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SNP accused of deceiving parents over key pledge on nurseries



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Published Date: 29 September 2008
A KEY Scottish Government commitment to ensure all pre-school children have access to a nursery teacher has been dramatically watered down, The Scotsman can reveal.
In an exclusive interview, Adam Ingram, the Children's Minister, admitted that access to a nursery teacher could in reality mean that children only see a teacher once a week.

On other days, classes would be led by nursery nurses, who do not hold
a teaching degree.

Parents and teachers last night reacted angrily to the revelation and said they felt deceived by the government.

The SNP's election manifesto said the party was concerned at the removal of nursery teachers from nurseries in some council areas. It read: "We will deliver access to a fully qualified nursery teacher for every nursery-age child, starting with children in deprived communities."

But until now, the Scottish Government has never confirmed what "access" meant, despite pressure from opposition parties, teachers and parents.

Asked by The Scotsman whether access meant every child having a nursery teacher every day, Mr Ingram said: "No."

However, he said he expected youngsters to be taught at least "once a week" rather than every day. He argued peripatetic teachers, who move from school to school, were sufficient.

He said: "You don't want to be taking children miles away from their local communities. It is quite clear from the research that has been done, in terms of child development, it is important you have professionals and practitioners who have significant training of cognitive development.

"That is not to say teachers are the only educational professionals who could be involved."

Teachers attacked the removal of class nursery teachers.

A spokesman for Scotland's biggest teaching union, the EIS, said: "It is clear that having fleeting contact with a teacher is not the same as being taught full-time by a teacher. We are now seeing serious reductions in the number of nursery teachers employed across the country."

He accused the government of creating a postcode lottery in nursery provision, with children in some areas being taught five days a week by a teacher, while youngsters in other areas have only very limited access to their nursery teacher.

He added: "The Scottish Government must take firm action now, to protect nursery education and ensure that all young children, no matter where they live in the country, enjoy the same quality of nursery education delivered by registered teachers."

Rhona Brankin, Labour's education spokeswoman, accused the Scottish Government of having let parents down.

"When parents read the manifesto, it didn't mention once a week. Parents read it as meaning permanent access for their child to a teacher," she said. "They have really pulled the wool over people's eyes; they have deceived Scotland's parents."

Tina Woolnough, of pressure group Parents in Partnership, said the government had been naive or deceiving.

Ms Woolnough, also chairwoman of the board of Blackhall Nursery, an Edinburgh charity, added: "Parents believed access to a nursery teacher would mean their child would have a nursery teacher full time.

"If they didn't mean a teacher in the conventional sense, they could have been clearer about it in the manifesto. Who is going to pay for this is the big question. Nurseries cannot afford teachers.

"The SNP were either deceiving or extremely naive to think that this would ever be possible because it had been tried and failed before."

Mr Ingram also attacked Glasgow City Council for reducing pre-school teacher numbers and refusing to meet class-size targets. Councils, such as Glasgow, have been cutting nursery teacher numbers and replacing them with nursery nurses who are paid around £10,000 less a year.

Mr Ingram said Glasgow's Labour administration would be likely to face electoral losses if it continued to reject Scottish Government priorities.







The full article contains 636 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 September 2008 10:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

subrosa,

29/09/2008 00:37:35
Why do nursery children require to be 'taught' by a teacher? I thought nursery was mainly for wee ones to learn social skills and play.

If nursery nurses aren't fully trained to ensure small children are adequately looked after in nurseries then train them to a higher degree.
2

Andra, Dundee,

29/09/2008 00:40:33
So many broken promises.
Either the SNP did not expect to win the election so they were comfortable giving all these promises that they did not expect to have to deliver OR they cunningly thought they would deceive us.
3

Resolutions,

29/09/2008 00:57:16
#2 Try blaming the LAs - they are saing money by this caper. They are the employers and they are breaking the rules not the Government.

#1 If you train them more - they cost more! Children learn through play and that is a skilled job guiding play so the wee ones do not realise they are learning.
4

jimboo,

the real world 29/09/2008 00:59:35
After listening to the SNP garbage for years I find it funny to watch them backtrack on everything and the more to the right they lurch the more their supporters go into denial, imagine, they are more to the right than Labour. But they only have to fool 25% of the voters to stay in power, but independence under this lot, no chance. Scotch pie in the sky.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/09/2008 01:01:16


subrosa ~1,

Your comment on this article, is one of 101% accuracy, 101% sense, and one of 'Absolute Truth'!

Being with my DYW, who has been working in the,....
...... "Nursery Sector" for 10years now I think that I am more than Qualified, to know about Children's welfare in all aspects, and YES, their is no-need for a teacher, in the Nurseries Settings,

Nursery Nurses ARE Qualified these days, to maximise nursery Children's development in preparation for school.
6

Guga II,

Rockall 29/09/2008 04:57:49
I notice that all these rabid Unionists, including the mob at the Hootsmon, expect the SNP to accomplish in the 18 months they've been in power, all the things that the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party did not accomplish in their 50 years of misrule in Scotland.
7

Pilrig,

Livingston 29/09/2008 05:58:21
4 - more to the right of Labour ? excuse my laughter, so the SNP are preparing to involve us in illegal wars, force auld filk to work beyond 75, foist ID cards on us.... ?
8

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 06:20:43
"Parents and teachers last night reacted angrily to the revelation and said they felt deceived by the government."

I honestly cant stop laughing at this part.
I am trying to picture parents and teachers displaying unbridled fury at reading these revelations which only came out early this morning.
The Scotsman must be referring to teachers and parents working the nightshift.
We should now brace ourselves for parents and teachers on the day shift reading this with their breakfast and decorating each other with porridge spittal in their unbridled fury at the SNP.
I was going to post through the tears of laughter you couldnt make this up but obviously you can.
9

Finnzz,

29/09/2008 06:45:46
I wonder which teachers and parents they dug out to respond to this. There's probably a standby list to call whenever there's an issue regarding schooling.

Lets see, perhaps they called a Mr Roy (he's a teacher) and maybe a Mr Brown (he's a parent).

But instead of agreeing that the steps taken to provide nursery teaching are improving beyond what any other administration provided, its more doom and gloom designed purely to prop up a tired and out-of-touch labourite mindset.
10

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 06:48:17
I think I know what happened last night

Scotsman reception: Hello caller wits up?

Caller: Hello A wid just like tae express ma unbridled fury at the SNP fur fartin aboot wie ma wee chuggies edukation in nursury.

Scotsman reception: Oh hud on the noo Al pass ye on tae one o oor very top jurnalists.

Fiona McCleod: Hullo caller this is one of the Scotsmans very top jurnalists wits up?

Caller: Ah am incandecent wie wit is it again aye rage thats it ower this SNP guvernment fartin aboot wie ma wee shuggies edukation in nursery.

Fiona: Aye great stuff gies yer name hen ah wull stop the presses and get this oot the night.

Caller: Aye yer a wee gem hen the names Alexander but ma pals call me Wendy.
11

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/09/2008 07:41:15
Ladyboy alert at #8 and #10.
12

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 07:43:40
11

You wish.
13

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/09/2008 07:47:37
Hey #10 parcel/spanners/jackie priest, what the heck is that post about?

Have you been on the crystal meth again?

Jeezo what a weirdo.

He will be signing under his multiple logins in a minute and will start agreeing/arguing with himself.

See a doctor before you turn into Scotland's Josef Eritzl.
14

Bridged and tunnelled,

Central 29/09/2008 07:54:35
Charles Linskail - you're 100% innumerate, obviously.

This was a promise made, and is now being broken. Local authorities may be saving money by employing nurses not teachers, but that isn't the main problem (though so much for the much vaunted Concordat?)

The fundamental issue is that Slime-ond promised something he knew he couldn't deliver. He has done likewise on class sizes.

Does he think lying and obfuscating is the way to create the golden dawn of our glorious independent future?
15

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 07:55:51
13

To fit that bill it would have to be proven I posted at 13 as well.
16

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 07:57:46
14

The SNP promised the funding to allow more teachers to be trained. They didnt promise to train them themselves.
Now the teaching authorities admitted they received the funding so the SNP has kept its part of the deal.
17

TWC,

Ayrshire 29/09/2008 08:05:41
I can't get really upset about nursery places when people are struggling financially. I'v always felt that one parent should be available to look after the children or we shouldn't have them.
18

Boy Wonder,

29/09/2008 08:14:13
With a minority govt ... it's rather obvious that SNP won't get most of their promises through. All the other parties are stopping them by sabotage ... then accusing them of not keeping their promises.

Gimme a break, eh? Does this rage think that, like 95 yr old Chuckles Linskaill, we're all daft??
19

Boy Wonder,

29/09/2008 08:14:35
*rag, not rage obviously!
20

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/09/2008 08:20:17
So long as the kids have access to a nursery that is what is important i think. Nursery teacher, who cares as i am sure nursery nurses have just as much experience anyway.What is important is the provision of nursery places.
21

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 08:28:24
20

No what is really important is the Scotsmans gets out another anti SNP rant before the by election.
22

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/09/2008 08:28:50
#15 Parcel, credit where it is due. That was a good reply.
23

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 08:37:16
22

It was a waste of posting space.
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 08:56:43
Another knock-on effect of the great SNP swindle that is the local government concordat. Between the concordat and the freeze on Council Tax (not to mention to planned drastic cuts that come with the National Income Tax, or as they laughably call it Local Income Tax, proposals) the role of local government now is to be blamed for every failure of central government.

COSLA have been utterly foolish in agreeing to this swindle, and the people who will lose out are the people of Scotland.
25

Calvinist,

29/09/2008 09:06:43
The 1982 Labour manifesto was branded the longest suicide note in history but the 2007 SNP manifesto is turning out to be the shortest piece of fiction in history.
26

Calvinist,

29/09/2008 09:10:44
#22

He's a great asset. The SNP need more spokesmen like him.
27

Vote UKIP,

29/09/2008 09:14:02
The SNP is deceiving voters over its claim that Scotland will be 'independent' within the EU.

Only UKIP can offer Scotland true independence!!
28

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 09:15:29
20

Or whats even more important than that is to keep feeding their trolls to prevent them from moving over to the daily retard blogs.
29

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 09:21:32
If this blog doesnt pick up soon I am going to get seriously bored. Is this all the trolling kingdom has to offer today?
All those 6 month training courses and this is the result so far?
30

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/09/2008 09:43:44
Yet another broken promise from the masters of spin.
31

walter,

29/09/2008 09:46:06
Another day another broken promise, whats new? but of coarse it is not the SNP's fault it is every body else's fault.
It is Westminster's, the Oppositions, the Unionists, the Councils, the Farmers, the Police, the doctors, the Nurses, the Students, the Teachers, the Parents. the Children's anybody's and everybody's fault but not the SNPs that they are breaking promises they made to be elected on and are now not delivering on them.
32

subrosa,

29/09/2008 10:30:43
#3 If you train them more - they cost more! Children learn through play and that is a skilled job guiding play so the wee ones do not realise they are learning.

Of course they do! Why can't we be like other European countries and offer a basic number of hours a week for nursery care then the parents pay for anything over and above that? Why has everything got to be free in this country? Free nursery care, free schooling, free further education. We're not a bottomless pit and something has to give. Then of course we have the 'free' benefits system. I won't go there ...
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 10:45:43
#4 jimboo

trollery at its most blatant !

34

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 10:47:24
32

Nothing is free its all paid for through your taxation.
Income tax, local tax, National insurance tax, Road tax, TV tax, VAT, Airport tax, inheritance tax etc.
If the b*ggers taking our taxes cant manage them properly then you get shortages in Scotland case our shortages stem from the fact that our government has to run a nation on a Barnett formula derived income.
Dont ask me what the excuses the UK government has they get to play with all the income raised.
35

57vintage,

Keith 29/09/2008 10:50:45
"The fundamental issue is that Slime-ond promised something he knew he couldn't deliver. He has done likewise on class sizes"

Aye, power's a bit different from standing carping in the technical area.

Still, all the Fifers and Lothian dwellers now save a quid every time they cross the Forth. That was some fiscal decision, Swinney loon.

Frozen cooncil tax and mayhem with budgets in Aiberdeen where the Nats share power with the LibDems - is there any connection? Please tell us in this new open government era.

Speak up.
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 10:50:59
#14 You tell us a lot bout yourself by your language of choice:

Quote:

"Slime-ond"

I imagine that you are a nasty piece of work.
37

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 10:55:10
#24 Duncan

quote:

"COSLA have been utterly foolish in agreeing to this swindle, and the people who will lose out are the people of Scotland."

How can someone agree to a swindle? More nonsensicle rantings from wee Dunc !
38

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 10:55:42
35

When he made the promise how could he have known he COULDNT deliver it? what you say doesnt make sense but then I doubt if its supposed to.

And exactly just what did he promise? did he promise to train up and deliever nursery school teachers himself or did he promise to provide the funds in order for somebody else to do it? remind me.
39

jimboo,

national tree huggers convention, sahara forest 29/09/2008 11:08:16
7# "so the SNP are preparing to involve us in illegal wars"
No they already have.
SNP granted an £18.5 million contract to CACI UK, a subsidiary of the firm accused of involvement in torture in Abu Ghraib. The SNP in doing this are involved in illegal wars.
The SNP fully support the Raytheon plant in Glenrothes, this company plays a major role in the illegal wars.
They are war criminals as are Labour as are the American Republicans.
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 11:18:03
#37 You agree to a swindle if you don't recognise it as a swindle. In the case of COSLA, their ability to recognise it was depleted by the offer of the removal of ring-fencing, which gave the appearance of greatly improved freedom for autonomous decision-making, but which in fact just left them carrying the can for the SNP's abject failures, both now and in the future.

One one level such cunning from the SNP is to be applauded - it was clever politics - but on the other, since it will be detrimental to every single person living in Scotland, since it was deeply hypocritical, and deliberately deceitful, it's probably not so admirable.
41

Ewan M,

29/09/2008 11:20:21
Surely people in Scotland are starting to see through the smarm and charm of Slamonds SNP. More deception in what they are doing and what they promised to do.

42

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/09/2008 11:26:24
I don't see the point of nursery schools. My generation got on perfectly well without them. We acquired social skills through playing with other children of the same age under the supervision of our mothers and other relatives.
43

Micropacer,

29/09/2008 11:54:08
Urban Guerrilla thanks to high house, food, oil and utility prices most of us have to work. Im 34 and couldnt afford kids if myself and my wife didnt work 40+ hourse per week. Its a sacrafic we have to make to have our children. We are both paid under 20k each and struggle to make ends meet - £600 per month in Nursery fees per child!!

Thats life but the SNP are the best of a bad lot. Labour and the Tories are only interested in big business - as that funds their parties and gives them there income when they leave politics.

Labour have done nothing to help us - we are paying our taxes and working hard yet all the benifits and breaks Labour organized are for the people at the bottom of the rung who dont work or are single mothers etc. The problem is these so called people at the bottom have more spare cash than people like me and my wife - we have £50 a month at the moment left after our bills so if anything goes wrong or we need clothes were stuck!!

Gordon Brown hasnt a clue - taking from the middle to give to the bottom - the problem is the middle has been squeezed to death.

Im going to have to get a part time job now aswell. Anyway rant over - I look forward to the comments on "you didnt have to have kids". Without them there will be no one to pay taxes in the future to fund everything when your and I are older! We need kids.
44

Alan B,

29/09/2008 12:01:19
Reading the article I cannot see what the government have changed and what promise has been broken.

There pledge was woolly and did not give specifics. As such when it is clarified it can hardly be breaking promises.

The article also ignores the real issue for parents. That the cost of nursery places are huge and public some funding is only available at about 3/4yrs.

For parents to fund a nursery place to enable them to work to many will not be financially viable.

From my own experience it cost about 8,000 a yr to put a kid to nursery. Personally would like it tax deductable so that you can pay for the cost before paying tax.

Part of the problem with labour while lettting parent having to fund this huge cost of a nusery place they are also asking these same parents to fund it huge tax rises.

45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 12:03:22
#44 Labour's Working Families Tax Credits are aimed precisely at families like yours. They are not aimed at those who don't work, nor solely single parent families. I would have hoped that your family could have benefited from them. I'm sure you would have checked out your entitlements - were you close to qualifying?
46

Alan B,

29/09/2008 12:11:13
#Duncan

In the real world the problem is the huge cost for parents to fund the cost of a nursery place. Under labour parents have to fund the cost of a nursery place (about 8,000 a yr personal experience), with no tax breaks (that is what i would like rather than the bueacracy of benefits system).

But while having to find these huge costs we also have to pay for the huge tax rises under labour.

Labour want it both ways. People are left to their own devices to pay for child care, but are hit by huge taxes. It should be either or.
47

vimto,

29/09/2008 12:11:15
41. unfortunatly, some see salmond as the new messiah,but,he is nothing more than a money grabbing fraud.
48

Alan B,

29/09/2008 12:15:29
The other problem for parents is if you give up work for a while to look after the kid the pension system is in a mess. Made worse by labour with their pension grab and failure to deal with polices for an aging population.

49

walter,

29/09/2008 12:25:03
#38
Pg 51 from the SNP manifesto states.
We are concerned at the removal of nursery teachers from nurseries in some council areas.
We will deliver access to a fully qualified nursery teacher for every nursery age child, starting with
children in deprived communities.

Note the word "We".
It is the SNPs manifesto for when they come into government, it is not a manifesto for local councils.
When they say we that means they the SNP and they are not delivering anything different from what was in place before.
50

57vintage,

Keith 29/09/2008 12:39:09
38 - see 50 above - Walter has the links that I don't.

"When he made the promise how could he have known he COULDNT deliver it?"

I'm not sure that that makes much sense to me either, but it is usual during election campaigns (and believe me I've seen many, including working for the SNP more than once) for manifesto commitments to be costed. Whether or not the dilution of promises means that there isn't the cash there to make the full promised commitment isn't clear, but I suspect that that would be the case ie the Government has discovered that it hasn't got the money.

I stand by my original comment that governing responsibly is more difficult tahn nay-saying from the dug out and as the immediately populist low-cost policies are implemented, it becomes tougher on a daily basis to meet uncosted commitments.

That's the difference between being an opposition single-issue pressure group garnering protest votes at election time and the responsibility of (albeit minority) government.

The number of "4 legs good, 2 legs bad" knee-jerk commentators on these pages is quite alarming.
51

Alan B,

29/09/2008 12:44:11
#walter

That is just a silly sematical argument. They were always talking about delivery via the councils and removing councils from ring fencing.

The more fundamental problem for the snp. Is how can you remove ring fencing to all councils real local democracy and choosing their own priorities and then set out national policies for them to delivery. It is a similar problem to that labour had. It ring fenced so much spending there was little reason for councils as they were simply spending money on central governments priorities whether they wanted to or not.

With labour not letting council choose their own priorities and the snp wanting a nationally set local government tax is their any real point in councils?


52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 12:56:25
50

"We will deliver access to a fully qualified nursery teacher for every nursery age child, starting with
children in deprived communities.

Note the word "We".
It is the SNPs manifesto for when they come into government, it is not a manifesto for local councils.
When they say we that means they the SNP and they are not delivering anything different from what was in place before."

Walter do you or do you not interpret this to mean the SNP members of Parliament promise to go out and personally advertise interview and recruit new nursery School teachers?

Or do you or do you not interpret this to mean the SNP government will provide the necessary means in order to allow the recruitment of nursery School teachers?
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 12:57:37
51 see 53.
54

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 29/09/2008 13:04:55
Well what do you know, yet another broken pledge from the SNP election manifesto.

They make up the meanings to words as they go along - I'm awaiting what their next definition of so-called "independence" will actually be.
55

democracy,

Scottish Borders 29/09/2008 13:19:45
I too, agree fully with #1 subrosa, what is NEW Labour ranting on about, if you look back you will find they themselves were worse than present times, so, as usual, mindless rhetoric from the clueless opposition!!
56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 13:20:26
55

Well what do you know another troll logon playing a broken record.
57

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 13:26:24
#39 jimboo

What a silly comment.
58

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 13:27:45
#40 Duncan

How can the removal of ring-fencing possibly be a swindle. That makes no sense.
59

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 13:29:51
#48 And you are nothing more than a troll !
60

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 29/09/2008 13:41:17
The argument for putting children into nursery schools rather than looking after them at home seems to be that two incomes are required to provide for a family.

But is it really the case that people in general are much worse off than they were in the 1950s, when only one income was enough to keep a family? It seems bizarre that after half a century of economic growth people should be much poorer than they used to be.
61

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/09/2008 13:50:21
Hey Parcel, excellent post at #53. I agree with you 100%.
62

democracy,

Scottish Borders 29/09/2008 13:53:18
#55 Liberal for life, just as I would have expected from a Liberal poster, using words like manifesto which they do not understand, and even if they did,know full well they will never have to implement one, end of story!!!

Also a well named poster,'Liberal for life', already knows that his/her politics has no room for manoeuvre, disillusionment or adjustment of idealism etc, leaving the door closed for progression of thought through modernity of political movements.

So in essence,you are telling everyone that you allow the Lib/Dems to do all your thinking for you when you say 'Liberal for Life', oh dear oh dear!!
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 14:06:47
#59 That isn't what I said. #40 explained it quite effectively, I'm not going to repeat it.
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 14:12:18
62

I am finally fulfilled.
65

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 14:14:32
40

What abject failure?
66

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 29/09/2008 14:24:09
I’ve got Scotland on my mind

You can tell me of an empire that existed long ago
And the stories of the glories of its past
Of how a once proud nation could unite beneath its flag
Yet lose its spirit once the die was cast

But I can see a future where my country will be free
And I can hold my head high in the sun
The ancient pride of Alba will return to my land
And the writ of other nations will not run

I’ve got Scotland on my mind, I’ve got Scotland on my mind
And the saltire’s flying proudly o’er the land
For the times they are a-changing
And the ties no longer bind
I’ve got Scotland, I’ve got Scotland on my mind

As that fateful dawn approaches, I will hear a siren voice
That will try to sow the seeds of doubt and fear
But I’m among my ain folk, in my ain beloved land
I’m not fearful, for I see the way is clear

I’ve got Scotland on my mind, I’ve got Scotland on my mind
And the saltire’s flying proudly o’er the land
For the times they are a-changing
And the ties no longer bind
I’ve got Scotland, I’ve got Scotland on my mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUZYyxKE0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784

67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 14:25:58
#66 parcel.

Careful, he's not going to repeat himself (see #64)
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 14:26:55
The fact that his post at #40 is ill-informed drivel does not seem to matter to duncan.
69

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 14:29:56
If i might offer an interpretation of duncan's post at #40.

I think he is saying that the removal of ring-fencing was a swindle and that it is to the detriment of every person living in Scotland.

Clearly it wasn't and it isn't !
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 14:39:41
#24 According to duncan, the freezing of the grossly unfair, regressive Council Tax is bad for the people of Scotland and the introduction of the progressive Local Income Tax is also bad for the people of Scotland.

Duncan also sees the local government concordat as a "great swindle" and numerous failures of central government.

Are you living on a different planet from everyone else duncan? No wonder you refuse to repeat this bunkum.
71

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 15:05:37
#71 Tax cuts = service cuts. We're already seeing them across the whole country.

Oh, and income tax isn't "local" if it is set, collected and distributed nationally.
72

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 15:23:00
72


#71 Tax cuts = service cuts. We're already seeing them across the whole country.

Completely false analogy Tax increaces = service cuts
services have been and are continuing to be cut all over the country in spite of record levels of taxation.

Yer posting bullsh*t as usual.
73

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 15:26:40
#73 Oh dear. And I imagine black is white, too, if Alex says so?
74

walter,

29/09/2008 15:31:27
#52/53
When I see we will deliver then I expect them to deliver.
Have they delivered a freeze in CT or have the councils delivered a freeze in CT.
The councils have frozen CT but the SNP have taken the credit for it and been praised for such.
If they wish to take the credit for delivering then they must take the blame for not.
75

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 15:32:47
74

Alex didnae tell me like everybody else including you I noticed it affecting my everyday life in Edinburgh.
76

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 15:42:51
#74 In Edinburgh are you? So you'll be familiar with the shelved schools buildings programme which the SNP promised beofre the election to match "brick for brick"? The crumbling Portobello High which is now High and Dry? The shelved schools maintenance programme? And all of this following the building of more than 40 new or refurbished schools across Edinburgh by the previous (Labour) administration?
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 15:43:47
#72 How can you possibly know what the final structure of LIT will be? I understand that the SNP and the Libdems are still discussing the details.
78

Hamish Scott,

29/09/2008 15:51:14
"SNP accused of deceiving parents over key pledge on nurseries...until now, the Scottish Government has never confirmed what "access" meant, despite pressure from opposition parties, teachers and parents."

If the SNP 'never confirmed' what access meant then how can confirming it be a deception?
79

Hamish Scott,

29/09/2008 15:52:30
Dear Scotsman

Three anti-SNP headlines and articles today. They are really getting to you, aren't they?
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 16:02:38
#77 duncan

What "shelved schools building programme"?

Are you referring to the 100 currently being built or refurbished, to be followed by a further 200 during the lifetime of the parliament?

That is more than were built in almost 10 years under the Labour/Libdem administration.
81

vimto,

29/09/2008 16:04:17
60. I'll troll all day long if it stops salmond from destroying this country!
82

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 16:04:17
#78 Swinney published a consultation paper laying out what the SNP wants it to be. I don't need your or anyone else's permission to go ahead and criticise the SNP on the basis of their own proposals, thanks very much.
83

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 16:05:48
#81 The one in Edinburgh. 5 new schools. Shelved. Following a period in which the Labour administration built or refurbished 40 schools. In Edinburgh alone.
84

Hen Broon,

tinyurl.com/6m3w2t 29/09/2008 16:19:39
And then we have the truth but why would this paper with it's pro britnatz agenda bother with that?

http://tinyurl.com/46wa5g


ALBA GU BRATH.
85

Hen Broon,

tinyurl.com/6m3w2t 29/09/2008 16:20:54
#84. Make your mind up do you want trams or schools?
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 16:26:06
#83 So, I assume that you don't understand the purpose of a Consultation Paper.

Everyone with a bit of intelligence knows that to get the LIT through parliament, it will need to be supported by the Libdems. To get this support there will need to be locally set taxes. The indications are that this will happen once the new tax system has bedded in.

Things are moving on duncan, keep up
87

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 16:38:36
82

Yes I am sure you can convince him to set his policies by your posts.
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 29/09/2008 16:40:36
77

Yes I am familiar with the SNP manifesto promises set over their term in government whats yer point?
89

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 16:43:15
#86 As I have told you before, though you are a prime example of a Braveheart Nat who finds it impossible to hear such comments, this is a false choice.

The SNP, in the personages of both Alex Salmond and John Swinney, said at the time that they tried to stop the trams scheme that they would have spent the allocated money on other transport schemes across Scotland.

The SNP would not have spent a single extra penny on schools had they succeeded in stopping the trams.

It's time this lie was stopped in its tracks.
90

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 16:45:08
#87 The SNP set out their stall. I am responding to it. If they wanted to say they would introduce local rate setting they had the opportunity to do so, but they chose to propose a nationally set tax. Your suggestion that because they cannot force this wish through it is somehow no longer their plan makes no sense at all.
91

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 16:46:50
#90 So what is it duncan? Trams or schools? We need to know.
92

Rufus T. Firefly,

29/09/2008 16:47:40
#88 Parcel. Another great post. You are on top form today.
93

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 16:49:16
#91 Hey duncan. Let me spell this out simply.

The unfair, hated Council Tax OUT

The progressive, fair LIT (local or national)IN

Can you see what they are doing? OK?
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

29/09/2008 16:56:45
#94 Let me spell this out. The SNP's LIT proposals are deeply flawed. They set a national rate of tax, which is collected nationally. This removes fiscal accountability from local authorities, a vital element of local democracy which has been in place since the Poor Laws. They homogenise the tax system, opening the door much more to tax avoidance, especially for the rich. And they are introducing it alongside the biggest bribe in the history of the Scottish Parliament - a £350 million tax cut which, due to the progressive nature of income tax, goes directly to the richest and those on middle incomes, and does nothing for the poor that the move to income tax wouldn't have done in any case.

Your use of "hated" and "progressive" is an attempt to use emotion to remove the argument from fiscal fact into airy fairy wishes. It is dishonest. But then that is the stock in trade of the SNP, so I shouldn't be surprised.

#92 I have answered this already. That was not the choice that the SNP offered. The schools budget restriction imposed by the SNP has nothing to do with trams since they wanted to spend that money on other transport, not schools. Labour were managing to do both.
95

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 17:10:13
#95 duncan

I don't agree with you. I don't see how a nationally set rate "removes fiscal accountability from local authorities" as you state.

Nor will it open the door to much more tax avoidance for the rich (many of whom already pay little or no tax).

Anyways, duncan you had better get used to it because LIT is coming. Of that there is no doubt.
96

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 17:11:21
#95 i forgot. On the subject of trams -v- schools. Why are you willing to believe what Salmond and Swinney say, only when it suits you to do so?
97

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/09/2008 17:11:59
Further to #97.

That was a rhetorical question.
98

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/09/2008 17:51:25
Nurseries are for parents to dump their kids while they work.

Teachers? FFS, the parents should be doing that until their kids go to primary school.

Let's get the trades description in here. Who should be in a nursey - a teacher os a nurse?

Time parents got real.
99

Nevsky,

Moscow 29/09/2008 18:08:14