'Scotland is a belief - it's a feeling'

Published on Saturday 24 February 2007 00:24

A WELL-INFORMED audience of almost 150 played a big part in another successful nationhood debate in Cupar, Fife. In a wide-ranging discussion, chaired in feisty fashion by Lesley Riddoch, Scotland's former first minister Henry McLeish outlined a vision of an evolving Union, as an alternative to the status quo or independence.

Mr McLeish was one of four Fifers on the panel, along with MSPs Ted Brocklebank (Conservative) Tricia Marwick (SNP) and Iain Smith (Liberal Democrat). Brian Monteith, the Conservative MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife (but not a Fifer) completed the panel. This is a flavour of proceedings.

Q: What does Scotland mean to you in 2007?

TB: Scotland is an emotional and a physical experience. It gives me a sense of pride that people from this remarkable country have achieved remarkable things across the world. Scotland is at its best when looking outwards. We are at our worst when we look inwards. As Dougie McLean said: "Caledonia, you mean everything, you are part of me."

TM: I was five when I realised I was Scottish. My dad was Irish and at great pains to say we were Irish too. We made it clear we were born in Scotland and we were Scots. Scotland is a belief; it's a feeling; it's about knowing where we are. We are a welcoming and inclusive nation and have gone all over the world to create nations, especially the United States. We have opportunities over the next few years to take the next step - become a new independent nation.

HM: I suppose Scotland is a feeling of pride; it's an emotional thing but we also need to be hard-headed. There are parts of our culture we need to change. Internationalism is an area where I feel Scotland can gain great respect. I'm Scottish, I'm British, I'm European - that's the sort of confidence we should have as individual Scots.

BM: It means home, not just because I live here and was born and raised here. I have worked abroad and when we do that, we become more Scottish; we look for pubs selling Scottish beer, seek out mince pies and haggis. In Taiwan I found a chip shop called The Frying Scotsman. Scots also have great attributes - strength through adversity, an inquiring mind and the fact we are non-conformist; we are always asking questions. .

IS: I am not a Scot, I am a Fifer - and very privileged and honoured to represent this part of the world. I was involved in judging a school competition, and children see the dynamic Scotland of the future, an outward-looking place. Scotland has a great deal to offer, has offered a lot and can do a lot more.

The panellists were then asked to elaborate on parts of their answer.

HM: We lack confidence in our ability. We are a country of great assets and world-class resources; it's odd that we have this confidence problem. We are also risk-averse and success-averse.

Also, I don't see the sum of our wisdom revolving around independence or the Union as it stands; there can be a more radical view of the Union which wants to see Scotland push itself. The Union can evolve; if we want more powers, we should argue for them.

Q: How would Scotland be better-served as an independent nation?

TM: Scottish ministers going to Brussels to negotiate in fishing would be in the room like Ireland and Finland, not waiting outside. We could do things like reduce corporation tax to make us a low-tax economy to encourage business; no Scottish government would have taken us into the war in Iraq illegally.

TB: Tricia is still feeling with her heart, not her head. An independent Scotland is a wonderful, romantic notion, but it wouldn't work. We are infinitely better when we are part of a bigger picture.

BM: I am a Unionist, but I believe independence could work - but not the way the SNP says. Scotland would be faced with some hard choices. Ireland is successful in many ways but it took about 60 years to get its act together economically. It can work, but many of our companies have England as their main market and we need to think very carefully how we service that market.

HM: The social union with England and the economic union wouldn't change. There can be political and constitutional change, but if Scotland wants more powers, it should be able to take them. We do not need independence to change. We can debate differential rates of corporation tax [under existing structures]. It may be a rough road to travel but we can do a lot of things without going down the independence road. We have only had a few years of the parliament but we have had some legislation that leads the UK such as the smoking ban and free personal care.

TM: It's a shame Henry McLeish's ideas aren't articulated anywhere within the Labour Party. Instead we just get "the big bad wolf coming to get us" and told we are too poor, too small, too stupid to be independent.

TB: I didn't say Scotland couldn't survive under independence, I just believe it wouldn't work as effectively.

Q: Does independence for Scotland mean rule from Brussels? If so, how does that equate with independence?

TM: The SNP is not taking Scotland anywhere; it will be for the people to decide how far and how fast we go. We believe in independence and I believe Scotland would be better as part of the European Community. Many other small countries like Ireland are making a contribution there. Why do we prefer Scotland to be represented [in Europe] by another country, through Westminster? We need to be in Europe to exploit its markets and because we are outward-looking. We were trading with Europe long before we were part of the UK.

IS: There is no such thing as an independent country, we are all inter-dependent. Foreign affairs, defence and macro-economic policy are better working on a larger scale. Europe does perhaps have too much influence in some areas but maybe not enough in others. The SNP always says decisions are taken at Westminster but we are part of Westminster - we elect MPs in Scotland and send them there. They say an independent Scotland would not have gone into Iraq, but the Labour and Conservative parties have a majority in the Scottish Parliament and they were pro-war. It's not just about independence - we have to win the arguments.

Q: Is there enough Scottish history/cultural identity taught in schools?

BM: I remember at my primary being taught about Burns and Scottish history in a cross-curricular way; we painted and we sang about Scotland. I was quite nationalist when I was young but when I started travelling through England I saw a country that was expansive and welcoming. There are very strong regional identities; it is not a monolithic place.

Q: Who sets interest rates in an independent Scotland? What is the currency?

TM: The SNP has made it clear we will have a referendum on independence. Alex Salmond made it clear we would hold to sterling in the early days of independence. I hope after that we can persuade people to go into the euro.

TB: There is an 8 billion gap in SNP finances and I do not think we have had a good explanation of how this will be bridged.

HM: Donald Dewar said devolution was a journey, never a destination. What is missing in this debate is what is best for Scotland. [Under independence], we could spend ten to 15 years arguing how things work. We need a debate on serious issues of policy - like why Scotland has twice the rate of alcohol deaths as the rest of the UK. Then tax - if we changed the rate of income tax, it would put us at a competitive disadvantage to the north of England. But look at Catalonia or Bavaria - they have a menu of taxes to choose from. In Scotland, income tax is the only thing on offer - there is no sales tax, no corporation tax variable. We have to be progressive.