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Local income tax leads SNP 'programme for the people'



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Published Date: 03 September 2008
ALEX SALMOND today promised to introduce 15 new Bills to the Scottish Parliament over the next 12 months, including one to abolish the council tax and replace it with a local income tax.
The First Minister claimed the tax switch – a flagship policy in last year's SNP election manifesto – was not only right and fair, but necessary in the face of the increased economic pressures people now faced. However, the Bill may well not appear until the middle of next year.

The Nationalists will also struggle to win support for it because, despite widespread criticism of the council tax across all parties, only the Liberal Democrats support a local income tax – and they disagree with the SNP on key details of how it should operate.

Other measures set out in the Scottish Government's legislative programme for the next year include laws to set official targets for the reduction of carbon emissions, restrict the display of cigarettes in shops and separate local government and Scottish Parliament elections.

A Criminal Justice Bill, described by ministers as "ambitious and wide-ranging", will have to await the outcome of consultations under way on action against alcohol misuse and plans for new sentencing guidelines.

And after the Government's embarrassing defeat before the summer over plans to merge the Scottish Arts Council and Scottish Screen into a new body Creative Scotland, ministers have decided to revive the proposal in a Public Service Reform Bill rather than face a six-month delay to reintroduce the previous legislation.

Opposition parties will goad Mr Salmond and his colleagues for the absence of a referendum Bill from today's list of measures, but the SNP has repeatedly said it will not bring forward such legislation until 2010.

The Government described today's package as "a programme for the people and communities of Scotland".

A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: "Many of the measures directly relate to the issues uppermost in people's minds at the moment, particularly the pressure on household budgets. Abolition of the council tax would help the majority of people and lift tens of thousands out of poverty.

"Over the next 12 months, we intend governing with the same energy as characterised our first year in office, and with absolute confidence in Scotland's ability to succeed."

Acting Scottish Labour leader Cathy Jamieson said the SNP's programme for government should be addressing the fact that the increase in health spending in Scotland had fallen behind the rest of the UK and setting out measures to ensure new schools were built and class sizes started to fall.

The Bills in full

The measures announced are:
• Abolition of Council Tax Bill: introduces a local income tax.

• Climate Change Bill: sets a target of 80 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2050.

• Health Bill: takes forward measures on tobacco sales including keeping cigarettes under the counter.

• Criminal Justice Bill: includes action on alcohol and rules on sentencing.

• Public Service Reform Bill: includes setting up arts quango Creative Scotland.

• Flooding Bill: modernises Scotland's flood prevention regime and improves co-ordination.

• Local Government Elections Bill: ensures council and Holyrood elections aren't held on the same day.

• Additional Support for Learning Bill: extends rights of parents and young people with learning difficulties.

• Marine Bill: paves way for a new body, Marine Scotland.

• Rural Schools Bill: introduces presumption against closure of country schools.

• Legal Profession Bill: first significant legal reform since the 1980s.

• Arbitration Bill: modernises arbitration law.

• Children's Hearing Bill: strengthens the children's hearing system.

• Legislative Reform Bill: technical measure on how legislation is handled.

• The Budget Bill: Government must get this passed to allow it to press ahead with spending plans.



The full article contains 630 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 September 2008 3:26 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Boswall,

03/09/2008 12:25:28
Sooner the LIT is in, the sooner the public will see the 3% lie exposed.
2

Bigwull,

edinburgh 03/09/2008 12:26:15
Local Income Tax, how are those who are rich enough not to work going to pay this, also are the only people to pay this going to be on PAYE?
3

Labradoodle,

03/09/2008 12:41:19
So many people think that they will be better off with LIT - make sure you do your sums as you'll be surprised..

Over promise under deliver - should be the SNP slogan.

I work hard for my money I pay enough already to support other peoples' children, dole bludgers and the likes. With LIT I'll be paying even more.
4

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 03/09/2008 12:41:56
Programme for the people . A phrase like this means damnall apart from cheap populism . Salmond will be found out sooner or later . Like Blair , he is hiding behind slogans . Never trust a " man of the people " .
5

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 12:45:18
So that's it then? Ho hum - another year coming up of the Gnats doing nothing much for Scotland, and doing it awfy well.

Marine Bill: paves way for a new body, Marine Scotland. Geez - stop all the clocks then.

Just like last year, there is nothing of substance in their legislative programme at all. Except LIT, of course - the Gnats' best hope there is that the other Parties block it, giving them someone else to blame as well as Westminster. If the Gnats do manage to get it through, it will be their Poll Tax.

Expect a rash of sycophantic Gnat apologists on this thread any minute now, denouncing all critics as "Unionist traitors" and hailing King Smug as a visionary who is "standing up for Scotland".

Salmond really is the living embodiment of empty vessels making most noise. Bombast in inverse proportion to substance.
6

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 12:52:11
In theory the local income tax is not a bad idea, but the problem is that the SNP are not being honest when the sums don't add up but rather seem to be brushing the problem under the carpet. As for an 80% reduction in CO2 by 2050, they simply don't have the policies to implement that
7

Reuldubh,

Cockenzie 03/09/2008 12:53:06
I wish all you anti LIT folks would actually come up with a better system than just moaning about it? So come on geniuses.
8

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 12:55:39
"Abolition of the council tax would help the majority of people and lift tens of thousands out of poverty."

So would hard work - haven't the SNP learnt anything from the labour government in Westminster. The only way to help people is to help them help themselves. Policies that encourage education and hard work are what is required, not rewarding those who will do nothing to better themselves.
9

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

03/09/2008 12:56:43
"wish all you anti LIT folks would actually come up with a better system than just moaning about it? So come on geniuses."

PAY AS YOU GO.
10

an interested party,

03/09/2008 13:05:05
No3

how much do you earn likes ?

even if you pay £10 K in tax that barley pays for 10 hrs of helicopter time, hardly buys an anti tank missle, pays less than a 1/10th of a GPs salary, etc

but oh no you pay to 'support other peoples children, dole bludgers and the likes' how very very big of you

Me? i choose to think my taxes go directly to rescue workers nurses or firemen
11

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 03/09/2008 13:18:35
According to Alex Slimelond about 80% of Scotland will save 300 - 400 pound roughly with the new LIT. That leaves the remaining 20% to pay one hell of a lot of LIT. MMMMM I wonder if that 20% will stay in the country ?..... Or is it the typical Slimelond policy of populist ideas and when it doesnt work, blame Scottish Labour and Westminster. The Council tax isnt perfect but the LIT is not as brilliant as it seems. The people who bought there houses are quite happy to see house prices soar in the last few years. And they are happy to take the massive profits (especially if it was a cheaply bought council house).
12

Labradoodle,

03/09/2008 13:19:00
#10
Didn't realise you paid for helicopters with barley. I knew the cost of grain was going up but didn't realise it bought you air miles.

What I earn is f*%k all of your business. I've done my sums and I WILL be worse off.



13

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:22:33
Whenever something is hailed as "...for the people" or "The peoples..." it almost invariably means "Stupid, left wing idea which will hit the majority in the pocket, whilst pandering to those who are too lazy to fend for themselves."

I personally wouldn't get too excited about any of these proposals. Bills 3 & 4 appear to be business as usual for the SNP... Target the innocent with rules and regulations that would not have been out of place in 1930's Germany.

As for climate change, what is the point in drafting a bill about something over which we have no control, measured by something described using incorrect terminology?

The SNP are in some respects just stupid labour in disguise. Some of them talk quite a bit of sense but this is all ruined by MacAskill and Robison with their stupid witterings and nazi tendencies.

14

Ron D,

Enybru 03/09/2008 13:22:37
I'd prefer to only pay for what I use.
15

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, Embra 03/09/2008 13:24:02
#9 spreading the tax as widely (and thinly) as possible is better - piling more tax onto the economically active peeps narrows the base so we workers end up paying a pile - and when there's a slowdown and unemployment there's a greater impact on revenues.
So - retaining a property tax in some form is fine by me. You know how muich you've to pay and the council knows exactly how much they'll get. And houses don't move between jobs and areas, making it easy to collect. And for the poorest, you can have a council tax benefit scheme. Peter Birt did a good independent study and came exactly to that conclusion, after all.
16

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:29:07
Who actually thinks that Council Tax is unfair? Why is it unfair? I don't see the issue here. Whilst I, like most people, don't like paying tax, surely the Council Tax is a fair system whereby you pay per property, and based on the value of that property.

LIT has distinct similarities to the Poll Tax, which was a roaring success! LIT will adversely affect working couples, who will now be faced with two tax bills, rather than just sharing one....this also applies to working parents.

The only people who will end up better off, are those who already pay very little Council Tax, and are in a low income bracket. Surely it's about time the government invested in the people who actually supply Scotland with its wealth and prosperity.

No 8, i agree totally with you, it's about time that the hardwork is rewarded, and people who strive to make better lives for themselves are allowed to do so. Once again, LIT will hurt the real average person....who is very different to the SNP's so-called average Scot.

How are young couples supposed to afford a property now? Prices are already sky high, and Council Tax is a major consideration. Now they each have to pay an income tax, before they even consider buying a house !!!! This even applies to folks who live with their parents. The whole idea just stinks of the SNP trying to win some votes with the proletariat.

Labour were bad, but this is laughable !!
17

Foo,

03/09/2008 13:30:26
#12

Do you mean to tell me you haven't been paying your barley helicopter tax?!

You scoundrel.

18

johnny boy,

edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:32:15
The minority SNP administration looks set to make its first major gaffe. Do they really think the public will believe they are better off by changing the method of the collection of taxes for local authority funding? History is littered with tax changes leading to government changes - does Alex not remember poll tax? Leave the system the way it is and concentrate on arrears collection!
19

gorgeousgorgieboy,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:40:09
Well put #15 JKFFM. Entirely logical.
20

Reuldubh,

03/09/2008 13:40:55
#16 Me and my wife are both in full time employment and we have kids, I've done the sums and we wont be any worse or better off under LIT. And when my kids get older and start working I'll expect them to pay their share too. My elderly parents however will be better off..as it should be, they worked long and hard all their lives to buy a large house for their family, why should they (and other elderly)be penalised as under the current system? And many of those in "a low income band" are the ones who do all the nasty, crappy jobs that other people turn their noses up at!

21

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/09/2008 13:48:07
Spare us from this Nationalist Socialist nonsense. The sooner they're out the better.
22

lizziedripping,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:49:34
How come if I want to book a holiday or any other service it costs me the same as everyone else, whatever their income, yet, under the LIT, if I want my bins emptied it will cost me more or less than the person next door? Only in the parallel universe of local government does one individual pay less or more than another for an identical service simply on the basis of how much they earn.
23

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 13:52:41
#16 - "Who actually thinks that Council Tax is unfair?"

No-one likes paying taxes, no system is absolutely fair, and the Council Tax was getting its fair share of criticism along with all the rest (it is worth noting that the most-criticised tax in the UK is Income Tax - almost everyone will argue that they are paying proportionately more than they should). But no-one was really claiming any great unfairness for Council Tax until the Gnats (and to be fair the Lib Dems as well) decided to make that their mantra. It's a bit like the alleged popularity of the Gnat Government - Salmond, Sturgeon and co tell us all ad nauseam how popular they, and if you repeat a cliche often enough it becomes perceived as fact.

A property based tax like the Council Tax has its disadvantages, but a tax which is focused solely on those who earn a wage - eg the Poll Tax, or LIT - is not really any fairer (or perceived as such, which in politics is just as important) because it is too easily evaded by the really rich. The Gnats talking left and acting right - now that's a surprise :-)

The real surprise is that the Gnats, who since coming to power have been almost entirely about image and presentation rather than hard action, should lay such an obvious bear trap for themselves as LIT, which is doomed to prove deeply unpopular. A cynis might think that they are paying their Manifesto commitment lip service, confident that the other Parties will kill LIT and let them off the hook.

24

Reuldubh,

03/09/2008 13:55:26
I hadn't realised that this was such a Tory forum, Maggie would be proud of you all. Aye there's no such thing as "society" anymore right enough The cry must be "No to LIT, bring back the Poll Tax"
25

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:06:56
#20 The average UK wage is around £28,000 according to the Office of National Statistics. For Edinburgh, this is around the £31,000 mark. I've used Glasgow as an example for Council Tax, as they have a handy LIT calculator on their website, the average band D property would pay £1213.00. Clearly for a couple earning anything around the national average, LIT will be substantially more than Council Tax. Remember that you will also have to add the cost of water and sewerage onto the LIT bill, as this charge will still apply per property.

In response to your comment on the elderly, i understand where you are coming from, but why should the rest of us be penalised to subsidise the elderly? People are aware of their obligations once they retire, and they should provide for that accordingly.

I don't think that people turn their noses up at the 'crappy' jobs, or that people on low incomes are doing anyone a favour by taking those jobs. It's about choice. The folk who do those jobs don't have a choice other than to take such employment. It's not a case of turning your nose up; it's a case of being able to choose employment with better prospects and renumeration.
26

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:06:57
#24 - I think what we are saying is that LIT will be unfair, divisive and unpopular - just like the Poll Tax was. I don't think that anyone has actually called for the return of the Poll Tax however.

Nothing very Tory about not agreeing with LIT. What's Tory is the Gnats seeking to foist upon Scots a LIT which favours the better off to a greater extent than the present system does.

So a braveheart apologist is calling us Tory because we dare to challenge the Gnat orthodoxy. Well, at least it's a bit of variety from the usual Unionist traitors jibe, I suppose.

Gnats - talking left, acting right. Again.
27

Tynietiger,

03/09/2008 14:08:08
LIT is fairest of all and works perfectly well in Scandinavia, Germany, Switzerland and Canada to name a few countries which use LIT.
28

Hugh T,

Perth 03/09/2008 14:10:00
I agree with the vast majority of posters above. Alex Salmond, whae oh whae don't you learn from the success of the British Goverments of the last 30 years? Don't waste your time on the NHS or fair taxes or making the life of the average punter more healthy! Spend our cash on invading foreign countries and killing millions of their people. Look at the successes we've had recently. It's fabulous how our taxes are spent by our wonderful Labour Party to ruin lives, maim children and destroy society. These countries are gagging for Western Democracy, and their disgusting indigenous peoples are no more than insurgents.

Yes Alex. Be British like Gordon and tell the Jocks to sod off and take their humanity with them. We all want vilification of foreigners on our shores, our taxes used to prop us failing financial institutions, and the potential for catastrophe in the Middle East. Oh and more Nuclear Weapons and Nuclear Power Stations please.

In truth, SNP: not perfect but doing their best. Labour/Tory: intrinsically evil, destructive, Imperialist sleaze-ridden scum.
29

Reuldubh,

03/09/2008 14:21:18
#28 Amen to that

#25 The average wage in Edinburgh is £31000, aye right dodgy use of statistics there, I don't make anywhere near that,nor does my missus, and we're both well qualified and in good jobs. What jobs do the folk that make £31,000 work in?

30

Epicuras,

03/09/2008 14:30:24
#26 so what do you actually do for the (new)labour party then Ghengis?
31

Bottoms Up,

Blackhall 03/09/2008 14:32:04
Can Alex Salmond assure me that, as a tyical family, we will be no worse off.

I'm a chartered surveyor earning £50K
My wife is a paralegal eaning £25K
Our two daughters work in a bank and earn £15K each

So our total household income is £105K. We consider ourselves quite poorly paid to others in this estate.
32

Desperately Seeking.......a solution,

03/09/2008 14:32:16
With the recent coouncil workers strike which meant my bin wasnae collected - can I claim a rebate off me cooncil tax......
33

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:33:39
#29 You can look at the Office of National Statistics website, and you will see figures for the average salary. Or go to the SCROL website for the results of the Scottish census. To come out at around the same as Band D Council Tax for LIT, a couple would need to be on arounf £20k each, which is well below the national average. Your average graduate straight out of uni is on around £22k now. Qualified tradesmen also earn well above £20k; so i would ask you what good job would require you to be well qualified, and pay you less than £20k ?
34

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:43:56
#30 - Didn't say I was a Labour supporter, just that the Gnats are a bunch of charlatans. Smoke and mirrors.

Nice to see that all the braveheart apologists - King Smug's personal unpaid rebuttal unit, never mind the quality, feel the Saltire - are now out of their beds, up and running.

Gnats - doing nowt for Scotland, but doing it awfy well.
35

Bottoms Up,

Blackhall 03/09/2008 14:49:23
33#

I totally agree.

I know of plenty of civil servants complaining of low pay of around £30K. These are people in their thirties who have a degree but not much else.

Teachers, social workers, policemen and firemen all get around £30K.

I can only think of bank/shop/catering staff, postmen and delivery drivers who get paid as little as £20K
36

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 03/09/2008 14:56:05

28#

So are you for or against the LIT. Or do you normally just spout s***e like that ?.
37

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 14:59:33
#36 - He's a Gnat. So he normally just spouts s***e like that, I'm afraid.

You won't get reasoned argument off any of them, they just deal in cliches and shouted slogans.
38

johnny boy,

edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:00:58
A more radical solution would be to do away with local government altogether. Privatise everything they do. Why should individuals have to pay for many things the local authority do when they are not beneficiaries. The social work department of Edinburgh Council spend 93% of their budget in "socially deprived areas" where the peasants that live there pay 3% of the coucil tax collected.
39

Reuldubh,

03/09/2008 15:09:51
#31 I hope you're being sarcastic cos you're not "poor" in any sense of the word?

#33 I'm a electronics technician, I have a degree, 20 years experience and get paid £22k! I should have become a tradesman, all that college and uni education was a waste of time.
40

Joe,

Clermiston Road 03/09/2008 15:10:51
Still no bill for the Edinburgh Airport rail link..why the delay..?
As for local income tax, bring it on and let's see the back of the SNP when folk finally realise what a disaster they are.
41

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:14:47
You can tell how well the SNP are doing by the amount Unionist cant, whining and gnashing of teeth going on over issues that Labour, the LibDems and the Tories did sod-all about when they were in power. Such a display of rank Unionism just convinces more Scots of why it is far better to vote for the SNP.
42

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:18:29
#34 re: "Gnats - doing nowt for Scotland, but doing it awfy well."

No Scot would use the word "nowt". It must be the English in you!
43

Joe,

Clermiston 03/09/2008 15:22:19
#26.."Gnats - talking left, acting right. Again."

Alex Salmond has of course openly admired Thatcher policies.. Maggie stood slightly right of Attila, Alex stands far right of Genghis Khan..
44

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:27:26
#41 - One way you can tell how well the Gnats are doing is how often King Smug and his pals keep telling us all how wonderful they are. But the reality is that they have done very little in power. Their new legislative programme is largely hot air - nothing of substance there at all (Legislative Reform Bill: technical measure on how legislation is handled - wow, such vision and dynamism).

The Gnats have not laid a single brick on any major public project since they came to power. Not one school, not one hospital, not one anything has been instigated under their watch. Nor have they any way of funding such major public works, as their much vaunted replacement for PPP/PFI, the Scottish Futures Trust, is dead in the water.

All they have done so far is throw the voters a few lollipops - ditched bridge tolls, given free prescriptions to the 40% who actually paid for them and could afford to pay for them, taken $5m out of Health Borads' budgets to subsidise patient visitors' car parking. Oh, and picked pointless fights with Westminster (almost all of which they have lost) at every given opportunity, to make them look macho - "standing up for Scotland" my backside.

The invoices have still to come in for the votes King Smug has been buying with gesture politics, and it is, as per usual, Scottish voters who will ultimately pick up the tab.

The Gnats - running Scotland on tick.
45

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 03/09/2008 15:29:36

42#

Is that an anti English comment.

MMMM typical SNP slur. You must be one of the brainwashed SNP supporters. I take it you also believe in Nessie ?. Because you may as well if you think that Alex Slimelond is interested in making real decisions for the Future of Scotland rather than using populist ideas to further his own ambition of becoming the first President of Scotland.
46

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:31:08
#42 - You Gnats just can't help the borderline racism, can you? All you forgot was the usual "unionist traitor" garbage.

Born and bred in Edinburgh of Scottish parents, incidentally. Neither of whom thought it necessary to teach me how to fire a Kalashnikov, by the way.

47

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:32:03
#39 I think you may have made a serious career error there; but none-the-less, if your wife earns around the same, and your property is Band D or below, you'll be slightly worse off under LIT.

#41/42 Your lack of proper written skills, and apparent dislike of the English is just further proof of the point being made about the type of people who support the nationalists. This conversation is not about nationalist versus unionist, it's about whether LIT presents a fairer system. You should also note, that the vast majority of Scots did not vote for SNP, which is why they have formed a minority government.
48

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:33:41
#44 "nowt" is a common Northern English word. It does not appear in Scottish diction.
49

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:37:13
I suspect that most of the anti-SNP comments are being made by our English cousins. From what they are saying we Scots can conclude they know "nowt" about Scottish politics.
50

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:42:40
#43. So does that mean Gordon Brown will be inviting Salmond round for tea?
51

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:43:27
#48 - "Nowt" is in common usage in Scotland, as indeed are many words from Europe, Asia, USA, never mind England.

Is that a new Gnat policy then? That in the great separatist Utopia, we will only be allowed to use words which are personally approved by King Smug and his ScotLitburo as authentically Scottish? All school classes to be conducted only in guid Scots dialect, like? Will you be banning all foreign music, and resticting the state stations to a diet of the Corries and the Proclaimers to avoid cultural pollution?

Life under the joyless despotic Gnat dictatorship looks like being pretty austere.
52

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:44:16
#46 Why should anyone believe you? Yer talking bull(or "nowt" as we Scots used to say).
53

Labradoodle,

03/09/2008 15:44:42
#49 Rubbish. I can't imagine loads of English people are champing at the bit to comment on the EN news site somehow....

I'm scottish and I will NEVER vote SNP.

WAKE UP - the majority of Scottish people don't want the SNP and are not naive enough to believe the lies they spew.

54

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/09/2008 15:44:53
I couldn't give a xxxx if "nowt" is not in Scottish diction, I use this word as well, born and bred in Edinburgh of Scottish parents, what a pathetic complaint. I don't want LIT and I don't know anyone who does.
55

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:45:08
#46. Do you not see the any irony in accusing all 'gnats' of being borderline racist?
56

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:46:17
#51 Mon' Ghengis, being English is "nowt" to be embarrassed about.
57

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:46:53
#54. That's right, I find 'nowt' is in fairly common usage in Edinburgh.

I'm in favour of LIT btw (I'll save money with it).
58

A. Puschkin,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:49:39

Remember that people who are now pensioners and who are NOT on Benefits - have paid their taxes probably for 35 years - which went into a healthy Pension Fund which Gordon Brown raided.

Pensions in the Uk are one of the lowest in Europe and we are one of the richest countries in the EU.

As Pensions are so low - LIT will help these pensioners.

In New Zealand no pensioner pays any tax at all!!

We have done the working part - and now its somebody else's turn!

If pensions related to the average income - we coould afford to pay Council Tax!
59

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:50:10
#47. Correct. The majority did not vote SNP. However, the majority voted for parties that wanted to scrap the council tax. I was one of them.
60

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:51:24
#54 It would appear you know "nowt" about LIT, but you certainly can talk it.

You see what I did there, a play on national diction.
61

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:51:36
#49, 56 - Calum, you arrogant, clueless twot, a more logical conclusion would be that the anti-SNP comments are being made by some of the large majority of Scots who did not actually vote for the Gnats in May 2007.

I am well aware that being English is nothing of which to be ashamed, a view shared by 50m English I would imagine. But the fact remains that I am Scottish born and bred and proud of that (not that that is any big deal - it is not as if any of us can choose the location of our birth, being Scottish is simply a happy accident).

#55 - no, Merouane, I see no irony at all. Pouring scorn on a person's political affiliations is quite different from denigrating them because of where they happened to be born (see above). If you can't see the distinction there, you have the problem not me.
62

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:52:55
#49 I think you'll find that the majority of the SNP related comments are coming from educated Scots, who actually have an understanding of how this country finances itself, and care deeply about it being messed up.

Braveheart talk of how badly-done-by we are, and how everything is the fault of the Westminster Government, doesn't explain funding gaps and provide jobs. The majority of big business in Scotland is against the LIT, and with a disproportionate number of people in Scotland employed in the public sector compared with the rest of the UK, how does the SNP intend to finance things?

How will they finanace a health service where the average spend per head is £400 more than the rest of the UK, due to our sick man of Europe tag?

I am Scottish through and through, but i'm also a realist. Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland all gain from being part of a United Kingdom. I don't need to prove myself any more Scottish than i already am; the majority of prople are cultured and educated enough to be proud Scots without the need to send the country into bankruptcy just to own a Scottish Passport.
63

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 15:57:26
#60, Calum10 - yes, I saw what you did there. It wasn't big and it certainly wasn't clever. You're becoming quite tiresome. What does the 10 represent, your IQ?

Judging by this forum at least, there isn't much popular support for LIT now, even if a majority did vote for Parties who promised to scrap the Council Tax (not quite the same as promising to introduce LIT, by the way). You can't really extrapolate voters' intentions that way - we don't vote on the basis of one policy.
64

Calum10,

03/09/2008 15:57:37
#54, 61 and 62. Whatever you are, one thing is certain you are not Scottish. You may think you are Scottish, you are not mind, but keep taking the pills anyway.
65

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:01:42
Calum 10 - I despair, people like you are the reason our fine country has a bad name in some parts. If only you had gone to High School... what a waste.
66

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:06:19
#55. No I don't accept the difference. You are not arguing a political point. You are making grossly negative insinuations about people based on one aspect of their politics. In the same way as a racist can't see past someone's skin colour or place of birth.
67

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:06:44
Sorry, that should be to #61.
68

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/09/2008 16:07:40
Calum you really are a sad wee laddie, in case you hadn't noticed it is people like you who actually put people off voting SNP. I personally think they have done a good job up to now but the more times I see extremist comments made by the like of you it just makes me more determined not to vote for them.
69

Calum10,

03/09/2008 16:10:23
#65 Well Russell, Ghengis, Xena, or what-ever-else you call yourself, if you are Scottish then you must have seriously overdosed on Northern English soap-operas. No self-respecting Scot would use the words "nowt" and "twot" unless they were intent on cheating at Scrabble.
70

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:15:47
#62. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about the popularity of LIT (or council tax) based on this forum. These forums are full of people with political agendas (including myself of course). Either way, LIT isn't going to be popular, no tax is popular. Will it be less or more popular than the council tax though? From the people I speak to (including some who will lose out), they recognise LIT to be fairer.

We have had massive amounts of negative press regarding LIT ever since the SNP came to power. I'm sure that's playing a part here. I expect them to get it through (hopefully the more 'local' form as favoured by the Lib Dems) and as long as most folk don't lose out, then I don't imagine it will do the SNP much harm.

As for the funding the health service. Yes, we do spend more than the rest of the UK, but we also contribute more to the treasury. That would cover any shortfall.

Btw, I'd like to distance myself from the comments of Calum10. I don't really care where folk are from (in my experience the more vociferous unionists are Scots not English). Anyone who lives here has as much right as anyone else to decide what direction we take as a country.
71

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/09/2008 16:18:55
#70 Merouane well said, the more I read comments like yours I could be swayed to vote SNP on the basis that I do think they have done a good job.
72

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:19:17
#68. I suggest you read some of the bile from the Labour/Tory camp. There is even one Lib Dem supporter I have read who regularly posts pretty abusive comments directed towards the 'gnats'.

Or perhaps I do you a disservice. Are you a Green voter?
73

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:20:07
Calum 10 - I'm sure that your comments are entirely vaild, what with your clearly huge vocabulary and all. Do you seriously define Scottishness on the basis of what words people choose to use.

By the way, this is an extract from the Oxford Dictionary of Slang.

Nowt - Noun. Nothing. E.g."There's nowt wrong with it, it works fine, honest!" [Orig. Scottish/Northern dialect] {Informal}

You will see that the word 'nowt' has Scottish origins.
74

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:21:54
#69. Seriously. Give it up. I know a lot of folk in Edinburgh, who were born and raised here who used 'nowt' regularly. Some of whom are even SNP voters! If you think about the common linguistic heritage of the SE Scotland and NE England it makes sense.
75

Shave,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:24:36
#69 Calum10

No "self-respecting Scot" would play Scrabble. Obviously it must be the English in you. ;-)
76

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:24:52
#72 - Contribute more to the treasury..... are you serious ? You should check out the Scottish Government's webpage, you will find us far short on that front, even with the SNP's magical black liquid.
77

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:27:11
Have you got a link? I don't have anything to hand, but the last figures I saw put Scotland contributing more per head than any region of the UK other than London and SE England. On that basis, the contributions to the UK treasury at least compensate for the aditional spending we enjoy.
78

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:31:33
#66, Merouane - a very odd way to describe a political disagreement, but then you Gnats do love to feel persecuted. I can assure you that my criticism is directed at Gnat politics and that is not racism. I strongly disagree with the politics of Scottish separatism regardless of the nationality of those espousing them. I hope that clarifies it for you, but if it doesn't, please don't bother me with the point again. I have no antidote to your wilful incomprehension, I am afraid.

#69, Calum10 - aye, that's how you Gnat warriors can spot the traitor quisling English Unionists, son. We cheat at Scrabble by using words like "twot" and "nowt", usually on triple score squares. You really are a clown. But keep going, you're doing an excellent job drumming up support for any Party BUT the SNP.

#70, Merouane - "Anyone who lives here has as much right as anyone else to decide what direction we take as a country"

Well said. If a few more of your fellow travellers were similarly openminded and understood that being anti-SNP does not make one any less Scottish, we could have a much more mature debate about the future of Scotland.

I wasn't for a moment claiming that this forum represented a consensus, but I still think you are wrong about LIT and that it could well turn out to be the Gnats' Poll Tax. However time will tell. None of us has a crystal ball.
79

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:36:36
#77 http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/06/18170334/1

Link as above, although there is some amount of reading in that document! You are correct when you say we contribute more per head, excluding London and the Southeast, but we can't be picky about which areas of England we choose to look at. If we removed the Scottish Capital from our figures, i think we would have to paint a very different picture.

Also, our 'over contribution' is completely negated if you look at the public spending incurred, I previously gave an example of health. We also vastly overspend on almost every other public service, including education, transport, social care, and welfare.

I'm not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, just that we have it pretty good at the moment, so why the great need to change.
80

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:37:26
#77 - Depends whose statistics one chooses to believe. And frankly I don't think I'd trust those from the SNP website, the 15 odd months which have elapsed since May 2007 have shown that King Smug and his pals may be good at presentation, but they are very suspect at arithmetic.

The books simply don't balance. If Scotland was a commercial concern it would on the basis of its current income/expenditure ratio be heading towards administration.
81

Merouane,

03/09/2008 16:43:49
#78. Of course it's not racism, I never said it was. It's a similar mentality though. You just need to know one thing about my politics (that I believe Scotland should have an independent govnerment) and you view me to as some anti-English, woad wearing, Braveheart shouting, Unionist hating, 'national socialist' gnat. That is just the other side of the coin of the very people you hate.

It's a shame that every debate is so polarised around the independence/union question. There are idiots on both sides and the high emotions brings it all out. I think most folk can see that these people are hardly representative, even if they sometimes do dominate forums like these.
82

an interested party,

03/09/2008 16:51:09
seems most people dont like the idea of paying any tax
well here is a suggestion for you. earn lower
than the tax limit, nope you dont like that either

worse off by how much?

the price of a meal out for 4 maybe, perhaps your worse of by a long weekend in Paris, perhaps the difference is a set of new tyres it certainly isnt
a life or death difference for those that earn the
in the top 20%

my heart bleeds for them
83

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:57:01
For the record, the turnout in May 2007 was 51.7% in the FPTP vote and 52.4% in the list vote. The SNP took 32.9% of the former to Labour's 32.1%, and 31% of the latter to Labour's 29.2%. So of all Scots eligible to vote, less than 1 in 6 chose to vote SNP. More than 1 in 3 Scots chose to vote for Parties other than the SNP. And almost half of Scots chose not to vote at all. That is hardly a ringing endorsement of the SNP, far less a charge towards independence. No wonder there is no serious talk of an independence referendum.

So let's dispel this notion, mainly promoted by the Gnats, that they are hugely popular and in power by a landslide. They barely shaded it in the election, winning mainly on the back of list seats picked up from the two Tommy Parties following their self-immolation, and thanks to Salmond's clever trick with the ballot paper (a trick which has been outlawed next time round by the Electoral Commission, incidentally).

For all Scottish Labour's chaos and self-destruction, they actually dropped only 4 seats, and still held 37 FPTP seats to the SNP's 21. The SNP will doubtless continue to pick up by-election seats while Labour remains in meltdown, but there is no sign whatsoever of that translating to support for separation any time soon. As today's totally vapid legislative programme shows, the SNP are in office but not really in power, hamstrung by lack of an overall majority from any real political initiatives. Smoke and mirrors only work for so long. The bills start coming in eventually.
84

SPG,

edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:57:21
Why is income tax not connected to property seen as fair by the above neigh sayers, while a local income tax is not?
85

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 16:59:11
#82 You're missing the point. Why should anyone who makes a success of their life through hard work and effort be penalised for the sake of those who choose not to. Clearly the top earners will not notice much of a difference, and as you put it, the lowest earners will be able to afford a few more fish suppers, and a couple of packs of fags; but it's the average people that get screwed as per the norm.
86

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 17:00:50
#79. Thanks for the link. That's the report I was thinking of, although I've never read it, just the newspaper reports. So, just looking at the headline figure (including NS oil revenues - well I am a 'gnat' eh ;) ):
"In 2006-07, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a surplus of £0.8 billion (0.7 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue."

I agree with your point though, in general, things balance themselves out. This in itself is definitely not the reason for wanting to change things. Briefly, some of my reasons why we do need to change things... things are likely to change (Barnett scrapped, Tories in power etc), UK spending that is not accounted for in GERS that I disagree with (Trident, Iraq war etc), reserved areas that I believe Westminster are not serving our best interests (foreign policy, broadcasting etc), general good governance (I don't think it makes sense to have a government in Scotland that isn't responsible for raising it's own taxes), more efficient government (why are we paying for two parliaments? we need some UK/British Isles institutions, but I think Westminster is becoming more and more redundant)...
87

Russell339,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 17:03:36
#84 - I don't think anyone is claiming that income tax is fair, but it is accepted and established. The point is that a large number people will end up paying more under the proposed LIT system than they do under the Council Tax system, particularly working couples and families of average income.

Would you accept a rise in your tax burden for no good reason ?
88

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/09/2008 17:06:38
#81 - "Of course it's not racism, I never said it was. It's a similar mentality though"

Oh, come on - firstly, you clearly insinuated that it WAS racism, and secondly you're either saying it's racism or you're not. "Similar mentality" is simply weasel words.

Yes, the debate is highly polarised round the independence question. That is largely because the SNP have chosen to focus on that - gesture politics and picking pointless fights with Westminster for effect - rtaher than on running the Scottish economy.

I wish I could agree with you about the minority of idiots, but in my experience (and I have plenty), the standard recourse of the separatist lobby is to label anyone who dares to dissent from their separatist orthodoxy as "Unionist traitors" or "English" rather than address the actual issues with rational argument.

Their line seems to be if you don't support us then you forfeit your right to be Scottish, which is of course absurd. But they apparently don't think so. Calum10 above may be a clown but he is far from unusual.
89

Joe,

Clermiston 03/09/2008 17:10:48
Let's hope Alex calls an election when LIT is knocked-back by majority rule. Perhaps then we can see the back of these SNP fascists?