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Plot to oust Brown risks Glenrothes by-election disaster, angry MPs warn



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Sacked Labour whip Siobhan McDonagh wants an open discussion of Gordon Brown's leadership
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Published Date: 15 September 2008
LABOUR MPs plotting against the Prime Minister risk wrecking the party's chances of avoiding defeat in the crucial Glenrothes by-election, it was claimed last night.
The warning came as a number of Scottish MPs told The Scotsman of their anger at the latest attacks on Gordon Brown and their fear at the harm it was doing to the party.

It came after Mr Brown sacked junior whip Siobhain McDonagh for requesting leadership ballot papers and as other minor Blairites went public with calls for the Prime Minister to face a challenge.

Jim Devine, the MP for Livingston, said a recent opinion poll showed 79 per cent of respondents were turned off Labour because the party was divided.

He said this had cast a shadow over the election of a new leader in Scotland, Iain Gray, and would make it more difficult to get activists to canvass during the by-election. He said: "We launched a new leader yesterday. We have the Glenrothes by-election. This is unacceptable behaviour. I think they have been self-centred and very selfish."

Many MPs spoken to yesterday by The Scotsman believed that more critics of Mr Brown were likely to emerge as part of an orchestrated campaign. "Siobhain McDonagh doesn't go to the toilet without asking somebody," Mr Devine said.

But they believed that Mr Brown would survive – saying that the time for a leadership challenge had been a year ago when Mr Brown was elected unopposed.

Jim Hood, MP for Lanark and Hamilton East, said he was sure the outbursts against Mr Brown were being orchestrated. "The only result of continuing with this is going to be a disaster for the party and for the government."

Another MP normally critical of the government said backbenchers and activists were "looking on in horror" at what she saw was the continuation of the Blair vs Brown "soap opera".

Mark Lazarowicz, MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, said: "There is nothing to be gained by this continued debate about leadership. I don't think there is going to be a challenge and I don't think there should."

MP SACKED AS BROWN ENVOY

A LABOUR MP has lost his post as Gordon Brown's representative after calling for a challenge to his leadership, it was confirmed today.

Barry Gardiner was axed as the Prime Minister's special envoy on forestry after joining other backbenchers in asking for nomination papers to trigger a leadership contest to be sent to MPs ahead of next week's party conference.

Mr Brown's spokesman told reporters that the Brent North MP had been removed from his post "by mutual consent" over the weekend.

Glenrothes, centre of the political universe

THERE was a joke – though not a very funny one – circulating in Holyrood on Friday that perhaps the Scottish Parliament should officially relocate to Glenrothes this week.

Apart from hill farming and tourism, the only real highlight will be to see whether new Labour leader Iain Gray can survive First Minister's Questions on Thursday without being mangled by Alex Salmond.

The reason why business should be relocated to Glenrothes may have something to do with the fact that there is a good chance many MPs will be doing "constituency work" there – ie, campaigning for the as-yet-uncalled Glenrothes by-election.

Nationalist MSP Sandra White was accused of taking her duty to constituents a little too far last Wednesday when she was spotted in Methil (which is part of the Glenrothes constituency) handing out leaflets – about 60 miles from her own constituents in Glasgow.

While there, she missed a riveting announcement on the Scottish Futures Trust by John Swinney, but she did make it back to Edinburgh in time for the real business of the day – to join friends at the Canon's Gait pub to watch the Scotland game.

Tavish Scott, the Liberal Democrat leader has already been out canvassing in Glenrothes too, and more will doubtless make the trip this week.

And even those in Holyrood had Glenrothes in mind, as was witnessed in a "passionate outburst" by Labour's MSP, Helen Eadie, directed at Nicola Sturgeon, in the C diff debate.

"The constituents whom I represent in Cardenden form part of the Glenrothes constituency," she shouted. "Unless you give us an absolute and categorical assurance that you will go ahead with a public inquiry, I will print every word that you have said on the leaflets that I will put out in the Cardenden and Kinglassie part of my constituency, to say that you are not taking the case seriously."

"Bring it on," was Ms Sturgeon's comment – for which she appeared to be speaking for everybody.

The full article contains 783 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

15/09/2008 00:13:28
I'm not surprised.
2

Col. Blimp­IV*,

15/09/2008 00:18:52
Ostriches voting for...more sand?
3

Diomedes Kane,

Glasgow 15/09/2008 00:25:48
The only thing the corrupt mediocrities that Labour puts up for election in Scotland are worried about is that they are going to lose their publically funded jobs. They don't the proverbial about anything else. You know the old song about Scottish Labour MPs, don't you?

Iain Grey mentioned recetnly that Labour in Scotland have to learn the lesson of Glasgow East ... Aye, you do!

The lesson is this. You have been found out. You and your fellow non-entities have used and abused Scotland for fifty years as a job creation scheme for corrupt mediocrities capable of little other than toeing the unionist line. You have been found out - now move over. Hasta la victoria siempre, agus Alba gu brath!
4

Boy Wonder,

15/09/2008 00:33:49
Doesn't matter who's in charge. The water went out with Wendy!!
5

Brian S,

London 15/09/2008 00:36:56
Gotta love The Independent : "Iain Grey: What Scotland needs is a first minister with passion" "Iain Grey is MSP for East Lothian and the new leader of the Scottish Labour Party" Can't even spell his name right. Oh Labour is making such an impact.
6

Col. Blimp­IV*,

15/09/2008 00:42:32
#3 Diomedes Kane,


Is this the one you mean?

The Scottish MP

* (Jim MacLean)

Chorus:
I'm off to London in the morn, in the morn
In Westminster I will be
And I'll leave behind my brains and mind
And try for am M.B.E.

Oh I am a Scottish M.P.
From a city grey and black
And I'll shut my mouth when I'm in the south
Just in case they send me back
Now some folk work for Labour
And some for the Tory class
But I work like hell for me mysel'
And the rest can kiss my - kilt

Oh Scotland, dearest Scotland
You have given me your trust
If I make the grade to the Board of Trade
Just guess who'll I trade first
I'll trade the Lowlands for a peerage
Give me an earldom for the Isles
And the whole damn lot could be easily bought
With one of Lizzie's smiles

Oh I am a Scots Home Ruler
At my English Queen's command
For my real birthright is to be a knight
And the rest can be republican
So come Grimond, Home and Ramsay
Our Scottish Englishmen
Nationality for a Scots M.P.
Means tea at Number Ten

(as sung by Nigel Denver)

Tune: Off to Dublin in the Green
7

Diomedes Kane,

Glasgow 15/09/2008 01:00:31
00:42:32

Yes, that is the song I mean. I think it bears frequent repetition.
8

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 15/09/2008 01:07:48
Don't the labour party realise Brown is the reason they WILL lose Glenrothes ?
9

TommyKaye,

UK 15/09/2008 01:16:13
Why not have the election on Britishness Day that would be nice wouldn't it we could all put out bunting and have cream cakes and tea and watch the spifires fly past.

Or maybe not.

When I was growing up many years ago the Scotsman was a really serious paper with serious opinions and professional journalists.

Now it is a Petty, Pathetic,PROVINCIAL and seriously prejudiced Paper.
10

Richard Lionheart,

15/09/2008 01:24:01
Labour is already making excuses for defeat in Glenrothes.

Electorate of Glenrothes, Your country needs YOU to vote SNP.
11

Brian Hill,

15/09/2008 01:36:36
The UK Labour MPs have already written Glenrothes off. They are now looking at the big picture, i.e. trying to stave off defeat for the party at the next UK elections and of course, as #3 Diomedes says, trying to save their own jobs.

This latest move to oust Brown will demoralise the few foot soldiers Labour has in Glenrothes, not to mention their core vote, but it is designed for maximum impact during the Labour conference in a couple of weeks.

It is also going to make Iain Gray's job more difficult too, but as I said, in the Big Picture it is seen to make sense.
12

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/09/2008 01:38:54
Get Labour tae *uck!
13

jimboo,

glenrothes constituencey 15/09/2008 01:48:00
12# along with the SNP, there all Thatchers children.
14

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/09/2008 01:51:25
And anybody at #13 ! thety are in fer a spell o bad luck !
15

jimboo,

glenrothes constituencey 15/09/2008 01:51:30
If its a choice between Browns Pie in the Sky and Ecks Scotch pie in the Sky why bother voting. GO MO SSP
16

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/09/2008 01:55:40
Check oot this site - Scotsman ? nah sussex man !

http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/
17

Castaway,

15/09/2008 02:43:03
Tick-Tock,Tick-Tock:count down to 3 June 2010 - 627 days or 1 year, 8 months, 20 days.The next general election must be held on or before 3 June 2010.
18

donald,

glasgow 15/09/2008 04:44:39
Jimmy the Hood? Is that the Thames Representative for dumping Thames raw sewage in Lanarkshire on a retainer of £8,000 a year? Dumping on Scotland is cheap for Labour Onionists.
19

Wee Shuggy,

Porirua 15/09/2008 05:31:51
#6 Col. Blimp1V
Thanks for that, I had the words for this song about 40years ago. I think it was sung by ? Campbell, I forget his Christian name. There were a lot of other songs on the record too like 'NAB for royalty' and Maggie's waddin'. Wish I could find the songs again
20

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 15/09/2008 06:32:55
Castaway wrote:-
"Tick-Tock,Tick-Tock:count down to 3 June 2010 - 627 days or 1 year, 8 months, 20 days.The next general election must be held on or before 3 June 2010."

This slow lingering death is painful to watch.
21

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/09/2008 06:47:47
"Jim Devine, the MP for Livingston, said a recent opinion poll showed 79 per cent of respondents were turned off Labour because the party was divided."

Eh no Jim I think you will find they are mostly turned off by Labours right wing Thatcherite policies and the fact that they are now the property of big business interests and dont give a rats a*se for their constituents.
But never let the truth get in the way of your political career.
22

Jimmy Le Pie,

15/09/2008 07:01:11
Glenrothes was always going to be a disaster for New Labour Sleaze.

Everything they touch turns into a disaster.

Just think back to income tax announcements.
Just think back to road tax announcements.
Just think back to last weeks fuel saving fiasco.
Just think back to them electing Gray and that other nonentity.

When they realise that the electorate are fed up at being LIED to by a bunch of self serving clowns, it will be too late.
Still they have their armour plated pensions and directorships from their pals in the city, to fall back on

23

Vote UKIP,

15/09/2008 07:18:27
I think Labour could be pushed behind UKIP!
24

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/09/2008 07:25:20
23

And Lord Sutch's raving loonies would give both of them a run for their money.
25

BIG EYE,

Paisley 15/09/2008 07:25:32
The "rebels" just don't get it do they?

If they would only get out the way the successful team that gave us Crewe and Nantwich and the even more spectacular Glasgow East could get on with their job!
26

ennerdale27,

sale cheshire 15/09/2008 07:38:05
This is not the time to change horses.
The Uk banking system is intact and will survive - look across the Atlanticat the chaos there.
Brown deserves credit keeping interest rates relatively high thus discouraging unamanageable levels of debt and in turn the banking collaspe we see in the USA. THe overwhelming majority of people will keep their homes and their jobs - a relatively small willnot be so fortunate and that is very sad.
However in the UK the year remains 2008 - in the USA - its 1929.
Hold on Mr. Brown - as the poem has it -"if you can keep you head" - you go down in history as one of the greats.
27

Rickie,

Limbo 15/09/2008 07:48:02
"Plot to oust Brown risks Glenrothes by-election disaster, angry MPs warn"

Same question for a while now - when is it?

The delay is showing the people of Glenrothes and Levenmouth (that's the other bit in it) total contempt.

Then again that's all they have shown it for the last 11 years anyway...
28

Jimmy Le Pie,

15/09/2008 07:58:33
#26 ennerdale27,

Aye Comrade Broon will go down in history, but as the most inept PM in living memory.

Remember his lies about a referendum.
Remember his gold sale.
Remember his 10p tax fiasco.
Remember his part in Iraq and WMD.
Remember last weeks heating fiasco.


Aye he'll never be forgotten.
He will always be remembered as the man who destroyed New Labour Sleaze and led the country to bankruptcy.

And for that I'll always be grateful.
29

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 15/09/2008 08:02:45
Classic example of too many words in the headline. Miss out the first 3 words and you get the true story, which isn't printed here.
I think this is NotLabour putting a negative spin on the Glenrothes result, before they even announce the date (or did I miss it). In this way, when they lose, they have a ready-made excuse... it was the plotters wot dun it - and they've told us so too!
30

LEAL,

15/09/2008 08:03:36
8 the figures

The labour party is why they will lose Glenrothes.
31

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 15/09/2008 08:06:19
Glenrothes will vote AGAINST Brown, but NOT for SNP, even tho' SNP will get up to 20% of the voters' support.

It's time SS Labour abandoned its over-promoted Captain.
32

chicane,

15/09/2008 08:15:03
#26 Brown handed over responsibility to the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee. It's something he isn't responsible for and thats why it hasn't been scrwewd up as much as everything else.
33

danielrober,

15/09/2008 08:17:59
This is not about the UK economy or the Labour party this is about some MP's who would seem to have done little in 10 years. A few have woken up and realised that people did not vote for them but voted for Blair.

Well they have had 10 years of an MP's income, expenses and benefits, so my heart does not go out to them. Burning down part f the UK economy in a fit of depression is a serious problem. One that i should imagine turnd their voters off even more.

That's democracy renewl and regeneration.
34

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 15/09/2008 08:31:03
Is post #26 praising Brown being ironic?

"Brown deserves credit keeping interest rates relatively high thus discouraging unamanageable levels of debt.." LOL irony or ignorance?

1. Brown as chancellor was repeatedly warned about the incredibly high levels of consumer debt (much higher than Europe) the UK was amassing. He did nothing because such spending gave an artificial boom.

2. In 1997 Brown as chancellor lied to the Commons (& the country) in a speech in the House where he promised he would keep house prices low. Instead they exploded.

3. The OECD a couple of weeks ago put the UK at the BOTTOM of the G7, and the only major economy to fall into recession this year.

4. Before the present credit crunch I remember reading two independent financial reports that placed the UK as the sick man of Europe. The free-market think tank Policy Exchange, said Britain was relapsing into 'high-tax and high-regulation sclerosis just as the rest of Europe begins to shake itself out of statist lethargy'.

Two quotes from the report:
"The rest of Europe has been cutting taxes and pushing through reforms, and what has Britain done? The economy has in effect been been 'bailed out' by housing inflation and debt,"

"Judging by the fiscal deficit trend, the UK is now in worse fiscal shape than almost any other major Western country. In the event of an economic downturn, the UK now has little leeway for stimulus,"

5. Brown has broken his own borrowing rules. After artificial boom nothing has been laid aside.
35

subrosa,

15/09/2008 08:31:36
It's going to be a tough fight in Glenrothes. Labour are leaving it as late as possible in order to get some form of organisation in place (and of course book the buses to bring canvassers from south of the border).
36

Daveunderwater,

Glenrothes Hustings 15/09/2008 08:34:35


Commenting on reports in today’s Daily Record that Gordon Brown is to direct Labour’s campaign in the Glenrothes by-election SNP MSP for Central Fife Tricia Marwick said:

“People in Glenrothes constituency know that it is the SNP that has delivered real benefits for them and their families in the last 12 months by scrapping tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges, investing in new police and reducing business rates and prescription charges.

“In contrast Gordon Brown’s Labour government has done nothing while people in Fife have felt the burden of rising food, fuel and energy costs.

“Instead of taking real action to stabilise fuel prices and to tackle rising fuel poverty as energy companies push bills through the roof, Gordon Brown is meddling in a local campaign, fearing for his future.

“It’s all very well Gordon Brown pulling the strings from Kirkcaldy but will he visit the constituency?

“It's no wonder Brown wants to hand pick the candidate – even after the fiasco in Glasgow East Labour have already lost their first three candidates for this by-election.

“In contrast the SNP has a strong local candidate who in less than 18 months has brought real improvements to Fife by freezing the council tax, turning round Fife Council from a precarious position, saving libraries from Labour closures, investing in education and in Fife’s future with funding for sports centres and economic development across the area.

“Last month people in Glasgow East voted to send a message to Gordon Brown – now it’s the turn of Glenrothes.”
37

John Cameron,

St Andrews 15/09/2008 08:47:37
The Glenrothes election will be a Labour disaster whether or not they oust the hopeless Gordon Brown. He has been the worst Prime Minister since Lord North, and North had the saving grace of being a nice bloke. We are all also suffering from Brown's disastrous mistakes at the Treasury. Surely it is time for a change. The words of an old campaign song I once heard come back to me: "Things can only get better." I wonder whose campaign that was.
38

ennerdale27,

sale cheshire 15/09/2008 09:11:33
No. 34
I( afriad you contradict your own arguement - Brown ( and Mervyn King) both did indeed warn abouit the level of consumer credir and the speculation lead inflation in hoise prices - hence thw gradual increase in interest rates -- a strategy that met with some success.
As to the OECD - they've always got a whinge.
The Policy Exchange - well, they would would they ?
No. 34 - do ypo deny the US banking system is in meltdown?
Do youi deny that this has its roots in poor lending practices and lack of regaultion in the USA?
We are being treated to the spectacle of the Fed to all practicl intents and purposes expropriating three
major banking corporations and maybe four or more.
Do you deny that the parallels with 1929 too uncomfortable to ingnore?
G. Brown seemingly thinks that these are trying times to those who believe in free and flexible markets - for those who believe that these things are far too important to leave to the whim and caprice of the markets and barrow boy bankers with target driven mentalities - its a case of "case proved Mi' Lud"
39

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 09:12:29
The gathering campaign by MP's to oust the Prime Minister could not have come at a worse time with both the Labour Party Conference, and Glenrothes by-election approaching.

Doubt over Brown's future is unlikely to impress Labour voters in Glenrothes, some of whom might well like to see the back of the Prime Minister, and may take the opportunity to vote for the Nationalist candidate just to see him off?
40

Darien,

Panama 15/09/2008 09:20:49
"LABOUR MPs plotting against the Prime Minister risk wrecking the party's chances of avoiding defeat in the crucial Glenrothes by-election"

Excellent news! Bring it on.

#37: "Surely it is time for a change." Aye, for sure, but a few more Scots need to grow the ba**s for real change that makes a positive lasting difference. London-rule is Scotland's problem, no matter what idiot is in charge there. If you mean change back to the Tories, who remain unelectable in Scotland, what is the point of that? It would just be more of the same mix of rule Britannia jingoism combined with economic failure and a collapsing society. Its time all right, but for a lasting meaningful change for the people of Scotland this requires an independent Scots government.
41

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 15/09/2008 09:25:44
Gordon Brown is the albatross that Labour (and the country) is lumbered with..... but as the polls show, it's not for much longer. I hope he leaves Fife for good.

42

Roy,

15/09/2008 09:42:35
Have you noticed that there is a big chunk of the David Maddox 'Hoyrood' story pasted into this one by Ross Lydall. Who is plagiarising who?
43

MacGillicuddy,

15/09/2008 09:47:07
Quote:
" LABOUR MPs plotting against the Prime Minister risk wrecking the party's chances of avoiding defeat in the crucial Glenrothes by-election "

What nonsense! Liebour because it IS Liebour had already blown its chances. It blew its chances when it was transformed into the war-mongering party of the well-off and the party that further impoverished the worst off.
44

MacGillicuddy,

15/09/2008 09:49:36
Furthermore it was stated by Liebour that Crewe & Nantwich and Glasgow East By-elections had to be speedily held so as not to leave their electorates without representation. But with the failure to announce a date for Glenrothes Liebour are displaying utter contempt for the people of Glenrothes. No surprises there then!
45

AJ Fife,

15/09/2008 09:57:32
MacGillicuddy#44,

Very true. I think Broon was hopin' to win a war, turn around the Credit Crunch and turn pig iron into gold in the next few weeks!

Nae luck eh???
46

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 15/09/2008 09:59:53
The second section of this article, "Glenrothes, centre of the political universe" is a verbatim copy of David Maddox's article "Inside Hoyrood (sic) - Glenrothes; centre of the political universe"

Is the Scotsman so hard up for idea's that one journalist has to lift wholesale from another? If it can't get it's sub-headings right, e.g. "Hoyrood", what hopes for accuracy elsewhere?


47

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/09/2008 10:02:52
Has any journalist asked David Cairns to explain why the voters of Glasgow East had to have a quick election because it was not desirable to have to be without an MP yet there is no great rush to give the voters of Glenrothes a similar time scale? As far as I see the time scale of by-elections is always beased on self-serving interests.
48

subrosa,

15/09/2008 10:04:41
What I can't understand is how is the labour candidate going to find the time to campaign? He's supposed to be a troubleshooting headteacher and as we all know teachers work at least twice as hard as everyone else ...
49

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 15/09/2008 10:08:16
Typical Labour smokescreen stuff. When the going gets tough the tough get going - to hide behind the settee.

Or in this case a scare story about how rebelling against Broon will make them lose the election. Guff.
Brown has already lost them this by-election and any other they care to face up to (ok, it's a Scottish Parliament one but bags packed Jack?).

Plus - it's not just one plot - there are several! What it would be like to be as popular as Broon...



50

Number 6,

Germany 15/09/2008 10:17:49
There is nothing and no one who can save Liebour in Glenrothes. Maybe after another comprehensive thrashing, they will see the light and realise,they are not wanted.
Why oh why do they think the Scottish voter is interested in voting for them when the rest of the UK
are rejecting them wholesale. What's wrong with these people?
51

Alan B,

15/09/2008 10:19:00
Brown is a joke.

A failed chancellor in which we will all suffer from his economic shorttermism and mismanagement.
52

Partan,

Fife 15/09/2008 10:35:21
So a visit by Gordie's will cause problems for the Glenrothes candidate but, if they gie him the dicht, it will cause problems for the Glenrothes candidate.
Prime Ministers, eh? Can't live with them....
53

Jimmy Le Pie,

15/09/2008 10:36:12
All the New Labour Sleaze Lords, MP's, MSP's, MEP's, party workers, media supporters and donors seem to have forgotten that they're supposed to put the country and their constituents FIRST.

These clowns can only talk about what is best for 'the party', when they really mean what is best for me (David Marshall springing immediately to mind!)

Just look at how Blair has prospered since he leapt from the sinking ship!
54

morris,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 10:46:27
38

This is a Scottish by election and has a number of distinct differences to down south.
1) The SNP are to the left of New Labour as a general rule,but deal with each issue on an individual basis,of what would benefit the Scottish people.
Anyone who is both a socialist and above average intelligence therefore see the SNP as a viable alternative.
Labour on the other hand are a dilution of the Tory party.
You might consider the Lib Dems in much the same way(as we see the SNP (but God knows why).
2)The SNP are arguably the No 1 party in Scotland and certainly the No2.The jury is still out,but early signs say no 1.
3) England will secure a Tory government which Scotland does NOT want,and you already gave us 18 years including Maggie T(rouble)HATCHER.
Some would argue that Scotland is still recovering from that womans alien nature!

It may be time to stand behind New Labour in some seats in England knowing they are getting their butts fried at a seat near you,and having no chance in hell of being elected.Thats up to you since you only have the Liberals on offer.

Its a different ball game here in Scotland, and Glasgow East showed you just how different it is.
Perhaps if we go back to square one and set the record straight as follows.
We are a multi national state comprising of four countries.

WE ARE NOT THE SAME COUNTRY.
We are to all intents and purposes treated as one in many respects,but we are NOT the same country.
Our legal system and education system and churches were never ever anything other than intact.
THEY STILL ARE.

There is a Scottish dimension to this and its the longest dimension by far!
55

danielrober,

15/09/2008 10:51:24
# 54 morris,edinburgh

"1) The SNP are to the left of New Labour as a general rule,but deal with each issue on an individual basis,of what would benefit the Scottish people.
Anyone who is both a socialist and above average intelligence therefore see the SNP as a viable alternative."


Your kidding, your lieing or your just nuts. Since when has the S 'Nationalist' P been left of Labour?
56

James.com,

15/09/2008 10:51:28
Labeling those who want an Election "Blairite" is swallowing the Party spin line.This self serving Tax and Waste Party is simply inploding.
57

karinxxx,

15/09/2008 10:52:32
i heard a rumour that the snp is to field candidates in england in the general election?

anyone know if its true.

god that would be good.

just think alex could stand on a platform of being fair to england and wales by giving scotland and england independence.
58

karinxxx,

15/09/2008 11:04:53
58

I must really wind you up as you personally abuse me me everytime i come on.

thats good i like that. gonni tell me exactly what it is i do that winds you up so i can do it ALL THE TIME.
59

morris,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 11:06:35
55
No Im a life long Trade Unionist and Shop Steward in Nalgo and then UNISON and you are the one who is off his trolley if you think NEW LABOUR are socialist.Half of your activists have already defected to the SNP or just thrown in the towel completely !

I know because I meet them regularly!The SNP's numbers are swelling whilst Labour's are reducing and the two are hardly coincidence!The elctorate also are rejecting you.Maybe if you asked why you might understand the answer!
The biggest difference bewteen us is I will not be responsible for the election of a Tory government into Scotland via the back door just like you already did for 18 years.(4 times in succession)

You can interpret history anyway you like,but you cannot change the truth .
Why do you think Labour became NEW LABOUR?

Do you think its because they are the same?

You suggest I have a screw loose !
Enjoy the General Election !You will get fried.
60

Number 6,

Germany 15/09/2008 11:13:00
#57 Karen. The SNP standing in Englandshire is something I have advocated for some time now. I feel it would be a winner all round with many Englanders voting SNP in a bid to get rid of us "Sponging Scotch".
61

Miss H,

15/09/2008 11:24:04
The SNP has never stood candidates in England and never will.
62

Miss H,

15/09/2008 11:25:33
55 Since about the late 1980s I would say.

Certainly the SNP has been to the left of Labour since 1997.
63

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 15/09/2008 11:31:10
Left or Right? At the moment, a typical 'Telegraph' reader would be to the left of the Labour Party.
64

Jay Kay,

15/09/2008 11:39:44
whoa hahahahah, god stop it Labour still think they can win in Glenrothes, wwwwwaaaaaaaaaahahahahah oh my god talk about deluded.
65

Number 6,

Germany 15/09/2008 11:40:08
#62 Why will the SNP "Never" put up candidates in Englandshire. What's to stop them ?
66

Ananurhing,

15/09/2008 11:43:36
Nulab are looking like some third world junta led by a despotic sociopath who's lost the plot. They're the last to accept that the game's a bogey. They've lost the electorate, business, the police, and the military. Now they've factionalised and are starting to consume themselves.
Everything they do turns to mush. Look at Iain Gray's feeble grandstanding immediately followed by a gloved slapdown from Governor General Browne.
We need to flush this lot away, they're grasping at increasingly desperate straws. Roll on Glenrothes.
Jings, it's yon time already!
67

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

15/09/2008 11:47:15
55 danielrober,15/09/2008 10:51:24

Your nuts, or just a numpty, or totally whacked out, just what are you snorting about?

There is no such party as the 'S Nationalist P' as you claim.

However there is, in Scotland, a party called the Scottish National Party, this party is a left of centre party, and is the one that forms the present Scottish Government.

As for Nu Labour/Owld Torie, for the past 14 years, since the death of John Smith, the Labour Party (New Labour) has been a right of centre, Thatcherist Party, all the policies they have followed have been direct 'follow-on' policies of 'Thatcherism'.

If you are so blind that you cannae see that I suggest some really deep therapy for you, like coming off whatever hallucinogenic compounds that you are so obviously ingesting.
68

Tynietiger,

15/09/2008 11:51:38
The Reservoir Dogs Mr Brown the Director and Mr Gray the Loser (how many other Labour parliamentarians in Scotland have lost a seat to the Tories in last 30 years)
will bring Robbery, Blood, Violence and Torture.. (in form of higher fuel bills) to the comfort of your own home.
69

Tynietiger,

15/09/2008 11:54:40
Talking about by elections, did you see this in Sunday Times?

Political sleaze file goes missing Sunday Times 14 September
A secret file on alleged sleaze religious bias and nepotism in the Labour party, which. had been stored in the National Archives of Scotland, has gone missing after being removed by the previous Labour led administration.
The sealed documents dealt with the Monklands scandal, which saw Labour councillors accused of religious bias and nepotism in the 1990s. (To which Saint John Smith turned a blind eye)..
The papers, which were to be kept from the public for 30 years, were removed from storage at the National Archives in 2005, just a few months after the introduction of Freedom of Information laws that could have led to their release.
70

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

15/09/2008 12:18:41
65 sm753,15/09/2008 11:33:53

Get yer blinkers aff eejit!!!

Here is an extract from the Helsinki Final Act (CONFERENCE ON SECURITY AND CO-OPERATION IN EUROPE
FINAL ACT ) Helsinki 1975

"VIII. Equal rights and self-determination of peoples

The participating States will respect the equal rights of peoples and their right to self-determination, acting at all times in conformity with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and with the relevant norms of international law, including those relating to territorial integrity of States.

By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, all peoples always have the right, in full freedom, to determine, when and as they wish, their internal and external political status, without external interference, and to pursue as they wish their political, economic, social and cultural development.

The participating States reaffirm the universal significance of respect for and effective exercise of equal rights and self-determination of peoples for the development of friendly relations among themselves as among all States; they also recall the importance of the elimination of any form of violation of this principle."

Amongst the signatories to this Act are The High Representative of the United Kingdom.

So since 1975 the various shades of UK government have been ignoring this 'treaty' that they signed and ratified.
For you or anyone else to suggest that Nu labour had the 'Big Idea of devolution' is disingenuous to say the least, but more probably downright lies.
More to the point even with 'Devolution' the UK government still hasn't meet the obligations of this treaty.
Nothing short of a referendum on independence is acceptable under this treaty, so once again Nu Labour/Owld Torie and their fellow travellers have been found out to be lying!!!

Over to you Dave!!!
71

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 15/09/2008 12:23:01
#38 wrote:

"I( afriad you contradict your own arguement - Brown ( and Mervyn King) both did indeed warn abouit the level of consumer credir and the speculation lead inflation in hoise prices - hence thw gradual increase in interest rates"

Oh dear. Brown was warned repeatedly years ago - not just recently, about out of control debt. You will find questions raised in the House in 2002 for instance. LOL its too late to gradually raise intertest rates when a recession is just about upon us!!! Brown failed to control spiralling debt years ago - you seem to be talking about the last year. He was also warned about spiralling house costs in 2001, when he had already promised in 1997 to not allow a boom in house prices (because with a large boom comes a large bust)

"As to the OECD - they've always got a whinge.
The Policy Exchange - well, they would would they ?"

I see - so any independent report that is critical of the economic handling of UK plc must be wrong or whinging because Labour (LOL not exactly independent or truthful or even competent - look at Brown selling our gold) propaganda says different!

This is so funny!!!

"No. 34 - do ypo deny the US banking system is in meltdown?
Do youi deny that this has its roots in poor lending practices and lack of regaultion in the USA?"

The US has gone down the road of spiralling debt - and Brown has gone down the same route. For the US the war in Iraq was probably a major factor for this since it has cost the US so much - so increased debt temporarily cushioned the blow. Countries more reliant on debt will be hit worse - but UK plc is one of the worst in Europe - and considering we were one of the best in Europe when NuLab took over, this simply shows how our economy has been screwed by NuLab.
72

brownlie,

15/09/2008 12:26:56
72 Rabbie's wee brother

That is interesting in view of the fact that Ian Gray has come out against the referendum which the previous leader wanted to being on.

Is this the first sign of knowing his place in the Labour Party structure?
73

brownlie,

15/09/2008 12:27:44
74

should read "bring on"
74

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

15/09/2008 12:48:01
76 sm753,15/09/2008 12:32:29

'It's a rather "old Labour" idea - been in their manifesto ever since at least 1974, hasn't it?'

No!

Still on the hallucinogens then.

It appears that you can't even read!!!
Go back to my post on Helsinki and read it again, without your myopic glasses on.

Hint!! the second paragraph is the one you should try to understand, if there are any 'big words' that you are having difficulty with, I will try to explain them to you, in words that contain very few syllables.

If you know your history, you will know that Labour originally were the Party of Independence for Scotland, but with their march towards the 'right wing' of politics this was dropped , just like 'the redistribution of national wealth' was dropped from their constitution and manifesto.
75

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

15/09/2008 12:51:02
74 brownlie,15/09/2008 12:26:56

I have posted a comment on that on the EN thread about 'his' front bench'.

Yes, I think it is a case of him 'sookin up' tae Broo(n) Job ;-)
76

Ananurhing,

15/09/2008 12:51:17
Just seen Vince Cable holding up Norway as a shining example of good social and fiscal governance. Presumably that's approval for an oil fund and LIT.

Are you listening Tavish!

See there's another one of Brown's bottles fallen.
Barry Gardener Labour MP sacked for stating the obvious, and telling it like it is. How many's that now?
77

Alan B,

15/09/2008 12:57:38
#danielrober

Trying to tag parties as left right is abit obsolete as they are all much of a much in left right terms. It is much more about what policies and how competent the parties are at managing these policies.

Arguing about whether labour or snp are to the left of each other really depends on how you want to define left and right.

Is supporting nuclear weapons a deterent a left wing policy or right? Or is it irrevelent to a left and right wing argument as both left and right wing governments have supported nuclear weapons.

Economically right wing was generally capitalism. And left socialism ie the state owning the means of production. All the parties are now capitalist and are all therefore supporting that rightish wing ideology even though they like to deny it.

Arguments are now about how to manage a capitalist (right wing) economy. Amount of taxation and use of taxation, employment regulation and trade protectionism.


78

Publius,

London 15/09/2008 12:58:21
#69 Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

You write "there is, in Scotland, a party called the Scottish National Party, this party is a left of centre party".

If the SNP is a left of centre party, the centre of politics must have shifted a very long way to the right!
79

Publius,

London 15/09/2008 13:00:28
I lot of Labour MPs are worried about Brown because they reckon he's a ditherer, but they can't decide whether to get rid of him!
80

karinxxx,

15/09/2008 13:10:11
sm753

you still dont get it do you. You still dont see where the proof is. You still dont see why its true.

apart from all the documents in the council of europe and the national library of scotland you still dont see how the scotland UN groups action stands up to scrutiny. You still cant see the proof can i make a suggestion go to edinburgh castle and look at the stone of destiny.


The scotland UN committe were also involved in getting that back.

Or do you seriously beleive that a country that illegally held on to the stone of scone for over 700 years after all that time one day decided hey i know lets give it back wouldnt that be nice of us.


Your an idiot.

every single true scot in this country that knew the story of the stone watched it come over the border and said to themselves.

"why are they giving it back now im glad to see it back but i really really dont understand why they are doing it"

so has anyone ever heard a convincing explanation why it was given back. I have its in the scotland UN papers.
81

guenevere,

15/09/2008 13:11:59
Brown should hold a general election,as he is there without a mandate from the people.
82

Traquir , Alba,

15/09/2008 13:12:39
"No date has yet been set for the contest, caused by the death of Labour MP John MacDougall".

I wonder why ?

Could it be out of respect ?

Crewe & Natwich - House of Commons
"issuing of the writ before the funeral of Mrs. Dunwoody means that this matter is being pursued with unseemly haste."

see - tinyurl.com/5s7dfc

So apparently nothing to do with respect.

Could it be in the best interests of the
constituents of Glenrothes ?

Gordon Brown on Glasgow East
"It is right that the constituents of this area of Glasgow have a new MP as soon as possible."

see - tinyurl.com/6rfv7b

So apparently nothing to do with the best
interests of the constituents of Glenrothes.

Perhaps the Gray one could show us all how much
he has changed and stand up for Scotland rather
than just being another apologist for Westminster.
Exactly how can he justify the fact that
the people of Glenrothes don't even have
a date to choose their new representative ?
But no we have just yet another in a long
line of cringing sycophants in charge of
the Labour party in Scotland - they don't even
have the guts to establish an independent
Scottish Labour party never mind support
Scotland's interests first and foremost.

In the meantime the SNP should just move
the Writ so they can have the by-election
called on their timetable rather than
on Gordon Brown's.
83

Miss H,

15/09/2008 13:13:14
67 The constitution of the SNP.
84

Miss H,

15/09/2008 13:16:26
81

The centre of Scottish politics has always been somewhat to the left of England so it is no surprise that the SNP is somewhat to the left of Labour.

85

allan58,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 13:16:35
Then good luck to the plotters say I!! The whole rotten New"Labour" edifice is now falling apart at the seams!! The people of Glenrothees owe it to the rest of the UK to hammer another nail into G B's electoral coffin! No doubt, he will "listen & learn" while sifting through the wreckage of another by election defeat. A pity we have to wait until 2010 for all of us to get our say. Unfortunately, G B is showing the same political cowardice as the Tories who desperately clung on to power until finally being ousted! 11 wasted years we've had. Revenge will be truly sweet.I care not who forms the next government. I just want to gloat at Brown's miserable face on getting his marching orders!
86

guenevere,

15/09/2008 13:27:06
It makes no difference what anyone does or doesn't do in the Labour party,they are all finished; David Cameron is the heir in waiting.
87

Alan B,

15/09/2008 13:33:40
#Miss H

How do you define left and right?

It always comes across to me that many of the parties want to rag themselves as left of centre but that really depends on how you want define left and right.

In economic terms capitalism is right wing. Socialism (state owning the means of production was left) with mixed economy in the middle (ie britain in the 70s).

All the 4 major parties are capitalist supporting parties and as such all support that right wing economic philosophy. So none of them support the left wing economic policies.

All argument are about level of tax, use of tax, employment rights (or method to achieve these employment rights ie more than one way to skin a cat). Aswell as trade protectionism which none of the parties can really control without leaving international institutions eg eu and wto.

So how are any of them really leftish wing.

With regard to public spending can we really claim the party that supports universal benefits is more left wing than the one that support targetted benefits.

On social policy it really comes down to liberty or government intervention. If the party is "off the left" it is called nanny state. If the party is said to be of the right it is authoritarian.

Is liberalism right wing as ultimately right wingism is about small government and letting people make there own choices? As such are ID cards an authoritarian measure really a leftwing policy.

At the end of the day it left wing and right wing is confused as parties just tag themselves with the tag they want and it has no really relevence to a consistent view of either.