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Darling rejects Salmond's claim bank could have been saved



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Published Date: 22 September 2008
ALISTAIR Darling, the Chancellor, hit back angrily yesterday following Nationalist claims that he should have done more to save HBOS.
Alex Salmond has accused the UK government of standing "idly by" while HBOS was taken over by Lloyds TSB.

The First Minister also argued he would have pumped in billions of pounds to keep HBOS intact had he been running an independent Scotland.

Yesterday, Mr Darling retaliated, insisting that the Lloyds TSB takeover was the only realistic option for HBOS and the UK government had done the right thing in helping that deal get started.

The Chancellor said of HBOS: "Like so many other banks, it got into difficulty. This didn't happen over the last few days, this has been something which has been building up, and, by the beginning of this last week, it was quite clear there needed to be a fundamental solution. There was no alternative – it had to go in with Lloyds TSB.

"Everyone recognises that HBOS would have been in real difficulties if it had not gone in with Lloyds TSB and created a bigger bank."

Mr Darling also derided Mr Salmond's suggestion that the UK government could have put in billions to keep HBOS afloat, preventing the Lloyds takeover.

"He (Mr Salmond] is the only one in the world who thinks that. The two boards of HBOS and Lloyds TSB, themselves, at the beginning of this week, seeing the situation they were in, the HBOS board said, 'Look we need to talk to Lloyds TSB.' They decided they would do that on a commercial basis."

The Chancellor said the takeover was a "commercial decision" and the government had enabled it to go ahead by lifting competition rules for this one deal. He said: "That was infinitely better than the alternative of HBOS being left to struggle on with maybe the government having to intervene. This was the best solution and, frankly, other than Alex Salmond, I do not know anyone else in this country who honestly believes we should have left matters to proceed as they were going."

And he added: "Alex Salmond is trying to make a case that absolutely everything was fine and it was only the fault of people in London who were the cause of this problem."

Iain Gray, the new Scottish Labour leader, joined the criticism of the First Minister. He dismissed Mr Salmond's argument that an independent Scottish government would have found up to £100 billion to bail out HBOS as "ridiculous".

Mr Gray said: "This is a fantasy figure plucked out of thin air. We are talking about over two times the annual budget of the Scottish Government.

"The First Minister is either economically illiterate or he is deliberately misleading the public. It is just not realistic to say the Scottish economy could provide the level of liquidity a global player like HBOS would have needed."

And he added: "Bailout funds were available to HBOS from the Bank of England, but as the Chancellor made clear again today there was no request for a line of credit from HBOS."

Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, appealed to SNP and Labour politicians to "stop bickering".

In another development, independent MSP Margo MacDonald has written to the police, asking for an investigation into the possible spreading of misinformation about HBOS in the lead-up to the Lloyds takeover bid.

Ms MacDonald has written to Lothian and Borders Police asking the force to investigate whether competition laws were broken at that time.



The full article contains 593 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 00:11:06
Salmond is an idiot.

He is using the current crisis which affects real people, for his own personal political gain.

I think more and more people are beginning to see through him.
2

The Spook in Leith,

22/09/2008 00:18:00
Rufus T. Firefly,22/09/2008 00:11:06
Salmond is an idiot.

He is using the current crisis which affects real people, for his own personal political gain.

I think more and more people are beginning to see through him.

But then.....Commenting on a superpoll of marginal seats, carried out by YouGov for PoliticsHome and published in the Observer, which predicts “major gains” for the SNP at a Westminster election with a 14.5% swing the SNP’s Business Convener and Leader at Westminster, Angus Robertson MP, said its findings were hugely significant and underlined the popularity of the SNP Government.

So where are the "more people" that are beginning to see through him ??
3

The Spook in Leith,

22/09/2008 00:21:38
What ever the banks future is i just hope as many jobs are saved. I personally think Broon bottled it to soon when he gave the go ahead to sell HBOS but the voters will judge him on that. I cant but help thinking that anything Broon does is to undermine the resolve of the Scottish government, well so far everything has backed fired on the idiot.
4

Royster,

22/09/2008 00:26:19
Salmond is an embarrasment.
5

The Spook in Leith,

22/09/2008 00:30:12
#4

So is Gordon Brown
6

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 22/09/2008 00:40:28
Ian Grey was in something of a cooperative mood at First Ministers Questions last week, I wonder if he got his fingers rapped for that and has now saying what he has been told to say.........by his party's big boys.
7

Edward,

22/09/2008 01:08:17
#4 Royster
The difference between Alex Salmond and Alex Neil against Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown
Both Salmond and Neil are qualified economists
where as Darling is a failed Lawyer and Brown has a PhD in History
So I think it can be read that Alex Salmond and Alex Neil know a lot more that the likes of Darling and Brown, who are the real embarssments
8

Senga Jean,

22/09/2008 01:12:12
Salmond,of course, was correct. Poor Mr Gray got pelters for being so restrained at FMQ but if he had not been.....?
9

TommyKaye,

UK 22/09/2008 01:13:44
Rufus T. Firefly is an idiot

Royster is an embarrasment

10

Traquir , Alba,

22/09/2008 01:36:24
"There was no alternative – it had to go in with Lloyds TSB."

I wonder just how hard Darling bothered trying to
save one of Scotland's oldest banks ?

Looks like Alex Neil is making more effort that
Brown and Darling could ever muster.

"MSP launches bid to buy out Bank of Scotland"

"A bid to raise £6bn to save the Bank of Scotland"

"Some of the leading financial lights north of the border, such as the financier Sir Angus Grossart, the former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive Sir George Mathewson, and the former Bank of Scotland chief executive Sir Peter Burt, are to be invited to a meeting in the next few days to discuss the move."

see - tinyurl.com/3geacq

I wonder if either Brown or Darling bothered to
even discuss "alternatives" with leading Scottish
financial figures such as Sir Angus Grossart, Sir George Mathewson or Sir Peter Burt ? Don't Brown
or Darling have any confidence in the ability
of the Scottish nation to have solved this problem
ourselves - it would appear not.

Darling did manage an alternative strategy
and conjured upwards of £110 billion to shore
up a 40 year English Bank the Northern Rock,
but apparently this was not a viable alternative
for a saving an over 300 year old Scottish bank.

see - tinyurl.com/3agqqa

"This didn't happen over the last few days, this has been something which has been building up,"

So why was the "alternative" of stopping the
spivs and speculators not put into action way
in advance. As soon as Alex Salmond raised this
"alternative" action was taken an short selling
was severely restricted.

"No alternatives" - yet one more massive lie
from traitors Brown and Darling who have sold
themselves lock stock and barrel for the powers
and glory as they see them of the superiority of
this rotting Union and the cess-pit of corruption
that is the city of London.

Scotland will not tolerate this treachery.

Saor Alba
11

Royster,

22/09/2008 02:04:02
It will be interesting to see if Lloyds TSB profits from Scottish nationalism by selling Bank of Scotland to a Scottish consortium at a grossly inflated price.
12

Royster,

22/09/2008 02:05:39
#7. But if Salmond is a 'trained' economist, why didn't he warn us beforehand? Isn't that what economists are supposed to do?
13

Royster,

22/09/2008 02:05:46
#7. But if Salmond is a 'trained' economist, why didn't he warn us beforehand? Isn't that what economists are supposed to do?
14

Royster,

22/09/2008 02:06:02
#7. But if Salmond is a 'trained' economist, why didn't he warn us beforehand? Isn't that what economists are supposed to do?
15

Royster,

22/09/2008 02:06:32
#7. But if Salmond is a 'trained' economist, why didn't he warn us beforehand? Isn't that what economists are supposed to do?
16

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 22/09/2008 03:10:23
Royster

But if Royster is a trained "unionist monkey" that does tricks for nuts. Why didnt he warn us beforehand?
Isnt that what Unionist Monkeys do?. We could have brought along some monkey nuts.

That must be the dumbest post by a Unionist Troll ever Royster. When exactly did Alex Salmond or our Scottish Government have control of our economy or financial services. Certainly not in the last three hundred years.

Get a grip ya halfwit.
17

Royster,

22/09/2008 03:20:14
#17. But surely he could have warned us. He's already telling us how he would have single-handedly saved HBOS with a 100 billion sterling loan from a Scottish Central Bank.
18

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 22/09/2008 06:39:59
18

Everybody already knew the our banks and financial institutes were in trouble they still are you dumb sh*t. What he didnt know was that there was going to be a specific run on the HBOS by the London market.
The question is did the UK government know? and when they found out what did they do to run interference?
f*c all!
And he never said he was going to save HBOS with a 100 billion loan that figure was pulled out of the air by the Scotsman in yesterdays story.
The Lloyds bid was 12.2 billion why would he need anymore than that?
Cant you ever post without being an idiot?
19

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 06:46:03
Royster, what Scottish Central Bank?

This is a new one.

When did they announce we would have a Scottish Central Bank?

Was it designed by Salmond on the back of a fag packet over the weekend, whilst he was watching the golf?
20

Royster,

22/09/2008 06:49:22
#20. I know there is no Scottish central bank - that's what Salmond was claiming would haved saved HBOS in an 'independent Scotland'. Usual fantasy stuff from the Great Helmsman of course. It's just more 'mouth and short trousers' garbage from Wee Eck.

#19. But he should have known that, he's 'fully trained'. That's what you SNP supporters keep telling me.
21

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 06:51:43
If Salmond has all this money to bail out a predominantly English bank, can he use some of it to pay for the extra 1000 police officers that were promised?

Or the £2000 help for first time home buyers.

Or for reduced primary class sizes.
22

John S,

22/09/2008 06:56:26
Iain Gray: "The First Minister is either economically illiterate or he is deliberately misleading the public.
Sunday Post:However,the Downing Street source said, “Salmond is either economically illiterate or he is deliberately misleading the Scottish public.21 Sept 2008
Is Iain Gray the Downing Street source or maybe he reads the Sunday Post ?
23

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 06:57:15
Yes Royster I am with you.

Salmond will invent anything if he thinks it will strengthen his argument.

The Global Financial Markets are of no consequence in Scotland, when we have the Scottish Central Bank of Alex Salmond looking after us.
24

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 06:59:02
John S sounds like you read the Sunday Post.
25

Anonym,

22/09/2008 07:15:54
I see the quality of the debate is about up to the usual standard.
26

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 07:22:15
#26 Indeed Anonym, and you have greatly added to it with your well informed, well thought out and extremely witty post.
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/09/2008 07:37:15
If Alex is so clever why did he not warn us of this impending crisis BEFORE the HBOS train hit the buffers?

Any fool can be wise AFTER the event.

Eck is just a chancer, really.
28

LEAL,

22/09/2008 07:45:58
28 rules
Because Salmond wasnt privvy to the information.The FSA and Westminster had access to the facts at the time and did nothing.Because they dont have Scotlands interests at heart.
29

Royster,

22/09/2008 07:54:31
#29. He could have picked up the phone. After all, Wee Eck does all the things people in Westminster do like trying to set up electriity agreements with Norway and being chummy with Iranian consulate officials. And let's not forget... he's a 'trained economist'.
30

LEAL,

22/09/2008 08:08:26
Why wont Brown allow Glenrothes representation?
31

SouthernSkye,

22/09/2008 08:10:34
...."was no alternative – it had to go in with Lloyds TSB".....

Why? Why was there no alternative? Why was it not floated around to get the best deal possible for all concerned?


"Everyone recognises that HBOS would have been in real difficulties if it had not gone in with Lloyds TSB and created a bigger bank."
Do they? There seems to be plenty of stories in the financial/business press to the contrary!


"This didn't happen over the last few days, this has been something which has been building up..."
Certainly is, especially considering the fact that HBOS were already considering selling-out to Lloyds TSB for several weeks before 'they were hit by le Crunch'. Anyone else find it odd that this was so?
Who was short selling HBOS? Any HBOS subsidiaries I wonder?

"Bailout funds were available to HBOS from the Bank of England, but as the Chancellor made clear again today there was no request for a line of credit from HBOS."
So, HBOS did not WANT to remain independent? They were looking to be taken over, to sell-out? There are funds available from the European central bank also available to shore-up ailing financial bodies during the current climate.
Why did the top people at HBOS NOT try to save it?

C'mon, let's here from those involved!
32

Rufus T. Firefly,

22/09/2008 08:10:38
Royster, maybe Salmond was too busy writing letters to Robert Mugabe telling him that Scotland is a nuclear free zone (which it obviously isn't), that he missed the HBOS crisis until it was too late.
33

SouthernSkye,

22/09/2008 08:14:14
In fact there is a contradiction by Mr Darling in this piece. I refer to:
"There was no alternative – it had to go in with Lloyds TSB"
and
"Bailout funds were available to HBOS from the Bank of England, but as the Chancellor made clear again today there was no request for a line of credit from HBOS."

So there WAS an alternative available from within UK! Without even needing to approach the EU central bank.

Pass the incense, there's an awful stink here.
34

LEAL,

22/09/2008 08:15:37
The truth about this whole sorry affair is yet to come out.What we do know is that the FSA and the chancellor are in it up to their necks.
35

danielrober,

22/09/2008 08:16:56
Very sensible Darling but Alec.S is like the school yard fat kid. He shouts at everyone else to distract his own lack of exercise. A bit sad really. Still keep the Negative-Positive debate moving before people realise Alec.S never answers questions.

Its below his position as First Minister, Westminster Member of Parliament and Galactic Hero.

Alec Salmond to the RESCUEeeeeeee.
36

Mike Partick,

22/09/2008 08:49:35
Rufus et al

Criticsing Alex Salmond when he is looking to preserve Scottish jobs seesm pretty rich given that your "blessed" labour party and its leaders have fiddled while the economy collapses - a wonderful (not) attempt to re-write recent history.
37

inkster,

22/09/2008 08:49:47
The Executive board of HBOS

Andy Hornby - Group Chief Executive
Jo Dawson - Chief Executive, Retail Distribution, Insurance & Investment
Colin Matthew - Chief Executive, International and Treasury & Asset Management
Peter Cummings - Chief Executive, Corporate
Harry Baines - Company Secretary & Group Counsel
Dan Watkins - Chief Executive, Retail Products
Philip Gore-Randall – Chief Operating Officer
Peter Hickman – Group Risk Director
Mike Ellis - Group Finance Director (designate)

Why did they not apply for the Bank of England's facility?

What a horror story the answer to that might be.
38

The Tin Man,

22/09/2008 08:51:09
A bank merges due to poor financial decisions and the Edinburgh gov says they would have bailed them out with our taxes, in an imaginary future.

Aberdeen's main swimming pool and ice-close due to poor financial decisions and the Edinburgh gov says they will not give a bail-out, in reality.
39

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 08:52:43
While Halifax "Haliban" management laid seeds of HBOS decline, G Brown and A Darling did nothing to introduce tighter regulations on crazy economic models or ban irresponsible Short Selling despite two previous attempts to destabalise HBOS not to mention Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley.

It is the UK government to blame as only they knew all the facts, not Alex Salmond who was kept in the dark by the authorities, and in any event no politician would have risked a run on the Bank by publically saying a Bank was in trouble.
40

JayJay,

Right here 22/09/2008 09:13:21
For all Darling's protestations, he surely must know that the real cause of this crisis - the interbank lending rate - remains worryingly high. Any proposals to do something about that then Chancellor?
A whole heap of bunkum has been spoken about who did what, and who knew what, but the simple reality is that HBoS was targeted, sliced and diced and, given the utterly unrestrained behaviour of the city, this outcome could have happened to any bank.
Much has yet to be revealed. Like how did the BBC's business editor manage to break this scoop without insider help? And will he be prosecuted? Or who were the two short sellers who made £110m in 2 minutes?
What a world we live in. Billions available to prop up an entirely flawed system, bonuses all round and the poor taxpayer is about to take a very sore one in the ging-gangs.
Brown and Darling make Laurel and Hardy look capable.
41

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:28:16
#Royster

Salmond did apparently warn Brown in advance as he was lobbying Brown to take action against short selling in advance. Brown ignored his advice and only acted to ban short selling temporarily after the US did after the collapse of HBOS.

So the lesson here was Salmond was correct and Brown and Darling got it massively wrong.

42

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:30:33
Interestingly Browns interviews at the weekend admitted the poor regulatory framework failed the needs to the financial world we live in. He set up the uks regulatory framework and as such is responsible.

Only Salmond and Cable seem to have any knowledge of the financial problems we face. Brown and Darling seem clueless.
43

BIG EYE,

Paisley 22/09/2008 09:33:05
If I was a Unionist and Labour supporter I would be very worried about what might appear about this during the next month or two.

If I know Alex Salmond he will be using his many contacts in the banking and investment world to dig out EXACTLY what went on here. He is not the type to hang his shoulders and give up.

With a crucial by election pending in Glenrothes just imagine the reaction if the smoking gun is found!

Believe me there are a lot of people involved in this investigation.
44

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:37:40
Wathcing the interviews on politics now of Salmond, Darling, a representative of Aberdeen Asset mgt and Burt the ex chairman of Bank of Scotland. It showed how far Darling was out his dept. Both Burt and the AA Mgt rep were talking the same language as Salmond and while all have a slightly different take they seemed to back Salmonds perspective in most ways. (they only doubted a scottish by out of the bank)

Whereas Darling lacked any conviction and could not justify in any meaningful way his actions. Unbelievably he had to start ranting about LIT as if that had anything to do with it. Atleast Browns seemed to admit labour had failed but bizzarrely thought that a qualification for them to see out the financial crisis.
45

Stop buy Scotsman,

22/09/2008 09:38:05
It look as if Royster & Rufus T. Firefly who made lot of comments at start of this page show no understanding seriousness consequence of the take over.

Both of them seem to have the pleasure by mocking Alex Salmond and his SNP Government who is trying to save jobs for the people.. I think we are talking about thousands of jobs are at risk. You two guy are sad and pathetic and they may not be effect by this situation. Your Gordon and Alistair took no action to support and help the people in SCOTLAND. All they do was give their approval to a very small number of people who will make huge profit through shame and dishonest practice such as short selling and it legally by WESTMINISTER.
46

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:40:52
#JayJay

The big question that Burt the ex head of Bank of Scotland raised was why did Brown authorise the 100billion liquidity to be pumped into the market the day after the crash of HBOS and not before.

With the new injected liquidity bank shares have dramatically risen. Burt seemed very accusing of Browns role.

Darling seemed to have lost the plot when he said the merger was just for commercial reasons when everyone knows it is a bail out of HBOS.
47

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:43:20
#40 The Tin Man

Do you really understand the seriousness to the Scottish economy of what has just happened?
48

Rasco,

Inverness 22/09/2008 09:44:48
What is the story about the £190 Million speculators are said to have made out of this,any truth in it.
49

Alan B,

22/09/2008 09:50:24
Part of the underlying problem from political terms is the British government is possibly doing what is best for Britain. While the Scottish government are trying to do the best for Scotland. The problem is the Scottish and British interests are not the same.

From a Scottish perspective it about saving a bank that is fundamental to the underlying health of the Scottish economy. It is important for Scotland to have some major companies with headquarters in Scotland.

However from a British perspective it is about how to prevent another Northern Rock and the mess the government made of that situation. To a degree labour are not even pushing a British perspective but more an a** covering exercise of their own incompetence. As such a quick and decisive decision is better that a good decision that could have political problems for them.
50

Nevsky,

Moscow 22/09/2008 09:56:31
So one one side we have the Bank of England, the former Chief of the Bank of England as well as Alex Salmond saying that in extending credit the bank could have been saved.

Then Darling saying NO.

Alan#

The point was made yesterday that Brown and Darling took the decision so as to avoid the hash they made of Northern Rock. A knee jerk reaction, ill thought out days before the Labour conference to show that they are decisice and in control.

Unfortunatly they have made a big mistake, sold a bank on the cheap that could have been saved and lost the country thousands of jobs.
51

John S,

22/09/2008 09:57:06
#50 Rasco:Speculators made £190 million by trading HBOS shares shortly before news of the bank’s rescue by Lloyds TSB was announced, it has emerged.
Telegraph 21/09/2008 http://tinyurl.com/3ehgn8
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 22/09/2008 10:01:56
This whole affair looks increasingly like the most expensive and failed PR job ever attempted by a British politician.
53

John S,

22/09/2008 10:02:50
Analysts believe a merger of Halifax and Lloyds TSB could result in the loss of as many as 40,000 jobs from the 135,000 combined workforce.
The HBOS group has about 17,000 staff in Scotland, while Lloyds TSB has more than 7,000 employees.
54

inkster,

22/09/2008 10:05:45
And he added: "Bailout funds were available to HBOS from the Bank of England, but as the Chancellor made clear again today there was no request for a line of credit from HBOS."

Unless Iain Gray is making this up HBOS deliberately took a dive.

Why?

55

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:05:46
#52 Nevsky

Agree.

56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 22/09/2008 10:06:28
37

For once I agree there is nothing here just troll feed with the usual trolls or troll gobbling it all up and spewing it all out again.
Its just no worth any more effort.
57

j fortitude ,

22/09/2008 10:08:34
Salmond is simply trying to inject himself into the biggest news story of the moment.

Couple of questions - since when would there be a Scottish Central Bank in the SNP's vision for the future. I thought we were to be pegged to sterling until we took on the Euro. THrerefore it would be the European Central bank calling the shots - who are less willing than the BoE to intervene.

Whilst is respect Salmonds financial know how i don't think that his supporters here who try to trump his background as an economist are really helping matters. Was it not economists who came up with teh derivatives and other financial models (and received a international prizes for them)? Being an economist does not make you a good public leader (nor does being a lawyer or a jurnolist for that matter).

There are so many hypotheticals in Salmonds's 'How i would have saved the bank if i was in charge' story.
HBOS would be headquartered here
England would not respond to lower corporation tax in Scotland
£100 billion from Government would stabilise the market (look at the ongoing Freddie Mac mess in the states)
58

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:17:07
#j fortitude

It is not about a Scottish Central Bank. Also most people would expect the head of the Scottish government to try to look out for Scotland interests. Few can seriously claim Scotland interests have been protected here.

Firstly Brown abolished and put a new regulatory framework in place a few yrs with Northern rock and now HBOS we have seen the failures of banks for the first time in ages. A labour mp the other day was trying to blame the tory deregualutions in the mid 80s. Labour have been in power for a decade.

The regulatory framework should ensure that banks are stable. HBOS was too reliant on the credit markets for loans to fund it mortgage lending rather than deposits.

Secondly with the credit markets drying up the government could and should have stepped in decisively make liquidity available. ie lend money to these banks that they cannot otherwise borrow as inter bank lending has dried up.

Why did Brown wait till the failure of HBOS before pumping 100 billion of liquidity into the markets.

And finally Salmond warned Brown in advance about a temporary messure necessary the regulate short selling. Brown ignored that advise until the failure of HBOS and only acting to ban short selling after its collapse.

At nearly every point in the curve Brown and Darling are behind the curve. Not surprising as only Salmond (and Cable) of the political leaders is experienced in this area.
59

I Give Up,

22/09/2008 10:21:29
Pump in Billions! Anyone can play 'Fantasy Bank Rescue' Eck obviously got carried away or is just trying to score cheap political points as usual.
60

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:21:31
#j fortitude

"England would not respond to lower corporation tax in Scotland"

England may. However Ireland has had a corporation tax of 12.5% while the UK has continued with 30% (only reduced to 28% this yr) and benefited greatly from it helping pushing it to tremendous rates of economic growth while Scotland has trailed both the UK and the group of small european countries known as the arc of prosperity (which includes ireland).
61

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:22:46
#I Give Up

Have you not noticed Brown has just pumped in 100 billion worth of liquidity to the markets the day after the collapse. Don't let the fact get in the way of your rant however.
62

The Tin Man,

22/09/2008 10:26:02
#60 AlanB

How much government borrowing would you like to have underwritten with our taxes in order to underwrite HBoS's borrowing, in order to stop a merger, out of interest?
63

j fortitude ,

22/09/2008 10:27:15
Salmond specifically said that he would have used a Scottish central bank to extend the £100 billion to cover the dodgy mortgages - was he lying or just riffing.

Criticise the actions of the UK Gov by all means but to suggest that vote SNP, vote Independence and he could have saved HBOS smacks of spin and posturing in my honest opinion.

64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 10:28:26
3 AlanB
The money pumped into the markets on Thursday was part a coordinated worldwide move with the Fed, the ECB, Bank of Japan, Bank of Canada and the Swiss Central Bank. It is hardly fair to blame the timing on Brown.
Anyway the Bank of England had already pumped some billions into the markets on Monday doing what you suggest should have been done.
65

Publius,

London 22/09/2008 10:33:28
#10 Traquir

You quote:
"MSP launches bid to buy out Bank of Scotland". "A bid to raise £6bn to save the Bank of Scotland". "Some of the leading financial lights north of the border, such as the financier Sir Angus Grossart, the former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive Sir George Mathewson, and the former Bank of Scotland chief executive Sir Peter Burt, are to be invited to a meeting in the next few days to discuss the move."

Grossart and the rest shut put up or shut up.
66

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 22/09/2008 10:35:40
Come on you Unionistas, explain why we are all going to pay 5p extra tax thanks to Brown and the pathetic excuse for a man Darling.

I suppose its because he did a Westmonster, and lied his guts out, but why did the Scottish People in his area Vote for this tube. Darling could have grown a spine and rescued some sort of principal.He is hiding under Browns shadow, afraid to stand up and tell him to resign.

Alistair Darling is worse than Brown, because he knows better. At least Brown is suffering from some form of Mental Illness. Autistic would be a pretty good guess. He doesnt see anything around him and his world.

No offence intended to the unfortunate people who suffer this terrible condition.
67

John S,

22/09/2008 10:39:12
HBOS and Lloyds TSB - The combination will have a 35 per cent share in current accounts, a 29 per cent share in mortgages and a quarter of the market in both savings and personal loans.Sept 18 2008
68

tommy M,

22/09/2008 10:39:18
brown and his evil little sidekick darling will stop at nothing in their attempts to ruin Scotland and damage the Scottish psyche in their attempts to preserve the union. They do not like it when the natives get restless. Watch them continue to do everything they can to undermine Salmond and destroy the Scottish economy.

Their treachery will not be tolerated.

We will not be fooled again.

It's time.

69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 10:40:00
60 Alan B
I don't think it is fair to state, as you have done, that Brwon/Darling got it all wrong and Salmond has got it all right.
Many people have pointed out glaring disrepancies and contradictions in Salmond's rhetoric. The latest one is that his own adviser, George Matthewson, is involved in short selling. By his own admission, Alex Salmond is using a "spiv" to help determine SNP economic policy.
70

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:43:36
#Ugly George

It was Burt the ex head of BOS that was blaming Brown and Darling for waiting until after the crash of the bank.

Was Burt wrong? Could Brown not have announced something before hand. Remember Brown would have known this was on the cards all week.

Listening to the commetatory about this over the weekend particualary Burt and also other non politicians, it appears to me HBOS was a well capitalised bank (FSA even said so) but was in problems due to the complete dry up of inter bank lending. ie it was depend on the credit market to fund it mortages.

As such would it not be appropriate to lend at commercial rates by the BOE to HBOS. I am not talking about public spending but commercial loans replacing the lack of commercial lending in the credit markets.

71

The Tin Man,

22/09/2008 10:46:19
#72 AlanB

HBoS was offered credit by the Bank of England, and turned it down. Please explain.
72

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 10:47:08
72 Alan B
The BoE said that funds were available last Monday for loans to financial institutions but were not asked for.
73

The Tin Man,

22/09/2008 10:48:55
If people want to get patriotic about banks, then they can put all their loans and savings into the RBS.
74

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:50:21
#Ugly George

I am not saying Salmond has got it all right. What i am saying is listening to the "experts" ie Burt, the guy for Aberdeen Asset mgt etc it appears Salmond is more in tune with what could or should have been done.

Did you here Darlings interview. He was dreadful. It ended with a rant about LIT. He had completely lost it.

Salmond apparently according to Andrew Neil (who is an avowed unionist and as you will know dislikes the snp) was telling Brown to do something about short selling before the HBOS issue. Neil who always scathing about Salmond was singing his praises (much to the annoyance of Cable who has people have been saying is the only major policitical figure with a clue)

Brown did not do anything about short selling until after the collapse. Why? You either think short selling was detrimnetal and do something about it or not. Brown did nothing until too late then banned it why?

Brown is responsible for the new uk regulatory framework which even he said failed in the new global world of finance as he put it. So has to take some of the blame. Yes it easy for the opposition when the government make a mess but lets not pretend the government did not make a mess of it.

75

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 10:52:26
72 AlanB
PS If Burt is criticising Brown/Darling for the timing of the latest (as I said there had already been one) cash injection, he also has to blame the US, ECB, and the Canadian, Japanese, and Swiss govts.
As I said this was part of a coordinated strategy. No single country wanted to act alone at this stage as they feared that their own limited injection of cash might not do the trick and be washed away in more market turmoil.
Just because Burt is a former executive of HBOS doesn't necessarily mean he is right.
76

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:53:04
#Ugly George , The Tin Man

Explain why Burt was blaming Brown for not announcing the 100 billion beforehand, an announcement that caused share prices to rebound massively, and would have undermined the short selling.
77

Alan B,

22/09/2008 10:56:36
#Ugly George

"Just because Burt is a former executive of HBOS doesn't necessarily mean he is right."

Correct. But lets face it, it is better to listen to experts in this field to try to make an opinion than politicians. By listening to different financial experts we can try to judge how well our political leaders have done.

When Salmond talked about regualting short selling at first I was sceptical. Then the US and UK did so. That suggests he knows what he is talking about.
78

Ugly George,

edinburgh 22/09/2008 10:59:46
76 AlanB
We have had the discussion about short selling before -it is regarded as a legitimate investment practice which is essential to any fund management industry - including Scotland's. Banning it (if the ban is maintained) will have a detrimental effect on the industry. Calling for a ban is an easy option for an opposition policy - being in government is more tricky.

What is Salmond's position on short selling now? Does he want the ban maintained? If so he is saying that he wishes to put a severe hurdle in the way of Scotland's fund management industry - hardly looking out for Scotland's interests as he claims. What is the position of his adviser George Matthewson on this issue considering he is involved in short selling himself?
79

vimto,

22/09/2008 10:59:49
Salmond is using the people of Scotland to further his racist ideology,thankfully the Scottish people are waking up to this.
80

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:00:18
#Ugly George

"The BoE said that funds were available last Monday for loans to financial institutions but were not asked for."

That is an interesting question. I heard that myself at the weekend. Unfortunately we have not heard any explanation. The head of HBOS apparently refused to be interviewed.

81

Ugly George,

edinburgh 22/09/2008 11:03:13
78 Alan B
It was not the pumping in of £100bn by the UK that sent share prices rising. If you look at the analysis in all ther media it states that this was caused by the US govt. deciding to buy up all US bad debt.
82

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:09:17
#Ugly George

I am not saying short selling is not legitimate practise. What i said was Salmond was apparently calling for action to be taken regarding the practise,(not sure if he wanted a ban or just regulation), Brown then only acted after the failure of HBOS after the US implemented a ban till January.

"What is Salmond's position on short selling now? Does he want the ban maintained?"
No idea. Not sure if he was calling for regulation rather than banning.

As I say i was actually sceptical when Salmond first came out with comments round short selling until the US did take decisive action round the practise.

Part of the problem with short selling is that the practise is something associated with people spreading false rumours and the US have started legal procedings as they thing some of the short selling was illegal.

Personally i do not know the advantages of the practice to really have a personal view about how it should be regulated. As you say you have to be very careful not to damage the financial industry.
83

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 22/09/2008 11:11:59
Message to the Blessed Alex - when you are in a hole, stop digging.
84

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:12:37
#83 Ugly George

The financial commentary i have heard put the rises down to the decive action. The US buying dodgy credit is one thing. The pumping in of liquidity another and also the banning of short selling till January. It is a mixture of things.

85

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:13:59
#W U Merchant

The message to Alex should be when you have dug enough of a hole for Brown. Bury him.
86

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:18:22
#Ugly George

You obviously have a bit of a clue round the financial sector.

Do you agree with people like Burt, the guy from Aberdeen Asset mgt, and the FSA that HBOS was a well capitalised bank with some even saying it had a strong balance sheet that llyods? Was it not just the drying up of interest banks lending (credit markets) that caused HBOS problems? ie HBOS has funded its mortages by borrowing on the wholesale market.

87

inkster,

22/09/2008 11:21:58
How could HBOS turn down a facility from the Bank of England when their inter bank credit had dried up - that would be criminal negligence and fraud.

88

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/09/2008 11:24:39
84 Alan B
Few people believe now that the takeover of HBOS was an unjustified takeover on the cheap forced by short selling. If we are to believe thai then we have to believe that the negotiations on a £12bn deal and regulatory waiver could be set up and concluded in a few hours - did they all sort it out in the pub on Tuesday night while watching the football.

Also, now that short selling is not in place and the markets have stabilised through govt's actions, if this was such an enforced, unjustified deal, then surely the major shareholdres will reject it. This is where Alex Salmond's analysis does not make sense. The timing of the cash injection and the ban on short selling were measures to stabilise markets and they are not now an issue. The markets have been stabilised so why don't the shareholders reject the deal and allow HBOS to carry on as it was?
89

John S,

22/09/2008 11:24:46
Mr Darling also derided Mr Salmond's suggestion that the UK .........He (Mr Salmond] is the only one in the world who thinks that.
Ian Gordon, BNP Exane analyst, said: “We believe the market has assigned an unduly pessimistic assessment of HBOS’s funding position and therefore as the position is clarified, possibly aided by further evidence of support from the Bank of England, the HBOS share price should recover.”September 16 2008
The Bank of England said it would allow banks an extra three months to swap risky assets for government paper, extending a scheme that was set to close next month because of the latest turmoil in financial markets.Sep 17 2008
90

Alan B,

22/09/2008 11:27:01
#inkster

It is an interesting question that need answered. It helped them merge with the government waving competition rules for one thing. The head of HBOS walked off with 2million pounds pay off.

It also depends on the terms of BOE were offering, whether it was enough, whether going to BOE for a bail out would undermine the bank on the financial markets.

Why also have a share issue of 4billion a month or 2 ago nothing has changed. Why not the 12 billion RBS did?

There really needs to be some serious questions. Unfortunately the government is so tied in with the failures that it is not in a position to really ensure we can openly address the issues.
91

Darien,

Panama 22/09/2008 11:27:59
The key point here is that an independent Scotland, like any other sovereign nation, would have had the power to intervene in some shape or form. Recent events demonstrate that t