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Big projects must wait as SNP funding plan remains in doubt



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Published Date: 21 May 2008
THE Scottish Government's flagship policy for funding major public projects was last night branded a shambles – amid renewed fears of delays in building new schools, hospitals and the Forth crossing.
The SNP's widely anticipated Scottish Futures Trust programme was also denounced as a broken election promise. Opponents said the Nationalists had gone back on their pledge by still allowing private firms to profit by funding major schemes.

Launch
ing the SFT, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said it would save up to £150 million a year by securing cheaper investment rates on markets through bulk purchasing. "The development of the Scottish Futures Trust is the way forward, offering both better value finance and secure investment," he said.

"It is right for Scotland, right for our public services and right for our times. By releasing up to £150 million each year for increased investment, we can ensure more resources for our public infrastructure compared to wasteful PFI."

However, critics immediately pounced on the document and said it appeared to be full of holes. On page 39, the proposal openly admitted that it still did not know how private finance would be raised – and while the Scottish Government plans to create a new municipal bond based on the collective assets and revenue streams of councils, none has yet signed up to it. This sparked immediate fears of delays for key projects, including the new Forth crossing.

The SFT is due to be set up in the summer as an arms-length government company. However, no new projects will be commissioned until at least the 2009-10 financial year, leading to concerns about schemes already waiting for funding.

The SNP had proposed the futures trust as a means of replacing the much-derided public private partnerships (PPPs) which they claimed allowed the private sector to profiteer at the expense of the public purse. The PPP had replaced the very similar private finance initiative.

But last night, unions damned the SFT proposal as simply being another form of PPP, a criticism echoed by political parties who also questioned why no projects were commissioned for a year while the SNP looked for an alternative to PPP.

They pointed to the fact the SFT would use the not-for-profit distribution mechanism which is a form of PPP, and simply means the level of profit is agreed at the outset of the contract. "It is merely PFI-lite," said Unison's Scottish secretary Matt Smith. "No amount of spin can change the fact that the private sector will continue to build, design and run public services under this plan, and they will continue to take a profit out of our essential services."

Andy Kerr, Labour's local government spokesman, added: "The SFT is PPP with a lick of cheap paint. Most observers recognise the makeover has only produced uncertainty. This is a hare-brained scheme, a shambles, which will only lead to delay or possible cancellation of vital projects like new schools or even the new Forth road bridge."

Derek Brownlee, the Conservative finance spokesman, said: "The Scottish Futures Trust has changed more often than Labour's referendum policy. However it is dressed up, the key principle of PFI/PPP is maintained – leveraging in private investment into public infrastructure. Put simply, it is not so much the SFT, as the SNP-PP."

Liam McArthur, the Liberal Democrat finance spokesman, also scorned the proposals. "The only thing about the Scottish Futures Trust which they haven't changed is the name," he said.

Business leaders were also unimpressed by the lack of detail.

In particular, a line from the document admitted that there was no real strategy to raise private finance. It said: "The details of how investment will be raised from the private sector has not been explored in any detail as part of this strategic business case, rather that will fall to SFT delivery as part of the business planning for SFT finance and investment."

David Lonsdale, CBI Scotland's assistant director, said he was unimpressed.

"While we want to see the maximum bang delivered for the taxpayer's buck, it's difficult at this point to see how these vague proposals will achieve this," he said.

"For one thing, it seems astonishing that none of the detail has so far been explored about how investment will be raised from the private sector. And the Scottish Government needs to be far clearer about what the incentives will be for firms looking to invest in our public services."

Michael Levack, from the Scottish Building Federation, said that there was too much delay and that he was concerned that nothing will be commissioned until 2009.

"If the delay goes on it is going to have an impact on the building trade because we need the volume of work," he said. "I was interested that the ministers were talking about huge profit margins for PPP, if we make 2 or 3 per cent we are doing extremely well.

"Whilst the building trade won't leave Scotland, the financing side may look elsewhere if there is too much delay."

The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla) took a cautious stance on the proposal.

Its president, Pat Watters, said:

"Having just had the detail presented to us we will now seek a local government reaction to what is being proposed. I have however had an assurance from the Cabinet Secretary that Cosla will be fully involved in any future discussions."

But a senior Cosla source told The Scotsman that as things stand the SFT proposal is "a joke" and it is unlikely that councils will be rushing to support the bonds issue.

However, there was some praise for the SFT.

Keith Patterson, a partner at the law firm Brodies, said: "This approach ensures investors a return on their investment but the capped return structure means it is not possible to make windfall profits, and this should be more acceptable to the public."

The greatest praise came from Professor John Kay, a Fellow of St John's College, Oxford, a Visiting Professor of Economics at the London School of Economics, and a member of the Council of Economic Advisers,

He said: "PFI is well past its sell-by date. The Scottish Futures Trust can achieve its three objectives of cheaper finance, better project management and the operation of infrastructure projects for the benefit of the people of Scotland."

SFT

So what's the difference between new and old?

DESPITE the SNP's original intention, the Scottish Futures Trust does not mean the end of public-private partnerships.

The SFT would be an arm's length company split in two and run by a board. The board would have a public sector wing for the delivery of projects and a private wing to raise finance.

The board would be chaired by the Finance Secretary, who would have primary responsibility to parliament on the issue. The reason an arm's length company is being created is to get round the borrowing limitations of the Scottish Government.

The SFT would act as a point of central expertise in Scotland and co-ordinate projects across the country. Councils or other public bodies would approach it for advice on how best to get a project off the ground.

The SFT would then suggest it took a not-for-profit model of the PPP, or get together with other councils to raise bonds to fund a series of similar projects, or find an alternative funding mechanism, possibly prudential borrowing from the public loans board.

The issue of bonds has caused some confusion because the original plan was for the SFT to raise Scottish Government bonds for all projects. However, the Scottish Government cannot raise bonds or take on debt under the terms of the Scotland Act.

The way round this is for councils with much needed projects grouping together and using their assets and revenue stream to raise money through bonds. Bonds give investors a guaranteed income and are seen as a safe investment, especially with councils, which are not allowed to go out of business.

The document says the SFT will not be able to finance projects itself until 2009-10.

One difference with PPP is that maintenance may now be carried out by the council instead of having that agreed as part of a scheme.

PPP

PUBLIC private partnerships, known more commonly as PPPs, were Labour's way of softening a financing scheme invented by the Conservatives.

The original concept was known as the private finance initiative (PFI). Both enabled a council, health board or other public authority to bring forward an infrastructure scheme, such as a road, school or hospital which needed to be built, but for which they did not have the money or the borrowing power.

They would ask consortiums of builders and financiers to make an offer to build and then maintain the project for between 20 and 30 years.

The public body would then commit itself to pay an annual sum to the consortium, and at the end of the period take ownership of the building. The problems arose because some councils were paying well over the odds for a project, partly because of hidden profit margins within the maintenance side.

The not-for-profit model was the latest PPP development to have an agreed profit margin before the project was started. However, even under this model, a school or hospital would be built for the cost of two.

Analysis

Not the big bang we need, but not a total damp squib


"THIS is not the big bang that we were hoping for and is clearly a watered down version of what the SNP had talked about previously," said John Watt, a partner in Government and Infrastructure Advisory at Grant Thornton, Scotland.

"Whilst this announcement is long-awaited and it's very interesting to see where the Scottish Government is going, it is clear that there is still much work to be done for the Scottish Futures Trust to deliver all that ministers are seeking to do.

"It is important that it facilitates a pipeline of projects in Scotland to be brought forward as soon as possible because we have already had a year's delay.

"We still need to see details on how private financing will be raised for projects and how they expect to deliver them. This is absolutely crucial to the whole concept being a success.

"There are schools projects in Moray, the Western Isles and Orkney which are going to be complicated and difficult to deliver and which the SFT is going to have to address.

"With this there is also a potential problem in the use of not for profit distribution (NPD) models which potentially reduces the amount of profit, especially in projects where there is a high degree of risk. Private sector investors may think, 'what is in this for me?'

"It is also clear that the SFT is going to have to start working very quickly.

"The government wants to spend £14 billion on infrastructure projects in three years and we have already had a year's delay waiting for details of the SFT. However, it is clear that a lot of work has been done on the business case for the SFT, which is good and there are many positive things in this document and the government is offering a new way forward.

"Whether it will succeed or not will depend on what the government brings forward in the coming weeks."







The full article contains 1912 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 May 2008 1:49 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Senga Jean,

21/05/2008 00:09:37
Scotsman! Your language is too sensationalist for a serious subject. You should be laying out the facts dispassionately and even have an intelligent analyst comment. What do you do? Allow the venting of bile by political hacks. If it IS just PPP lite that alone will satisfy my wish to end crazy profiteering. The SNP is the only party to attempt fair and reasonable public spending. I support them.
2

Senga Jean,

21/05/2008 00:16:04
Oh yes. AND if they lack the powers under the current arrangements.? Just scrap the Scotland Act and give us INDEPENDENCE.
3

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 21/05/2008 00:25:48
The SNP never said there would be no private money. How could they when the Scottish Government can't borrow money? It's SFT until independence. As reported in the Times yesterday Scotland will then be in such surplus we could build everything we wanted without borrowing a penny.
4

truthsleuth,

21/05/2008 00:31:16
Agnes
Its clear where your politics lie.
The SNP have been just as bad if not worse than the other political parties
When given the chance to go full tilt for independance by Wendy they tucked their tails between their legs and ran for cover.
open your eyes the pillars of the Second Forth Road bridge will be missed only by the petrol heads
It is no flagship just another failed icon.
5

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 00:39:26
4
Do you mean the referendum that Wendy offered?And was slapped down by Broon?
So just who ran for cover?
6

Canadian Jambo,

21/05/2008 01:06:38
I'm sure it is all Broon's fault.
7

,

21/05/2008 01:07:00
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8

,

21/05/2008 01:15:59
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9

,

21/05/2008 01:18:05
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10

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:24:14
7 8 9
;-) Paul Grice. Have you heard of him?
11

,

21/05/2008 01:28:12
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12

,

21/05/2008 01:32:49
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13

An Beal Bacht,

21/05/2008 01:42:29
The Scottish Government is not allowed to raise money? But they're allowed to go into debt to speculators through PPP/PFI? Great system. Our government seems to be doing not so bad fighting all those unionist parties as well as Westmin with their hands tied behind their backs.

Where's Wendy BTW? Still in hiding?
14

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:47:08
13
Do you mean vacuous stuff? Vicious? Viscous?
All seem to apply.
15

,

21/05/2008 01:48:27
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16

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:50:46
17
Ahh.Me thick.Cut and paste old posts.
Reminds me of AM2...
17

,

21/05/2008 01:51:47
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18

,

21/05/2008 01:59:31
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19

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:59:58
19
Got a Volkswagen for sale?
Or even a Citroen Traction Avant?
20

Royster,

21/05/2008 02:24:47
It's a failed document. There's a credit crunch. Most lenders want a straight-forward government guarantees not securitised debt in the form of revenue streams from councils. The SNP, as usual, is so far behind the curve.
21

S'me,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 02:59:25
blah blah blah.. The SNP activists are on the case so boring.
22

donald,

glasgow 21/05/2008 04:24:45
Labour lackeys have no ambition for Scotland
23

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 21/05/2008 05:54:07
If folks are looking for money why don't we do what Labour enjoy doing? ie robbing the tax payers who can least afford it.

Could we just try Independence? You know, take it out for a few years, see if it matches any other country, see if it meets our needs.

The only way we are going to get it is through a violent and bloody revolution. If Alec has no objections, I'll take care of the military side of things.

Anyone want to give me a hand?

I'll start with the liberals and the pc brigade. I promise to show no mercy as I wipe them off the face of the earth. The English electorate will get rid of Gordon Brown for us and the first person they elect to replace him, I'll do them as well.

I'm open to suggestions on how to do this properly.

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki Jnr
24

Royster,

21/05/2008 06:33:04
It's typical SNP. Promising something for nothing and guess what? It doesn't work. Who is going to invest in something if they don't get an adequate return? If money doesn't come from the private sector, it has to come from the public sector which means less money in taxpayers' pockets and all the inefficiencies associated with bureaucracy. Real back of an envelope stuff from the SNP.
25

morris,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 06:38:41
4
The SNP have a manifesto committment to a referendum in 2010.They were elected on that basis.They intend to hold it. End of Deabate.
The person who is "delaying/refusing" a referendum is Gordon Brown!Wendy wanted to "bring it on".Its labour who cannot agree with Labour and you have to be pretty dense to not realise it!As the SNP continues in office their popularity grows,and 2010 would appear to be a sensible choice.It surely makes sense to have as much information on the performance of an SNP administration as possible before we commit to one in perpetuity,or is common sense beyond your imagination?

Labour will not be returned to office in Scotland until they grow up and behave like a party of governmnent. At the moment the Holyrood contingent are an embarrassment and you have to be pretty one party state minded to fail to realise this.
26

morris,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 06:47:56
33
The SNP work within the confines of Westminsters finances,that and being a minority government (as you are well aware)!
Under those circumstances they have actually achieved more than Labour/lib Dem managed in eight years.Those are the facts and the opinion polls show it.In the latest poll (a small sample taken in Scotland I agree)Labour finished below the Conservatives ! Who would ever have thought that possible ten years ago?Labour are a spent force with no leader in Scotland and no contenders either. A bunch of muppets who are out of their depth and it shows.
If Wendy Jackie Bailiie and Margaret Curran are considered to be talented then forget the Labour Party because they will destroy themselves.They are already on their way !
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/05/2008 07:17:47
#34 Morris.

Wrong. The SNP IS delaying the referendum-until 2010. An indicative one could be held next week. Not that I blame them; they can keep snouts in trough until then whilst hoping (with some success admittedly) that rival parties will fail to impress.

As oil is a finite resource, (that is, capital/the family jewels), one hopes that it is invested in infrastructure and education, etc; and not dissipated in tax cuts, yet higher rewards to the work shy, and white elephants such as the Forth RB, Holyrood and nuclear power.

I hope King Alexander the Podgy will take this telling.

Scots must learn to live off income and earnings; that is renewable energy, innovation and invention and plain old fashioned hard work.
28

Claire22,

21/05/2008 07:31:52
"SNP Funding Plan" - well there's an oxymoron.

There never was a plan, they have not said and are still not saying exactly how the money would be raised.

29

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 07:34:43
Ahhh... so, 'not for profit' really means that profits are fixed, like 'at cost + 10%'. Why the double-speak?

I may be wrong, but I suspect that Centralised State Planning mentioned in the article will not really produce better value for money...
30

bring them on,

21/05/2008 07:38:13
It's a disgrace, it really is.
31

,

21/05/2008 07:38:37
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32

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 07:39:07
...Meanwhile, the cost of a new Forth road bridge escalates...... Dither... Dither... Dither...
33

bring them on,

21/05/2008 07:48:30
They should make more movies in Scotland, and create jobs
34

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 07:59:11
Just another piece of Labour party propaganda wrapped up as a news story. I aint participating in any mair o this nonsence so this will be my only post on the matter. Its just troll feed. The real story will be told at the next election.
35

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:05:00
37 Claire

As you can see from the article we unionist always welcome and thrive on negativity and your posting is a tremendous asset in that direction.

Perhaps you can enlarge on your posting by pointing out the advantages in lucrative profits that our big business friends can gain from PFI?

The nats will, no doubt, respond with examples of enormous profits, at the tax-payers' expense, being made through PFI but we will counter these with our usual negativity.
36

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 21/05/2008 08:07:54
SNP = Tartan Tories = cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts.

Well done all you "Braveheart" voters!
37

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 08:10:37
Andy Kerr should hang his head in shame.The horrendous costs of PFI (an acronym for pay for ever) has well documented recently.It is vital for future generations that an alternative way of building schools and hospitals is found.Id SFI is cheaperr and does result in better project management then lets give it a try.

38

Phillip,

21/05/2008 08:13:40
Let me get this straight. The SNP is trying to stop private corporations from making grossly overinflated profits on public projects. The Unionist parties who get the largest campaign donations from those same corporations are attacking the plan as being useless, impossible, and underfunded. While professional economists who won't lose money either way see merit in the plan.

Who's Against the Plan:
- Big Corporations
- Unionist Parties

Who's For the Plan:
- SNP minority government
- Independent economists

Potential Losers:
- Big Corporations
- Unionist Politicians & Parties who get donations from those Big Corporations and who are essentially bought and paid for by those corporations

Potential Winners:
- Scottish taxpayers who see less of their hard earned money wasted making rich Corporate executives richer & corrupt politicians even more corrupt

Seems like the ones spouting off about what a horrible idea this is are the exact same ones who will lose the most money.

Yet another example of the SNP being on the side of the Scottish people and the Unionist Parties (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems) taking orders from their London & Corporate Masters.

And I find the comment about no Councils signing up for the municipal bonds plan rather humerous. So none of those Labour dominated councils are willing to take part in a plan that will provide them with better infrastructure investmet? Could it be because their Masters won't let them so that they can force the bond plan to fail?

It's time for Independence and time for all the Labour, Tory & LibDem criminals to be booted from office.
39

bring them on,

21/05/2008 08:15:46
I remember when all of the SNP candidates were plump ex-primary school teachers with tweed skirts.

At least in those days you knew what you were letting yourself in for.
40

A Crofter,

Western Isles 21/05/2008 08:17:59
Tried to watch this mindnumbingly-boring beancounter explain this tosh on Newsnight - went to watch the paint drying instead!

No wonder the SNP almost disappeared without trace under his leadership.
41

thinking,

Scotland 21/05/2008 08:19:47
It would appear that the original PF would have worked if the government had people responsible for it who understood business and had ensured there were no 'hidden or extra' charges to bump Company profits at taxpayers expense. Buildings and roads have to be maintained so it doesn't matter who is paid for it as long as it is a reasonable price. Usually there is a choice between inefficient, unaccountable government run departments or efficient but profit making private companies.
Unfortunately, most MPs/MSPs have little or no experience outside university and politics, hence the astonishing costs and poor quality of projects such as the Scottish Government Building
42

Jock 1O7,

21/05/2008 08:30:56
47 Phillip

I couldn't imagine that the SNP are in the pockets of wealthy businessfolk.

Mind you, if you were an obscenely wealthy businessman, hoping for favours from the corruptible, who would you choose? Some might say the SNP, who, in their desperation would drop their tartan trews for a whiff of cash. But of course they wouldn't stoop so low, for they can do no wrong.
43

brownlie,

Scalpay 21/05/2008 08:34:59
49 A crofter

Quite right, a charaid, the person in charge of our economy should be witty, gregarious, possibly with an alcohol-fuelled red nose, and a bit zany - like our George Foulkes, for example.
44

bring them on,

21/05/2008 08:35:05
I like the SNP badges that they give away around election time.

They always come up with a new one every time, and some of the slogans are magic.
45

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:37:56
51 Jock

Quite right, the SNP should drop their tartan trews and, in an attempt to be trendy, wear pin-striped kilts instead.
46

Jings Crivens,

21/05/2008 08:41:47
The devil is in the detail and that is where Cavalier Salmond and gang always fall down.

Looks like yet another broken SNP promise, still no surprise there.
47

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 21/05/2008 08:43:37
Great idea. Pity about the implementation.
48

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:45:45
53 bto

SNP research has shown that these badges appeal to little children.
49

Edward,

21/05/2008 08:49:08
#28 S'me,Edinburgh
#29 Bob10
#33 Royster
#36 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation
#37 Claire22
#38 The Tin Man,Over the Rainbow
#45 Jam Tarts 1874
#49 A Crofter,Western Isles
#51 Jock 1O7

All the usual suspects,perhaps the same person , who knows (somebody does)
All these unioists should really get it into there heads, that the SNP Government are trying to bring on an alternative to PPP/PFI
PPP/PFI has been shown clearly to be a complete swindle
as you would have seen in the weekends Sunday Herald (strange that there was many of you commenting in the Sunday Herald)
The proposal by the SNP Government does actually work.
Its the prefered method that the State of California uses. Its the method that the Canadian Government uses
But because its being proposed here by the SNP Government, somehow you think its wrong. But then again those above are all Labour supporters, some dont actually live in Scotland.
With the Scottish Futures Trust, like the Canadian Government and the State of California, it will be the public wallet that will benefit

50

bring them on,

21/05/2008 08:50:08
I think that SNP should go for the wee name change.

This one is getting old.
51

Edward,

21/05/2008 08:52:10
#55 Jock 1O7
Yet another Labour poster, how is life in Labour these days?
You even quote the rather crap and inacurate Labour mantra, how sad
Never mind Labour will be beaten on Thursday and come the next General election they will be trounced
No amount of spin will save Labour
52

bring them on,

21/05/2008 08:56:48
#60

King

Are you the guy with the cars for sale?
53

'smise,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:06:27
Why is your journalism so biased? John Swinney gave a reasonable explanation of this subject to Gordon Brewer on last night's Newsnight Scotland. Other newspapers can provide a balanced view. To get some accuracy, I will check out these newspapers in the local library and change my allegiance.
54

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 09:07:34
#46 Soumi

SFI dosn't even exist, yet, so it is a little presumtuous to state that it would be cheaper than existing mechanisms. I am not sure exactly what the difference is between PPP and SFI, anyway, excepting that one has been put into hibernation , and the other hasn't been started.
55

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 09:09:41
#50 Thinking

Exactly... nothing will change.
56

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:12:50
There is the genuine Unionist,

these are good folks that we fact filled and enlightened really rip our hair out over,

and then,

there is the habitual Labour voter whom uses an instinct and intellect akin to an Afghan goat tied up to an old wrecked soviet tank with one leg shot off!
57

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 09:13:08
The attitudes of some people towards the attempt to devise a less expensive alternative to the discredited PFI (pay for ever)is interesting.Are they suggesting that we continue to use PFI to build hospitals and schools? If so why,and if not,what do they propose as an alternative?

This topic is too serious to waste time on party political politics.I think that this article is shallow,since it does not examine the problems with PFI and the rationale for change in any depth.It is heavily loaded with comments from individuals who (for their own reasons)are oppossed to SFI,and only includes a quote from one supporter of SFI.It includes comments from opposition MSP's,but none from the government side.Most importantly,it does not contain any detailed examination of the merits of alternative ways of funding building programmes.The public need information ,not rhetoric.Irrespective of who we vote for,we can make our own conclusions,based on accurate information.In that sense this article has let the public down.
58

bring them on,

21/05/2008 09:13:23
#62

Don't forget to put on your 100% acrylic poloneck
59

Alasdair,

21/05/2008 09:14:34
I see the Scotsman's approach to balanced jounalism remains somewhat unique.

No wonder its readership is the fastet falling of any newspaper.
60

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 09:15:22
Maybe someone can enlighten me as to the difference between the SFI proposal, and PPP? Don't they both guarantee fixed profits for the contractors? Aren't they both administered by the same people? What's teh difference? Is it the idea of cheaper loans being made available to the contractors? Please explain...
61

kimba,

21/05/2008 09:15:42
Typical salmond,all talk and no substance!
62

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 09:16:50
#66 Suomi

How does SFI work? What is the plan?
63

Jock 1O7,

21/05/2008 09:20:16
60 Ed

Ahh! I see what you've done - because you believe I don't agree with you, I must be a labour/unionist.

I think I need to get up very early in the morning to pull one over on you, such a bucketful of astute reasoning that you are ;-))

Or maybe I'm just a bit skeptical of the unquestioning devotion to the SNP and its emperor.
64

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:28:16
THE LABOUR YEARS

WARS THAT CANNOT BE PAID FOR

TROOPS IN HARMS WAY DUE TO NO/LACK OF EQUIPMENT

PRESIDING OVER A CIVIL SERVICE ATTITUDE OF COULD'NT GIVE A *UCK

PFI FOR OUR CHILDREN TO PAY FOR WHILE WE ARE ROBBED

GLOBALLY UNIQUE UNDERSTANDING OF A NATIONS SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO DECIDE ITS OWN FUTURE

LEADING THE WORLD IN THE MORAL BANKRUPTCY OF ITS CORE PRINCIPAL, SOCIALISM

and we barely scratch the paint!
65

Auckland Arab2,

21/05/2008 09:29:22
PPP has been good enough for Gordon Brown for 10 years and Scottish Labour for 8! For a Labour spokesman to now cry foul is lamentable - PPP is YOUR policy.
66

Publius,

London 21/05/2008 09:30:29
#71 Tin Man.
As you suspect there is no plan. SFT is vague. There is no evidence that it will be cheaper than PFI.
PFI, SFT and all similar schemes are wrong. The flaws are obvious:
(1) The only revenue stream is the public purse. Schools, hospitals etc do not have revenue streams of their own.
(2) The taxpayer is committed to paying for PFI, SFI etc for as much as 30 years. (a) This means that the national debt rises but it does not appear on the balance sheet - an accountancy fiddle. (b) The government cannot pay the debt off early or pay off the debt with the highest interest rates first.
(3)If need changes or the buildings get out of date early, the government cannot sell them off and recover the costs.
(4) The only scope for direct private provision of public services is for services which can have their own revenue stream. Examples are student residences, toll roads and bridges, swimming pools. In all these the user pays the provider directly.
67

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:31:35
To vote for Labour in Scotland,

you need to speak to a psychiatrist.
68

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:36:42
Agreed Publius from London,

however we need 84% min. of Oil and Gas revenue to start life over,

and you to be happier in the same stroke,

will be rid of all those useless Labour Scotsmen lording it over you.

I assume we both can't wait for the happy day?
69

Arfur,

21/05/2008 09:36:45
#36 Rulesbutnotrulers - how can you not get this through your thick head?........maybe its because you back Labour and nothing of any substance has actually come to frutition from them.

A party come up with this thing called a manifesto....ok

This manifesto is what they will attempt to cover over the next 4 years......still with me?

SNP put a peldge of a referendum in 2010....i havn't lost you yet have I?

The Scottish people voted the SNP into power based on many things including that manifesto....stop banging that bone on the floor.

Just because Labour think its in their best interests for a referendum to be earlier, SNP do not need to change a thing. You like your tin pot Labour party are like little children....they wont change the date mummy!

Shove off and wait for 2010, then have your minority say.
70

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:39:18
LABOUR DINOSAURS
COMING TO A THEME PARK
NEAR YOU
71

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/05/2008 09:40:32
SO the SNP try to come up with a system that is better and all the opposion can do is try and smear, what a sad country.
72

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 09:42:51
PFI - Profiteering Factored In

PPP - Perfected Profiteering Plan

SFT - Saner Financial Targetting
73

bring them on,

21/05/2008 09:45:17
I would like to see the full manifesto before deciding
74

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:49:21
as the tin gets rattled down Kirkcaldy high street,

folk wonder what their collecting for,

Gordon Brown's lost deposit.
75

BIG EYE,

Paisley 21/05/2008 09:51:35
Now for a reality check.

1.What the SNP are trying to do is to introduce a method of financing public projects with a cap on the level of profits that the private sector can manage. Is this wrong? Yes/NO

2. They are also trying to build an experienced central team of experts, who will look at potential building contracts and servicing contracts to ensure complete value for money for the taxpayer. Is this a bad idea? Yes/NO

3. They are doing this because they believe that the current system of PFI and PPP has resulted in massive profits for the private sector and a very poor return for the public purse. Are the wrong in thinking this YES/NO

4. They would like to do more but are restricted because Westminster is withholding powers that would allow them to issue the bonds as a Government. Should they just give up because of this London obstacle YES/NO

5. Is it realistic or reasonable to judge reaction to the plans based on comments from banks and organisations like the CBI whose members and clients have been at the forefront on the great PFI/PPP rip off and who face the prospect of the SNP scheme greatly reducing these profits? YES/NO

My answer to every question is a No and therefore, knowing that this type of scheme has been very successful elsewhere, particularly in the USA I welcome yet another example of the SNP taking action to resolve Scotland's problems.

Alex Salmond is playing a very clever game here, he knows PFI/PPP was a rip off and he knows he is guaranteed a knee jerk reaction against anything the SNP introduces from Labour and the Liberals. He also knows that at the next election he will be able to demonstrate that the Futures Trust will have delivered better value to the taxpayer than PFI/PPP.

What will Wendy's successor say then?
76

HughB,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:53:22
As the money that Westminster is making from Scottish oil is increasing as the price of oil increases, then Scotland should be getting a much bigger financial settlement each year.

Forget about Barnett. That was just devised to try and show that we were getting more than England, while England is getting all our oil money.

Westminster, you had better stump up now, or the union will break up sooner than you think.
77

Doh,

21/05/2008 09:56:17
#81 Frank

I wish all the SNP supporters would drop the blinkers

PFI = PPP = SFT

Any private investor will want to make a profit on their investment regardless of what you call it.

This is just spin sadly.
78

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:58:00
What will that most independent of Kingdoms do?

It will show the rest of the nation the metal that Fifers are made of!

Because they fine well know the lies of this government,
and this government knows that the contracts for the 'Carriers' will be pulled South within 30 seconds of David Cameron arriving in Downing Street.

Des Browne can B*UGGAR-OFF
79

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:58:47
SNP what a joke. If ever there was a point when you have to question their ability to govern it must be now. Bunch of amateurs.

80

brownlie,

21/05/2008 10:02:12
88 sonof

Just as the sun was setting over the British empire a saviour emerges out of the deepening shadows in the form of sonofhamish. Your contribution is welcome and will no doubt save our glorious union.
81

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:05:01
#84,Big Eye,

He'll say--------burp, then fall over whilst trying to grapple an old woman and policemen at the same time.

I honestly believe that Labour could at this juncture, incredibly, could promote Von the Baron Foulkes.
82

Ugly George,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:05:56
85 Hugh B
Have you studied any projection of North sea oil production over the coming years. The level of production has declined by more that 50% in the last few years and the decline is projected to continue.
One of the reasons for the rise in prices has been the fall in production from the North sea (including the Norwegian sector)
83

bring them on,

21/05/2008 10:06:16
How do you get to be a politican?
84

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:06:55
I cannot believe that any of the literate Unionists here could vote Labour?
85

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:10:21
#91 Ugly George,

this 50% reduction does not include the West of Shetland, and far more interestingly,

THE GREEN BANKS

I assume?
86

John PM,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:11:38
The real problem was the PFI scheme which was storing up future generations of colossal debt for the taxpayer as recently exposed by an investigation by the Sunday Herald. The SNP's scheme could work and will ultimately be much better value for money despite the squawks of vested interests and papers like the Scotsman which were always going to decry it for their own purposes.
87

Alan B,

21/05/2008 10:11:39
#HughB i agree with u about th reasons for barnett. It was a way of trying to get scotland to donate most of its oil wealth away. It was actually a very nasty deception given the economic problems we had in the 70s/80s.

#BIG EYE
I think there is an issue here. Labour slag of the tories for PFI and then when in power adopt a very similar policy and rebrand it PFI. The snp have effectively done the same thing. They slagged of PPP and then will adopt a policy very similar rebranded again.

Yes labour was incompetent (if not corrupt) in writing up contracts for PPP and it was a rip off from the public purse.

Without power for the sp to be able to borrow. Then if u want to invest in capital projects at levels greater than is affordable out of the yr on yr budget u have no option to go to the private sector for finance. Abit like us getting mortgages etc.

I do think there are democractic issues at stake with governments choosing to pay off projects over a long time, in that they commit future governments to pay for projects that they would rather spend on other things. As such a balance has to be struck.

88

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:13:45
Point of Note:

It would be very interesting to know what deal has been offered to Oil Companies post Independence.

Now thats what I call the end of the Union!
89

Miss H,

21/05/2008 10:14:48
Worth re-stating what the SNP manifesto said.

We also propose a new system of infrastructure funding as an alternative to the costly and flawed PFI/PPP. Over the first term of an SNP government we will introduce a not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust, which will provide lower cost borrowing opportunities. We expect the Scottish Futures Trust to emerge as a more attractive source of funding for both national and local projects which will effectively crowd out PFI/PPP over time. Current PFI/PPP contracts will be unaffected and it will be open to local authorities and other public bodies to choose between PFI/PPP and Scottish Futures Bonds for planned and future projects. In particular, we will match brick for brick current plans for improvements in our schools and hospitals.

What is interesting here is the attitude of the unions. They hate PFI/PPP but you still see union leaders attacking the SNP for putting forward the only real alternative possible within the constraints of devolution.

In an independent Scotland things would of course be different. But Unison is against independence.

This argument is just going to run and run and I think we can all guess where it is headed..

As for Labour, the political stupidity of positioning themselves as the champions of PPP/PFI defies belief. It is Labour supporters who are most opposed to it. Madness still reigns!

90

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:17:55
Say what you like, three cheers to the Scotsman,

for free DEBATE
91

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:19:38
84 glasbenmhor
The 50% reduction is the reduction in total production including the fields west of Shetland.

Total production of oil (as opposed to gas) reached 2.9m barrels/day in 1999/2000. The latest month for which figures are available (Jan 2008)shows production of 1.36m Barrels/day.
92

bring them on,

21/05/2008 10:21:26
This is all confusing to me.

I thought you just voted for the person with the sincerest cheeky smile, and smartly polished Italian shoes
93

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 10:22:31
Now for a reality check.

1.What the SNP are trying to do is to introduce a method of financing public projects with a cap on the level of profits that the private sector can manage. Is this wrong? Yes/NO

This is also done with PPP.

2. They are also trying to build an experienced central team of experts, who will look at potential building contracts and servicing contracts to ensure complete value for money for the taxpayer. Is this a bad idea? Yes/NO

Good luck to them, will these people be in addition to the people who currently negociate and administer contracts?

3. They are doing this because they believe that the current system of PFI and PPP has resulted in massive profits for the private sector and a very poor return for the public purse. Are the wrong in thinking this YES/NO

Some PPPs delived good value, others don't - see 1. & 2.

4. They would like to do more but are restricted because Westminster is withholding powers that would allow them to issue the bonds as a Government. Should they just give up because of this London obstacle YES/NO

Read the article.

5. Is it realistic or reasonable to judge reaction to the plans based on comments from banks and organisations like the CBI whose members and clients have been at the forefront on the great PFI/PPP rip off and who face the prospect of the SNP scheme greatly reducing these profits? YES/NO

See 1.

My answer to every question is a No and therefore, knowing that this type of scheme has been very successful elsewhere, particularly in the USA I welcome yet another example of the SNP taking action to resolve Scotland's problems.

I vote for the SNP, however, you merely rubber-stamp them.

Alex Salmond is playing a very clever game here, he knows PFI/PPP was a rip off and he knows he is guaranteed a knee jerk reaction against anything the SNP introduces from Labour and the Liberals. He also knows that at the next election he will be able to demonstrate that the Futures Tr
94

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 10:22:55
I applaud the SNP for its radical thinking. Its idea is doomed to fail but at least it had an idea.
95

Alan B,

21/05/2008 10:23:11
#Miss H

I agree with u regarding the constraints of devolution, as it prevents the scottish government from borrowing.

However

"Over the first term of an SNP government we will introduce a not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust"

Quite simply the snp plan is to get finance from the private sector. The private sector will not lend without making a profit. As such the quote u put above will be false.

From what i gathered from John Swinney on newsnight last night he was talking about a model where it would prevent windfall profits. Not that there would be not profits for the private sector.

96

W U Merchant,

21/05/2008 10:24:40
102

TTM, so many words, so little substance. As Alex's neocon pals say, "stick to the knitting".