Atheists tell council to end saying prayers at meetings
A PRESSURE group campaigning for the rights of atheists is to demand that the city council puts a stop to holding prayers at the start of its meetings.
The National Secular Society (NSS) last week won a High Court ruling against prayers held by a Devon town council in a test case that could affect all councils in England and Wales.
Its representatives in Scotland are now to turn their sights on Edinburgh, one of the only Scottish councils to still hold prayers before its monthly meetings of all councillors.
They are demanding talks with city chiefs amid claims that the prayers, which are held by representatives of different faiths each month, could be unlawful.
Edinburgh’s Lord Provost George Grubb, who is a retired Kirk minister, today hit back, insisting that it would be “a sad day” if the council is forced to stop holding prayers at the start of each meeting of the full council.
Norman Bonney, an Edinburgh-based council member of the NSS, said: “The most important implication [of the High Court ruling] is that they will have to examine the legal situation and whether they have the legal powers to do what they do. That was the case in England and it is amazing that, for 40 years, a council has been conducting prayers but have not had the legal right to do so. A local authority can only do what the law empowers them to do.”
Mr Bonney has already demanded talks with council leader Jenny Dawe and chief executive Sue Bruce about the “unhealthy religious divisions” in Edinburgh schools and now wants to discuss the tradition of holding prayers.
He said: “There needs to be some clarification from the chief executive or council leader on what the legal basis is on which they hold this.”
Prayers are held in Edinburgh’s City Chambers after a bell signals the start of the meeting.
Speakers in recent years have included the Rt Reverend David Arnott, moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, Rabbi David Rose of the Edinburgh Hebrew Congregation and Marilyn Jackson, of the Humanist Society of Scotland.
Cllr Grubb said: “In Edinburgh, we have a multi-faith society and I am sure many people would be very disappointed if we did not have prayers or a moment for reflection. However, we’ve noted the English ruling and will consider what the implications may be for us.”
He added: “I think it is valuable. It is a time of reflection.”
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Comments
There are 37 comments to this article
Page 1 of 3
Neil Barber
Thursday, February 16, 2012 at 12:30 PMSayeeda Warsi proclaims that religion should have “A proper place in the public sphere”. Why does it seem necessary for the religious to have a public expression and endorsement of their beliefs at all ? They appear to have overlooked Jesus' instruction that his followers should not pray like 'hypocrites' (i.e. actors) in the open but should pray in secret (Matt. 6:5). In the minds of all but the most unthinking of believers there must be a quiet voice of doubt. Is it possible that unless they have some sort of group entertainment of belief that voice becomes a roar ? To avoid this they routinely employ other believers in what become god dominated institutions so as to minimise the event of ever having to rub up against someone who pokes at that self-doubt. They insist on the right to impose religion on intellectually defenceless children and to have religion timetabled into public life which they call religious freedom. Their shrill cries of “aggressive atheist” again are a response to the comfort they need to feel from the idea that they are a majority established institution. I would ask of Sayeeda Warsi …is your religious conviction so weak that you can’t do it on your own ? Neil Barber
MartinD
Wednesday, February 15, 2012 at 10:22 AMTo Johntt: You are wrong on all counts. It is not atheists taking this action, it is secularists, which is a completely different thing. Many religious people are secularist. Secularists do not want to abolish religion they simply believe that religion should have no influence in politics and education. And if Christianity is the ‘Truth’ why does 65% of the world not agree?
Niebiosa tam sa naprawde nieskrzydlowe ludzie tam
Wednesday, February 15, 2012 at 09:49 AMLook at the smug,well fed face of the church in the above article about Bishop Armes. The face of the church today, smug,self satisfied, unchallenged, pah Christians today are hypocrits.
paulr
Wednesday, February 15, 2012 at 08:31 AMreligion is the root of all evil, not money.
Niebiosa tam sa naprawde nieskrzydlowe ludzie tam
Wednesday, February 15, 2012 at 07:05 AMReligion, making good people do bad things !
GarryOtton
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 10:03 PMJohntt makes a good point, only Christianity is not so much becoming more resiliant and stronger as more right-wing reactionary. That is not a result of atheism becoming more militant, it is because the Church (like its media cronies) is out of touch.
veedenyer
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 09:40 PMJohntt: When are the superstitious religionists going to understand from the lessons and atrocities of history that the more you try to stifle free and independent thought, the more resilient and stronger it gets. Why? Because as education and knowledge permeate our lives, religion is seen for what it is – an uneducated and easy way to try to explain what was difficult to contemplate. That time is passing quickly and all is becoming more understandable and less superstitious as we develop our knowledge in this extraordinary but increasingly explicable world of ours.
Taigh na Croiche
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 09:34 PMWhy should councillors waste their time on this out of date nonsense? Religious faith is personal and should be kept for home and church. If any councillor really feels the need to pray to hisher god then i'm sure there's a private room they can slip off to. Or else do it at home in private.
veedenyer
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 09:05 PMI wish Michael Blackley would not use the word ‘demand’. No atheist and certainly not mild mannered Norman Bonney would ‘demand’ anything of Jenny Dawe whose head rose above the parapet this week and is now garnering pot shots. It is irksome when reporters put their own spin showing their puce complexion rather than maintaining a neutral reporting stance. Shame. It is inappropriate that religiosity is in, and seen to be in, public life and especially so in political public life. Given the appalling record of the religious in society over the last couple of thousand years, to even see a semblance of it in our political chambers of deliberation is embarrassing. No, it is not okay for the non-believers to stay outside the chamber during prayers. No religion at all is the default position and those wanting to commune with their deity should do so in the privacy of a common room not in the chamber and public gallery. Religion needs to retreat back to private practice and not show its anecdotal faces in public life. No one really wants to know the oddity of religious incantations in the public sphere. Cllr Grubb will need many years to be able to accommodate all the different religious faiths and cults and sects and the non believers in any prayer-before-politics regime he may have in mind. Just get rid of the whole lot. Time’s past when it was a beheading offence to not pretend a religious adherence.
Johntt
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 09:03 PMWhen are the hardline atheists going to understand from the lessons of history that the more you try to shut down Christianity the more resilient and stronger it gets. Why? Simply because it represents the truth of life, even if at times, maybe often, it does so imperfectly.
GarryOtton
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 08:37 PMNow if this was Tower Hamlets we would have to sit quietly through a lot of wailing and protestations to Mecca. Let's stop this silly game dead in its tracks now. I'm quite sure I know what most people on here would say if they had to drop everything and pray at work. It's bad enough that religionists have unelected seats in the highest legislature in land introducing laws forcing praying in our schools. ALL schools, that is, not just sectarian or so-called 'faith' schools.
GarryOtton
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 08:32 PMI'm glad they are accommodating all beliefs and not excluding anyone as I want them to cull a goat by slitting its throat and examine its entrails to see if we can have a cut in council tax.
oTo
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 07:58 PM"one of the only Scottish councils to still hold prayers before its monthly meetings" - Edinburgh - still the most embarassing City in the world to live in! Religion has absolutely NO place in Public Administration - get a grip!
A Friend of Fernando Poo
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 06:34 PM"Cllr Grubb said: “In Edinburgh, we have a multi-faith society and I am sure many people would be very disappointed if we did not have prayers".............................................................................................................................Fairy Nuff. If it's a multi-faith society, then let's vary the religion prayed to at each meeting. Give the Catholics and Protestants a turn. Then the Jews, Bhuddists and Muslims. Move on to the Scientologists and Jedi. Miss a day for the atheists and then let the Discordians and Satanists have their turn. There should be just about enough days in any given administration to get through all religions. If they're not going to give every god its day though, then they should skip it and do the job they're paid for.
One-man-bucket's older twin
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 06:18 PMI thought the idea was to separate religious practise from government. Nobody else spends time praying when they arrive at work, so if local government officers do, it implies a connection between the church and government that favours the religion imposing the prayers.
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