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Warning of '£1.3bn black hole' in spending



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Published Date: 22 July 2008
THE Scottish Government's proposed local income tax (LIT) could leave a £1.3 billion black hole in public finances, according to leadi ng local government officials.
John Swinney, the finance secretary, will be warned today that to set a rate of 3p in the pound may result in a deficit of £742 million on calculations based on the expenditure for 2008-9.

The report is part of a joint submission to the consu
ltation on local income tax from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA), the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, and all 32 finance directors of Scotland's councils. They calculate the deficit would rise to £1.3 billion if Mr Swinney fails to overcome the Scottish Government's limitations on varying income tax.

Under the terms of the Scotland Act only the 20p base rate can be varied by up to 3p while the higher 40p rate, which starts at earnings over £40,800, cannot be touched.

Officials have called for the SNP to abandon LIT and instead produce a reformed property tax, joining business organisations, unions, councils and other experts who have attacked the controversial policy.

And they warned that the spending gap would increase as Scotland's population continues to age.

The report emphasises that based on the 2008-9 figures Mr Swinney would have to set LIT at 4.5p to make the books balance and that would have to be even higher if he was not able to raise the 40p rate.

The three organisations highlighted concerns about the legality of LIT and suggested it would not have as efficient a collection rate as the council tax.

Angela Scott, head of CIPFA in Scotland said: "Our independent calculations have raised some important issues for ministers to consider, not least the potential funding gap. It is critically important that they address these issues."

However, Mr Swinney insists he will press ahead with the policy, and yesterday a Scottish Government spokesman said: "Four out of five households across Scotland will be better or no worse off under LIT. Our proposal to replace the regressive council tax with a fair 3p local income tax is based on ability to pay and represents a £281 million cut in local taxation."

PricewaterhouseCoopers also published its response yesterday, questioning whether LIT is workable, and suggesting that it may cost more to collect than the council tax and may drive business away from Scotland.

WHAT NEXT?

Friday, 18 July, 2008 – The consultation into the plans to replace the council tax with a local income tax closed. Almost all responses were negative.

August to December, 2008 – Holyrood's local government committee is set to continue its own look at the tax. It is likely to use its findings as the basis of scrutinising the bill brought forward by the Scottish Government.

Early 2009 – Finance secretary John Swinney said he intends to introduce the bill to reform local taxation early in the year. He may try to strike a deal with the Lib Dems and Greens to get something through and get rid of the council tax.

1 April, 2011 – If the SNP is successful, this will be the first day that people start paying a 3p addition to their income tax instead of the council tax.



The full article contains 552 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 July 2008 10:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 22/07/2008 00:02:10
Here are a few reasons not to trust a single word the SNP say about their “local” income tax:

1. John Swinney claims that since 1997, council tax has increased 60%. But it was actually only 47%. The average band D bill has increased from £783 to £1,149 over the decade. All other bands rose in the same proportion.

2. Alex Salmond’s spokesman said that the rate would be “3p, not any more or less”, but an SNP statement said it would be 3p “in the first instance” and that local authorities would later be given “greater flexibility”.

3. Last June, John Swinney claimed that 90% of us would pay less. In March an SNP document inexplicably changed that to 67%.

4. The SNP initially acknowledged a £450 million shortfall, but then changed it to just £281 million without explanation. Third party estimates of the actual shortfall have ranged from £831 million (Institute of Fiscal Studies) to £1.3 billion (above).
2

Free by '93,

22/07/2008 00:03:17
Have we had even one black whole in 15 years of independence? I don't think so.

So what if the SNP just make things up, at least we are free.
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/07/2008 00:11:53
#2 maybe they meant 2093?
4

Highland Mighty©,

22/07/2008 00:12:21
Swinney's an innumerate fool and I wouldn't trust him with my small change.

Last year he declared Scotland's GDP as £160bn....yet it turns out to be only £130bn even with current oil prices.

Then he needed a team of Govt accountants to sort out his books as they were so messed up....only for him to take all the credit for their work.

Then he and Salmond declared their infamous £800m 'surplus' in the last budget....by simply ignoring £3.5bn in spending.

As I said, Swinney's an innumerate fool.
5

Peeablo,

UKSSR 22/07/2008 00:19:44
AM2

What do you have to say about the financial 'black hole' that New Labour are getting us (yes all of us in the UK & NI).

What say you on that 'Union Dividend'?
6

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

22/07/2008 00:25:53

Can this story be flogged anymore, this is becoming a farce.

1 AM2, Scotland,UK 22/07/2008 00:02:10
Here are a few reasons not to "TRUST" a single word the SNP say about their “local” income tax

ha ha ah ah, your getting more desperate by the hour .......

Try it our for yourself, see how much LIT you'd pay
www.glasgow.gov.uk/AF3int/an/default.aspx/RenderForm/?F.Name=EVYys4iyhHj



2 Free by '93, 22/07/2008 00:03:17
2 more years..... then start negotiations, are you terrified?



4 Highland Mighty©, 22/07/2008 00:12:21
"an innumerate fool"....... don't be so hard on yerself, your bad but not that bad




7

Free by '93,

22/07/2008 00:31:31
6

What are we going to negotiate for, we have alread won our freedom under the last campaign.

You are one of these fringe lunatic SNP members who have preditced independence 5 out of the last 0 times.

I am one for won hoever by predicting 93, spot on.
8

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 22/07/2008 00:45:20
Tell me. How many people would be penalised by the retention of the cooncil tax that would be better off under local income tax, which at least is based on an assessment of income and thus ability to pay, rather than a ten year old plus valuation of where you live.

Come on unionistas.....

The silence is deafening.
9

,

22/07/2008 00:53:07
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10

,

22/07/2008 01:04:16
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11

Jwil,

22/07/2008 01:10:44
Not another damning endictment of the LIT. The Scotsman iss nothing if not persistent. Its turned it into a comedy act. Someone has toted up the number of articles on this subject in the Herald. Its obviously a worry to Labour and I'm sure John Swinney won't be deflected by the rhetoric.

Just think what the English backlash is going to be like when this policy gets implemented and ordinary Scots are seen to benefit (again).

12

Jwil,

22/07/2008 01:12:39
"John Swinney claims that since 1997, council tax has
increased 60%. But it was actually only 47%."


My council tax has increased by more than 60% since 1997.
13

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 22/07/2008 01:23:28
Still no answer to my #8 from the unionistas - tells you all you need to know.
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 01:27:34

TO A PYHSIC......,

"And What do you See Charles",?

"I see a 'Big black hole', a 'Big black hole'!"

"Fear Not"!,...."all will be well!"
15

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/07/2008 01:34:28
The one certainty in this is, if NuLabour & the Tories are against it, then, it must be going to benefit the least well-off in society.

BTW, with CTB, the figures produced are remarkably close to John Swinney's; maybe he can count.
16

urban poacher,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 01:49:03
according to other info on the wires thi is all rubbish it is nothing about 3p income tax.
17

urban poacher,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 01:52:10
according to the published sources most responses were positive. also most of the negative responses came from people whose earnings were high enough to be paying more. seems journalists must have small houses and big salaries to promote these absolute lies.
18

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 22/07/2008 01:53:24
#14

Gonnae answer my #8 ?

No ?

See
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/AF3int/an/default.aspx/RenderForm/?ID=K-tdoxmQutR&fs2s=EvxYsYhJ5Jz

Still no answer ?

Tells us all we need to know about you.
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 02:03:15

McMadman ~18,

"Gonnae answer my #8 ?"

'Of Course' I will!

I agree it should be a,.."local income tax", baised on the ability to pay!

And NOT the 'Home' that one may inherit, or lived all their lives in.
20

,

22/07/2008 02:15:39
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21

,

22/07/2008 02:18:39
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22

,

22/07/2008 02:20:06
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23

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 22/07/2008 04:22:59
“Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA), the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, and all 32 finance directors of Scotland's councils. They calculate the deficit would rise to £1.3 billion”

Now there is a fine collection of able bodied personnel who are able to pass comment on the proposed LIT.

How many of the Councils that they are in charge off are currently running in deficit?
How many “Aberdeen’s” are still to be found? How many Council’s are still to have the “books” signed off by the auditors?

The answer is to pick any number between 1 and 32, double it then divide by two, then take away nothing and the number you first thought off is your answer.
24

eric,

22/07/2008 06:24:33
Folk arent interested in the Gvts probs .On the street folks are more interested in their own,And they will vote on those issues!.It doesnt matter what the result is in by election.labour have lost anyway.Roll on the general election.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 07:31:52

McMadman ~21,

...."What's with the "big black hole" chite then"...,

answer:.....
................"CHITE".....................
26

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/07/2008 07:36:47
When the news is bad, shoot the news reader; then carry on as before.

If the SNP doesn't take this funding gap seriously then we are all entering Mugabe land.
27

gus1940,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 08:00:12
How many more HARDLINE UNIONIST stories will the Anti-Scotsman manage to conjure up between now and thursday?
28

MacGillicuddy,

22/07/2008 08:19:32
#23

I suspect you are nearest to the truth!!!

The 32 directors of finance have a vested interested in being doom merchants.
29

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 09:06:41
Local Income Tax is a fairer progressive tax unlike Council Tax.
30

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 09:19:58
..... So much for the 'consultation excersise', then. Merely a paper excercise, I take it?

Everyone knows that the 3% rate is flawed - even the exec say it is a £281MM tax cut (but with no explanation of the cut-backs that would have to be made). Without a revision of the rate, it will not get voted through - perhaps that is the strategy.

If the 3% rate is flawed, all the calculations on who benefits and who looses are empty barrels.

Certainly, a £281MM local funding cut would hit the poorest, disproportionately.
31

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 22/07/2008 09:23:57
It is absolute nonsense to say the collection of this money is going to be difficult. It will be electronic and no different than changing a persons tax code for the payroll department.

I have checked and I will paymore. So be it but it still improves the lot of old people and people on small incomes. That surely is a good thing.

32

Doh,

22/07/2008 09:24:31
Another day another regurgitated anti LIT story.

Amazing to think that LIT is used in another countries.

Those in favout of the Council Tax should have it renamed to the Home Tax and used to fund central goverment - just like stamp duty.
33

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 09:25:59
#29 Linda

LIT also removes all retired persons from the tax base. It also removes the very rich from the tax base, it also enables anyone with a small business to minimise their LIT contributions. Everyone else then pays for the resulting drop in income.

Furthermore, by completely abandoning personal property tax, the government are then subject the fluctuations in income-tax revenue (have a look at the rising UK national debt).

And don't think that a LIT would not increase just as the CT has. But you will not get an invoice through your door any more. Increases in PAYE income tax are less obvious.

If people want to pay more PAYE income tax for local funding, at least some personal property tax should remain.
34

Gtj,

22/07/2008 09:38:23
If I had a pound for every time this outfit ran a negative LIT story, I could fund the project myself.
35

,

22/07/2008 09:51:06
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36

,

22/07/2008 09:51:42
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37

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 09:52:19
1

You scaremonger, traitor, collaborator, anti-freedom person, etc, etc.

Like the many here (but not the experts) I believe in John Swinney.

Not that I'd trust him with my savings, you understand.


38

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 09:54:48
#37

Indeed. Career politicians are much better with numbers than accountants.
39

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 09:58:03
#36

If people discussed the trams a bit more, it might never have happened.
40

Toom,

22/07/2008 09:59:57
#33

"LIT also removes all retired persons from the tax base."

Pensions are subject to income tax. Has it been proposed that pensions won't be subject to the 3p increase?
41

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/07/2008 10:02:12
#33, Tin Man.

Your self-serving philanthropy does you credit.

Perhaps you should look at the Income Tax system, and ask yourself why have the anomolies, that you point out, have arisen.

The SNP Government are intending to implement LIT, in the self-evident knowledge that it is fairer, even given the anomolies.
LIT is based on the ability to pay, it benefits families and individuals with lower incomes, thus allowing them more disposible income which, in turn helps the local economy.

LIT is not perfect, but it is better than CT. Have you asked youself, why is it that only the Tories & NuLabour support CT?

FOR A FAIRER AND MORE PROSPEROUS SCOTLAND: VOTE SNP.
42

,

22/07/2008 10:08:33
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43

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 10:16:18
#41 frank

The LIT proposal is by no means perfect, and I certainly hope that the exec action the failings that are highlighted by the consultation process. After all, the initial proposal is not an order that has to be obeyed at all times without question.
44

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 10:18:23
#40 Toom

Indeed, pensions are taxed. That tax is excluded from the proposed LIT revenue.
45

Alan B,

22/07/2008 10:19:14
#AM2

"The SNP initially acknowledged a £450 million shortfall, but then changed it to just £281 million without explanation. Third party estimates of the actual shortfall have ranged from £831 million (Institute of Fiscal Studies) to £1.3 billion (above)."

You complain about the snp spinning and then come out with this statement above. What you ommit about the higher figures above is that they are conventiently leaving out council tax rebate.

If labour disgracefully withhold scotland share of the money then offcourse there would be a shortfall. But lets be honest and blame the disgraceful antics of that apology for a party.

I notice this article also says that lit cannot be levied on top rate tax. Again the snp plans are a flat 3% which will include all levels of salary. Off course if you chop a bit of the tax take by implententing plans that the snp do not have then u can make up any figure you want.

You have argued against lit becuase it will increase tax for higher earners because they plan to tax top rate tax payer so it is silly to then say they will have a bigger deficit in revenue terms by chopping that off.

The silly thing about labours critism of lit and yours is it actually shows that the scotland and its parliament needs far more powers to implement its own policies and not be restricted by having to ask permission of westminster to implement areas of policy that were meant to be devolved in the first place.

Labour need to come to terms with the fact that they lost the last election. (And they will lose the next one too.)
46

Senga Jean,

22/07/2008 10:20:27
Local Income Tax? Question! Is it fair and progressive? ANSWER>>>YES>>>YES....say no more.
47

Alan B,

22/07/2008 10:20:53
#44 The Tin Man

Did not think pensions where excluded from lit. Thought it was only investment income that was excluded ie interest on bank accounts etc.

48

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 10:25:34
#47

I believe that the LIT proposal is entirely based on increasing PAYE income tax, is it not?
49

The Tin Man,

22/07/2008 10:27:44
...Therefore, only applicable to salary, not any other income.
50

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/07/2008 10:29:14
Forget LIT.

Go for LVT (land value tax). Far cheaper and easier to collect; impossible to avoid; paid only by those rich enough to own property; is selective and so can encourage good things and penalise bad (such as land banks, derelict property, second homes forcing up local prices, speculation, and what have you).
51

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 22/07/2008 10:33:19
This is getting really funny, those opposed to this scheme have now clearly reached the think of a number and double it stage!
52

Alan B,

22/07/2008 10:42:39
#48 Tin Man

Did a google

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Qgche10W0gQJ:www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/215409/0057636.pdf+who+is+liable+for+local+income+tax&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=uk

"Our proposals for a new local taxation system to fund local authority expenditure include:

A tax free personal allowance that matches the UK personal allowance levels

-A 3% rate applied to the income that is subject to basic and higher rates of UK income tax

-Collection that complements the existing national system of collection through Payas You Earn (PAYE) and self assessment

-Exemptions for savings and investment income

-A tax for second homes, which will be subject to local requirements, and broadly comparable to the current council tax on second homes. "


As such i think pension which are currently liable for income tax will be hit by LIT.

It would be a pensioner living off investment income that would not pay anything. Not exactly sure what really constitutes investment income.

ie would it include living off rent from renting acouple of flat etc.

I take investment income as income made and u could currently get exemption for capital gains allowances.

Pity about these articles in the scotsman. They actually are not very informative about the actual proposals.
53

antifa,

22/07/2008 10:43:06
According to this...

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/AF3int/an/default.aspx/RenderForm/?ID=K-tdoxmQutR&fs2s=EvxYsYhJ5Jz

...I'd be around £300 worse off a year under LIT.

Any income tax is likely to leave me worse off than a property tax because, like a lot of young people these days, I've got a smallish flat but a reasonable salary.

I'm not saying the LIT is a bad thing, but it's silly to pretend no-one will be adversely affected.

Meanwhile, two further problems with this specific proposal:

1. It's not progressive; it's a flat rate. Why shouldn't higher earners pay a higher proportion of their income? That is what progressive means.

2. It totally erodes local authority autonomy, thereby removing a tier of government, with very little debate.

By the way, rather than moaning on at The Scotsman for their representation of this CIPFA report, why not access the report and judge for yourselves?

Then come back here and intelligently show how The Scotsman is biased - rather than just ignorantly sounding off.
54

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 10:46:21
38

Indeed..

Like the many here, I would always make a point of consulting my MP/MSP about my financial affairs long before I would ever consider an accountant.

Black hole - what black hole?
55

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 10:53:12
53

The devil is, as ever, in the detail.

If I'm to believe the numbers, the SNP 3p CA-LIT has me hundreds of squids up. Wife too. Planning a wee trip to the Caribbean on my/our windfall. 'Planning', you understand.

Think I'll hold off booking anything until I get the cheque.

Time to wake up.




56

,

22/07/2008 10:55:05
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57

Miss H,

22/07/2008 10:55:40
45 If Westminster withholds the council tax benefit then LIT will not happen.

But will they?

If the SNP get Lib Dem support and steer this through the Scottish Parliament then we have to imagine a situation where Westminster is seen to thwart the will of the Scottish Parliament in the immediate run-up to 1. a referendum on independence (perhaps) 2. the Westminster election (assuming it is June 2010 and 3. following that the 2011 SP elections.

It depends how much of a death wish Labour has.
58

Miss H,

22/07/2008 10:59:15
33 Tin Man are you claiming that no retired people pay income tax?
59

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 11:04:21
hehehe

Salmond:
Can I have a Council Tax rebate, please?

Treasury:
Certainly, sir, from which part of the country are you?

Salmond:
Scotland.

Treasury:
Sorry, sir, but Scotland doesn't have council tax anymore. You can't apply for a rebate for a tax you no longer collect.

Straight forward enough to understand.


60

Alan B,

22/07/2008 11:22:38
#Scottish 'N British

The question is whether the council tax rebate is or should be part of the scottish block grant.

It is silly to devolve power for the sp to change the method of local government taxation and then withdraw money if the parliament chooses to do so.

The idea of barnett and the scottish block grant is scotland gets a % share of the money england spends.

Look at the stupidity of the situation if this money is withheld. Scotland pays it share of tax revenues to westminster but only gets its share of the money back if it goes along with england method of local government tax. Bonkers.

What would happen if the tories were to bring in poll tax mark 11 would scotland have to adopt that as it would autonomatically lose council tax rebate as council tax no longer exists. Just silly.

Rebates for rates, poll tax and now council tax has always existed. It is simply ridiculous fort his money to be withheld from scotland.
61

Alan B,

22/07/2008 11:29:54
#Miss H

Think Tin Man was unsure whether pension income would fall within the scope of LIT. Investment income does not. However what exactly consitutes investment income. I guessed that meant that people would not pay lit on interest on bank accounts. Is that true? Thought it was only liable on salaried income. While i assumed that would include pensions i can understand why Tin Man is questioning it as it is not strickly tax on salaried income.

Pensioners offcourse pay income tax currently but it is the excemptions in the snp proposals that i think is causing the confusion. A pensioner would currently pay income tax on investment income but no-one would be subject to that.
62

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 11:31:52
60

Logic dictates you cannot expect to receive Council Tax relief for a tax you no longer collect.

Salmond and Swinney have slipped up BIG time in presuming things would continue as normal. What they should have done was plan for NOT receiving it. That they didn't was obvious.

But imagine the reaction from the public had they been able to reveal that they had another £400m to spend on us.

63

Alan B,

22/07/2008 11:39:19
#Scottish 'N British

There was apparently some westminster documentation that said the council tax rebate was actually part of the block grant. Labour said this was in error.

To me there is no logic in having the scottish parliament having devolved power to change the method of local government tax and then withholding money from scotland if we choose to change our local government tax. That is daft.

I say this as someone who does not support LIT but supports the right of the scottish parliament to implement a power devolved by the scotland act.

You have ignored my point about the implication if westminster was to move away from council tax to an alternative.

Logic also dictates if the scottish parliament is funded through a block grant using barnett giving scotland a % of english funding that scotland get that percentage.

you seem to be saying scotland should only get it barnett formula money if scotland adopts westminster policies. That goes against the whole premise of what barnett was about when it was created in the 70s and the concept of the scottish parliament.

Why should they not plan for it. While u take a viewpoint i really cannot understand. I think most people in scotland will find it particularly odd we pay taxes for something we do not get in return.
64

Alan B,

22/07/2008 11:47:30
#Scottish 'N British

Question: What is the point in labour creating a parliament for scotland, granting it power to change the method of local government taxes, and then having a significant chunk of funding withheld if the parliament chooses to use this power?


Even if you take your view that it should not be part of the block grant (an obscure poinit of view) all it shows is the mess labour made with the devolution settlement.

Labour are actually making a rod for their own back with this. 1)their own coalition partner for 8 yrs and their most likely partner in the future supports LIT. 2)if the calman commission is to give the sp more powers then it is unlikely issues like this would not be resolved. As such labour are arguing about something they will lose anyway. They are really to short term in their outlook.
65

sm753,

22/07/2008 12:02:27
#63

"I say this as someone who does not support LIT but supports the right of the scottish parliament to implement a power devolved by the scotland act."

But it isn't. Devolved powers included power to vary basic rate by 3p and to make changes to local taxation.

"Two Dinners" Salmond and "Hapless" Swinney deliberately chose a policy which they knew to be ultra vires under the Act so they could pick a fight. So much for the promise to govern constructively under the rules as they stand.

Remember they're also only a minority gov so the policy belongs to no-one else in Parliament other than them, until and unless a Bill is passed. (Which it can't be, as it's ultra vires - the Presiding Officer ought to reject it).

And as S'n'B keeps trying to explain to you, the Council Tax Benefit money isn't part of the block grant - it is claimed by individual council tax payers. It simply isn't the Treasury's money to hand over to Swinney or anyone else.

Now if Swinney could have been bothered to actually design a system of "LIT Benefit" which delivered a similar amount of relief to the poorest, then the Treasury would probably have looked at it. Too clever for him, though.
66

Toom,

22/07/2008 12:09:56
#44

"#40 Toom

Indeed, pensions are taxed. That tax is excluded from the proposed LIT revenue."

Your comment is the first and only reference I have seen to income tax on pensions being excluded from the +3% LIT. Can you quote a source for that?
67

Toom,

22/07/2008 12:12:22
#47 #48 the Tin Man

My employment pension is taxed at source on the same basis as PAYE. Can you quote evidence that pension income will not be subject to +3% LIT. It will come as news to millions.
68

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 12:13:18
Arrogance is behind Swinney's CA-LIT.

Tommy Sheridan had the nous to work it out and the Lib Dems claim they have avoided the trap. So why didn't the Dynamic Duo, if not to muddy the waters and pick a fight with Westminster?

It will go down as the SNP's Poll Tax.

And I expect thousands, irrespesctive of whether they are Unionist, Federalist or, yes, even Separatists, to challenge this as it stands.

Who knows, may even do so myself.
69

Alan B,

22/07/2008 12:28:38
#sm753

"Now if Swinney could have been bothered to actually design a system of "LIT Benefit" which delivered a similar amount of relief to the poorest, then the Treasury would probably have looked at it. Too clever for him, though."

The whole point of LIT is is does not have to have a benefit as it is not have the "unfairness" of council tax. LIT whether u agree with or not is from the ground up a tax based on the ability to pay. As such your comment above misses the point.

"Devolved powers included power to vary basic rate by 3p and to make changes to local taxation."

First of all you have moved the goalposts. The discussion was based on council tax rebate not the 3p levy. I was saying i support the right of the scottish parliament to change the method of local government taxation as set down by the scottland act. It is a devolved power and you can check up if you are in doubt. My point was it was ridiculous for labour to try to withhold this money and pointed out the silliness of having a power devolved to change a method of tax but then punishing scotland for using that power.

On your point specifically about the 3% level only being applicable to basic rate levels. The proposal does not use the 3p varying rate allowable under the scotland act but is a separate local government tax. Even labour have not questioned the legality of having a 3% flat rate on all salaried income not just basic rate. Labours legal position is to question if it can be done centrally set. From reading the part of the act i think labour really do not have a legal case (but am not lawyer). Labour may not have intended for it to be centrally set when it wrote the act but that does not mean that they worded in a way that would prevent the scottish parliament bringing in a tax for local government that is centrally set.

As i see it this is labour playing games unable to come to terms with scotland voting for a party other than them. It is immature in the extreme.

They sho
70

Alan B,

22/07/2008 12:33:34
cont..

They should argue against the tax on its merit in the scottish parliament and build parliamentary support for their position.

As i said i support having a property tax as part of the whole tax system and not overloading a single form of tax. It is about having a fair tax system not making sure every individual tax is fair. A tax system made up of only the fairest taxes does not necessary lead to a fair tax system. My problem with council taxes was the huge increases under labour along with the fact it is particularly hard on pensioners.
71

Alan B,

22/07/2008 12:37:16
#Scottish 'N British

Given that the lib dems support lit do not know how you can credible say that. The lib dems also side with the snp on the issue of council tax rebate.

The big difference between lib dems and snp are the lib dems want councils to be able to vary rates. The snp have said they would consider this later. Not sure if the lib dems believe investment income should be included as part of the tax. But these are details to be discussed and compromised on. Both parties believe in same tax in principle.

72

McMadman,

http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 22/07/2008 12:40:37
Scottish & Bitter

Tell me. How many people would be penalised by the retention of the cooncil tax that would be better off under local income tax, which at least is based on an assessment of income and thus ability to pay, rather than a ten year old plus valuation of where you live.

Come on unionistas.....

The silence is deafening
73

Toom,

22/07/2008 12:42:09
#52

"It would be a pensioner living off investment income that would not pay anything. Not exactly sure what really constitutes investment income."

A pensioner is only a pensioner if they have a pension, and that, after personal allowances, is subject to income tax.

I am a pensioner with additional 'investment income'.
This is the income from savings and investments I made from earned income on which I've already paid income tax and NI. The interest on my savings is taxed a 20%. This ensures they lose value against the current real rate of inflation. My investments, including the 'tax-free' PEPs and ISAs which Mr Brown taxed, are subject to dividend tax. Apart from the PEPs and ISAs, any gains are subject to capital gains tax. I've disqualified myself from pension credits and any other means-tested benefits, and my assets will be first call for any care home fees rather than me being a charge upon the state.

Obviously, I should have drunk more fine wines, dined out more, had more foreign holidays, and replaced the car more often.

Meantime my 'investment income' remains fair game for taxation.

Welcome to the Britain of 'prudent' economic policy
74

sm753,

22/07/2008 12:55:35
#69

"The whole point of LIT is is does not have to have a benefit as it is not have the "unfairness" of council tax. "

Er yes it does, otherwise the sums don't add up. Or alternatively, the Nats should have designed a system with yet-higher rates for the rich (or taxation of savings & investment income) to pay for it.

Before you even get to the pluses and minuses of the thing, it is evident that the proposal is simply badly and incompetently designed. So much so that you wonder if it was ever meant as a serious proposal , rather than an excuse for a fight.

Rather like SFT.
75

Highland Mighty©,

22/07/2008 12:55:36
72. The super-wealthy who live on dividends will be better off as they will pay none of the LIT. Good for them.

The refuse-to-work division and the peramnently-on-sicknote brigade will be better off as they will pay none of the LIT. Good for them.

Family households where more than one person works will be worse off.

Students with jobs living in shared households will be worse off.
76

antifa,

22/07/2008 13:00:08
72 - if you re-phrase your question so that it is interpretable perhaps someone will try to answer it.

And please drop this "unionistas" stuff - it's not big or clever. It can be done to the other side -"nationalistas" too - which isn't big or clever either. It's just childish and meaningless and makes you look a fool.

I clicked on your link and, as mentioned in 53, found myself and my bird £300 worse off under LIT. As I explained, this is because I am relatively asset-poor and relatively income rich: others in the same boat (mostly youngish couples) will also lose out.

Whether this is desirable or not depends on your view of politics and economics.

From a political point of view, this might be seen as progressive, though that's arguable - a tax on wealth is presumably as progressive as a tax on income - depends how you organise it and who you target. In this case, it's a flat rate which by definition is not progressive. So much for social democracy.

From an economic viewpoint, taxing wealth is less distortionary than taxing income, and leads to a more efficient resource allocation - e.g. it provides an incentive for lonely old spinsters to sell their houses to families that actually need them.

I haven't looked at the responses to the consultation but I can see why there is near 100% criticism of the proposals as they stand.
77

Deamhain,

Aberdeenshire 22/07/2008 13:12:32
#50 - Rulers but nae rubbers

LVT?? I confess to not knowing the details but it worries me that out in the depths of Aberdeenshire where a wee hoose with a bit of land was less expensive to buy, by an order of magnitude, than they are now that I should pay tax, not based on what council services I use (no adopted roads near the house so no road maintenance, no street lighting, no gritting, no road cleaning, miles away from council libraries etc etc) but on the current value of the land on which my house sits and on which I grow my own vegetables, provide my own eggs, rear my own meat - thus reducing my energy use, CO2 emmissions, food miles etc. How exactly does LVT work in a fair manner?
78

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 13:24:05
71

"The big difference between lib dems and snp are the lib dems want councils to be able to vary rates. The snp have said they would consider this later."

A subtle, but very important difference.

Given this, the LD's would be plainly daft to accept Swinney's promises, let alone his offer to "suck it and see".

79

JayDeeTee,

22/07/2008 13:30:11
#1. "1. John Swinney claims that since 1997, council tax has increased 60%. But it was actually only 47%. The average band D bill has increased from £783 to £1,149 over the decade. All other bands rose in the same proportion."

Only 47%. I'm over the moon with joy about that. Does this constitute good news if you are a Unionist? Jezus.

80

sm753,

22/07/2008 13:43:26
#79

"Does this constitute good news if you are a Unionist? Jezus. "

No. But what have Council Tax rises got to do with the Union? Zero.

What this represents is the age-old swing of the pendulum - we went from under-investment in local services under the last Conservative government to an excess, with poor value returned for the money invested.

Time to push the pendulum back a bit, I would advise.
81

Boggle fey the Bog,

22/07/2008 16:07:00
62 Scottish 'N British,22/07/2008 11:31:52

Logic dictates that you are illogical.

In theory Scotland 'receives' CTB rebate from Wastemonster, in actuality, since the Scotland Act that portion of 'Welfare' Payment covering CTB, was incorporated into the 'Block Grant' this being 'heralded' by the Nu Labour/Owld Torie Party as 'way to to go man' so to speak.

Therefore, for Wastemonster to try to refuse part of the 'Block Grant' which has been included in the Legal Framework of the legislation, would only be it 'ignoring' yet another of it's own laws, which we have now come to accept as the norm for this thoroughly corrupt and immoral collection of sycophants, criminals and ne'er do wells.

The repercussions would be many, not least of which would be felt at the Ballot Box, but also in court, as this would ultimately end up in court, as if both parliaments cannot agree then litigation, in whatever form that may take, would be the only recourse to justice.
82

Scottish 'N British,

22/07/2008 16:28:38
81

Have I made you unhappy? Oh dear. Never mind.

And these spellnig mastikes - tsk, tsk.

No wonder you swallow whole and without question the guff pedalled out by Swinney/Salmond.

Re litigation - isn't that court stuff? Something like what will follow if Swinney's version of CA-LIT ever sees the light of day.

83

Boggle fey the Bog,

22/07/2008 16:45:53
2 Scottish 'N British,22/07/2008 16:28:38

Answer the points I have raised.
Resorting to infantile jibes proves only your incompetence as a debater, and moreover only indicates that your are blinded by your own myopic prejudices.

Or on the other hand, it is more probable that your are naught but an Onionist troll.

One thing for sure is you have no idea what you are talking about.
84

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/07/2008 21:10:41
And the UK surplice is?
85

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/07/2008 21:51:22
#81, Bogle frae............

Don't you know? It was an UNINTENTIONAL MISTAKE!!!!!!! CTB was an integral part of the SBG from 1999 until Oct. 2007, when it was, SUDDENLY, discovered that is should not have been included.

Does this, somehow, sound eerily like "Wendygate"???

Why are NuLab lies UNINTENTIONAL??????
86

sm753,

22/07/2008 22:15:58
84

The "UK surplice"? Probably a British liturgical vestment, according to the dictionary.
87

sm753,

22/07/2008 22:15:59
84

The "UK surplice"? Probably a British liturgical vestment, according to the dictionary.
88

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/07/2008 22:22:26
sm753, 86 @87. I always direct a number to a name - this paper has been known to alter the numbering of the posts.

Glad you got the double-entendre about the cover up for public display.
89

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 22/07/2008 22:22:45
sm753, 86 @87. I always direct a number to a name - this paper has been known to alter the numbering of the posts.

Glad you got the double-entendre about the cover up for public display.
90

AM2,

Scotland,UK 22/07/2008 22:57:48
#60 Alan B

Council Tax Benefit isn’t in the Scottish block grant. It's an integral part of the Council Tax system, as a GB-wide function of the Department for Work & Pensions. They were both established by the Local Government Finance Act 1992. There’s no separating the two.

Ref: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1992/Ukpga_19920014_en_20.htm#sdiv9

The 2006 Burt report on local government said that “if in Scotland the council tax were replaced by a local income tax, Council Tax Benefit would cease.”

The 2004 Lyons report in England had also said that the Government “would no longer have to pay council tax benefit in the case of a full replacement LIT”.

John Hutton, then Work & Pensions Minister, said in April 2007: “Let us be clear, if there is no council tax in Scotland there will be no council tax benefit.”

James Purnell, the current Work & Pensions Minister, said in March 2008: “When there is no council tax then there is no council tax benefit.”

The SNP has always known the score but has argued contrary to the facts.
91

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/07/2008 23:12:16
#90, AM2.

Again, you tell untruths!!!!!!!!!

The SBG included CTB from 1999 until Oct. 2007 - when it was NOTICED THAT IT WAS UNINTENTIONALLY INCLUDED???

Does this not have eerie similarities to "Wendygate".

Isn't it amazing how many NuLab actions/inactions/commissions/ommissions are UNINTENTIONAL?????

Yet again, AM2, you are proven, by your own word, to be a teller of untruths.

Is it congenital?
92

AM2,

Scotland,UK 22/07/2008 23:45:12
#91 Frank McBride

I'm going to ignore both the intemperate - indeed slightly unhinged - nature of your post and your unfounded allegation.

The SNP claimed in a March 2008 press release that Council Tax Benefit forms “part of the Scottish Block”.

That was a false claim. It was based on an obvious error in a pre-devolution Treasury funding statement. Council Tax Benefit was erroneously listed in Appendix A of the 1999 version of the document as part of the Scottish block, as had originally been the plan in the run-up to devolution.

Check for yourself. The document is titled “Funding the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland Assembly: Statement of Funding Policy”.

You may access it at the following address:
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pbr_csr/documents/pbr_csr07_funding.cfm

The error (well, it wasn’t originally an error in 1999 but became so when the structure changed) was carried forward for several years without being noticed, until the SNP found it and started trying to use it to deny reality. At that point the document was corrected.

Rather than basing your views on SNP press releases, I can only suggest that you read the rest of the statement to satisfy yourself that there has never been an actual monetary component of the block devoted to CTB. The only reference was in the appendix list.

The SNP’s attempt to spread the false view that CTB was already in the block in order to give the impression that its cessation if LIT were to be introduced would be tantamount to “theft” of “Scotland’s money” is a classic example of their gradualist opportunism.
93

frank mcbride,

lusitania 23/07/2008 00:26:54
#92,AM2.

There was nothing intemperate in my comment.

You are a peddler of untruths.

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