Scottish independence: 60,000 from EU get vote on Scots split
David Mundell told MPs that 58,004 EU residents are eligible to vote on Scottish independence. Picture: Robert Perry
ALMOST 60,000 EU nationals living in Scotland will be allowed to vote on Scottish independence, the UK Government has revealed.
Scotland Office minister David Mundell has told MPs that 58,004 residents from European Union nations are eligible to take part in the ballot due to take place in 2014.
The disclosure has renewed the controversy over which groups can take part in the referendum when Scots living in the rest of the UK or in other countries will be denied a vote under current rules. It led to new demands yesterday for the franchise to at least be extended to the estimated 750,000 Scots living south of the Border and for UK voting rules to be adopted.
The SNP government proposes that the vote should be open to British and Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland and armed forces or civil service personnel serving in the UK or overseas.
But its referendum consultation document published last month also states that citizens of EU countries resident in Scotland should also be allowed to participate, a category that is denied a vote in UK general elections.
The Scottish Government has adopted that approach on the basis that it was the format used when Scotland went to the polls in 1997 for the devolution referendum.
It calculates that under these rules 3.99 million people will be eligible and it is currently trying to extend the franchise to around 125,000 16-to-17-year-olds.
However, some politicians believe a more appropriate model would be the franchise used for Westminster elections.
Under that model, British citizens living overseas can vote in UK parliamentary elections for up to 15 years in the constituency they were registered in before leaving the UK. Approving a similar approach for the independence referendum would enable those Scots, who have moved to other parts of the UK in the last 15 years, a chance to vote.
EU nationals living in Scotland who want to vote must first register with the Electoral Commission. The number currently eligible was revealed by a parliamentary question submitted to Mundell by Labour MP Thomas Docherty. Yesterday, Docherty questioned why a “French student studying for a year at Edinburgh University” would be allowed to vote when someone born in Scotland but now living elsewhere in the UK could not.
“It seems to me to be wrong that we could end up with this situation,” Docherty said. “I think the issue of the franchise needs to be looked at carefully and reconsidered.”
David McLetchie, the Conservatives’ constitution spokesman, said: “This is an anomaly. If one used the franchise that was used for the UK parliamentary elections then the EU nationals would not be able to vote, but certain ex-pats would. So there is an argument that the referendum should be conducted under the UK parliamentary franchise and that would deal with both these anomalies.”
“James Wallace, a Dumfries-born law graduate who is about to start a career in London, is campaigning for Scots based elsewhere in the UK to be given a vote.
He said: “I would not want to deny European Union nationals the vote. But we should be allowing Scots like me to vote under the 15-year rule.”
“It is difficult to argue that someone who just moves to Scotland is a greater part of ‘the Scottish people’ when they would never describe themselves as Scottish, yet individuals whose entire life has revolved around the country and are away developing knowledge to bring back to the nation they call home are denied a vote on something so fundamental as independence.”
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Comments
There are 617 comments to this article
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Dave C.
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 09:24 PMFunny! 609 assumes all those 60,000 immigrants would vote against independence, while 605 assumes they would all vote for. The truth is, most of them won’t vote, and the ones who do vote will probably divide along much the same lines as native-born Scots. As for all those 16 to 18 year olds, the chances are many of them won’t vote at all, and the ones who do will be divided. Yes, there is going to be a massive victory for independence in the referendum; but it won’t come from the immigrants, and it won’t come from the 16-or-17-year-olds. The truth is their infuence will be marginal.
Dave C.
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 09:12 PMStrange isn't it - the political parties which were quite happy to conduct referendums in 1975, 1979, 1997, and 2011, under the residency requirement rules, now want to (very selectively) change those rules for a referendum on independence. This is what is known as moving the goalposts because you're afraid the other team is going to win.
Dave C.
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 09:05 PMNo, 609, ATG73, the fate of this nation should be determined by the people who live in it. Okay, so some of these people came from other places. So what? The Stuarts came from Brittany, the Bruces came from Normandy, and as for the Scots, well, the one thing that is certain is they didn’t come from Scotland. Robert the Bruce, as Earl of Huntingdon, owned more land in England than anybody else except King Edward himself. There have always been incomers, and some of them have played a vital role in Scotland’s history. You are wrong to assume immigrants don’t care about Scotland, and you are wrong to assume they will all vote against independence. Mind you, the chances are most of those 60,000 won’t vote at all. For the same reason my good friend from France decided she shouldn’t vote in 1997. This whole business is a storm in a teacup.
chicmac
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 08:54 PMThe 'logic' behind the suggestion to include only ex-pats in England is absolutely flawed and no fair assessor of that scenario could conclude that it serves the principle of self-determination. For example, if those who have chosen to live in England are persuaded that Scotland contributes a surplus to the UK treasury, a key element in the campaign, a prime goal of the pro-independence lobby because it is a factor which would convince many to vote Yes in Scotland, those residing in England would be financially motivated to vote no!. It is a complete farce.
chicmac
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 08:47 PMSo now it is proposed we have a 'West Riding question'. Why should someone born in Scotland but brought up in Yorkshire with no intention of moving to Scotland and little or no knowledge of Scottish politics have a say in the biggest effect on Scotland's future ever?
Dave C.
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 08:46 PM610, Mr A, your son is right. At the time of the 1979 referendum on a Scottish Assembly, I was living and working in London, so I didn’t get a vote. And it was RIGHT that I didn’t get a vote. The folk who live in Scotland should have a vote, wherever they came from; and the folk who don’t live in Scotland should not have a vote, regardless of where they came from.
Dave C.
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 06:08 PMDuring the 1997 referendum on a Scottish Parliament, I asked a good friend of mine how she intended to vote. She said she wouldn’t be voting. Okay, says I, so you’re a citizen of France, but you are totally committed to Scotland, you’re permanently settled here, and you only go back to France for occasional visits. Yes, says she, but I think this is a matter for the Scots to decide. Hopefully, by the time of the independence referendum, after another 17 years of living, working, and raising her children in Scotland, she will feel she really does have the right to vote.
Mr.A
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 03:31 PMMy youngest son lives in Cheltenham with his wife and two young son's. I asked him how he felt about not having a vote on the independance issue. He said that he was living in England and did not hear much about the debate on Independance. He said that he felt it would not be right for him to have a vote on a subject he knew little about. At general elections, he said, he could only vote for the MP for his area not for the one from his town of birth in Scotland so whats the difference. The one thing he did stress was the anti Scottish feeling that is going around all over England. Apparently some of the leading papers are printing very anti Scottish letters......I agree with my son on this matter.
ATG73
Monday, February 6, 2012 at 02:00 AMMakes me sick in the pit of my stomach. The fate of this nation should be determined by SCOTS not eastern european refugees who have no clue about Scottish history, culture or what it means to be Scottish. Sorry its our country, not theirs. They have to no right to determine the fate of our nation. They should count themselves lucky to even be here at all. They will all vote to remain with England as all they care about is a bigger pay packet than they get in Eastern Europe and could not care less about the Scottish nation. As soon as we get control of our country and therefor immigration policy can we please end the agreement to allow Eastern Europeans to work here (Romanians are curiously enough already barred-why them and not Poles I wonder?). Can we please stop importing other countries problems and taking jobs and livelihoods away from OUR OWN PEOPLE to feed eastern refugees please?
Anagach
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 11:50 PM596 Buford Van Stomm this land deserves the snp if the electorate are even half as thick as the independence supporters posting here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This land has the SNP in case you missed the last election. You will win lots of friends by calling people thick. Have you got an arguement why Scotland is different from all the other countries that have or are seeking Independence - or just happy to get the odd insult in.
Ford Transit
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 11:41 PMThe quality of this debate hasn't improved over the last six years I've been lurking and posting. Most of the scribes here behave like Old Firm fans. Blind dogma and tribalism is no way to decide Scotland's future ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Credible, open and honest leadership is an semingly elusive concept as far as the electors' representatives who enjoy lavish lifestyles through their privileged positions in the Holyrood building are concerned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are entitled to more a better information ahead of the 2014 ballot.
Col.Blimp III
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 10:08 PM600 Danielrober2 ▬ "750,000 Scots [who have not migrated]" ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, If they have not migrated, they will have an address in Scotland and will be registered to vote here. Therefore they will get a vote. ,,,,,,,,,,,,, If they have migrated to another part of the UK they will have a vote in the place they live. You CANNOT be registered as a voter in two different UK locations.
Scotindy
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 09:19 PMThe 60000 extra voters from the EU and the 16 year olds will almost certainly tipp the balance to a LANDSLIDE VICTORY for those wishing to DECLARE INDEPENDENCE FROM england. That is what london is SCARED OFF, they are not bothered about DEMOCRACY give me a break here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anagach
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 09:05 PM600 Danielrober2 750,000 Scots [who have not migrated] can have no say in the fate of their country. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are they still in Scotland ?.
Cagey
Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 08:48 PMbannerfield- In the USA they have 2 chambers The House of representatives based on population and The Senate which has 2 senators per state. The capital is Washington which us not a part of any state and is geographically about halfway down the Eastern seaboard where all the original 13 states were. In the UK we have 2 chambers one based on population. Scotland's share being regularly reduced as our relative population falls due to lack of economic success, the other based on appointment, previously privilege. The capital is based in the South of the largest state, just about as far away as possible from the 3 other states. We are certainly not like the USA. They have safeguards built into their system to protect the smaller states. We have none, and it shows.
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