Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Mandelson accused of 'bully-boy tactics' over HBOS merger

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 06 December 2008
POLITICIANS backing a legal bid to halt the merger of HBOS and Lloyds TSB today accused Business Secretary Lord Mandelson of trying to force the challenge to be dropped.
The MSPs accused Lord Mandelson of "undemocratic bully-boy tactics", saying his lawyers had threatened to sue the Merger Action Group (MAG) for legal costs if they did not halt their court action.

But the Department for Business, Enterprise and Re
gulatory Reform (Berr) insisted an offer extended to the group to withdraw their challenge was "neither an ultimatum nor a threat".

The offer was aimed at saving the group costs, a spokeswoman said.

MAG has formed to mount a last-ditch legal challenge to the deal.

It has taken its case to the Competition Appeal Tribunal (CAT) – a specialist legal body whose function is to decide appeals on competition issues.

MAG claims that Lord Mandelson's decision to allow the merger to go ahead without referring it to the Competition Commission was unlawful.
The appeal hearing is set to be begin on Monday.

Today, the politicians backing the bid accused Lord Mandelson of issuing an "extraordinary ultimatum" to MAG yesterday afternoon, demanding they withdraw their appeal that day.

"Lawyers acting for Lord Mandelson have threatened to sue MAG's six core members individually for legal costs unless they halt their court action," MSPs Margo MacDonald and Alex Neil, who have backed the action, said in a statement.

Independent MSP Ms MacDonald said: "I find it breath-taking that a group of responsible people whose only motive in taking this legal action is what best serves the public interest can be subjected to such threats and intimidation by a member of the UK Government."

She added: "I would be very surprised if the pursuit of the MAG members for legal costs is a matter for Peter Mandelson.

"I would have thought that it is for the tribunal to decide on costs."
SNP MSP Mr Neil added: "Prime Minister Gordon Brown should call off the attack dogs, because these kind of tactics offend our ideas of decency and fair play."

A Berr spokeswoman confirmed the department had written to MAG offering them the chance to withdraw their offer – but said this was to allow them the chance of calling off a costly legal action.

"The Department for Business wrote to the Merger Action Group yesterday offering them the opportunity to withdraw their case in light of the strength of evidence against it," she said.

"The letter was intended to give the appellants a chance to save costs before pursuing their legal challenge further.

"It was neither an ultimatum nor a threat to individual members."

MAG's legal bid was fast-tracked last week, with the tribunal deciding the challenge would begin on Monday. It is hoped the appeal hearing could be completed by the following day.

Although the case is being heard in London, it will be conducted under Scots Law.

MAG has claimed it has raised more than £50,000 for its fight to save Scotland's oldest bank.

The group claims to represent more than 500 shareholders, account holders, businesses and politicians.

The UK Government overruled competition concerns raised by the Office of Fair Trading when it gave the merger between HBOS and Lloyds TSB the green light.

Lord Mandelson said at the time that the public interest of "preserving the stability of the financial system" outweighed any potential anti-competitive effects.

However MAG claimed the due legal process had been ignored.

The group's case is based on three points.

It argues Lord Mandelson was obliged by law to keep an open mind in reaching his decision but was "fettered" by statements made by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Secondly, instead of using the legislation in place at the time, new laws were promoted to approve the merger.

And the merger was said to be needed to avoid the collapse of HBOS and a loss of stability in the financial system, but this argument was superseded by the Government's wider rescue package for the banking sector.

HBOS spokesman Shane O'Riordain has already insisted that the legal bid by MAG has "no merit whatsoever".

MAG spokesman Malcolm Fraser said: "I can confirm that our lawyers did receive a letter from Lord Mandelson's legal team on Friday, inviting us to withdraw our appeal. The invitation was declined.

"We are committed to our case and, in the public interest, we are determined it should go ahead.

"Given that the appeal is due to be heard by the Competition Appeal Tribunal this week, we do not feel it appropriate to comment any further on this matter."



The full article contains 780 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

06/12/2008 13:50:13
Mandelson is a slimey New World Order bag man. Their is nothing he wouldn't do, order or conive in hatching to get success. Remember he is the ultimate architect of New Labour. It was him who groomed Brown and Blair and hatchetted of the old guard.
2

subrosa,

06/12/2008 13:57:40
If this was a fair society, the MAG group could take Mandelson to court for harassment surely.

But who would have the courage to take the unelected PM of the UK to court. How this man is allowed to have this power is beyond me - then again Brown is so weak. Because Mandelson is unelected the tories are unable to attack him in the Commons.

Surely David Cameron has to start on handy Mandy and be vocal about his power.
3

Tris,

dundee 06/12/2008 13:59:13

Mandleson... illegal.... surely not... what with him being Rt Hon and Noble?

It couldn't be, could it?
4

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 06/12/2008 14:19:42
Mandelson has twice been thrown out of office in disgrace. How on earth can he be en-nobled for that pathetic and appalling record of betraying the public?
5

,

06/12/2008 14:39:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

,

06/12/2008 14:43:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

SlyFifer,

Smewhere south of Fife 06/12/2008 14:52:47
Mandelson a discredited politician, un-elected, directed by an un-elected Prime Minister dedicated to do 'Whatever it takes' to uphold the Union and by doing so destroy the Scottish economy for generations to come. Seems to me that this is the end game, it's been obvious for some time. This Union - rotten to the core can't implode quickly enough. The task facing the Scottish government in re-construction is huge. It needs all the resources that a parliament can muster to achieve results. The SNP can't be expected to do it alone. The need for another political force in Scotland pulling in parallel with the SNP has been obvious for a while with the existing opposition parties discredited and finished, a viable opposition with an independence agenda cannot surface too soon.
8

,

06/12/2008 14:59:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

,

06/12/2008 15:05:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

,

06/12/2008 15:12:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

subrosa,

06/12/2008 15:57:50
# 11

Traquir, I understood that MAG's asked for the case to be fast tracked because of there is another shareholder vote this month.
12

Joe Macdelta.,

06/12/2008 16:26:41
After twice being thrown out of parliment, he should not be back in this position, he's too sleekit by far.
13

No1Bob,

Not in Brigadoon 06/12/2008 16:44:49
Can anyone tell me where Margo MacDonald or Alex Neil where when Llotds TSB bought Scottish Widows? I don't recall any complaints from them when this happened.

14

Alex Salmond's Briefcase Carrier,

@googledictionary 06/12/2008 17:00:05
Talking about this issue I had to find for the Boss the meaning of Jakesh and Mariconazo, which in Iranian and Spanish respectively describe the actitude of said Mandy with reference to MAG.

Not for the faint hearted, but true nevertheless.
15

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

06/12/2008 17:45:52
A wee link for AM2 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00g4vxp/Party_Political_Broadcast_Ulster_Unionsit_Party_05_12_2008/
16

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 18:16:54
It must be galling for you lot of losers, posting above, to realise that Lord Peter Mandelson is smarter than the lot of you combined.
SNP activists bringing frivolous and vexatious cases before the courts should be surcharged or made to pay their share of the costs when their fatuous cases fall. Otherwise the taxpayer will carry their burden; I suppose that if fair to supporters of the SNP though.
Dole scroungers and job dodgers today are Salmond's SNP activists and canvassers at election time.
17

Bele's bane,

Scotland 06/12/2008 18:39:24
This man represents a party that sings the communist anthem the, international at its meetings.

Stalinst tacticts are therefore no surprise, neither is the pursuance of an anti-nationalist agenda!
18

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 18:42:04
It's been a long time since the singing of the internationale has meant anything to Labour, and there is no conflict between nationalism and internationalism.
19

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 18:45:08
17

Being a corrupt small minded self serving criminal posing as a politician doesnt take smarts it takes pettyness, meanness, ignorance, arrogance, selfishness and the right shape of mouth to reach parts of the orifice no others can.
In short somebody who rates just above a multi name cyber troll pretending he gives a sh.t about the issues under discussion.
20

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 18:54:25
Mandelson must be worried.
21

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 18:56:24
'Former' Communist Peter Mandelson cavorts with 'former' KGB boss in latest corruption scandal

tinyurl.com/5peva2
22

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 19:12:30
I genuinely don't understand the argument about "saving" HBOS. I mean, obviously there is the usual set of blinkered, dribbling Cyber Nats who can interpret every situation as a threat to Scotland or a dastardly ploy of Unionist overlords - but for the rational people, a genuine question:

What exactly do you want to save?

Is it jobs? In which case, on what possible basis do you think an independent HBOS would be able to retain all of its current workforce in the face of recession?

Is it a "Scottish institution"? In which case, where were you when Halifax took over the BoS, because surely that was when the BoS was "lost" wasn't it? And further, how can something be considered "Scottish" when it is a public company, listed on the London Stock Exchange, owned by investors all around the globe and trading all over the world?

Is it Edinburgh's position as a financial services hub? In which case, wouldn't it be far better to attract more, different, successful businesses, and ensure that whatever mergers go on, Edinburgh remains attractive to the financial services sector as a base?

Rational answers welcomed. Dribbling nationalist hate not so welcome, thanks.
23

Rasco,

06/12/2008 19:17:54
Come on the Gray man what have you to say about this then,you and the Murph man will just as usual blame Alex,I also see Hutton is to scale back the building of warships,SNPs fault again I suppose I wish Gray you would call a vote of no confidence on the SNP and get an election but knowing you no chance.
24

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 19:21:08
23 Why do you assume all nationalists are dribblers ? That's very rude.

I guess I am against the merger for the same reason as the Office of Fair Trading was, and the Competition Commission would have been had they been allowed to consider it. And the EU, who may yet derail it.

It stinks.
25

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 19:24:30
23 Dribbling Duncan in Edinburgh

Don't despair - there is hope:

tinyurl.com/5mvhue
26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 19:27:01
#25 If I had assumed that you would be right to pull me up on it. Since I did no such thing, sod off.
27

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 19:29:49
27 gone in a huff have you now that you realise this is not nationalist paranoia ? There are many many voices questioning this merger. You don't need to be a ''blinkered, dribbling cybernat'' to do so.
28

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 19:33:33
Duncan - you're a bitter wee man. Life hasn't been kind to you? Never mind it will improve after independence.
29

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 19:38:12
#28 I haven't gone anywhere, but I am sick to death of accusations like yours, which twist the facts to your own purposes. I didn't say what you accused me of saying, and I am sick of giving people like you the benefit of the doubt when you make such stupid mistakes.

I asked a question about the notion of "saving" HBOS which you singularly failed to address. Instead you misrepresented one line and attacked me for what I didn't say. It's pretty tiring.
30

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 19:44:09
30 - take your own advice and sod off. You came on here looking for a fight by making statements about dribbling cybernats and nationalist hate.

And I addressed your point in entirety, although for me it is not about ''saving'' HBOS which has got no more moral right to survive this crisis than any other bank (personally I would nationalise them, in the short term at least).

But look at the facts, and look at who is pulling the strings. This merger goes against every rule in the book, written and unwritten. It is not necessary, and I think it is being done for political reasons because it has attracted wide interest and strong emotions, and a reversal of the merger would be seen as a nationalist victory. And we can't have that.
31

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 19:45:59
23

"Is it jobs? In which case, on what possible basis do you think an independent HBOS would be able to retain all of its current workforce in the face of recession"

Duncan there is no comparrison to the amount of potential job losses due to the potential take over comparred to letting HBOS remain its own company.
The comparison isnt even in the same ball park

"Is it a "Scottish institution"

Yes of course it is which is why the UK government will only allow Lloyds to take it over and nobody else in fact they are willing to break their own legislation in order to allow this to happen and the result is what? a fiancial monster which will destroy any semblence of fair competition in banking and finance how can anybody support that?

"Is it Edinburgh's position as a financial services hub? In which case, wouldn't it be far better to attract more, different, successful businesses"

Dont you think that would be much easier to do if Edinburgh was the capital of an Independent nation instead of just another regional city within the UK?
For one thing it would be full of international embassies would it not?

Now lets see you deal with each of these issues in a reasonable and honest way for a change.
32

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 19:56:02
#32 You say there is no comparison on potential job losses - from where do you get that information? As far as I can see, HBOS as an independent bank would have to cull a great deal of customer-facing staff, sell off a number of business units, and downsize a substantial part of their back office operations merely to survive. There's no question that a merged Lloyds/HBOS would be closing branches and cutting jobs where there is doubling up of services, but unless you have some evidence to say that this would be "in a different ballpark" then I'm afraid I don't believe you. I think the recession will hit HBOS staff hard, whoever owns them. Don't you?

I don't think you understood the second part. You certainly didn't address my point.

As far as financial services in Edinburgh goes, your argument makes no sense, since right now we have RBS, HBOS, Lloyds TSB Scotland, Aegon UK, Standard Life, Scottish Widows, Baillie Gifford, Martin Currie, Noble Group, Dunfermline Building Society, Scottish Life, Intelligent Finance and Clydesdale Bank with major hubs here. Tesco Finance has just announced they are opening a headquarters here. None of these people thought they needed to wait for independence.
33

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 19:56:28
23 continued

This whole fiasco smacks of a constitutional political cross border raid. There appears to be one rule for English financial institutes and another for Scottish or any with links in Scotland. Northern Rock refused a bail out package and almost immediately nationalised. Bradford and Bingley the same. HBOS has the competition legislation dropped in time to allow a run on its share price as Lloyds announces its take over bid. All other bids refused and shown the door. Even when the crises run on HBOS shares didnt cause its collapse the take over is still being pushed hard by the Government and all other options not considered.
It stinks worse than your posts.
34

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 19:58:44
Remember Duncan - this merger was announced before the big bank bail-out. That should have changed things, but didn't. Why not ? And why the utter desperation of Mandy to prevent this hearing ? Threatening this group with costs (which are at the discretion of the Tribunal) is a low down dirty trick which tells me that they are very worried about something.
35

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:06:23
#34 That would be your dribbling side coming out. I did ask you not to. This is NOT about the big bad English being mean to the poor Scottish, and your attempts to paint it as such are tiring.
36

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:06:50
33

http://www.mirror.co.uk/advice/money/2008/11/04/140-000-workers-at-lloyds-tsb-and-hbos-face-job-loss-115875-20867853/

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/business-news/HBOS-job-loss-fears-grow.4653169.jp

Just a couple there are loads more expressing the same concerns.

It makes no sense to Edinburghs potential for attracting businesses to be an Independent national capital full of foreign embassies?????????? relative to just being another regional city in the UK???????

which part of that doesnt make sense to you then Duncan and why?

37

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:08:00
#35 But he didn't threaten them with costs, did he. That would be what we call "a lie". He pointed out that they could be liable for costs, and suggested the best way to avoid costs, given that they are overwhelmingly unlikely to win the case, is to drop this parochial silliness and do something more productive for the economy instead.
38

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:11:13
#37 Edinburgh is currently the second biggest financial centre in Europe, behind London. In what way do you believe it has been held back by being "just another regional city in the UK"? What impact do you believe independence would have on the financial sector in Edinburgh, given that most of those companies are listed on the London Stock Exchange? Would this be a good time to pull up one of those nice comparisons with other small independent nations in Europe? Where are their capitals on the financial services league table?
39

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:13:54
38 No, the article said that lawyers acting for Mandy had threatened to sue them for costs. Normally the award of costs is at the discretion of whoever is hearing the case to dispose of.

Read this

tinyurl.com/55s2b4

40

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:17:28
39

Eh no it isnt it is the second biggest in the UK and only the fifth largest in Europe get your facts right.

What difference does it make to any company where it floats its shares contitutionally Duncan?

Be nice to pull up a comparison with regards to poverty levels eh?
41

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 20:20:21
40 Observer. 1, Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:13:54

Interesting article.
42

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:23:32
Duncan

Its now transparently obvious you make up your posts as you go along. Is this rag really this desperate to keep folk posting on these blogs?
You dont care if you post blatent lies and misinformation as long as it generates a response.
Jesus how sad is that.
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:25:59
#40 The article quoted two politicians making that claim, and a government spokesperson denying it. I know who I believe. Apparently you have unquestioning faith that everything Margo McDonald says is the pure truth, and everything the government says is a lie?
44

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:27:13
#43 That's exactly the sort of nonsense I am sick of from you and people like you. You did it yesterday and you're doing it again today. You are incapable of rational discussion.
45

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:28:07
44

I have absolute and undeniable faith in the UK Governments dishonesty and corruption why dont you?
46

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:29:09
I have no faith in anyone Duncan, but not being prejudiced I can see that there are more questions than answers surrounding this merger, and as the consequences are likely to have an impact on Scotland, I am naturally concerned.

What puzzles me is why you are not.
47

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:31:07
45

Well that balances out your inability to post honestly.
So between my Irrationality and your dishonesty we should be able to muster quite an interesting set of posts between us eh?
48

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 20:36:19
Hazel posted this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclxSWMmZNk

Guid yin Hazel
49

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:37:00
#47 I never said I wasn't concerned. Yet again, I am simply trying to explore the issue from a different angle. My original post was quite clear, I thought - nowhere did I say I wasn't concerned, nowhere did I say I supported the merger in its present form.

But again and again you and others post inflammatory comments which stem from an irrational, nationalistic viewpoint, and I get suckered into responding to them.

My biggest concern, as I already said, is that this has become a political football for the SNP, who have turned it into a "save" HBOS campaign. The whole thrust of my original post was to understand what it means to "save" HBOS. I think people are largely talking rubbish about this. HBOS is as Scottish as Lloyds TSB.
50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:37:51
#46 Because that would be a stupid, bone-headed and ignorant position to take.
51

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:37:56
Tell me Duncan what actually is the Governments case for allowing the take over of HBOS by LLoyds and only Lloyds? It obviously cant be to save HBOS nor can it be to help stablise the market as this merger would cause a massive financial institutional imbalance in the UK. So what exactly is the motivation behind the governments obsession with this take over?
52

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:42:45
#52 I don't know. What does "save HBOS" mean?
53

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:43:17
51

Not an honest one then? taking into consideration the governments record on forcing us into illegal wars, non existant WMDs? selling honours for cash? numerous expenses scandals? dodgy arms deals in Saudi Arabia?
Lying to Parliament? lying about inflation figures? lying about immigration figures? lying about unemployment figures? etc etc etc etc etc.
54

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:44:03
#52 Oh god, and what on earth is "a massive financial institutional imbalance" supposed to mean? And how could it possibly be caused by shifting the ownership of a bank from Halifax to London?
55

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:44:08
53

You fully support the position the government is taking with regards to the HBOS take over and you dont even know what that position is?
56

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/12/2008 20:45:27
#38 Dunked in Excrement

Did you even bother to read the article before dribbling your defense of what is seen everywhere as a blatant politically motivated stitch-up.

"Lawyers acting for Lord Mandelson have threatened to sue MAG's six core members individually for legal costs unless they halt their court action,"

That seems to negate your statement of "But he didn't threaten them with costs, did he. That would be what we call "a lie"."


57

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:45:36
55

It couldnt it happens when you have a single banking institute take over 24% of all banking business within the UK and its nearest rival has at best 8%.
58

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:46:39
50 - yes, well if you can contain your dislike for all things nationalist you will see that at post 31 I said much the same as you have just done, except from my perspective it is the UK Govt who are doing all they can to push this merger through so that the HBOS doesn't become a nationalist banking shibboleth.

So we are agreed it's a political football, we just disagree about who is kicking it the most.
59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:47:37
#54 Yes, it's easy to list things which have been lied about over the past ten years. You can do the same for any government anywhere in the world, including Scotland. The leap from that to believing that nothing they say is true is simply irrational. The vast majority of the people who work in and for government in the UK are honest, hard working and fair.
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:49:26
#56 Really, you do this just to annoy me don't you. Where did I ever say I fully supported their position? Can you read?
61

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:52:21
60 what other UK Govt in recent history has told the kind of lie which led us into Iraq, and has helped make the world seven times more dangerous as a result ? None that I can remember.
62

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:52:43
#57 Can YOU read?

Let's have that selective quote in context shall we?

'"Lawyers acting for Lord Mandelson have threatened to sue MAG's six core members individually for legal costs unless they halt their court action," MSPs Margo MacDonald and Alex Neil, who have backed the action, said in a statement.'

I don't believe them. Here's why:

'A Berr spokeswoman confirmed the department had written to MAG offering them the chance to withdraw their offer – but said this was to allow them the chance of calling off a costly legal action.

"The Department for Business wrote to the Merger Action Group yesterday offering them the opportunity to withdraw their case in light of the strength of evidence against it," she said.

"The letter was intended to give the appellants a chance to save costs before pursuing their legal challenge further.

"It was neither an ultimatum nor a threat to individual members."'

and then

'MAG spokesman Malcolm Fraser said: "I can confirm that our lawyers did receive a letter from Lord Mandelson's legal team on Friday, inviting us to withdraw our appeal. The invitation was declined."'

So, neither the government nor MAG say such a threat was made. Two politicians with vested interests do.

Next time before you post asking if I've "bothered to read" something, bother to read the *whole* thing yourself.
63

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 20:52:43
I don't know why anyone would want to engage with Duncan. He is a low brow who imagines insulting others constitutes debate.
64

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:53:49
60

Its a shame none of them are in the cabinet though eh? and very few of them are in the house of commons and even less of them in the house of Lords.
And it shouldnt be easy to list the lies by Government because it shows they are no longer accountable for them.
Now why dont you put up a comparible list of lies told by the Scottish government so we can all shoot it down for the bullsh.t it will undoubtably be.
65

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:55:44
#59 So from what did you get your assumption that I wasn't concerned? Truly, my original post was quite clear, and you chose to misrepresent the first line of it which sent us off on a tangent. Pointless.

66

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:56:11
64

There aint anybody else to argue with. Its either argue with Duncan or argue with Duncan under another name.
67

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 20:57:30
63 When engaged in a legal dispute, if your much larger opponent writes to you and allows you a chance to save costs before pursuing the case further - that is a threat.
68

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:58:09
#64 You can sod off as well if your only contribution is going to be ad hominem attacks. My original post was quite clear. I am happy to debate that. But I am sick to death of nationalist nonsense clogging up this site with glib, idiotic calls to defend Scotland against the UK government. We aren't under attack.
69

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 20:58:31
67 A True Scot., 06/12/2008 20:56:11

Aye - where are all his co-religionists today?
70

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 20:58:51
A True Scot # 20

The solution is simple, stand for Parliament yourself and you will be able to right all of your perceived wrongs.
71

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 20:58:58
#68 So you don't believe Margo and Alex Neil either?
72

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 20:59:02
61

You have done nothing else but argue for the Governments position and shown your own full support for the governments part in allowing the take over to happen.
73

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:00:56
71

Oh are you under the immpression anybody can stand for a seat in Parliament then? nievity in a nutshell.
74

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:01:56
66 Everything you have said so far indicates that you accept the story as presented by the UK Govt. You seem to think that opposition to the merger is rooted in irrational nationalism. If I have mistaken your position then feel free to correct me.
75

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:02:07
71

You,ll be telling us next any US citizen can be the President of the US.
76

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:02:07
#73 Rubbish. An out and out lie. I have done no such thing. You simply have no capacity to see that there are two sides to this issue. I have expressed no support whatever for the government in this. I just think the arguments about "saving HBOS" are a crock, and since they seem to be the main basis for opposition to the government's plans then I want to explore them.
77

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 21:02:10
67 A True Scot.

He is a very bitter person. I wonder what happened to him to make so nasty? Perhaps he was weaned too early or improperly potty trained.
78

Martyk,

06/12/2008 21:03:22
What would have happened to HBOS in that particular week the Lloyds deal was announced? If you recall it was collapsing before our eyes. No. The Lloyds deal must go through. If I were Broon and somehow the deal was blocked I would let it collapse.
79

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:05:02
#75 Accepting the story as presented by the government is quite different from supporting their position.

I do not believe the UK government is lying here.

I do not believe they are mounting a dastardly plot to kill HBOS.

I do not believe it because it is not credible.

I do accept that there are serious competition concerns. I do accept that there are risks of job losses - though I believe there is no option on the table without such risks.

But I have absolutely no time for the dribbling conspiracy theories of the SNPites on here who view everything as a plot from Braveheart.
80

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:06:00
77

We would all like to explore them in depth but there appears to be a Government cover up regarding the details of their dealings with Lloyds and the lifting of the competition legislation at a time which allowed HBOS to become vulnerable to a heavy run on its share price not to mention the China bank bid and now Mandalsons involvement with the legal challange.
81

Martyk,

06/12/2008 21:07:08
What would have happened to RBS without the £ 20 Billion bail out last week? It would have collapsed too. Get it in your heads. We are not a financial centre of any importance. We couldnt run a push up in a brewery. And thats the truth.
82

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:07:43
72 I find myself in complete agreement with Margo and Alex Neil. The Tribunal should dispose of costs. For lawyers acting on behalf of the Government to threaten personal suits for recovery of costs against the pursuers is outrageous.
83

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 21:08:01
The government financed takeover of HBoS smells as bad as a ten day old fish. Anyone arguing the contrary is having a larf or is sectionable.
84

Martyk,

06/12/2008 21:08:53
What China Bank bid ??? For goodness sake there never was one ! Whats wrong with you people ?
85

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:09:46
81

But you said in post 53 you didnt understand what the governments position was so how can you claim to believe they are not lying? are you basing that claim on their track record for honesty then?
86

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:10:11
81 you really are very rude. Nothing I have said is remotely dribbly. I have presented you with facts, you are choosing to ignore them.
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:11:14
#84 So you believe the UK taxpayers should pay the costs of this doomed little nationalist adventure?

Us, in other words - you think we should pay the legal fees for this trumped up parochial "bid" to "save" HBOS?
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:11:53
#88 I was not referring to you.
89

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:12:32
#88 And you have presented opinions, not facts. The words of Margo are not facts...
90

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 21:13:03
A True Scot # 76

If your are born in the USA you can be President,is that right or wrong? Ask Obama!
What is your point?
91

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:13:21
86

Thats because the government "discouraged" it.
It has to be Lloyds and nobody else no why is that?
92

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:13:28
86 - see the link I posted earlier which takes you to tomorrow's Sunday Herald. Read it please.
93

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:13:49
93

Says who? based on what evidence?
94

Ewan M,

06/12/2008 21:14:41
Same old comments from SNP supporters based on paranoia and a massive sense of victimhood. What a sorry lot some of them are.
95

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:16:04
92

Why is that? is it because she is not a unionist politician then?
96

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:16:45
90 Duncan you are not looking at this rationally. Don't think about this as a ''nationalist'' issue. The case against this merger stands on it's own. There are many people questioning it who have no connection with the SNP. Like Which? for example, not well nationalists as far as I am aware.
97

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:16:50
98

When our posts get as meaningless as yours then you may have a case in point.
98

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 21:17:11
94 A True Scot., 06/12/2008 21:13:21

That is a question they will not answer. Of all the banks being bailed out why is HBoS treated differently? Why is the taxpayer buying HBoS and giving it to Lloyds?

Silence ...
99

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:18:37
92 I haven't quoted Margo once. I don't need to.
100

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:20:40
90

The UK taxpayers are already paying for the governments fiscal incompetance in their savings mortgages and assets or are you going to claim you dont believe this financial meltdown is in part the responsiblity of government?
101

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 21:21:03
The simple solution to the self-inflicted HBOS problem is for the UK government to withdraw their support, at the behest of the SNP.
The SNP will then resolve the problem...
Slimy Salmond, your move...

Salmond is like a dog chasing a car, what happens when he catches up...?
102

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 21:23:27
A True Scot # 96

The result...
103

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:23:53
102

Thats right even Duncan claims "he doesnt know" the governments position on this matter yet he then claims in post 81 he accepts the story presented by the government.
Make what you can out of that garbage. He cant even keep his lies consistant.
104

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 21:24:22
106 Churchill W., 06/12/2008 21:21:03

How about just giving HBoS the same treatment as the other banks? And if not - why not?
105

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:25:04
107

What result? has every citizen in the US held the office of the US president then?
106

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:25:58
#108 You drive round the bend with these misrepresentations.

I said I did not know the government's reasons for preferring a Lloyds takeover to any other. I did not say I did not know "their position on this matter" as you have now twice claimed.

Sod it, you are not worth the bother. I'm off for a drink.
107

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/12/2008 21:26:46
#39 Dunked in Excrement

Edinburgh is not the second biggest financial center in Europe. According to The World Centers of Commerce list Edinburgh is in 43rd place globally and in Europe you are behind Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Madrid, Copenhagen, Zurich, Stockholm, Milan, Berlin, Vienna, Munich, Brussels, Dublin, Hamburg, Barcelona, Dusseldorf and Geneva.

It terms of small countries in Europe that do very well out of financial services Luxembourg, Dublin, Geneva and Zurich all do better than Edinburgh.

But the size of the country has never meant anything in becoming an important financial center. Hong Kong and Singapore both dwarf Edinburgh by miles and they both have populations roughly the size off Scotland.
108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/12/2008 21:28:49
#112 I will return merely to say this - I got that statistic from the City of Edinburgh Council website. If it is wrong, it is their mistake.
109

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:30:52
111

Ah so you dont know their reasons for preferring Lloyds but you know their position on the matter of preferring Lloyds and you can agree with it on that basis? is that right?
110

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 21:33:00
Let the poor man have a drink. He's defending the indefensible.
111

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:33:04
113

And you posted it as fact as you usually do thats commonly referred to as lying.
112

A True Scot.,

06/12/2008 21:34:19
111

So basically your agreeing with the government for no reason because you dont know what it is.
113

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 21:46:35
Scunnert # 109

Let Salmond and his supporters come up with their money to support HBOS. Salmond, clearly, has the solution; why doesn't tell tell us what it is.

Nah, Salmond is barking and still chasing cars.
114

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 21:48:38
118 Churchill W., 06/12/2008 21:46:35

No answers then? Not surprised.








115

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 21:57:02
Scunnert,# 119

I am not surprised either, Salmond has no answers, nor will he ever.
116

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 06/12/2008 22:01:21
I am sure it isn't just me who finds the unionists taste for disparaging Scotland by whatever means necessary distasteful and psychologically disturbing.
117

Scunnert,

06/12/2008 22:05:51
121 Observer

"psychologically disturbing"

As I've commented before - these folks are suffering from cognitive dissonance.
118

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 22:09:00
Why has Salmond not got a better deal for Scotland's mortgage payers? He got prescription charges reduced, why can he not do the same for mortgages?
What would you rather have reduced, your prescription charges or your mortgage? Salmond has made your choice for you nevertheless; without asking us what we would prefer. He still keeps his multi-wage lifestyle at our expense though.
Salmond is a little dog chasing a car, what will happen when he catches up with the car?
119

Churchill W.,

06/12/2008 22:14:44
Scunnert # 122

It is obvious that you are conflicted; logic and support for Salmond's policies would cause that in normal people, never mind people like you.
120

Finlang,

France 06/12/2008 22:17:32
#64 Scunnert
"I don't know why anyone would want to engage with Duncan. He is a low brow who imagines insulting others constitutes debate."

It must be a gay thing, Scunnert. He has a counterpart in the clown posting on various threads from Ottawa, Canada. The modus operandi bear clear comparison. Maybe they're competing in the Dirty David Starkey Stakes.

The pair of them specialise in "sod off" and "eff off" remarks to other posters. Words like "idiot", "cretinous" and a whole load more comprise much of their stunted vocabulary. Reason is a foreign country to them.

121

Matt there,

Somewhere 06/12/2008 23:55:14
It's like the result of a banned genetic experiment, isn't it? They splice the DNA of two wildly different creatures together and produce a monster hybrid called the MandiBrown.
122

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 07/12/2008 01:08:37
like.the.big.three.in.DETROIT.sink.or.swim
123

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 06:37:14
123

Because he doesnt have access to Scotlands resources and income thats being used to subsidise the rest of the UK.
124

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:08:50
#123 Churchill

What a confused rant !
125

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:14:11
#81 dunce

This is the same Duncan who was objecting to people mounting personal attacks on others. It seems he is disinclined to apply the same rules to his own "dribble".

I have no such problems, Duncan youre an unpleasant, attogant eejit, full of your own self-importance. Hence the reason why you are so despised on these threads.
126

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:18:32
Anyway, back to the story.

It seems that Brown, Darling and Mandy are terrified at the prospect of their whole can of worms being opened to public scrutiny.

It has been clear from day one that when they said that there would be a level playing field for all potential bidders they were lying.

They routinely deployed the "there's only one serious bid on the table" mantra, whilst ensuring, behind the scenes, that this continued to be the case. That is why the Bank of China walked away.
127

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/12/2008 13:29:29
#126 If anyone "despises" me on these forums, it is purely and simply because I don't support the SNP. I have been called all names under the sun because of it, even told that I hate Scotland just because I don't support one party. That's the biggest problem around here - those who think that to be a "true Scot" you have to support the SNP. It's a dangerous sign of the state of our politics.
128

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 07/12/2008 16:55:41
Duncan So you would believe this government, which now includes Peter Mandelson and Alistair Campbell. I cannot think of one instant that either Margo McDonald or Alex Neil have ever been forced to leave office for "dirty dealing". Not so your two heroes! And remember, the late John Smith, held as an icon of probity, would not allow Mandelson to be in the same room as himself when addressing the shadow cabinet meetings. The catalogue of "naughty boys and girls in New Labour now far outway anything experienced with the Tories.I suppose you now trust the ability of Gorbals Mick and Alistair Darling to be two better candidates in power than Margo and Alex? Seems you are quite content to let "market forces" destroy the good name of the financial reputation of your home city. What a Toom Tabard!
129

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 07/12/2008 16:58:26
In my haste to respond I erred with "outweigh". Still, you get what I mean!
130

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 07/12/2008 17:00:19
Lord of Sleaze and Murk probably is a bullied housewife at home so it is natural as any social worker will tell you he responds by bullying in the workplace
131

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 07/12/2008 17:11:10
Duncan I just caught onto your last sentence, "It's a dangerous sign of the state of politics". I trust you recall an illegal war in Iraq, a destructive engagement in Afghanistan, a clunking fist to sort out Mugabe, a Boom and Bust promise, prudence with the economy now in freefall,the enquiry into Menendes murdering, the poor getting poorer and the rich, richer, the MoD and compensation for nuclear exposure to our guinnea pig troops, Deep Cut and suicides unexplained, the "death" of Dr Kelly, ID cards and their consequences to human rights, the debt burden still not qualified (creative accountancy) et al. The list is unending! Not supporting one particular party is no crime. What is almost criminal is believing the criminals in our midst right now.
132

Gorach,

The west awake 07/12/2008 18:03:40
It is taking time but more and more Scots are waking up to what is being done to their country. The latest episode with HBOS is full of skullduggery and unanswered questions. It has created great anger and hopefully will generate great action.If the history of my lowland cousins is any indication, I'm sure it will.
I, for one, will not be doing business with Lloyds,no matter what name they want to put on the outside of the bank.
Perhaps a new Scottish bank can be created by the bankers and business folk who are opposed to the takeover. BoS customers and employees will flock to it.
Counter action and business success is the best revenge.

Alba gu Brath,
Slainte!


133

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

visit http://www.oilofscotland.org NOW 08/12/2008 21:39:15
The problems caused by greed in the banking industry were predicted well before the recent credit crunch.

As soon as HBOS shares dipped Gordon Brown announced a merger with Lloyds TSB making a super bank, a merger that breaks the merger regulations. The announcement of this possible merger caused shares in both banks to tumble as money markets do not want a monopoly in UK banking.

The question is, did Gordon Brown deliberately for political reasons announce a merger that would cripple HBOS a Independent Scottish Bank to make it disappear to make Scot's question Independence.

The fact that, Westminster has announced, that if the merger does not go ahead the 13 Billion taxpayer bail out for HBOS will be withdrawn.
The fact that they scared off the Bank of China.
The fact that LORD Mandelson has voiced his unionist views.

All prove the underhand Unionist Politics of Westminster. http://www.oilofscotland.org

In the next few days Scotland may loose one of it's biggest banks - thanks to the Union which prevails because of the feckless http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk

(13 Billion is less than one year of Scotland's oil money - North Sea Oil is the U.K's Largest Industry)
134

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

Visit http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk IF YO 08/12/2008 21:40:32
IF YOU VOTE LABOUR VISIT

http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk

FIND OUT THE TRUTH BEHIND THE PUPPETS YOU VOTE FOR !!!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.