that if Scotland had been independent already then this situation would never have arisen in the first place.
37

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 01:36:22
35
What is the word I am searching for Richard1?

Do not confuse the bull and bear market with the real economy.

Are we all going to starve because of this?

No.

Are overpaid and greedy people going to lose their jobs?

I hope so.

38

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:37:03
38,England Gdp is approx=£1.250trillion.

all Scottish oil from year dot approx -£350bn.

Who's gas has Scotland been using since the 1960,s,who's coal?
39

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 01:37:07
35 What good is a global bank if it collapses?
With the exception of Iceland, which of the countries listed is in a worse economic position than the UK?

England wouldn't have stopped us using the pound, Scotland's currency would now be Euros, affected by the sensible ECB.

London and Brown have increased the UK's reliance on the Financial sector, and contrary to what Brown says, this puts us in a WEAKER position than the rest of Europe.

HBOS should have been given financial assistance like AIG. However, Brown's poor judgement with Northern Rock meant he had no financial leverage left for HBOS.
40

Guga II,

Rockall 18/09/2008 01:37:26
Maggie Broon will get his place in history, as the man who destroyed the Bank of Scotland.

Plenty of help for Northern Rock, but nothing for the oldest bank in Scotland.

Born in 1695, killed by Maggie Broon.
41

BruBoy,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:37:53
This looks like financial suicide to me.

The combined company will have unfunded liabilities of £264 billion!

HBOS is currently finding it impossible to fund £197 billion from the money markets.

Let's compare this to the other big banks -:

HSBC - £10 billion surplus
RBS - £50 billion unfunded
Barclays - zero
Lloyds - £70 billion unfunded

Lloyds TSB is by far the least solvent of the big four banks.

What are these people thinking?

I've heard a lot the past few days about how cautiously Lloyds have been lending, with a debt-to-equity ratio of 1.43 I beg to differ.

Out of the five biggest US banks, none have a ratio higher than 1.08.

Lloyds-Halifax - 1.61

This can only end in disaster, I can't see any other outcome.

From too big to fail.....to too big to save.
42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:38:43


Conan ~36,

Correct! +or- a few! :(
43

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 18/09/2008 01:40:00
#4 Celtic4, USA -

The problem is with Halifax Bank of Scotland, not the Royal Bank of Scotland. Go back and read the article. The key paragraph is:

"The odds suggest that such a move on the Royal – some traders have mentioned HSBC to play the Lloyds TSB "rescuer" role – is pretty unlikely."

I hope this eases your mind.
44

The Strategist,

18/09/2008 01:41:08
#39

Don't be ridiculous. It's the union in the shape of the City, the Chancellor, the FSA and Govt which caused this mess in the first place. In particular it was Brown's refusal to include house price inflation in the figures used by the BoE to determine interest rates and the FSA's ignoring of the mortgage salary multiples which have done the damage.
45

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:43:42
45,Lloyds has £330bn in deposits thats why they can easily afford it.
46

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 01:44:26
42
Excellent riposte.

It's England's Gas.

That's a slogan there, you know.
47

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 01:47:11
Richard1 & Royster

BruBoy's post @ 45 makes for sober reading. Don't you get it? It's not sorted.
48

BruBoy,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 01:49:49
#49

They have £367 billion in total assets, of which £162 billion are customer deposits.

Their loan book is currently £229 billion. I'm afraid the figures in the above article are too simplistic to be of any use.

HBOS have assets of £681 billion but it's not done them much good.
49

Richard1,

18/09/2008 01:53:16
51,look you don't seem to be answering the question,if scotland were independant it would not have a global bank,HBOS has £400bn of liabilities backed by £120 GDP if scotland was independant,HBOD & RBS are too big for Independant Scotland.

So if you accept that the whole capital of Scotland would have to find new work.

The reason HBOS & RBS have survived is because thay are backed by the UK balance sheet £1450bn compared to £120bn,a drop in the ocean in financial markets.

Again i have not heard a word from you SNP supporters about what you would have done today with HBOS if you had been a independant country.
50

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 01:57:07
52
Are you a Banker, BruBoy?

Or in any way involved with financial services?

Because Banker shall ever be a term of opobrium for me after living through the Thatcher years.

And I think I'm being proved right.
51

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 02:01:19
53 Read 43. I'm not repeating it.

What I will repeat is that being a global bank does not necessarily save you from financial collapse. In fact, you are more prone to short term speculation.

Anyway your point about Lloyds has been blown out of the water by BruBoy.

Also, overall GDP figures mean nothing. HSBC accrues most of it's wealth from the Far East.
52

BruBoy,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 02:01:40
Conan,

You are correct, although I'm obviously not a very informed one, as my transfer of funds from HBOS to Lloyds last week would indicate.

Ah well, looks like another chaps payment fee coming my way.
53

Richard1,

18/09/2008 02:05:19
55,i am still waiting to know,whatt would an independant Scotland have done today with a Bank with liabillities 3 times the GDP of Scotland,what would you have done?
54

Richard1,

18/09/2008 02:06:44
The reason the already crisis hit USA economy can survive is because of the FED balance sheet.
55

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:09:07
53
Your premise is so full of fallacies.

Why would not Scotland have a global bank?

It has two at the moment.

Once the taxes of Scots companies are levied in Edinburgh...well then lets see..
56

Richard1,

18/09/2008 02:12:26
59,i will eplain it to you very carefully:

USA current accout deficit announced today for last quarter $185bn.

Fannie & Freddie bailout $6 trillion taken onto Fed balance sheet.

See a patern hear,they can afford to take these companies onto their balnace sheet,Scotland cannot.
57

Richard1,

18/09/2008 02:15:06
PLEASE SOMEONE,try and get a straight answer out of these SNP fools!

Goodnight.
58

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:15:51
57
Personally?
A rope and and handy hook for the management.

Lamposts are much to high these days.
59

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:21:04
#45. Doesn't it depend on the maturity of the liabilities?
60

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:21:38
60
I do not understand your post.

Are you mistyping English?

Or covering yourself with old copies of the Times in a comfort seeking, let's prop up the sky, Rule Brittania kind of way?
61

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 02:21:59
57 Your hypothetical question is nonsensical. If England were independent of Scotland, the liabilities related to each sovereign country would be faced by by each government. England's liability would be generally ten times that of Scotland. Work it out. Before Lloyds takeover, it was a British plc with HQ based in Scotland but with 90% of it's customers in England. In the event of an independent Scotland, a different arrangement might have been taken with by two companies within the group.

You can't just say what if.. and pretend that you're right. It's mere hypotheses. Deal with the here and now. But I don't think that you can.
62

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:22:16
#31. Those figures are mainly skewed by exchange rates.
63

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:25:42
#64. The UK is a great nation. Why not celebrate it? UK banks now taking over Wall Street. Why? Because they have taken a broad-based approach. Headline should read 'Union saves Scotland once again'.
64

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 18/09/2008 02:32:29
Does anyone know which institutions allowed their HBOS sahres to be borrowed in order to be short traded. It is all very well having these fancy scams, but it is not those who are playing this game who are taking the ultimate risk of the shares becoming worthless on bankruptcy, because we now have governments prepared to pump vast sums of taxpayers money in to prevent this happening. That is completely changing the ground rules. Short trading in certain types of businesses should be made illegal. I don't believe that honest institutions are doing this. I think it is international criminal money that is being laundered through the western stock markets. But it is not surprising that something was going to happen as America and Britain have been addiscted to credit, encouraged by greedy bankers and politicians who thought it was prospertity. It was all a house of cards presided over by a chancellor who was the emperor with no clothes. Gordon Brown will be forever remembered as the PM who presided over the worst banking crisis since the 1930s and caused the demise of the Bank of Scotland. The man is a Jonah
65

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:33:15
67
Yes lets celebrate a "Nation" that despises it's head.

Though the "parts" of that said Nation hate him for totally different reasons.

Straw clutching again Royster?
66

Royster,

18/09/2008 02:36:21
#69. Biting the hand that feeds you Conan?
67

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:37:25
70
I live in Scotland, Royster.

Do you?
68

BruBoy,

18/09/2008 02:38:40
#63, yes you're right, although the lending institution must take into account total liabilities of whoever they're lending to when deciding to lend or not. The other banks know exactly how much HBOS needs overall.

The exact figures are hard to come by, but I understand £100 billion+ is due in the next 6 months
69

Conan the Librarian™,

18/09/2008 02:48:36
70
No answer Royster?

70

Jobs4TheBoyz,

Edinburgh 18/09/2008 03:08:50
It's sad to see the BOS get obliterated in one fair swoop. Blaming the short sellers is a nonsense. HBOS was always at risk and when you have BIG banks falling across the pond we should not be surprised to see that our own financial institutions will also take a jolly good brusing.

The loss of jobs from Scotland is always sad to see. Many technology jobs were lost after the technology bubble burst in 2000 and we never recovered from that episode. The credit crunch is a bigger bubble that will rid the financial sector of the ill, weak and in-firm.

However, there will be a small justice in there for some of the big earners who have enjoyed a relatively easy entry into the lucrative world of financial services based on where they went to school and who they play golf with rather than any real talent or capability to do the job.

The merger with Halifax was a warning shot across the bows at the time. Unfortunately, nothing was learnt and now we face the sadness of losing an important scottish corporation in the blink of an eye.

The Edinburgh property market may just experience the ripple effects of the HBOS bombshell. Although the Solicitors cartel will no doubt do there best to weather the storm.

Lloyds already owns Scottish Widows and they will simply swallow up HBOS in the same way. The loss of the corporate HQ function will only hurt the very same group that took there eye off the ball in the first place.

The King is dead. Long live the King. Life will go on!
71

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 18/09/2008 03:24:56
Interesting that Hornby is an ex-grocer, and that Thatcher was a grocer's daughter.
72

democracy,

Scottish Borders 18/09/2008 03:36:42
#39 Royster, HBOS was already part of the UK business setup, so you are talking total nonsense and as far as Lloyds/TSB are concerned it is in their interest to safeguard their own company by expanding because they know only too well that they themselves are also open to the vagaries of the present global financial climate.

As far as Professor Hallett was concerned on Newsnight Scotland the emphasis on the downturn was less to do with BOS and more to do with the 'H' part, as BOS directors were not happy about the way the mortgage platform of the company were moving and indeed some resigned over it.

They eventually were to be proved correct, but as far as the Lloyds/TSB takeover are concerned, word has it they will be called Lloyds/Halifax and drop the more astute part,the 'BOS'.

So Royster, is this what you mean by the Union dividend, typical of a fervent Unionist to come up with utter garbage like that and hang all the prospective Scottish job losses, who cares eh!
"The Union Dividend"!!!
73

Keith Lagden,

18/09/2008 04:10:05
How many times have they done the same to their clients forcing bankruptcy, They deserve everything that comes their way. Poor sods who lost their stock is a bummer. The directors should SFA in handouts.

THere are going to be a lot of people and failed business's rubbing their hands in glee at this outcome.

Ahhh revenge is a dessert BEST served COLD.

Let thi sbe a lesson to following the American Way. What ever happend to Scottish prudence.

Nuff SED
74

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/09/2008 05:19:32
Bye Bye HBOS, Hello Lloyds-Halifax.

Thats what happens when you let a glorified grocery clerk like Andy "Asda" Hornby run a bank. I guess he will have to go back to stacking shelves.

You don't need a crystal ball to realize all the head office jobs in Edinburgh are now toast.

All this speculation about RBOS is just that. RBOS is not nearly as tied to the toxic UK mortgage market. Look for the next bit of trouble amongst those with large shares of the mortgage market. Someone like Nationwide.

Or perhaps one of the Insurance companies with to much Mortgage backed bonds on their books.
75

Royster,

18/09/2008 05:24:55
#78. The union dividend comes from the fact that the bank has survived. At least for Scotland, it's better than going under.
76

,

18/09/2008 05:27:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Madbagpypr,

STEORNABHAGH,LEODHAS,NA h-EILEAN SIAR 18/09/2008 05:28:12
I'm sure I read an article somewhere about speculations on a HSBC merger and it sounds grim.
HSBC are colostomy bags who don't care one jot about people. In fact they just had the rather dubious distinction of having one of the worst customer service departments in the WORLD.
I'm sure there's a couple thousand Indians in New Delhi that would disagree with that statement about their employer.
One Bruichladdich doon, one tae go.
78

Royster,

18/09/2008 05:34:52
But Mr Salmond is an economist. Didn't he see this coming? Surely, he could have phoned up HBOS because he is all-seeing and all-knowing.
79

TommyKaye,

UK 18/09/2008 05:36:00
Pensions Plundered, Stocks Slumping, Gordon's Dead-Hand

Some commentators (who should know better) warn that in these times of economic turbulence we should keep Gordon at the helm. It is a desperate line seized on and spun by his few remaining supporters. Who, they ask, knows the economy better than Gordon Brown? This is repeated so often you would think it a truism. Fraser Nelson pointed out some time ago that all Gordon knows about the economy is how to tax it. Look at how the stock market has performed during his chancellorship. Guido has pointed out before how much better other G7 stock markets have performed in comparison. Gordon's plundering of our retirement pensions to fund his profligacy has sucked capital out of pensions to pour into his social engineering.

In the ten years prior to May 1997 before Gordon got his hands on the levers of the economy the FTSE rose from less than 2000 to more 4000. After a decade of Gordon's stewardship of the economy the stock market has gone nowhere. Pensions have had no capital gains, what gains they have made have been taxed. During his time we have had the first run on a bank for a century. As the FTSE teeters at the 5000 level those who are retiring soon have a terrible future ahead, whereas at one time the British private pension system was a model for other countries. UK stocks under performance compared to other countries is partly due to Gordon looting pension funds to pay for current spending.


80

Royster,

18/09/2008 05:42:27
#85. Not a great fan of Gordon but the housing market saw 10-years of steady growth thanks to the independent Bank of England setting interest rates. People just got too greedy and thought it would last forever, including HBOS. This isn't Gordon's fault.