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'If the Scottish Parliament continues in existence, it means dismantling the UK'



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WENDY Alexander was 'profoundly unwise' to call for a referendum without the support of the Labour Party hierarchy, says Tam Dalyell
THE seeds were sown in 1970. In the unexpected defeat of the Labour government, a young Donald Dewar, later Wendy Alexander's patron and mentor, lost the seat in South Aberdeen, where he had done so well to beat the popular Conservative, Priscilla,
Lady Tweedsmuir.

The SNP had been contained. Labour had regained Hamilton, so spectacularly won for the SNP by Winnie Ewing in 1967.

But Mr Dewar, unable to find a seat for another seven years, became the focus of a group within the party who sought a solution to their understandable discontent, and Scotland's industrial problems, by setting up a Scottish Assembly. They were hugely assisted by the panic created in the Labour Party by Margo MacDonald's victory in Glasgow Govan at a famous by-election.

But the devolutionists made one false assumption – that if they got their assembly, it would be dominated by Labour forever. Predictably, and predicted by me and the Labour "Vote No" campaign in the 1978-79 referendum – and as foreseen by Eric Mackay, a great, shrewd, fair, and vehemently pro-assembly editor of The Scotsman – this would simply not be the case.

Sooner or later, a Labour administration in Edinburgh would fall out of favour. Confronted with this possibility, there was a disbelieving shrug of the shoulders, and the observation that the Tories (who had had a majority of seats and a majority of the popular vote in Scotland in 1951) would have their turn.

What few in the Labour Party forecast was that the disenchantment with Labour would turn people in the direction of the Nationalists rather than the Tories. It is conceivable that a devolution settlement would have worked if all parties had shown an astonishing degree of goodwill and had universally been prepared to accept that the Union was of paramount importance and superseded all other interests and considerations.

But this was far from the case. There was a party whose raison d'être was focused on dismantling the United Kingdom and challenging the Union. As soon as they became the likely alternative to an unpopular government, the seeds of the present problems of the Labour Party sprouted into healthy plants.

One crucial development which has gone almost unnoticed was, from the unionist point of view, the crazy actions of Margaret Thatcher, and her secretary of state, Ian Lang, aided by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, then under-secretary of state at the Scottish Office, in killing off Lothian region, Strathclyde and the other increasingly successful big local-government units. Looking at Labour's present troubles, I identify the undermining of local government as a major cause of electoral adversity.

No-one can be surprised at the fandangle into which the occupant of Downing Street and the Labour leader in Scotland have become immersed. Their interests and political constituencies are fundamentally different.

Gordon Brown must take account of the feeling encapsulated by the vox-pop man from Southampton who told the Today programme at the beginning of the week: "Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."

Wendy Alexander has to consider the situation if Mr Salmond becomes any more popular – people vote in referendums not necessarily on what purports to be the issue, however weighty it may be for the constitution, but on whether you like people as they appear on television.

I think that Ms Alexander may be right to call for a referendum, but profoundly unwise not to clear it with her colleagues in the Labour Party first – or, as we are led to believe, with her own brother, Douglas Alexander, the International Development Secretary.

On Tuesday, The Scotsman published a letter from me arguing for a fourth question, in addition to independence, additional powers or the status quo.

My phone has been choked with support for asking: "Do you wish the Scottish Parliament to continue in being?"

I am one of the few MPs or ex-MPs who have not criticised MSPs. But I believe people should be aware that if the Scottish Parliament now continues in existence, it does mean, sooner rather than later, the dismantling of the British state.

All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want.

• Tam Dalyell is a former Labour MP.





The full article contains 738 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 May 2008 8:21 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

08/05/2008 23:13:40

I think the only way Gordon Brown can survive as far as his political legacy in Scotland is concerned is to seize the thistle.

If Gordon Brown were to take leadership and initiative and propose bringing forward UK legislation for a vote on:-

1. Status Quo.
2. Federalism - The United States of Britain.
3. Full Independence.

I think the majority of voters would go for option "2".

In a heartbeat Gordon would cure many of his ills.

But then again McAvities Cat is stuck in a Downing Street bunker.
2

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 00:09:41
1- Wee Angus - The United Dominions of Britain.
3

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 01:19:33
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."

A very valid comment, however Alex Salmond has been talking a hell of a lot of sense recently (FMQs yesterday) and focussing on the issues that matter to the man in the street. For instance, the price of road fuel to mention but one thing.

Anyone who provides a potential antidote to the 11 years of labour madness certainly gets my support at the moment.

Don't get me wrong. I do not think the SNP are perfect, and would probably vote against independance when the time comes. However, labour have caused so much damage to the whole of the UK that we badly need someone to do something about it before it is too late. Alex Salmond seems to be on the right track so lets support him and let him do his best to redress the balance---at least for the next couple of years or so until we get a proper government in Westminster.
4

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 09/05/2008 01:49:01
Tam Dalyell.. how did you get out of the crypt?

Just kidding, laddie, I was so confused by your comments that I thought I had linked to an archive from the 1970's.

Just shows that you can take the lad out of Westminster, but you can never remove the stain of Westminster from the lad.
5

A Reasonable Voice,

09/05/2008 02:13:33
People all over the world are paying closer attention to Scotland now that the SNP are in power. Ex-pat Scots in America and Scottish Americans that I know are following very closely. Some are for all out independence, but many (especially Scottish Americans also of English ancestry) are hoping for a federal solution to the U.K. I tend to agree with this latter group. There is no reason to break up the Union, but certainly reason to reform it.

Bring on full U.K. federalism, and let's finally see that English parliament!
6

indune1,

Canada 09/05/2008 02:38:56

6 - And don't forget we ex-pats in Canada who. with all due respect, are more attuned to the political system and structure of the UK since we are modelled on it.

7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 09/05/2008 03:49:37
Its good to see the even old labour dinosaurs like Tom Dalyell are now recognizing the inevitibility of Scottish Independence.
8

democracy,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 04:01:45
If Tam Dalyell is correct, then it IS the end of the UK as we knew it. GOOD!!! because there is no way the Scottish people will abandon their Holyrood parliament to revert back to being totally dominated by Westminster and totally stripped of all our revenues
for eternity,and would prove to be one of the most retrograde steps EVER by any country in the world in the history of the planet!!!!
9

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 09/05/2008 04:11:28
Hello Scottish Borders,

I see, you don't want Westminster to 'totally dominate' you, but you've no problem with the EUP and unelected EU bureaucrats doing the dictating and dominating.

How very enlightened of you.

Cheers from the Rockies
10

Copper,

Falkirk 09/05/2008 04:25:57
Tam from Linlithgow should have seen by now that the the boarded up shops are the result of Liebor Coonselors being given Holiday Homes in Spain for the planning approval of the Trading Estate
He was in power when Judith Hart wanted a firm to move to Carlisle

Perhaps the main problem is His Liebor Porty is AND HAS BEEN FOR MANY YEARS ... CORRUPT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
11

Saltire,

China 09/05/2008 04:39:04
Neanderthal
Maybe it is better to be part of the EU with a seat at the table and a very small voice than a part of a part of the EU without any voice at all.
Independence will not solve all Scotland's problems but will let Scotland better target any resources at the particularly Scottish problems which cannot be tackled by Westminster where the needs of the UK as a hole take precedence.
12

Saltire,

China 09/05/2008 04:40:29
"Hole" oooops I meant to write whole - or did I? :-)
13

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 07:06:21
Tam Dalyell, the great socialist hero speaking from his castle last night..
14

mike3,

midlands 09/05/2008 08:00:16
If something has worked reasonably well for hundreds of years then there can't be much wrong with it. Certainly nothing that needs a step change... unless of course the step change was intended to solve a rather different problem. Shortage of brain cells, bossy boots and unintended consequences?
15

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 08:01:24
#10 Neanderthal75

"but you've no problem with the EUP and unelected EU bureaucrats doing the dictating and dominating."

I'm interested in this dictating and dominating. Perhaps I'm missing something. As far as I know, the EU doesn't decide how much tax I pay, which days my rubbish is collected, when the local school will be repaired, whether Donald Trump can build his golf course, whether my broadband service will ever improve, which countries we invade, where the local police erect their speed cameras, the medicines that doctors prescribe, or the route of the new Edinburgh tram.

Please elaborate!
16

Scotland to prosper...,

09/05/2008 08:01:33
I'm afraid that for all Tam Dalyell's wisdom, he has not picked u on one important factor.

Alex Salmond continues to gain in popularity not through constantly harping on about Independence, but by implementing popular policies and actually listening to the people.

I would have imagined Mr Dalyell to be more in tune with the SNP's position than what Labout have become.

It has always astonished me that as a socialist, Mr Dalyell is against a nation of people being allowed equal global rights.
17

lachlan,

09/05/2008 08:07:22
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."
i notice similar comments on this subject from various sourses. it as if the scottish people are not able to make descision themselves.was the scottish people given all the facts when they lost their independence all those years ago?maybe people want a change and possibly wish to be an indepenent member of a larger more loose union.wonder what that could be?
18

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:15:16
The United States of Britain!

Sounds good to many of us! It has the benefits of both worlds, and no drawbacks (none that have prevented many successful federations around the world).

Only numpties think that independence is the only, or best, alternative to a Union that is well past its sell-by date.
19

gus1940,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:22:24
Good.

For once the dreaded quote marks although enclosing a personal opinion put forward as news actually tell the truth.
20

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:28:41
#21 It amazes me that someone with such wishy washy opinions could be so aggressive in promoting them.

I take it you're a liberal?
21

Jimmy the Pie,

09/05/2008 08:29:01
This article is typical Labour.

WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU. DO AS WE TELL YOU.


Aye right!!
22

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/05/2008 08:30:58
#17 mike3 "Certainly nothing that needs a step change"

Why do you think Scottish independence constitutes a step change? While I know that most nationalists, whether Scottish or British, see Scottish independence as a massive, emotion-driven event, some of us see it as something more pragmatic. Most day-to-day parts of government have been administered separately in Scotland throughout the period of union. Adding the remaining powers and a political dimension is unlikely to affect people's lives in any dramatic way, unless the colour of your passport is central to your existence.

But as someone from the Midlands, do you not think it would be good for Britain as a whole to have some kind of counterpoint to the London-centric economic and political structure we have now?
23

Richardinho,

09/05/2008 08:34:42
I've always thought that socialism and feudalism were much closer together than was commonly supposed.
As Tam Dalyell sits back in his socialist retirement castle worrying that Scots might vote for independence by mistake, it makes me think this even more!
24

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:45:01
this country has been in a state of dismmantleship since the day they joined the EU
who would have ever thought that the people of this country
would be told what they could and what they couldn't do by a bunch of foreigners,it would be much better to be seperate from england,at least we might still be able to salvage what is left of Scotland
let us hope that the labour goverment is never in power again they have destroyed almost everything
25

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/05/2008 08:47:21
as above
26

Independence? Bring it On!,

09/05/2008 08:51:08
Another old Etonian telling us what to think.
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:58:41
#21 Richardino.

When you've got your rudeness off your chest, perhaps you'll explain why wanting a Unites States of Britain is 'wishy-washy'? Nothing vague about it.
28

Ken S.,

Reading 09/05/2008 09:02:54
#1 Angus Ogg,

"..a vote on:-
1. Status Quo.
2. Federalism - The United States of Britain.
3. Full Independence."

Succinctly summed up.

However, in reality your list consists of only two options. This is because there is growing strength of feeling for an English Parliament to correct the democratic deficit south of the border that has been created by devolution. In endeavouring to resolve a previous deficiency, it has created a new and greater one, up with which we will not put !

A choice of status quo would therefore be a preliminary for federation.

How about an option for reinstatement of the Union, i.e. abolition of devolution in its current form ?
If the answer is that no-one in Scotland would vote for abolition of Holyrood, then that strengthens the point that your only alternatives are federation or independence.

I'm sure you would be successful in either of these outcomes.
29

Venachar,

09/05/2008 09:03:51
Slightly different approach in this epistle than his previous letter. Now we are saying it's all Donald Dewars fault and Maggies fault.

I would prefer if Tam Dalyell was more annoyed with the remark " Brown we don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister". This is a racist remark. If I said I don't want a P*ki as my MP I would most likely be in trouble.
Whether we like Gordon Brown or not he is a duly elected member of the British Parliament and the leader of his party. It says more about the english electorate than anything.
If Scots and Scotland are so bad why are there so many southerners moving to Scotland?

PS I was censored for using the word P*ki - See what I mean.
30

kirk 1,

09/05/2008 09:05:23
I don't think we're sleepwalking, more like awakening from the disasterous misadministration of our country by the people we foolishly trusted to look after us.
31

Nikostratos,

09/05/2008 09:07:29
#31

Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish indepenence which seems to be gaining support.
32

Scotish Exile,

09/05/2008 09:24:36
'If the Scottish Parliament continues in existence, it means dismantling the UK'.....is that not the obvious assumption if the Scottish Parliament actually works?
33

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:34:53
I really do detest this man, he has had nothing whatsoever to contribute to Scottish life and should be regarded as the very worst kind of Scot.

His aricle above tells us what exactly. Well it tells me that he is nothing other than a disgusting relic that should be stuffed and stood in a museum next to the dinosaurs.

Incidentally Tam is a decendent (i believe) of either James Loch or Patrick Sellars (not sure which) who cleared the Highlands!
34

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 09/05/2008 09:43:47
Wise words from a true patriot who has deep concern for the well-being of Scotland and the Scottish people.

If only our Parliament consisted of MSPs of the calibre of Tam Dalyell, we would have a gathering of people who would not have to resort to insult, sneers and petty point scoring to hide their lack of managerial skills or the ability to converse with suitable gravity. Salmond and Alexander seem to think attack is the best form of defence? Well, it certainly saves having to come up with the answer to serious questions! True leadership? What a bunch of daisies! A bit like something I read earlier, really!
35

Guga II,

Rockall 09/05/2008 09:44:23
I thought Tam Dalyell was dead. He might as well be as his ideas, like his socialism, died a very long time ago.

With a bit of luck, the Scottish parliamnt will mean an end of the YUK. This archaic union belongs in the past, just like Dalyell.
36

Jackie Priest,

09/05/2008 09:47:10
"All I ask is people don't sleepwalk into something that actually they don't want."


Which is what the whole history of the union has been about.

The Scots didn't want it and they never have.

We haven't been sleepwalking these past 300 years. We've been in a coma.

And now we're waking up.
37

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:48:56
Wise words where exactly?

Perhaps you could point me to even one line in the above article that has anything of importance to say whatsoever?

'deep concern for the well-being of Scotland'???

His only concern was to keep Scotland in the Union at all costs and that has never been in the true interest of Scotland.

It seems some people still are in a dream and you are one of them!
38

Steve,

Bo'ness 09/05/2008 09:50:52
I see Tam regularly, shuffling around Tescos in his tracksuit bottoms and slippers, examining the groceries over his specs.

A sad shell of a once respected politician.
39

Melly,

Sussex 09/05/2008 09:51:12
Tam you`ve been sleepwalking ever since you joined the liebour party and gave up you Lordship. We are all wide awake and know where we are heading - towards 2010 and onwards.
40

Douglas Eckhart,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 09:53:29
I cannot beleive that Tam 'fae the bins' is actually still arguing for the abolition of the scottish parliament - what centrury is this guy living in? Indeed, what planet is he actually living in? Certainly not the same planet as the rest of us.

Amazingly, he is still stuck in the 1998 yes/no devolution debate - wake up, the rest of us have moved on!

Dear oh dear..

41

acanthus,

09/05/2008 09:53:51
Staggeringly arrogant to assume that Scots cannot make up their own mind.

Unlike the Labour vote for 30 years of course who have been given all the facts by Labour..his beloved party...what a joke!

42

Frank . G .,

NSW Australia 09/05/2008 09:54:06

My wife and I left Scotland in 1963 for Australia.

Scotland has never left my wife and I.

We are Scottish , not British or Australian.

Our children and our grandchildren are Australian.

Wish to God we could vote for Scotland's Independence.

Rolf Harris still can vote in Australian Political Elections and he's been living in engerland for over 200 years.

Ach well! no' tae worry, ye'll no' be needin' oor votes ,
Scotland's great future's gon' back tae oor great past at last,

Take Care (Ma ain folk!) God Bless you a', an' the SNP.

"Jimmy the Pie, you an' yer likes are Scottish legends ,
thank you one an' all.

"Here's tae us an' wha's like us!"

(Bob 10 Helensburgh.(pronounced Helensburgh in Oz)

"Awa' 'n bile yer heid son!'








43

European Scot,

09/05/2008 09:56:29
34 Nikostratos

"Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish indepenence which seems to be gaining support."

Like the population of the USSR deciding on the Independence of Latvia ?
Scottish Independence is a subject for Scotland only.
Let's try and keep closer to reality !
44

danielrober,

09/05/2008 10:02:37
I advise Tam Dalyell to be careful about opinions from Southampton. No town in the UK has receavied so much pressure from new immigrants as this city, over the last ten years. Many of the residents have been forced out, into surrounding towns by high property prices. This has left a core of people mainly former council house people and new mega rich non-doms (+ groupies). I knew more than a few people who ran english language course there, 1999-2001. This person might have been one of the newbies. Rich, white and hiding for their own 1countries tax authorities.

But glad to have some information from the 1970's, as we do seem to be repeating the same end game for the Labour government.
45

Jackie Priest,

09/05/2008 10:04:58
#45

Frank, if you've still got British citizenship you CAN vote in Scottish elections and any referenda that occur.

You should check out your situation. I'm pretty sure that even if you no longer have British citzenship you would get it pretty easily if you're Scottish by birth.

Inquire at your nearest British consulate, or see what you find on the internet.
46

danielrober,

09/05/2008 10:05:40
45 Frank . G .,NSW Australia

With respect sir these islands have changed a bit in the last 45 years. These days its all about EU integration and competition not isolation. With respect sir glad you are enjoying your life in Oz.
47

capy,

leith sur le mer 09/05/2008 10:31:25
while i agree that all governments run there course, and labour would one day loose an election north of the border i bet they did not think it would be quite so soon.another point worth thinking about is the effect that the untimely death of john smith had on the uk political scene. he would have won the election and the new labour experiment may have been strangled at birth. then people like me may still be labour party members. i left and now vote snp as do many like me.i also think that the acceleration towards independence will partly be driven by attitudes south of the border,some of them as other posters have pointed out none to pleasant.devolution was supposed to be the "settled will of the scottish people",but the independence jeannie is well and truly out the bottle and the cork will not go back in. interesting times indeed
48

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 10:34:20
Frank G. (45): "My wife and I left Scotland in 1963 for Australia. Scotland has never left my wife and I.
We are Scottish , not British or Australian."

If you have been in Australia for 45 years, then, in my view, it is disrespectful to Australia for you to view yourselves as anything but Australians.
49

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:35:09
18 says

"Perhaps I'm missing something. As far as I know, the EU doesn't decide how much tax I pay, which days my rubbish is collected, when the local school will be repaired, whether Donald Trump can build his golf course, whether my broadband service will ever improve, which countries we invade, where the local police erect their speed cameras, the medicines that doctors prescribe, or the route of the new Edinburgh tram."

Yes you are missing a lot.

Tax. Contributions to EU budget costs every Scot 2p/£ income tax. VAT levels are determined at EU level, and also prevent us from having local sales tax.

Rubbish. Cuts in collections to enforce recyling is a direct result of EU landfill directive.

Trams. Uk government policy as part of EU carbon targets

Wars. UK forces are in Kosovo as part of an EU force
50

Ken S.,

Reading 09/05/2008 10:36:19
#34 Nikostratos,

"Perhaps we should add option 4 which is a U.K wide referendum on scottish independence which seems to be gaining support."

Can't challenge the principle; potential divorce affects us all. However, for practical reasons it would be better left as a Scotland vote at this stage as, despite all the enjoyable histrionics on this site, the fact remains that a higher proportion of Scottish population have given measured thought to the position, one way or the other, than is the case with the population of England. I'll readily confess that there is a lot of knee-jerk "Oh well, sod-off you scroungers" attitude south of the border, egged on by such as the Daily Mail. If there were a UK wide referendum,this lack of calm objectivity could even result in Scotland etc opting to stay and England voting to ditch all you unruly devolved folk! I'm neither specifically for nor against Scotland's independence. Why I participate here is because it would be sad if the eventual outcome was decided by hotheadedness on either side rather than rationality and to point out that status quo is not an option because it is in itself a forerunner of further separation. If that is what people are after, then no probs. Just don't stumble away from the Union, if you want to revive it, because you think you can have the cherry and the bun whilst leaving England to nibble at a morsel of stale bread. We want cherry & bun too!
51

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 10:38:00
30 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 09/05/2008 08:58:41

You keep ratlin' yer cage aboot Federation, but please, Oh please, convince us that federation is far better than being a Sovereign Independent State, with all the rights and responsibilities inculcated there in!

As I have said before Fed your a closet Onionist, out to muddy the waters.

You have still not retracted the keech you spouted yesterday about 'enforced federations', and what is your take on the disintegration of the Belgian Federation?

I await your reasoned, intelligent response....Oh sorry you have already disqualified yourself from 'intelligent debate' as you contend that 'intelligent debate' is impossible when you have already decided what the outcome should be!!!

Your words not mine.

Begone Troll!!!
52

kimba,

09/05/2008 10:39:52
Tam Dalyell is telling you how it is,for all those who still want a British passport in years to come,you had all better stand up and be counted before it's to late!
53

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:44:37
-48. Wrong i think. It is SNP policy to limit participation in the referendum to Scottish residents only. This is to deliberately exclude Scots who live in other parts of the UK, and says it all. Look for the SNP to try for a referendum on the same basis as the Holyrood list so as to also include non Britsih EU citizens who are more likely to support them (they will be after scottsih passports). The SNP definition of a Scot is quite simple - the more likely you are to vote for the SNP, then the more you are a Scot.

I would hope that the Labour party will oppose any referendum which either allows non UK passport holders to vote, or excludes any Scot entitled to Scottish citizenship who lives in the UK.
54

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 09/05/2008 10:47:35
Tam Dalyell's long standing opposition to any form of Scottish devolved government is well documented.

Mr. Dalyell's mischievous suggestion for a fourth question to be included in any future Independence Referendum asking IF "the Scottish Parliament should continue in being" is one of the most constitutionally dangerous ever suggested?

IF, such a question was ever included in any
Referendum, and the Scots were perversely convinced for a second time in their history to abolish the Scottish Parliament, it would be disasterous, and only set the hares running again with even more constitutional wrangling!

The only beneficiaries would be the Nationalists with only one inevitable outcome!
55

Jackie Priest,

09/05/2008 10:50:34
#50

Anyone born in Scotland who retains British citizenship can vote in Scottish elections.

Of course they should be able to. It's their country.

#52

That's just about the stupidest thing you've said in a while, Fairfax. Do you think second or third generations of Asians in Britain should sever all roots with India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc? You don't think they should be allowed to celebrate their heritage? You think they should be under some kind of constraint to consider themselves British and nothing else? You think they are being disrespectful to Britain when they retain the language, customs, religion, music etc of their ancenstral homes?

That's a very dangerous point of view.

Unionists bear a strong resemblence to the Borg. They think that everyone should be assimilated. Their views on things like identity and culture are so shallow that a sparrow couldn't bathe in them.
56

fiferjohn,

09/05/2008 10:55:19
yes kimba i will stand up and be counted before it's to late.to late for Scotland to lose all her resources being plunder to fund a corrupt and deceitful Westminster that doesnt care about Scotland or her people only what it can take from her.
i will stand up and be counted and bring an end the this unequal union.
57

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 10:59:59
30 & 55. Don't you need to define what you are talking about? I would argue we already live in a Federal State.

Textbooks divide Government into Judiciary, Legislature and Executive.

Judiciary; Hasn't Scotland always been 100% independent until we put the ECJ over us? More so than any US state at least?

Legislature; What more powers do you think should be devolved to Holyrood to make it Federal? I suppose this is a tax question, but most Federal systems rely on local expenditure taxes which are not allowed by the EU VAT system. Note we gave up the right to declare war to the UN in 1946, so if you think wars are illegal then this is already a matter for the International Court at the Hague?

Executive. 70% of our laws already come from the European Council Executive via Directives, so surely by volume at least we are already Federal in this area?
58

Boggle fey the Bog,

09/05/2008 11:00:28
53 New Town Resident,09/05/2008 10:35:09 & again at 57

Boll-ox!!

VAT levels are decided at Westminster, I've pointed this out to you before, why do you always come on here and talk keech?

Rubbish Collections aye yer talkin rubbish oan that, cuts in collection have been implemented in England to try to reduce the size of the increase in Cooncil Tax doon there, fcuk all to do with landfill or recycling!!!
Although it does make economic and fiscal sense to recycle.

Trams UK gov policy, maybe, but NOT EU policy, Kyoto and carbon reduction commitments brought about by that INTERNATIONAL treaty, do your research!!

Wars UK forces were in Kosovo as part of NATO,NATO handed over the peacekeeping duties to an EU led Coalition, which includes UK servicemen.

If you really want t put War on the agenda, then Afghanistan and the totally Illegal Imperialist action taken by the USA and the UK in Iraq, is a good starting place. I suppose that's OK as it has nowt to do with the EU.

Voting Rights, as any referendum held in Scotland originating from Holyrood is classed as 'Local', then everyone on the Electoral roll for local government elections would be eligible to vote, this would also include any ex-pats that are registered and entitled to vote in local elections, as if you ain't registered you can't vote!!!

from the draft bill ...

"(3) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to vote as electors at a local government election in any electoral area in Scotland"

You really are a plonker.

59

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 11:03:48
59 - please see my post 57. Am i right or not about residents only?
60

,

09/05/2008 11:08:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

Teamdroid,

09/05/2008 11:20:24
Dalyell - "Gordon Brown must take account of the feeling encapsulated by the vox-pop man from Southampton who told the Today programme at the beginning of the week: "Brown! We don't want a Scotchman as Prime Minister."

Not just Gordon Brown, but all Unionists like yourself must take account of this feeling, Tam! You simply don't get the fact that the majority component of the UK - England - is hostile to politicians from the other components running the show. Read the commentary sections of papers like the Telegraph: full of references to the "Jock mafia" and so on - even the faintly Scottish tinge to Blair is resented. Recall the ease with which Kinnock was labelled the "Welsh windbag", and consider the effectiveness that epithet had in stalling swing voters in England in 1992. Try to even imagine a son or daughter of Ulster - that most British part of the UK - in Number 10.

These sentiments are not those of an extreme minority, but are very much part of mainstream thinking in England. It's not racism, it's simply about being the elephant in the room who thinks the little elephants now have their own rooms and have no right to dictate his furniture layout.

The point is, Tam, spiritually the Union is dead. Such sentiments would have no place in a happy, successful Union. Time to move on.
62

New Town Resident,

09/05/2008 11:22:06
62.

VAT bands are agreed and set at EU level. Do you disagree? For example one of the exemptions we have kept in the Lisbon deal is to keep zero rates for newspapers and also for childrens clothes? The European Commission website "taxation and the European union" explains how this works.

The EU has set up fines based on recycling and use of landfill rates. Do you disagree? Our rubbish policy is determined by the need to avoid paying these fines. I'm not arguing whether the policy is right or wrong, just pointiong out who is charge?

Kyoto is implemented in the UK via EU directives. right or wrong?

Thanks that you agree Kosovo is now an EU operation. Afghanistan is and always was under UN mandate and so legal - you agree? It is matter of legal dispute whther the Iraq invasion was under UN mandate or not. If it is the view of a future independent Scottish government that it was illegal (i.e. not under a UN mandate) then I look forward to the Hague case being brought. I think we would have some common ground at least in taking pleasure at Mr. Blair being behind bars! However current operations in Iraq are under a new UN mandate post the invasion and so are 100% legal - do you agree?

Thanks for confirming my point that the SNP think foreigners (non British citizens) should vote in the future of Scotland, but that Scots who live in England should not. I would say that is somewhat "keech"

63

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:27:31
60. Pleased to hear it,but there are those in scotland who wish to be part of one of the most powerful nations in the world,if you and your cronies wish to be a little fish in a big pond good luck to ya!
64

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 11:28:34
Tam Dalyell? Vichy Tom would have voted for union in 1707 and he and his ilk have been selling Scotland out ever since.
65

Tom R,

09/05/2008 11:30:47
Tam Dalyell should recognise-as he may well do-that when he said that devolution would prove to be "a motorway to independence with no exits", he was totally accurate.

The only issue is how long it will take, and I assume that all he is now seeking to do is to delay what he and I (with delight) regard as the inevitabilty of Scottish independence.
66

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:34:11
67. No we are not hostile to either scots or welsh or even ulstermen "running the show"as you but it,what we are "hostile"to is being second class citizens in our own country, if it's good enough for scotland & wales to have free presciptions etc why not England!
67

kimba,

09/05/2008 11:37:02
71. You may find scottish independence is a long way off yet,hope you are a patient soul!
68

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 11:47:09
Sleep walking????

I think auld Tam will find the Scottish population have now awakened to the mess he and his type have created in Scotland over the last 50 years!!!

He's a dinosaur who has no place in a modern and vibrant Scotland!
69

fiferjohn,

09/05/2008 11:50:58
kimba Britain stopped being a powerful nation long ago
when Scotland becomes independent it will finish Britain of completely.they will be kick out of the g8 and the security council lose a lot of say in the eu.
scotland does not have a say in the important thing that matter at the moment but we will have more of a say when we are independant.
it is you who are wanting to be a little fish in a big pond because no matter what scotland or her people want the only people or area that will get a say is londaon and the south east.
just ask our fishermen who where sold down the river just to keep the 16 kent fishermen(boats) happy.so go a head keep being a small fish i want to be a meduim sized fish that can have a say.
70

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 09/05/2008 11:57:11
Tam Dalyell is out of step with Scottish public opinion. There are few people in Scotland who want to see an end to the Holyrood parliament and a return to the old model of direct rule from Westminster. We had that; we didn't much like it. The majority of Scots favour an increase of powers to the parliament. There is a significant number in support of independence. It seems to me that, as Ross Finney pointed out on Newsnight, we ought to take time to have that debate and not rush it. If Wendy Alexander thinks it is right to rush to a referendum vote, then perhaps she will publish her plans for Scotland. As soon as possible. Then we'll know what the alternative is.
71

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 12:00:19
#72, if you want free prescriptions then vote for it. People like you act as though Scotland gets extra money for this. A goverment gets a budget and then chooses how to spend it, if Scots get free prescriptions or free education it just means that money isnt being spent on something else.
72

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 12:09:35
AM2#78,

I seem to remember you weren't too worried during the lead up to 3rd May 2007!!!
73

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 12:09:50
#78 AM2, polls, polls, lies and damned statistics. A referendum is the only thing that can truly gauge public opinion.
74

Venachar,

09/05/2008 12:18:04
#79
Spot on!

Kimba you are hilarious! If you weren't so dumb you would be funny.
Block Grant - we decide what to spend it on, it's called devolution.
Try voting in some politicians who will do what the majority would prefer.
If most people in England just listen to the rantings of Kelvin McKenzie then it serves them right. They have been asked at least in the north if they wanted some sort of devolution and have rejected it.
Yours is just the politics of envy and the fact that you are a WUM.
75

kimba,

09/05/2008 12:35:40
76. Britain is rated the 4th most powerful nation,but you go your own sweet way,you'll learn the hard way!
76

Geoff,

sa 09/05/2008 12:48:28
1 and 2-Yes gents-the only way forward out of this mess.
67 teamdroid-I disagree with your take entirely. The average Englishmen would have no beef whatsoever with the BRITISH PM coming from any part of the UK.However England has no Parliament so I can understand entirely that resentment is building up against this absurd injustice. Also whilst some English (and Scots dont forget) make racist remarks about each other most british people get on well. Finally Brown is so incompetent,such a disastrous PM that even if he was an Outer Mongolian some might understandably start feeling some resentment toward Outer Mongolia-as illogical as that would be!
77

kimba,

09/05/2008 12:49:19
scotsman in dublin. Should of known better,a scotsman in Ireland,not a cat in hells chance of getting common sense out of you
78

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 12:53:27
Jackie Priest (59): "Do you think second or third generations of Asians in Britain should sever all roots with India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc?"

Generally no. But I do think that they should regard themselves as British, not Indian or Bangladeshi: a man cannot serve two masters and, in general, I disagree with dual citizenship. I would also further discourage the practice of importing large numbers of spouses from, say, Bangladesh or Pakistan: this has dramatically impeded integration.

I suspect your primary problem is that you see this from a Scottish perspective, and immigration is relatively trivial in Scotland. In my home city, London, more than half the school age population (i.e. 18 years or younger) is ethnic minority, and the total ethnic minority population of England now exceeds the population of Scotland. Given those statistics, attitudes change.
79

European Scot,

09/05/2008 12:59:16
78 AM2

"Yet the most recent opinion poll (YouGov/Telegraph on 28 April) found only 19% support for independence and a remarkable 72% support for devolution.

No poll gauging those options has, at any time in the past year, found more than 23% support for independence or below 59% support for devolution."

Some of these polls contained over twenty questions.
Last night you referred to the ICM poll of the Telegraph in 2006 as being a freak. You stated that was because no survey since has even come close to such a figure, and yet you are quite prepared to accept a recent poll of only 19% in support of Independence, which is totally at odds with other recent polls showing figures of 40% and 41 %.
You use the words "no poll gauging these options..."
This is the crux of it. Multiple question polls, and the way those questions are framed and weighted, designed to achieve a certain response, which might give
' freak' results.
Wasn't there also a problem in one of these polls where 40% of the sample questioned, were Labour supporters.
It's not the percentages of the way Polls are answered, that needs examination, it's the way the questions are written, and laid out in these multi option polls, that needs closer scrutiny.
A simple yes or no, is less complicated, nothing is weighted, no one is led along a route designed to elicit certain responses.
Yes or No, straight to the point.
Then we can look at percentages.
80

craigy,

south lanarkshire 09/05/2008 13:10:31
Fairfax at 52.
I've also lived in foreign climes (maybe not for 45 years) but have never and would never consider myself anything other than Scottish. As they say, you can take the boy out of Scotland but you can never take Scotland out of the boy.
Daniel Robber.
Why should people who have chosen to emigrate for a better life but still retain British citizenship not retain their right to vote in UK elections or referanda? Was it not the Tories who enacted the legislation to allow expats to vote in order to help them help win elections in the late eighties and early nineties. Did you have such strong opinions on the subject then then?
81

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 13:17:34
#83, AM2, you are a total anorak. You must sit apon a mountain of propoganda. The reality is that a Poll is often a reflection of what the person that it paying for it wants to hear and the sources you quote are hardly unbiased. I remember 1992 General election when all the polls suggested a Labour win - and then we had another 5 years of Tory rule.

Incidentally I did a very quick search on google using the words "independence scotland poll" and here were the results.

Majority in Scotland wants independence, says poll | Politics ... - The Gaurdian

Britain wants UK break up, poll shows - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | Scotland | New poll calls for independence
82

Scotsman in Dublin,

09/05/2008 13:28:03
#86, Kimba, a quick glance at a few of your posts shows that your not exactly a reliable judge of common sense...
83

John S,

09/05/2008 13:31:06
#83 - Using the same format as the SNP is proposing to put in a referendum which is to ask the Scots whether they agree or disagree that the administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
TNS System Three March 2008
I agree: 41% - I do not agree: 40%
Scottish Daily - Express Jan 2008
I agree: 27% - I do not agree: 57%
TNS System Three Dec 2007
I agree: 40% - I do not agree: 44%
TNS System Three poll Aug 2007
I agree: 35% - I do not agree: 50%

Between Aug 2007 and March 2008 the I agree average is 35.75%, remove the SDE and the I agree average is 38.6%.
84

yockel,

09/05/2008 13:32:41
#84 Kimba; think you will find it is nearer 11th with Turkey having greater military capability and Poland having greater gold reserves.
85

Frank . G .,

NSW Australia 09/05/2008 13:33:52
Fairfax #52 (or Maybe Far Fetched #52)

In 1972 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Party ... (as useless as Gordon Browns) was elected as the government of Australia.

In 1973 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Government ... (as useless as Gordon Brown’s) introduced The Australian Citizen Act 1973 and also multi-culturalism in Australia without consulting the OzChattering classes.

In 1975 Gough Whitlam’s Labour Government ... (as useless as Gordon Brown’s) was the only Prime Minister and Government of Australia ever to be sacked .

In1973 all migrants had to satisfy common criteria for naturalisation as an Australian citizen (preferential treatment for British subjects was ended by the Australian Citizenship Act 1973).

My wife and I were already in Australia for 10 years. We vote in all Australian Elections, we do not have to become Australian Citizens to vote or to love this magic Country.(Wish we could vote in Scotland)

Gough Whitlam’s Australian Citizenship Act 1973 : Rights enjoyed by citizens broadly include entitlement to -

• vote and stand for public office
• serve on juries
• an Australian passport, to Australian consular protection overseas and immunity from deportation
• leave Australia and return at any time without requiring a resident return visa
• register overseas born children as Australian citizens by descent
• seek employment in federal government agencies and the armed forces

Today in Australia there are many people who cannot speak a word of English that hate Australians and their way of life , BUT THEY HAVE A WEE BIT OF PAPER THAT SAY’S , ME AUSTRALIAN!

They would rather die than live like, or respect Australians
86

AJ Fife,

09/05/2008 13:42:00
AM2,

Sorry, I keep forgetting it's 'Team AM2'! An earlier version of yourself was very optimistc about the SNP failing back then. You should keep better tabs on the rubbish you and your colleagues spout!

How is the guru, Arthur Midwinter, by the way?
87

danielrober,

09/05/2008 13:42:04
# 87 Fairfax,

When younger i spent a lot of time around Brusells. After the Berlin wall came down, West Germany suggested that all ethnic Germans to the forth generation should have the right of residence in Germany. This fourth generatin rule meant that's Germany's population would not be 80 million but, 150 million. However then some guys in France made some calculations for Fr