Scottish independence: Spectre of border controls raised by top Tory
Passport controls could come into play. Picture: PA
THE UK’s minister for Europe has issued a stark warning that an independent Scotland may need passport controls at its border with England.
David Lidington said Scotland would not necessarily inherit the UK’s opt-out of a European Union agreement that permits freedom of movement around most of Europe and means EU citizens are still subject to passport checks at UK borders.
However, a spokesman for First Minister Alex Salmond dismissed the claims as “demonstrably untrue” and “scaremongering”.
Mr Lidington suggested EU rules introduced following the signing of the Lisbon Treaty would compel an independent Scotland to enter a Europe-wide, border-free zone.
As the UK has opted out of this zone – known as the Schengen area – the Westminster government would be forced to establish passport controls between Scotland and England.
Mr Lidington, who was at Holyrood’s European and external relations committee yesterday, said Scotland would not necessarily inherit the UK’s opt-out of the Schengen Agreement and would have to negotiate its own terms.
Speaking at a post-committee briefing, he said opt-outs such as those on the Schengen agreement and the euro “require not just a bilateral agreement between the UK and an independent Scotland – it would require the agreement of all of the other member states as well”.
Mr Salmond’s spokesman insisted the arrangements for passport controls would be unchanged under independence. He said: “As legal, constitutional and European experts have confirmed, the reality is that Scotland is part of the territory of the European Union and the people of Scotland are citizens of the EU – there is no provision for either of these circumstances to change upon independence, and the rest of the UK will be in exactly the same position.
“We will both be successor states, with exactly the same status within the EU.
“All of these tired old scare stories are demonstrably untrue – they are insulting to Scotland, and the only effect they are having is to boost support for independence.”
The spokesman went on: “An independent Scotland will also inherit the Common Travel Area which exists between the UK and Ireland, rendering claims of passport controls ridiculous.
“It is in the interests of the UK government to stop scaremongering on these issues, because their silly claims are rebounding back on them.”
Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie seized on Mr Lidington’s claims to warn the restrictions could affect the “ease of travel between” Scotland and England.
Attacking the SNP pledge that independence would not cause great disruption to UK-based residents, he said: “Passport controls between England and Scotland would have a significant impact on the ease of travel between our two nations. This would have an impact on business and personal relations.”
Mr Lidington also said Scotland’s membership of the EU was not “something that can simply be assumed” and he repeated his warning that border controls with England would be a “clear problem” under independence. He said: “The fact the UK has an opt-out from Schengen means we are able to maintain the border controls that you don’t have on the borders between Schengen countries.
“Logically, if Scotland were in Schengen, every Schengen country has to dismantle border checks with other Schengen countries, and have border checks with other EU states that are outside Schengen.
“That is why, for example, if I fly to Munich from London, I have to go through a passport check before I can transit to a plane connecting to Poland.
“So there’s a logic in the way that Schengen is organised, and that is a clear problem that Scotland would have to face up to.
“Membership is something which requires the unanimous agreement of every other member state. The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. We have our accession treaty. We are a signatory to it and are bound by European law.
“Now, I can see quite see that if Scotland wanted to leave the UK – and I hope she doesn’t – she would probably want to be in the European Union. But that is something that would have to be negotiated and would require the agreement of every member.
“There’s no precedent for a country or region breaking away from an existing EU member state and becoming independent. Anything that touches on membership has to have unanimous agreement.”
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Comments
There are 656 comments to this article
Page 1 of 44
Ayrshireguy
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 07:36 AMAfter reading many comments here and on other sites, I am convinced that all unionists are scaremongers and liars.
Aucthtermuchty
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 10:45 PM@Anagach Good point about Oil flow and SNP fortunes . For all you Deride Wee Eck , he i is a great leader and speaker, a raconteur , he etas too much , drinks too much and bets too much , he has a connection with your typical Central Scot . If he Dropped this lunatic idea I would vote for him . Most important he is the face of the SNP , he is electable , from that mass of Scotsmen with a grievance , the Curmudgeons , the vindictive academics who blame "England " for their empty lives , for all those mal-adjusted history teachers , those paper tigers , who day dream forlornly about a time when Scots were noble that mixture of Nerds and Tartan Tories , has joined with disaffected labour supporters (who off course voted for Brown ) And they dont want to pay the bill of the LAbour Largesse , they want to bale everything out with OIL That is your SNP Anagach or your voters anyway . Can I say that i see you are a genuine Scots Patriot and can understand some of my views offend you , but this is a board full of nut jobs . You should spend a few weeks living in Dunfermline or Dundee , and you will see what lazy B**** the Scots have become they will neither work nor want , But i realize this is my personal gripe . I see Dole scroungers young and old every day , and I see our fields full of Poles working away , it annoys me the young ones have no pride
Markmywords
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 06:07 AMEdited to correct: Salmond is being disingenuous here. Scotland cannot have it both ways. It cannot choose independence, and then try to pretend that nothing ever changed. If you want independence then great. But then you will have to take responsibility. This means that you will have to take your fair share of the UK's national debt with you, you will have to apply for EU membership, you may well have to join the Euro, help bail out Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain. You will have to set your own tax rates. Has anyone thought about whether free university education, free prescriptions etc can continue when you are financially self responsible ? What will happen if your corporation tax rates have to increase ? How long do you think that companies will remain in Scotland once the corporation tax rates are increased ? And, despite the SNP's constant reference to it, who said that the oil was yours ? Most, if not all of it, is in international waters. The licenses to drill there are granted by 5 countries. The UK is one of them. As the UK will still exist after independence, then the UK will STILL own the licenses. Scotland will not. I'm not against independence for Scotland, it will be the will of the people, as it should be. But I do think that the SNP are not being anything like honest enough with you about it. A hell of a lot of responsibility comes with it. Take it by all means. But do not bury your heads and just make assumptions. Things WILL change. Stating the facts is NOT scaremongering. Salmond is not being challenged on any of what he is saying. This needs to happen. You deserve the truth. He must tell it.
Markmywords
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 05:55 AMSalmond is being disingenuous here. Scotland cannot have it both ways. It cannot choose independence, and then try to pretend that nothing ever changed. If you want independence then great. But then you will have to take responsibility. This means that you will have to take your fair share of the UK's national debt with you, you will have to apply for EU membership, you may well have to join the Euro, help bail out Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain. You will have to set your own tax rates. Has anyone thought about whether free university education, free prescriptions etc can continue when you are financially self responsible ? What will happen if your corporation tax rates have to increase ? Will the M74will last under your current taxation rates ? How long do you think companies will remain in Scotland once the corporation tax rates are increased ? And, despite the SNP's constant reference to it, who said that the oil was yours ? Most, if not all of it, is in international waters. The licenses to drill there are granted by 5 countries. The UK is one of them. As the UK will still exist after independence, then the UK will STILL own the licenses. Scotland will not.
The Pict.
Thursday, February 23, 2012 at 04:51 AM647. Scouser. That's great! However the ones resisting the separation are the current Prime minister and the leader of the Labour party etc. Why would that be ?. Could they have been fibbing about the subjigation of Scotland as they cover the real economics as to who is subsidizing who? As you say you want to get rid of us Scots and of course I am in full agreement with you as are the majority of Scots. It is also not only about money. Our culture is very different from yours. From the German royal family down to the so-called lords we receive nothing but ridicule. There is no doubt that the hatred factor would disappear once we leave the union. There is no hatred for the average Englishman but the class system of the lords etc. ..yes. Hopefully your English citizens will press for separation and then we can get it over with and get on with living. Slainte Mhath.
mallus12
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 08:41 PMWhen are the lowland Scots going to apologise for their criminal destruction of the Highlanders? How it suits them to deflect responsibility to anyone other than themselves. I ask any Highlander of undisputed lineage before 1745 to confirm the following The lowland Scots took the opportunity to finally crush the wild,savage,unruly inhabitants who were generally also Catholic. Not only was the Governmen ARMY largely composed of Lowland Scots but the following oppression was pursued with GREAT ENTHUSIASM by the same. It is only in retrospect that this did not look good that the Lowlanders changed their attitude to the Highlanders--a typical example of Scots trying to dodge their responsibility--in short MORAL COWARDICE.
mallus12
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 08:26 PMLong ago I served in the RAF which had like all the services had it's high number of Scots.Many of these had an odd walk caused by a massive chip on one shoulder and a crick in the neck looking over the other shoulder at what the English were or were not doing. It was during this time I realised any dispute 'no matter how trivial meant you were "anti-Scottish"- any agreement you were "patronising" them. Given the choice I have steadily held to my "anti-Scottish " attitude and want nothing more than to see the back of you and your bristling hostility to anything and anyone who hasn't had the fortune(according to your massive self-regard)to be Scottish.
Anagach
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 07:08 PM635 Aucthtermuchty if there was no OIL there would be no interest in the SNP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really. The SNP fortune maps the oil wealth does it. I do not find it so. In fact it dipped badly in the 80s when things were tough and the oil was flowing. But if you have an analysis and at least some correlation, if not causation, details then I am all ears. As for the oil its flattened out and the SNP are higher then they have ever been. But then I guess it does not fit with your views of the lazy scot 'archtype'.
saltpeter
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 03:29 PMjust another ignorant nutter to add to the rest unfortunately hes from that wonderful metropolis Liverpool how are there so many buffoons getting involved in this debate
scouser
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 03:10 PMin reply to The Pict . can i tell you that most of the english think the same way and want an independent england, an england were the tax payer is not paying a fortune for a bloated public sector that scotland loves so much, apart from oil and whisky what else do you export that will bring in enough money to fund everything that salmond is promising, you can bet that your income taxes will rise to 50% for those in work, you may not know but the public sector does little for growth. ask salmond to insist on the english having a vote on scotland leaving the union
Simonsaid
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 02:18 PMDrawn feather dusters at 10 paces - playground stuff frae baith sides
Stan Smith
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 10:48 AM@644 Yawn.
The Pict.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 02:52 AM# 642 There is a new breed of Scots now. I'm not sure where you come from but the Scots of to-day have got rid of the 'Canny Dae That' attitude. Thanks to Alex Salmond and the S.N.P. The English er British parliament now know that Scots are NOT buying their lies any more and WE DON'T NEED or WANT ENGLAND determining OUR FUTURE. Slainte Mhath.
The Pict.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 02:42 AMAren't we Scots just shaking in our boots. If what Mr. Lidington says is true-- 'GREAT'. The ENGLISH will also have to have English passports to enter Scotland of course. I for one will be very happy to line up for a SCOTTISH passport which I have wanted for years. Aw! Anybody ken wha Mr. Lidington is?
Aucthtermuchty
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 at 01:17 AMthe Scots people you speak of died out long ago , maybe a few in their 60's now ? Scots ar eproperty owning ,consumers now , who crave big tellys and fast food . An easy life working for the state or living of it , for National sentiment think Braveheart . Scots are so much the same as English now there is no differnce , they cant play them at sport anymore , though they may stand a chance with computer games , So this Nationalist fervour is a reaction against inevitable decline . i did not make the Scots teh most Obese in Europe , I did not give jobs to thousands of Poles who find work with ease , whilst our own folk seek further handouts . I had nothing to do with Maggie dismantling the Industry, and traumatizing a generation . its happened now and its not coming back
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