Religious pickle
So sectarianism it is, then. Eric Pickles’ new community cohesion and integration strategy mimics the Republican Party in the US with the appropriation of the Christian religion for political purposes.
But, as all the latest research shows, large proportions of the population of this country are not Christian or religious at all and they simply cannot be suddenly forced to live under a semi-theocratic regime run by Christians.
We can all agree that there should be some common values to live by, but there cannot be a religious hierarchy that discounts and dismisses the feelings of those who don’t share in that faith.
It is a recipe for conflict between communities and we can see all over the world that, when religion is given power, conflict follows.
While we have managed, to some extent, to keep this kind of sectarianism out of our policy-making, Mr Pickles is intent on introducing it.
He is heading for big trouble with this. It makes singing daft songs at football matches look like kids’ play by comparison.
Alistair McBay
Lawmuirview
Methven
Richard Lucas’s claim that school worship is not compulsory (Letters, 20 February) is ambiguous.
Religious observance is not required in Scottish schools; it is merely allowed to continue. Indeed it is required to do so until there is a local decision to discontinue it (that involves a poll of local electors).
Consequently, unless it is discontinued, it is compulsory. No Scottish education authority has held such a poll and so there has been no discontinuance.
Steuart Campbell
Dovecot Loan
Edinburgh
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Comments
There are 43 comments to this article
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samcoldstream
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 02:45 PMMembers of local councils in Wales, who do not agree with Mr Pickles pronouncement, have come up with a simple solution. Agnostic and atheist Welsh councillors will not attend prayers before Council meetings. It is not compulsory.
PeterVincent
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 02:43 PMIn terms of A McBay's letter - I think some of his points are complete made up stuff with no evidential basis. For example, the phrase, "but there cannot be a religious hierarchy that discounts and dismisses the feelings of those who don’t share in that faith" what's that meant to mean? In my town, a member of the clergy has been elected to the community council (I kno, it's not that difficult, just putting your nam ein tehhat virtually guarantees election), but in this true life case this man has transformed the work of the council in many many ways. This prominent member of the religious hierarchy has not only taken into account the feelings of those who don't share in his faith, he has acted on their feelings and put into place practical solutions which have benefitted hundreds of vulnerable citizens. He seeks no approbation, no gratitude, no converts - he just get's on and does 'good works' as commanded by his faith. This is the truth of many modern faith leaders in Scotland, a truth continually obscured by GarryOtton et al.You see there's no balance in GarryOttons aggressive lies. We can respect one another,, bestow privelage on each other, show tolerance and improve our lives together. How does that fuel sectarianism? No, the voices of extremism get far too much coverage.
PeterVincent
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 02:29 PMI know little or nothing about the Solas Centre, but from the information on it's website, I think I could agree with some of it's views. However, it's methods go against my grain. I would prefer evangelising through practice. I've found it successful too. So for someone to chuck the claim into the pot that I'm a member of SOLAS, without even touching on the theme of the thread is not debate. It doesn't cast an iota of light on the topic. It's a cheap and stupid insult - no more and no less.
stoppleman
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 01:55 PMPV - I did once wonder if you thought I was a Daily Mail reader, but apart from that, no complaints from me.
steve660
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 01:41 PMPeterV 38: I assume Lucas's "militant Christian organisation" referred to in #24 is the Solas centre in Dundee, and from what I've seen so far of it and its denizens' utterances, the description may have merit. Not having read enough of your posts over the last few weeks I do not feel able to judge whether the post is justified in linking you to Solas. Certainly your posts here seem tame. If you are upset by a comment you can always "turn the other cheek". I certainly don't delete them. Apart from being censorious, in a way it is, perhaps, better to leave them for all to see what sort of person is making them. An objective reader should be able to tell when harsh words are justifed, and when not. Sometimes people do deserve a b0ll0cking, other times it is just abuse. I'm happy to let others decide when it is one or the other.
PeterVincent
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 12:30 PMSteve, that's the quote cleared up, cheers. Concerning 'debate', I suppose my 'flaw' is thinking that these sites are going to be anything other than a battle ground for extremists. However, there are some of us who are moderates but have strong opinions. It's not debate when you constantly make personal attacks, seek to debase others views using hackneyed stereotypes and fail to discuss with balance. Look at post #24 - how is that debate? I am a moderate, but the views of moderates are being stifled on these sites by extremists. I have never made any reference to GarryOtton's sexuality, it's not relevant, so why does he make up a lie that I have? I do a lot of work in the community with children, why should I put up with lies being pedalled when all I am doing is trying to make a moderate point.
steve660
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 11:46 AMPeterV 36: I have never used the line you quote. That two others have indicates either that copying is going on (one from the other, or both from somewhere else), or that great minds think alike (or fools seldom differ). Even if one has picked the other's words, so what? It's the words themselves that count. I agree with the sentiment they express. You may or may not, and that can be a topic for debate. And if you think Garry's words are harsh, you'd cringe at some of the stuff I've been called! Apparently I'm a "wholly dishonest econazi parasite willing to tell any lie, no matter how obvious, in his Orwellian cause" (Google it). That's from a climate change denier. If you contribute to on-line forums you just have to get used to it. I'm sure Garry's a decent chap, but has had his fill of nonsense from (some) religionists and so just doesn't bother mincing his words any more. My expression "forthright and eloquent style" (which I heard a barrister use when I did jury service - I copy things too if I like them!) was written with tongue slightly in cheek.
PeterVincent
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 11:27 AMSteve, "forthright " - yes, "eloquent" - sorry no way. I am more than happy to engage in robust debate, but as I post under my own name I don't see why I should toerate personally abusive lies and foul language. If the Guy doesn't want to debate then he takes the consequences. Calling me a homophobe and claiming that I have made negative comments about his sexuality, when I haven't, that's not debate, it's a propagandists trick. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Concerning the quote, it's odd that all Mr McBay, you and Terry Sanderson all use exactlu the same wording, don't you think? Namely "but there cannot be a religious hierarchy that discounts and dismisses the feelings of those who don’t share in that faith."
steve660
Friday, February 24, 2012 at 09:47 AMPeterV. Don’t worry about Garry’s forthright and eloquent style. I’ve had far worse off my opponents as religious fanatics (not anyone in this thread) vie with climate change deniers to call me names. I just brush it aside. The ONLY times I have reported postings was when they were spam. Remember the adage about sticks and stones. If you are too delicate for a little robust debate then perhaps this is not the place for you. With respect to your post 22, no I am not Terry Sanderson, I am Stephen Moreton. I was just remarking that Alistair McBay had also copied my words, although I was actually quite flattered by it.
Richard Lucas
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 09:01 PM#33 - I said "in general"
PeterVincent
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 08:07 PMRichard Lucas, I disagree with you, there are reasonable people of faith and no faith, and there are unreasonable people of faith and no faith. I find that I rub along fine with both. However, GarryOtton is very abrasive and confrontational. Often a sign of insecurity. On the other hand - it's clear that Stoppleman and I may never agree on a range of issues - but at least we can have a discussion.
PeterVincent
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 08:04 PM"calm down and stop getting hysterical" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . what, like stop insulting people, using foul language and making up stories - suits you Sir!
Richard Lucas
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 08:01 PMPeter This is what Garry is like routinely, sadly. It's always interesting to compare the styles of different posters. Christians and atheists on these threads are certainly very different in general.
GarryOtton
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 06:01 PM@PV calm down and stop getting hysterical.
PeterVincent
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 04:02 PMGarryOtton, you are behaving like a bully ,and following your failure to address the issues of the article in any way, your insults, foul language and claims have become ever more extreme. You stepped over the line with your last posts which is why I have reported you for the reasons given. For the record I have never made any comment concerning your sexuality.
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