Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

Drink Driving, Don't Risk It!

We Will Rock You - see it in Edinburgh this Christmas

Minimum price for alcohol set at 40p per unit

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 05 July 2009
CUT-price drink will be banned from Scotland's shops under legislation set to be brought forward by ministers.
Scotland on Sunday understands that the SNP is poised to back a 40p per unit rate for all alcoholic drinks when it announces its full plans later this year. The government believes that it will stop shops from selling loss-leading cheap drink, while leaving more expensive brands untouched.

Under a 40p rate, a bottle of vodka – which contains 26 units of alcohol but can now be bought for less than £7 – would retail at a minimum of £10.40. Similarly, large bottles of cheap cider, which can be bought for less than £3, would more than double in price.

But the government said most spirits, and most wine and beer, would be unaffected by the 40p minimum since they retail at above that level.

A final decision on the exact rate will be made after a study by Sheffield University into the likely impact. But officials believe the 40p rate strikes the right balance, hitting the sale of cheap drink while not being too punitive for consumers.

Nonetheless, the SNP faces a struggle to get its plans through parliament, with neither the Tories, the Liberals or Labour yet having committed to the principle of minimum pricing.

The 40p rate may also fail to satisfy medics, many of whom believe only a 50p per unit rate will adequately cut drinking. A report in the medical journal the Lancet found last week that such a rate would cut heavy drinkers' intake by 10 per cent.

Dr Peter Terry, chairman of the BMA in Scotland, last night called for opposition parties to rally behind the measures. "Doctors witness the devastation of alcohol and the crippling effect it is having on the NHS," he said. "I hope that politicians of all parties can back the Scottish Government's alcohol strategy and support legislation on alcohol pricing."

However, the drinks industry remains opposed to the measures, even at 40p.

Gavin Partington of the Wine and Spirits Trade Association said: "Firstly, we don't think that minimum pricing in principle is the right answer. Secondly, you can't have it both ways. On the one hand, they're saying that minimum pricing isn't going to hurt people because you've set a notionally low price. In which case, what's the point? On the other, they're saying it's going to have a serious impact on drinking."

He added: "The truth is that 40p per unit for alcohol would make a very ordinary bottle of wine at 13.5 per cent abv, which equates to 10.1 units, cost a minimum of £4."

The SNP received a boost from the Greens last night, who said they would back the plans.

Green MSP Patrick Harvie said: "A minimum price policy isn't a silver bullet, but alongside other sensible changes it could play a very positive part in improving public health."

However, the other parties said they wanted to see the details of the policy before deciding whether to back it.

LibDem health spokesman Robert Brown said: "We are not against a price mechanism and we accept entirely that a serious approach is required to deal with alcohol in Scotland. But we have hostility towards the principle of minimum pricing."

Dr Richard Simpson for Labour said: "I do think we have to have something. We should have a system whereby you can't sell below cost. We need to debate whether a minimum price of 40p would help."

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said: "We have commissioned the university to put together Scotland-specific research. It is on the basis of that which will decide what the minimum price will be.

"It will affect things like cheap white cider which you can currently pick up for next to nothing. You are not going to see an increase in the price of quality whisky or a good bottle of wine. Eighty to ninety per cent of wine is not going to be affected. Whereas 85 per cent of bottles of cider will be affected, and around 40 per cent of cheap vodkas," he said.

The policy is also backed by Scotland's chief medical officer Harry Burns. He said he was "an agnostic" on minimum pricing until he saw evidence on how the relative cheapness of booze led to a "mirror image" of consumption.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 July 2009 7:45 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 00:18:17
1 Oh shut up with your parochial nonsense.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 00:23:58

So will this proposed levy on alcohol get directed straight through the doors of Scotland's NHS A&E departments, who cater for alcohol abuse victims?, I rather think not!
A grotesque levy on alcohol, that punishes the many for the few, how logical is that!, as those who abuse alcohol will continue do to so, no-matter the price.




3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 00:36:39
Most 13.5% wines at £3.99 are on offer anyway.
4

Brianwci,

05/07/2009 00:45:51
I'm all for raising the price of cheap drink.....but again I make a plea for the over 60s on pension or benefits that they can still buy bottles of reasonably priced wine (£8 - £10) for half price....with bus ticket or pension book or something as proof of status if necessary.
5

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 00:54:49
3
Charles Linskaill

It's not a "levy", you fool. at least read the article before commenting.

6

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 00:56:07
2
Observer

"Oh shut up with your parochial nonsense."

Well said.

7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 01:08:10

~8,
EH,

Call it what you want, Tax/Levy/Magic-Money, or more the likes 'authorized theft'
The Extra Money we will now have to pay, for a glass of wine, will not be used for good causes, or given to our NHS, more the likes, the limos, and expenses scenarios, and the ones who abuse alcohol will continue to do-so!

8

Jason,

Japan 05/07/2009 01:13:46
Imported bottles of gin and whisky sometimes have a "recommended units" advisory on the label. Requires a volume as a function of alcoholic proof calculation. But even that's not alcohol percentage. Hard enough to work out sober, but ...
Now if only it said: Men, do not consume bottle in less than three days. Women, in less than five days. And some guff about pro-rata.
Fortunately alcoholic beverage is so cheap here there's just no excuse for being sober. Best hay fever cure around.
9

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:14:52
7
Cynicus in Exile

"...but will penalise modest drinkers who consume 25 cl. bottles."

The proposal would make the minimum price of a 250ml bottle of Chardonnay (13% ABV) around £1.30. Current price in Asda is around £2.00. Explain how anyone is being penalised.

10

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:16:21
10
Charles Linskaill

"The Extra Money we will now have to pay..."

What "Extra Money"?

You really haven't understood this at all, have you?

11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 01:22:29
~13.
EH,
"Under a 40p rate, a bottle of vodka – which contains 26 units of alcohol but can now be bought for less than £7 – would retail at a minimum of £10.40."

£3.40 extra, or are you going to fling £7.00, on the counter and do a runner?

12

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:27:22
14
Charles Linskaill

What happened to your pensioners and their 25cl bottles of wine?

The vodka, strong cider etc. that is being sold - often at a loss - for 20p per unit or less is a contributory factor in alcohol abuse. Ordinary drinkers will be unaffected by minimum pricing. As was shown with the example of the 25cl bottles of wine that you suddenly don't want to talk about.

13

qohldr,

05/07/2009 01:31:31
A final decision on the exact rate will be made after a study by Sheffield University into the likely impact.

The Nationalists are waiting for the results from an English university a university in England the country that we have a union with the country that the nationalist on here consistently imply should stay out of Scottish affairs.
Well I am shocked.
14

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:32:19
14
Charles Linskaill

My apologies. It was Cynicus in Exile who mentioned the 25cl bottles of wine. The example is still illustrative.

15

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:33:41
16
qohldr

"The Nationalists are waiting for the results from an English university..."

More parochial nonsense.

16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 01:36:57


25cl bottles of anything are way too expensive, and bad value for money, they cost more to produce, this is the 'why'
No sensible Adult would purchase a 25cl bottle anyway, as would not our sensible adults who do not abuse alcohol.
17

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 01:41:21
19
Charles Linskaill

All right. Take another example. I like a pint of Stella Artois. Under the proposals the minimum price would be £1.18. At present I pay £3.00 in my local pub. Where is the "Extra Money"?

18

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 02:07:34
Looking at it from the other perspective, a 3-litre bottle of strong cider (approx. 5.5%) can be purchased for under £2.80. Less than 17p per unit. This means a person can consume the recommended daily maximum for about 50p. For a pound a day they can be in the realm of serious alcohol abuse.

Can anyone possibly defend this?

19

qohldr,

05/07/2009 02:10:46
#18
Denial is a wonderful thing.
20

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 02:18:47
22
qohldr

"Denial is a wonderful thing."

No it isn't!



21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 02:27:49

At the 'End-off-the-Day', I am really annoyed, at this Stupid Taxing on Alcohol!
Why Should I pay More, for the ones that Abuse Alcohol, and will, 'come-hell-or-high-water', continue to Abuse Alcohol' no-matter the Price!??
We had Alcohol Abuse when I was a teenager, we have had Alcohol Abuse, since the day Alcohol was
discovered!
Why the Taxing Now?
Is it to 'Win' Votes!? It will dot do!, Quite the Reverse Actually!
WORSE THAN STUPID AND UNFOUNDED!, Is More the Likes!



22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 02:36:25

And our 'Jakie's', will only have to spend another 10minutes saying, "Any-Spare-Change-Mr", to get he extra needed for a 'Bottle-of-Cider'!

Proposed Ignorence at its best!, Speaks Scotland.

23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 02:38:51
~25 edited errors,

And our 'Jakie's', will only have to spend another 10minutes saying,...
...."Any-Spare-Change-Mr", to get the extra needed for a 'Bottle-of-Cider'!

Proposed Ignorance at its best!, Speaks Scotland.



24

qohldr,

05/07/2009 02:41:55
#23
Are you saying that the nationalists on here have not consistently stated in their comments that Scotland should run it's own affairs and that Westminster, London, England and the Unions should stay out of it.
25

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 03:05:29
27
qohldr

WTF have the unions got to do with it?

26

Herman The German,

05/07/2009 03:06:37
#24.Charles Linskaill
"We had alcohol abuse when I was a teenager" and look what it has done to you,wasted so many brain cells that you can,t get your head around this simple concept.

The reason why the government is putting these proposals forward is to prevent us becoming a Nation of total numpties

27

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 03:12:06
24
Charles Linskaill

"Why the Taxing Now?"

It is not a tax, you dolt! Read the bloody article!

28

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 03:23:34

~30.
HR,

The English will pay less for the same thing, what do you call it, when we pay more for the same?

Is this too simple for comprehension?



29

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 03:54:38
31
Charles Linskaill

It is not a tax. It is not a levy. It is minimum pricing. When you understand that, perhaps you will be able to comment sensibly.

While I have always been very dubious about price-based measures, this proposal looks very promising. Especially if, as seems certain, it is part of a package of measures.

I am not a gambling man, but I would risk a small wager that England will follow Scotland's example in this as in other matters.

30

Dunnie,

Canada 05/07/2009 04:13:06
It's clear to everyone else that the posters on this thread have had too many units.
31

glaswegian at heart,

florida 05/07/2009 04:13:35
from what i read in the newspapers(on the web) scotland is turning into a nation of alcoholic lazy no gooders.Tell me it's a big lie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
32

glaswegian at heart,

florida 05/07/2009 04:15:58
also ,,,is it true the N.H.S. SPENDS MORE ON DRINK RELATED HOSPITAL ADMISSIONS than anywhere in the U.K.
33

Dunnie,

Canada 05/07/2009 04:33:34
34 & 35 - that may be true; but how about hospital admissions in Florida and the US related to gunshot wounds?
34

nuffnuff,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 05:20:09
Down with drink !!
35

tomi,

05/07/2009 05:50:45
These people who are pushing to increase he price of these, so called, "cheap alcohol drinks", are those who have eough money to buy the premium brands.
They are hypocrits!
The price of alcohol little to do with those who commit crime while "under the influence".
Look at the price of heroin or cocain (for examples): these are already expensive, should the government be setting minimum prices for these?
Of course, that would not help!
The government is always happy to enhance its revenue, (an inrease of minimum price would mean an increase in tax retun) even if the product could be a factor in damage to society.
Examole: tobacco.
36

ken 17,

@ home 05/07/2009 06:53:27
before anyone agrees to this purported legislation I would remind then to remember RPM. It crucified a Political Party back in the 1960's!!!!
Furthermore, anyone who has shares in, lets call them top brand name alcohol providers, stands open to criticism about 'feathering my nest' or for the uniniated, a kingsize conflict of interest.
Do MSP's wish to be tarred with the same brush as MP's or MEP's?
37

ken 17,

@ Home 05/07/2009 07:02:05
Re 'NHS COSTS BECAUSE OF ALCOHOL'
If the Tax on Acohol and Tobacco was used solely for the NHS, rather than MP's and MSP's inflated salaries, [I am ignoring EXPENSES], WE COULD EACH HAVE A PERSONAL HOSPITAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't got annoyed, this is easily worked out from the Treasury's own figures!!!!!!!!!!!!!
38

P Rayner.,

Uk 05/07/2009 07:04:13
Except as a revenue raising exercise the idea of a substantial price increase in Scotland alone is a bone headed idea. Were alcoholism such a problem the government and police would be more active. Accordingly,education along the lines of anti smoking might make an impact. However, that policy might also lead to a substantial loss to the exchequer and that won't do.
39

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 08:41:06
We have seen first hand the effects of high price and restricted access to alcohol in Canada and Norway.
That policy certainly works as far as seeing the effects of alcohol on the streets.
Presumably this attitude has some effect on the general health of people in these countries, where they are available statistics can be very difficult to relate to the each other across borders.
40

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 05/07/2009 08:51:14
Yes charles read the proposals ,it is not a TAX,the drinks industry will get the money.I suppose with your wet brain there is no room for reasoned debate
41

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 05/07/2009 08:54:55
#38,you do have not got a clue,being a recovering alchoholic,i know what cheap booze does to you and more so to your family.
42

Pattester,

Galashiels 05/07/2009 08:57:20
*40
Well said Ken 17 and as for Electric Hermit I’m sorry but is a TAX because it affects everyone not just the people it is designed to affect. The MP's and MSP's will have to put their expenses up to cover their wine after all that's all they do all day is whine. as someone said earlier it won't make any difference to the hardened drinker as he/she will get their money from somewhere else after all if you are on the dole if you admit to being an alcoholic then you can get an extra allowance from the government and if you think I am talking rubbish go down to your local DHSS office or whatever they are called nowadays and between 08:45 & 09:15 see the people who are queued up out side and ask them why they are there.
43

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 09:06:28
46
Pattester

"...I’m sorry but is a TAX because it affects everyone..."

TAX: (noun) Charge against a citizen's person or property or activity for the support of government

It is NOT a tax.

And it does not affect everyone. As has already been demonstrated in a way that would be understood by the average mollusc.

If you want to argue against minimum unit pricing, by all means do so. But at least have the good sense to find out what it is before launching into a fit of knee-jerking.

44

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 09:12:07
24 charles

You will only pay more if you are buying the heavily discounted drinks, which I am sure you are not.
45

ddmc,

05/07/2009 09:13:46
just wait for the lawsuits from the big 4 supermarkets, also if I buy my alcohol online from England or even if people do a booze run to newcastle or carlisle, what can be done about that, customs on the border ?
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 09:17:24
46 Patt

This is actually not a tax. It is simply price regulation. There is a difference.
47

Finnzz,

05/07/2009 09:19:43
Excellent proposal by this Government.

This pricing structure, which will be levied by the drink suppliers, will go a long way towards preventing kids getting out of their faces on cheap booze.

Typically, the other parties appear to have no policies of their own regarding the problem. Heads in the sand, the lot of them.
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 09:21:44
49 ddmc

Now you are just being silly. What would be the nature of these "lawsuits".

And, yes you would be able to buy booze online or do a booze run across the border. But I can't visualise your average purchaser of the heavily discounted lager and cider actually doing this. Can you?
49

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 09:39:30
#27, qholdr.

Are you really as stupid as your comments would suggest?

The SG commissioned this study from Sheffield University so, it has nothing to do with Westminster.
50

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 09:53:26
#50 - Price regulation is illegal under European law.
51

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 09:53:33
53
frank mcbride

Actually, I think the study was originally commissioned by the Department of Health. Sheffield University was chosen simply because it houses the School of Health and Related Research (ScHARR), which is the body best qualified and equipped to conduct research in this area.

52

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 09:55:34
Supermarkets sell alcohol for less than 40p a unit to drag customers in, so they buy a load of rubbish at the same time as they are buying cheap booze. If you can't afford to spend 40p per unit then you really shouldn't be buying it.

The fact that the research comes from an English University is completely irrelevant, why on earth is anyone commenting on it ?
53

english charlie,

05/07/2009 09:56:22
Other goods have a maximum price and no minimum price. How about a maximum price of 40p per unit for alcohol?
54

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 09:59:00
54
GraemeH

"Price regulation is illegal under European law."

The law is there to be challenged. That is how it evolves.

55

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 10:00:26
What really surprises me, with repect to the NO lobby on this thread, is their complete and utter disregard of the fact that minimum pricing is but on aspect of the SNP Government's proposal.

For the first time, ever, Government is attempting to sensibly address this blight on Scottish society in a comprehensive manner.

If the Nay-sayers have a better solution to this problem, then let them articulate it so we can rid Scotland of this serious problem affect our communities.
56

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 10:04:36
A spokesman for the Scottish Government said: "It will affect things like cheap white cider which you can currently pick up for next to nothing. You are not going to see an increase in the price of quality whisky".

Idiot. At Netto you can usually get a reasonablle blended whisky (Bell's, Grant's or something of that quality) for £9.90. Under this scheme any bottle of whisky (28 units) will cost at least £11.20.

The press should stop quoting anonymous spokesmen. They should either publish their names or ignore them.
57

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 10:05:19
#55, Electric Hermit.

You are partially correct, but the SG has asked for a Scotland-specific study. See 3rd last para. of the article.
58

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:11:58
54 Graeme

Really?

"The EU's earlier roaming cuts have already had a negative impact on the carriers, which previously had "made margins on inter-country calls, and particularly on data roaming," said Jessica Ekholm, a Gartner principal research analyst. T-Mobile said earlier this year that "lower roaming revenues and newly introduced regulation on roaming and termination charges had a negative impact on revenues."
59

Unimpressed one,

05/07/2009 10:13:00
More research (like a walk around any council estate) would show that buckie and cheap cider are the poison of choice for our chavs, not Chardonnay or hock. I expect we will see booze trips to Carlisle soon.
60

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 10:13:20
61
frank mcbride

"You are partially correct, but the SG has asked for a Scotland-specific study."

I realise this. I was addressing the silly comments regarding the fact that the research was being done in England - making the point that (a) the School of Health and Related Research (ScHARR) was obviously the best option and (b) the relevant research was already in progress.

But I don't expect these simple facts will deter the numpties from trying to make some kind of anti-Scottish government rant out of this.

61

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:14:53
60 publius

Where do you buy your whisky. At that price I want some!!
62

i wear trousers not a skirt,

voting new labour out 05/07/2009 10:16:24
Why not jail the drunken neds who are anti-social drinking the buckfast/ cheap cider etc. Absolute disgrace to the ordinary law abiding citizens who like a drink be punished because of wee louts. What will happened to our justice minister mcaskill who was held in the cells at wembley when he was drunk at the football match england v scotland he was not arrested because he was a msp. Why should we listen to him who cant hold his drink tell us what to do.
63

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 10:18:38
#60, Publius.

Selling a Grade A spirit (40%) at £9.90/bt. is a "loss-leader".

Costs:

Excise duty: £6.30
VAT: £1.70

Add these to the product cost, transport, wages, other overheads and profit.

A selling price of £11.20 would be ethical and responsible.
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:22:57
54 graeme

It seems your statement does not apply to the French....

(Graeme, please note that the EU allowed this because it was "reasonable, proportionate and justified").

"France wins EU green light to regulate texting prices
20 July 2006, 13:43 CET

The European Commission has granted French telecoms authorities the right to regulate the wholesale price of mobile phone text messages, an EU first, according to a document published Thursday.

European Union information society commissioner Viviane Reding has approved a request to set the prices for SMS between the main mobile providers in France, said the document by the EU's commission.

The commission, the EU's executive arm, said a request by French telecoms regulator ARCEP was "reasonable, proportionate and justified", in a letter published on its website.

If France acts on the EU green light, it will be the first European country to fix the wholesale price of text messages -- the prices which operators charge eachother to carry text messages on their networks."
65

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 10:23:28
#66, I wear trousers................

Why do you feel that you have to resort to lies?

Is it a criterion of NuLabour membership?
66

Mcsnagpile,

05/07/2009 10:26:13
People are just sheep.

A plastic dustbin some plastic tubing and tape. Sugar, turbo alcohol tolerant yeast, tap water---two weeks later 5 gallons of up to 20% proof alcohol. If you have some other low level distilling talents you can produce up to a gallon of (Vodka)ethyl alcohol for a cost of about two pounds. If you choose not to drink it you could run your car on it for a fraction of the price at the pump. We do not need your smelly petrol.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:28:58
The opposition parties will bluster now, but they will fall into line when this comes before parliament.
68

Nikostratos,,

05/07/2009 10:29:13
#59 frank mcbride

Shut down all breweries,Whisky Distilleries etc ban all sale of alcohol.

The money saved from preventing people drinking themselves to death could then be invested in more healthy alternative forms of employment(or none).
69

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 10:29:31
#65; #67

My original should have said £9.99 (not £9.90). Anyway Netto usually have a bottle of something fairly decent on offer at £9.99 at their London shops and, I think, throughout the UK. I look through their leaflets which arrive each week with the giveaway newspapers to see what there is.
I also look round the other supermarkets from time to time to see what else is on offer. In the last month I have bought a Black Bottle and a Baillie Nicol Jarvie for just over 11 pounds each. The Black Bottle came from Booths (a supermarket in NW England) and the BNJ from Waitrose. At the moment I'm on premium beers and not drinking much whisky, but it's guid to have a store for the winter
70

Nikostratos,,

05/07/2009 10:32:28
#69 frank mcbride,

There goes Frank again everybody's a liar from a bloke who wouldn't know the truth if it bit him on his a#se.
71

Nikostratos,,

05/07/2009 10:34:42
# 73 Publius,

for f#ck's sake you don't shop in nettos do you.
72

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 10:35:20
68
connaughtboy

The assumption that EU competition regulation will block minimum unit pricing is largely based on precedent in which the government of Greece was prohibited from doing something similar with tobacco products.

But there is an essential difference that makes this precedent inapplicable. The Greek government had other options available through taxation that would achieve the same objective without requiring an exception to EU competition law.

In the case of the Scottish government's proposals, taxation is not a viable alternative. Increasing tax could not be expected to be effective as it would affect drink across the board and would not target the ridiculously cheap booze that aggravates the problem of excessive consumption.

73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:36:25
74 Niko

In this particular case frank is correct.

IWTNS was either lying or did not check his facts.

In any case, his comment was off-topic.
74

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 10:37:32
72
Nikostratos

"Shut down all breweries,Whisky Distilleries etc ban all sale of alcohol."

Prohibition has been tried. It was an unmitigated disaster.

75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:39:09
76 Electric Hermit

Absolutely. The argument that the EU will not allow this is largely unfounded.
76

GONNYNODEATHAT,

05/07/2009 10:42:23
Less people now smoke so they NEED the Tax money back. Salmond WILL now claim £400 per month on DRINKS !! This will have NO effect what so ever on underage drinking.
77

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 10:42:53
#75 Nikostratos

Yes, I shop at Netto ... and Lidl and Aldi. I also shop at Waitrose and sometimes drop into Booths (a sort of Lancashire Waitrose but even more upmarket) when I am doing my commute along the M6 from Girvan to London.
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/07/2009 10:43:30
80 uninformed garbage
79

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 10:43:59
#72/74, Niko.

Why don't you attempt to address the points made in the comments to which you refer?

In #66, skirtless states an outright lie. Why do you appear to disagree with this contention?

80

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 10:53:19
80
GONNYNODEATHAT

"Less people now smoke so they NEED the Tax money back."

This is NOT a tax.

81

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 05/07/2009 10:58:08
Supermarket offers are the main problem in this regard and should be restricted to ensure youngsters are limited to access irresponsible drinking via such outlets. A few high profile bans should help do the trick in this regards.
82

The Saltire,

05/07/2009 11:47:19
you can homebrew 5 gallons of real ale for about 13 quid.
83

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 11:48:22
85
Liberal for life

"Supermarket offers are the main problem in this regard..."

Not only supermarkets. All price-based promotions are a seriously bad idea. So-called "happy hours" with their "twofors" and "bogofs" also encourage irresponsible consumption of alcohol.

What is novel and, dare I say it, exiting about the Scottish government's approach is that it tackles the issue on a broad front with a range of measures. Which is a refreshing change from the piecemeal tinkering that we are accustomed to as politicians juggle the need to look as if they are doing something and the fear of upsetting vested interests.

The SNP are to be applauded for their boldness in being prepared to accept political risks in order to find effective solutions.

84

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 11:51:19
86
The Saltire

"you can homebrew 5 gallons of real ale for about 13 quid."

Not if you are a thirteen-year old whose brain is rotted from four or five years of alcohol abuse. The yeast probably has a higher IQ.

85

worker,

Livingston 05/07/2009 12:06:17
as well intentioned these plans are, can anyone tell me where the collected revenue will go? to fund Alcohol Abuse charities? or merely seen as more funds to be trousered by the Scottish Executive?
86

,

05/07/2009 12:09:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
87

Tartan Bonds,

05/07/2009 12:10:21
85 Liberal for life,Dunblane 05/07/2009 10:58:08
Supermarket offers are the main problem in this regard and should be restricted to ensure youngsters are limited to access irresponsible drinking via such outlets. A few high profile bans should help do the trick in this regards
=======================================

Did you have your bottom cleaned out by Thomas Hamilton's fist ?
88

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 12:11:16
89
worker

"...can anyone tell me where the collected revenue will go?"

What "revenue"? A tiny amount of additional VAT?



89

The Saltire,

05/07/2009 12:16:22
88

He could get his mum to help.
90

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 12:19:56
93
The Saltire

"He could get his mum to help."

Sadly, his mum is likely to be beaten in the IQ stakes by the plastic bucket in which the home brew is made.

Joking, of course. But there is a serious point here about the damage done by alcohol abuse and the need to break the cycle which perpetuates the problem.
91

Tartan Bonds,

05/07/2009 12:31:49
Pedo Pete's weight composition

Flab 60%

Thread worms 10%

Blood 10%

Mucus 10%

Others 10%

FACT
92

Pilrig,

Livingston 05/07/2009 12:38:03
84 - mere semantics.

93

Pilrig,

Livingston 05/07/2009 12:39:04
Prohibition here we come !
94

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 12:41:48
96
Pilrig

"mere semantics."

It is not a tax. This simple fact is not affected in any way by your inability to comprehend or accept it.

95

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 12:43:59
97
Pilrig

"Prohibition here we come !"

Is that what you are proposing? If so, it is a bloody daft idea. Maybe you should find out a little about the effect prohibition had in the US.

96

beech hedge,

blairgowrie 05/07/2009 12:46:17
I am a pensioner of 73 who enjoys a drink in the comfort of my own home why should I be panalised because of the few in our society who cause all the trouble.Under this daft proposal a can of tennents lager will cost at 40p per unit 72p this will affect jobs in Scotland as we have seen with Jonny Walker I have supported the snp all my life but if they go ahead with this I will never vote for them again
97

busbyfh,

05/07/2009 12:49:09
I work directly beside 11 people.....6 of whom vote SNP.
ALL will no longer vote SNP if this bill goes through.
This could well be the biggest shot in the foot of Scottish politics for over three hundred years.

Pay for more policing of boozing (binge drinking etc) but do NOT pi55 people off by partially controlling their "tippling".
Labour must be rubbing their hands !
Can't believe how naive Salmond is being.
98

busbyfh,

05/07/2009 12:56:06
# 67

How can you pay VAT on Excise Duty ?????????????????
Back to the schoolroom please .
99

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:01:05
100
beech hedge

Under the proposals, the minimum price for a would be 80p. Current price for a 440ml can of Tennents Lager at Tesco is 99p.

100

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:02:18
CORRECTION

I will repost this as I made a mess of it first time.

100
beech hedge

Under the proposals, the minimum price for a 440ml can of Tennents Lager would be 80p. Current price for a 440ml can of Tennents Lager at Tesco is 99p.

101

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 13:03:13
As a matter of interest say on a bottle of cider nnow up from £3 to £10 this extra £7 does it go to the retailer ,the manufacturer or government coffers?
102

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:08:25
101
busbyfh

"I work directly beside 11 people.....6 of whom vote SNP.
ALL will no longer vote SNP if this bill goes through."

Even if this is not yet another Tory/BLP alliance lie - which I seriously doubt, your dumb workmates are likely to be vastly outnumbered by those of us who:

(a) have wits enough to realise that normal drinkers are almost totally unaffected by the proposal

(b) have wits enough to realise that alcohol abuse costs us all a lot more than the minimum pricing proposals will

(c) have wits enough to realise that the SNP are putting the interests of the country and the people before narrow party interests. Something I doubt you will even comprehend.

103

blackley,

Edinburgh 05/07/2009 13:13:13
This "punishing the many for the few" argument has run its course I believe. The many who drink sensibly can afford a rise in price - after all, they are sensible people who will have their budget organised - no?

We have to do something about the hedonistic tendency in our country. It's getting beyond a joke.
104

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:16:08
105
Scottish and Proud

"As a matter of interest say on a bottle of cider now up from £3 to £10 this extra £7 does it go to the retailer,the manufacturer or government coffers?"

I have seen no instance of such a large increase. But this is not a tax. The only part of the increase which goes to the revenue is the additional VAT. Which is a tiny amount.

As to the rest, for the most part the price of cheap booze is kept artificially low by the retailer as a loss-leader or something close to it. In other words, the rest of us are subsidising alcohol abuse through a premium on our groceries. As well as paying the costs of the consequences of alcohol abuse.

105

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:19:28
107
blackley

"The many who drink sensibly can afford a rise in price..."

There will be no price increase for the normal drinker. That is the big attraction of minimum pricing. If the price per unit is set at the right level, only drink that is sold at an artificially very low price will be affected. 40p per unit seems to achieve this.

106

GH1,

Scotland 05/07/2009 13:19:45
Is the Scottish Government unaware we are in the middle of the longest recession for decades? Hundreds of thousands are unemployed with no jobs on the horizon. The majority of workers earn less than 20K per annum and are struggling just to put food on the table. Thousands of businesses are going bust every week and they are introducing a new tax on the poor!

The popular three bottles of wine at Asda or Tesco will go up from ten pounds to at least eleven pounds per week. Three bottles of wine a week can hardly be called excessive. But where are law abiding people who have never broken the law in their lives going to get over four pounds a month to pay for it? In these economic times? From their pensions, their low salaries or from income support? I don't think so.

This tax will have little effect on those under age drinkers who are drinking to excess and are responsible for the anti social behaviour. Many of their parents are affluent enough to give them money for booze at the weekends just to get rid of them.

You will have the ridiculous situation where the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland will be forced to pay more in tax for the irresponsible behaviour of the few.

Turn on the telly at night and the place is awash with booze. Eastenders, Coronation Street, Emmerdale. They all revolve around the pub where characters try to get as much booze down their throats in the shortest possible time. The word drink is used routinely. Why don't the politicians try and do something about that?

Nobody likes paying tax and especially new ones and especially when nobody else in the world seems to be paying it. This really would be a tartan tax. And so as a nationalist myself I hate to say it, but I really hope when the time comes, the other parties will have the decency to vote this proposal down.
107

beech hedge,

blairgowrie 05/07/2009 13:21:11
electric hermit
103
Tesco are selling tennents lager at two cases for £16 that is 44p per can. Under the snp proposal a 440ml can that has 1.8units of alcohol will cost 72p
108

Finnzz,

05/07/2009 13:21:20
#105 I suggest you read the article.

It says that the price of drink would not be allowed to retail below 40p per unit. Therefore your bottle of cider would not be allowed to be sold for less than £10.00. No money would go to the government and the retailer would pocket the profit.
Naturally at this price, there would be less bottles of cider sold, especially to youngsters, which is the whole point of the exercise.
109

,

05/07/2009 13:22:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
110

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:39:23
111
beech hedge

The calculation for units is ABV x VOLUME /1000. In the case of Tennents Lager as referred to, this would be 4 x 440 /1000 = 1.76 units. Multiplied by 40p per unit gives 70.4p (Not 80p as stated earlier. An unfortunate typo.)

The price of a 440ml can of Tennents Lager at Tesco is 99p. Source - http://tiny.pl/3342

111

Finnzz,

05/07/2009 13:40:15
#110 GH1

You seem an educated person. You are able to string several sentences together in a coherent manner. But you obviously have great difficulty in comprehending this measure. In fact your post, although literate, is riddled with contradictions.

Firstly try to comprehend that drinking alchohol is not compulsory, whether you are rich or poor.
Secondly, drinking achohol to excess is bad for you, your family and your employer.
Thirdly, its also bad for me as alchohol excesses lead to associated costs for health care, Policing, social services. All which get paid for out of my taxes.

And I can assure you that the 'overwhelming majority' would be delighted in a measure that limits the sale of cheap booze to those least able to afford it.
112

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 13:40:39
#102, Busbyfth.

You should remember the maxim, "It's better to say nothing and be thought to be a fool, than to open your mouth and prove yourself to be one.".

FYI, VAT is a tax on service provided.
113

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 13:41:12
110
GH1

"This really would be a tartan tax."

IT IS NOT A TAX!

114

Tris,

05/07/2009 13:53:57
Charles.... you talk about "the few".

I'm assuming you're not in the city centres much on Fridays and Saturdays. I assume ypou don't go walking in parks or woods in the early evening. I assume you're not watching these people killing themsleves with cheap booze?

It's much more than a few.
115

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 13:59:50
#92 Electric Hermit

"What "revenue"? A tiny amount of additional VAT?"

If someone buys a heap of booze from England and sells it on to his pals at cost price, will this be illegal? And if it is, who will enforce the law? Customs and Excise won't be interested, because no law will have been broken in England. The polis won't be much interested either.

#115 Finnzz

"its also bad for me as alchohol excesses lead to associated costs for health care, Policing, social services. All which get paid for out of my taxes"

But there's already heavy taxes on alcohol. Will they come down if there's less alcoholism? I bet they won't. For years we wre told that smoking cost the health service an enormous sum of money so tobacco was taxed ever more highly. Fewer people smoke now but the health service still wants more money and the tax on cigarettes keeps going up!
116

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 14:04:15
I'm still waiting for some supporter of the SNP government to defend the practice of unnamed government spokesmen making false or misleading statements to the press. (The article at the top of this board is based on a statement like this.) The SNP should be ashamed for picking up this obnoxious habit from Labour. And SoS should be ashamed for not giving the spokesman's name.
117

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 14:11:11
120 the fact that you obviously haunt supermarkets looking for the cheapest bottle of whisky you can possibly find, doesn't actually make the SNP spokesman's statement misleading. Anyway most people I know consider a quality whisky a malt, not a blend.
118

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 14:14:53
While minimum pricing looks promising as part of a package of measures aimed at tackling alcohol abuse, and while 40p per unit seems about right, there is still one aspect of the proposal which could be a sticking point - discounted multi-packs. Basically, this is a bulk-buying discount and not an artificially maintained low price. so it does not seem entirely fair that it should be affected in the same way.

I am not sure if there are any proposals to address this anomaly, if such it be. Perhaps it might be possible to include a provision whereby the minimum unit price is lower where the product is sold in packs which contain multiples of the individual pack, i.e. if sold in multi-packs of 8 or more, the minimum price per unit is reduced by half.

I believe this would go some way to making the system fairer while not impacting its effectiveness. The whole point of the cheap 3-litre bottle of strong cider is that it is accessible with a very small amount of money. Those inclined to take advantage of this are unlikely to be willing/able to fork out for an 8-pack just to get a small discount on each unit.

There may be practical problems that have not occurred to me as yet. But I think it is something that has to be considered.

Of course, "alkies" will always find a way no matter what measures are implemented. But stopping them drinking is not the point. Or, at least, not the whole point. The point is to clearly reinforce the message that alcohol is a potentially dangerous substance which should be treated with caution and respect. We don't do that by flogging it at 17p a unit or less.

119

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 14:22:29
#121 Observer

"most people I know consider a quality whisky a malt, not a blend. "

The people you know aren't very wise. Many single malts are rubbish, only marketed because single malts are fashionable. Premium blends are created by skilful blenders. BNJ, Black Bottle, Campbeltown and several others are better than all but the very best of single malts. I'm not alone in thinking this: Jim Murray, one of the top writers on whisky, thinks so too.

And I don't haunt supermakets looking for whisky or anything else. My point is simply that the anonymous spokesman for the Scottish government is not only a coward hiding behind anonymity. His mistaken too.
120

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 14:24:30
119
Publius

"If someone buys a heap of booze from England and sells it on to his pals at cost price, will this be illegal?"

The legislation is not fully drafted yet, so I can't say what the provisions will be. I would suspect, however, that this would be technically illegal. But how big an issue is it, relative to the issue of alcohol abuse? Not significant, I think.

It probably helps to think of this measure, not in terms of impacting any particular group(s) of people, but in terms of impacting a particular pattern of purchasing and consumption. The group of nine- to fifteen-year olds hanging around trying to scrounge a couple of quid for a bottle of strong cider to share are hardly likely to be organising truck runs south of the border to purchase hundreds of pounds worth in one go.

121

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 14:27:01
120
Publius

"...unnamed government spokesmen making false or misleading statements to the press."

Where is the "false or misleading" statement?

122

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 14:59:42
125 Publius has found a supermarket that sells a blended whisky who's price would be affected by these proposals, so he thinks that makes the SNP's statement in the article that these proposals wouldn't affect quality whisky and good wine misleading.

It's just a bit of nit-picking. Or nat-picking maybe.
123

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 15:02:52
126
Observer

"Publius has found a supermarket that sells a blended whisky who's price would be affected by these proposals, so he thinks that makes the SNP's statement in the article that these proposals wouldn't affect quality whisky and good wine misleading."

And that's it? Pathetic!

124

GH1,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 15:07:11
#115 Finnzz

Please point out the contradictions.

Where did I say buying or drinking alcohol is compulsory? I'm obviously talking about people who choose to buy it and drink it of their own volition. In the comfort of their own homes. That is still their right, isn't it?

Do you really consider the drinking of three bottles of table wine from Asda or Tesco over the course of a week excessive? Even for a single person? So if not, why should they suddenly be forced to pay more for it out of very modest incomes? Because of the behaviour of their next door neighbours?

You keep talking about alcohol excess. If somebody is eating too much and becoming obese, should we put up the price of food? For everybody? That would be absurd.

You say you can assure me the 'overwhelming majority' in the country would be delighted in a measure that limits the sale of cheap booze to those least able to afford it. Do you really believe that the poorest people in society are the ones that drink irresponsibly? How could they afford it? The elderly, the unemployed, the pensioners, the millions of people on minimum wages? You are either saying these are the people responsible for all the ills in society, or else they don't have a right to drink alcohol simply because they are poor. Which is it?
125

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 15:19:27
128
GH1

"...why should they suddenly be forced to pay more for it..."

Under the proposals, the minimum price of a bottle of Ernest & Julio Gallo Merlot (12%) would be £3.75. The current price of a bottle of Ernest & Julio Gallo Merlot in Tesco is £5.89.

Are you using some novel form of arithmetic?

126

Finnzz,

05/07/2009 15:39:27
#128 GH1

"Do you really consider the drinking of three bottles of table wine from Asda or Tesco over the course of a week excessive? Even for a single person?"

Yes, the recommended maximum amount of units per week is 15 for females and 21 for men. The average bottle of wine holds 10 units therefore 30 units 'even for a single person' is damaging to health. (source: Bupa)

You say buying booze is not compulsory yet you then state that those on limited incomes would be forced to pay more..

Regarding eating too much ...
"An extra £40 million for health improvement initiatives, including £15 million directly targed at tackling obesity, was announced (24/1/08)

Other commentators have already made mince of your claims regarding cost.
127

ddmc,

05/07/2009 15:39:36
#52 Alcoholics are one of the most ingenious group of people on the planet, regardless of the situation they always manage to get their hands on booze so if they stay sober enough to drive.........

supermarkets use drink as a loss leader to get you into the store, this was very evident recently when average food prices went up but alcohol prices went down. with combined profits of 10+billion it is small change for the big 4 to fight this in court.

perhaps a more sensible way is not to impose a tarrif of 40p per unit but set a minimum price in general, so it could be set at £3 for anything greater than 8% abv or 40p per unit for drink below 8% abv this way the majority of drink would be unaffected only the fortified wines (bucky) or strong beer/lager/cider (carlsberg special, white lightning etc) would see a price rise
128

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 15:46:58
128
GH1

"Please point out the contradictions."

This may be the kind of thing Finnzz was referring to.

You make a big fuss about consuming alcohol not being "compulsory". But then you go on to try and draw a direct comparison between alcohol and food. The point you completely miss is that even the foods which are known to be harmful in excess, i.e. salt, sugar etc., are nonetheless necessary in some quantity for normal good health.

The same cannot be said of alcohol, for which there is no dietary requirement at all.

129

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 15:51:26
131
ddmc

"...it is small change for the big 4 to fight this in court."

On what grounds?

130

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 05/07/2009 16:14:45
Is anyone aware of any EU law that could stop the implimentation of this law?

I know the EU can act if you subsidise a product or service ,can they act when you try the opposite?

Would not surprise me if some weird human Rights Law was invoked to help the alkies keep getting cheap booze
131

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 16:24:02
134
Scottish and Proud

I was on the verge of treating your post as a serious contribution to the discussion. Then I saw the final paragraph.

132

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 05/07/2009 16:25:58
135 Well forgive me Hermit I am so sorry my post did not meet with your very high standards .
Perhaps we should ask the Scotsman Group to make you the official censor.

My final paragraph is perhaps a little too ironic for your taste.
133

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 16:35:44
136
Scottish and Proud

"My final paragraph is perhaps a little too ironic for your taste."

Irony does not convey well in this medium.

134

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 16:43:16
137 Hermit
Irony does not convey well in this medium.
-------------------------------------------------------no, however pomposity shines through like a beacon!
135

ddmc,

05/07/2009 16:44:07
#133 competition law (i.e internet sales & delivery from england or the EU),restrictive trade (i.e if tesco want to sell drink as a loss leader why can't they) also does the diddy parliament actually have the power to control this or is it devolved to the corrupt westminster, it might mean the end of subsidised drink in the palace of westminster so it will face a lot of obsticales. also drinks companies throw a lot of "hospitality" at politicians so i'm sure there will be a lot of background lobbying.

I do actually agree with some aspects of minimum alcohol prices but it has to be done sensibly & not the typical knee jerk reaction of politicians jumping on the bandwagon
136

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 16:51:41
138
Scottish and Proud

"...pomposity shines through like a beacon!"

As you just proved.

137

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 16:53:15
139
ddmc

"...the diddy parliament..."

FFS! Grow up!

138

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 16:55:49
134
Scottish and Proud

"Is anyone aware of any EU law that could stop the implimentation of this law?"

See #76

139

i wear trousers not a skirt,

05/07/2009 17:01:37
69 heres a link

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland/Vote-against-MacAskill-and-I39ll.5293404.jp

so who telling lies now
140

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 17:04:38
143
i wear trousers not a skirt

What the hell did you hope to prove with a link to yet another piece of Tory/BLP alliance anti-SNP propaganda as published by the Sowhatsman?

141

GH1,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 17:17:46
#130 Finnzz

Personally, for a man, I don't think 3 bottles of wine a week excessive. A bottle of 11% proof works out at 24 units. Drank with an evening meal it's not that much. (slightly over the recommended max)

For the record, in my original post I never mentioned the word compulsory. Of course those on limited incomes will be forced to pay more but only if they are buying it in the first place. That of course was the main thrust of my argument.

You say £11 million pound has been directed to target obesity which is obviously a good thing. But you could say obesity is self inflicted and why should the rest of us be paying for it? But at least the price of food for everybody has not gone up across the board, unlike the proposed increase in the price of alcohol which will hit the poor a lot more than the well off.

Which brings me back to my other point. Why would the 'overwhelming majority' be delighted in a measure that limits the sale of cheap booze to those least able to afford it? I'm still trying to figure out what you meant by that.

You say other commentators have already made mince out of my claims regarding cost. You mean prices aren't going up after all?
142

BROONISDOOMED,

PITS OF HELL 05/07/2009 17:21:40
#66
what about the hon george foulkes assaulting an oap,and a police officer?,whilst drunk!
not only that i have added below how he reacted in ireland whilst being bramms and list
Made, if mermory serves, in Eamonn Doran’s nightclub in Dublin, circa 1996. This was an evening that culminated with the discovery of George Foulkes slumped unconscious in the cloakroom. In fact, the noble lord (as he is now) had made a kind of nest for himself, using punters’ jackets to cushion his comfortably-sized frame and, once awoken, needed a pair of helpers to guide him back to his hotel. Mr Foulkes had been addressing the Dubin University Soccer Appreciation Society and refreshments had been served. Before retiring to the cloakroom he had been in fine voice, belting out the Hearts song while lurching across the dance floor to the bemusement and, it must be said, amusement of all present. Unlike some of the society’s guests, however, Mr Foulkes did not sleep with any of the members.

There is no truth in the rumour that he had a homosexual relationship with the soon to be former Speaker of the House and that was why he was popping up and down on every TV channel in the country the other week.
143

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 17:25:03
145
GH1

"You mean prices aren't going up after all?"

That is precisely the point you seem unable to comprehend. Most prices will not go up. It is a MINIMUM pricing regulation. Prices which are already above this minimum will not change as a result of the measure. Only prices which are (invariably) artificially held at a low price by retailers will rise.

Numerous examples have been provided to illustrate this. Quite why you and others are having difficulty understanding is a bit of a mystery.

144

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 17:33:50
147 hermit
Numerous examples have been provided to illustrate this. Quite why you and others are having difficulty understanding is a bit of a mystery
-------------------------------------------------------
You do not surely expect Unionists to miss any opportunity to bend a truth to attack the SNP Government?
As I have said many itmes if SNP suggested healthy diet and good excercise the Unionists on here would still decry it.
145

GH1,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 17:34:13
#129 Electric Hermit
£5.89 in Tesco? You're getting ripped off mate. I'm talking about the three for a tenner. Try Aldi.
146

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 17:43:26
#125; #126; #127; #147 etc.

147 writes "Most prices will not go up. It is a MINIMUM pricing regulation. Prices which are already above this minimum will not change as a result of the measure."

Yes, they will. Few people will buy or sell rotgut if they can get decent drink at the same price, so prices of drink that costs 11 pounds or so present will rise by a pound or so. All other drink prices will rise pro rata too. So anyone who buys alcohol of any kind will have to pay higher prices too. Before long it will be widely believed that all Scottish drink prices are higher than prices in the south. Sales in Scotland - especially Edinburgh and the borders- will fall. Sales south of the border will increase.

Either the SNP government doesn't know about the laws of supply and demand (idiocy) or it does know and isn't letting in (deception). Which is it Mr Electric Hermit?
147

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 17:49:36
150 Publius
do explain your logic of why prices in Edinburgh and the borders for example will rise by a greater margin than in our largest city of Glasgow?
148

glaswegian at heart,

florida 05/07/2009 17:51:26
36 Dunnie, I don't dispute your point but it's comparing apples and oranges.....punks use guns,,,,,,,,,,,,not all drinkers are punks........I believe the weapon of choice in Scotland is a switchblade,correct me if I'm wrong,,please.I do not own a gun nor do I believe the NRA should have so much clout.No country is without problems,,,,,,,,,,what's your countrys' ?
149

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 17:54:37
149
GH1

"I'm talking about the three for a tenner."

Assuming an ABV of 11%, under the proposals the minimum price would be £9.90.

It shouldn't be too difficult to rip you off as you seem incapable of doing a simple calculation.



150

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 17:57:16
148
Scottish and Proud

"As I have said many itmes if SNP suggested healthy diet and good excercise the Unionists on here would still decry it."

It certainly seems to be more about attacking the Scottish government than commenting on the proposals. Most of the criticism comes from people who clearly haven't even bothered to find out what the proposals are or what the implications might be.

151

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 17:58:39
#151 Scottish and Proud

You've got it the wrong way round. On the long run prices may be lower in Edinburgh than Glasgow. Initially prices will rise by the same amount right across Scotland, but since Edinburgh is closer to the border than Glasgow the loss of business will be greater in Edinburgh. (More Edinburgh folk than Weegies going across the border to buy booze.) This may put downward pressure on prices in Edinburgh offlicences bringing prices down a little.
152

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 18:04:31
150
Publius

None of that makes any sense. You simply assert that prices will rise across the board but present neither evidence nor reasoned argument to support this assertion.

The cheapest drinks will still be the cheapest drinks. Just not by as much as previously. If people decide to pay the smaller difference to move to a different brand the only implication of that is that the huge bottles of cheap, strong cider will disappear from the supermarket shelves. Actually, this is unlikely to happen. But supposing it did, I wouldn't shed a tear for the loss of a product whose only distinction is its appeal to irresponsible drinkers.

153

Publius,

Girvan 05/07/2009 18:05:36
I'm signing off folks and driving down to London.

I'm beginning to think that this minimum price for alcohol thing will be a repeat of the SNP's council tax abolition. Who said history repeats itself, first as tragedy then as farce?
154

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 18:08:13
156
Electric Hermit

"More Edinburgh folk than Weegies going across the border to buy booze."

Unlikely. The people who buy 3-litre bottles of 8%ABV cider at under £2.00 tend not to travel much farther than the nearest sheltered spot to their supply where they can guzzle their booze out of sight of passing police.

155

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 18:09:06
157
Publius

"I'm beginning to think..."

Such a promising start...

156

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 18:10:44
156 Hermit , it might just be an outcome of this proposal that the makers of the huge bottles of cheap booze might just withdraw their product from Scotland entirely.

That in itself would be a good outcome.

Unlike Publius I do not see hordes of Glasgow and Edinbrgh binge drinking types getting a Transit Van and scuttling over the border to stock up and sell to all the other neds throughout Scotland.
157

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 18:27:14
160
Scottish and Proud

"...I do not see hordes of Glasgow and Edinbrgh binge drinking types getting a Transit Van and scuttling over the border to stock up and sell to all the other neds throughout Scotland."

It does seem a highly improbable scenario. And England will inevitably adopt similar measures a year or two behind Scotland.

People will circumvent the minimum pricing regulations. Of that there is no doubt. Nobody expects that this alone will effect some miraculous change in behaviour. It must - and will - be part of a package of measures including the new licensing laws and a massive programme of education and public information similar to the anti-drink driving campaign.

But it makes no sense at all to be telling people on the one hand that alcohol is dangerous and must be treated with respect while market messages are saying pretty much the opposite.

Artificially cheap booze gives entirely the wrong impression. If supermarkets were driven by anything even remotely similar to a social conscience, they would not act in this way. They are not. They are driven entirely by corporate greed. It therefore falls to government to counter the failings of the market.

We've seen rather a lot of this lately. At least the Scottish government is going about it in a way that is likely to be effective while having little negative impact on trade. And in a way that does not actually reward businesses for behaving irresponsibly. Is that not a good thing?

158

GH1,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 19:04:52
#153 Electric Hermit

Why do you naturally assume that people who buy the cheapest drinks are always irresponsible? Has it never occurred to you they might just be the poorest? People like pensioners, the rising tide of the unemployed or the hundreds of thousands on the minimum wage. I mean, what part of this do you not understand? We're talking about ordinary people here.

Also, I think it's you that needs to get the calculator out, matey. You can fool some of the people etc etc. The average bottle of wine in Asda and Tesco under the 3 for a tenner deal is 12.5 % proof which works out at £3.75 a bottle or £11.25 for three, or £45 per month which is a rise of at least £5 a month.

As I said in my original post, where are the groups I just mentioned going to get yet another £5 for their only pleasure in life? Who's going to give it to them? And once prices start rising where do they stop? Next year the minimum cost might go up to 50p per unit. Yes, 50p per unit. What will you be saying then? You want me to work it out for you?
159

Bejjy,

Europe 05/07/2009 19:18:07
It is not for Government, or in this case an Executive, to regulate the price of a commodity that is available in the free market; to do so is contrary to European Law. The Scottish Executive by proposing this move are, whatever Hermit and his ilk say, placing an unfair tax on the people who can least afford it.
160

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 19:31:32
162
GH1

"Why do you naturally assume that people who buy the cheapest drinks are always irresponsible?"

I don't. You have it back to front and upside down. It tends to be irresponsible drinkers who are attracted to the kind of products the measures under discussion are intended to target. Basically, when you are on a quest for oblivion it comes down to the biggest bang for the fewest bucks.

"The average bottle of wine in Asda and Tesco under the 3 for a tenner deal is 12.5 % proof..."

I think you mean Alcohol By Volume (ABV). "Proof" is an entirely different measure which fell out of use a long time ago. Such a foolish error rather undermines your lecture.

Your claim that the "average" is 12.5%ABV is hardly credible. But, if true, it means that the price is being held artificially low as a loss leader. In other words, you are getting it cheap only because other shoppers are subsidising the price. Why should they be forced to do that?

"As I said in my original post, where are the groups I just mentioned going to get yet another £5 for their only pleasure in life?"

That cheap wine is the "only pleasure" for whatever groups you hold in such low esteem is entirely your claim. Alcohol is a luxury. If belts have to be tightened, it is perfectly acceptable that luxuries should be the first things to go.

"And once prices start rising where do they stop?"

The weakness of your argument is evident from the fact that you are obliged to imagine massive inflation in the effort to give it some substance. At a time when deflation is the greater threat, that is a sign of serious desperation.

161

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 19:38:32
163
Bejjy

However much the tiresomely pathetic Tory/BLP alliance apologists scream and stamp their feet, it continues to be the Scottish government. Grow up and get used to it!

The Scottish government is perfectly entitled to seek to implement any measures it sees fit to address issues of public health or social degradation. If it must meet legal challenges in the process, so be it.

Your insistence on calling it a tax is almost as childishly petulant as you refusal to acknowledge the Scottish government.

The proposed minimum pricing is not a tax. In no way does it meet any definition or sense of the term. But I'm sure that won't stop you having your little tantrums.

162

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 19:48:24
166
Cynicus in Exile

The matter of multi-packs has already been addressed. pay attention!

A link was provided to the source for the price quoted. If you chose not to look, that is entirely on your head.

163

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 19:53:30
166
Cynicus in Exile

"So you are talking nonsense on this subject."

You are the one talking nonsense. Mainly because you obviously cannot quite get to grips with the concept of minimum pricing. The whole point is to stop alcohol prices being held artificially low as part of a marketing strategy. You are bound to look a fool when you complain about a measure doing exactly what it is intended to do as if this were some kind of unforeseen consequence.

164

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 20:10:17
#163, Bejjy.

As usual, you're wrong.

Minimum pricing infringes no EU Law or Directive as it does not occasion any unfair trade practice nor does it engender any unfair advantage.

The opposite may, indeed, be the case as it may lead to smaller retailers being able to compete with the supermarket chains.
165

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 20:10:26
Interesting to note that Broon has been mulling over the 50p/unit option which was proposed for England. Not sure if that includes Wales and Northern Ireland.

Another interesting thing is that Asda, Co-op and Tesco in my neck of the woods ask for proof of age if you are under 25. Under 25.

This may hit the corner shops more than the supermarkets as you can buy beer beer and cider cheaper there than the supermarkets (in my neck of the woods). Apart from the offers which tend to be seasonal and relate to summer barbies and Christmas hols.

As far as I am aware, Cider has a preferential treatment with regards to duty which accounts for its cheapness. If so then the proposed minimum pricing sticks it up the UK government.

It also helps the supermarkets to deflect trade from the corner shops (in my neck of the woods).

Btw, Buckie is a fortified wine with caffeine and at 15% ABV would be a very attractive purchase to underage cross-border shoppers from this site:

http://www.thedrinkshop.com/products/nlpdetail.php?prodid=1646

or not.

166

ddmc,

05/07/2009 20:12:52
#141 sorry what euphemism do you use to describe an overrated, basically toothless layer of second rate politicians who couldn't get selected for the UK parliament ? Even Salmond has kept his options open (& his payoff & pension)in retaining his MP's job.

Donald Dewer & Henry Mcleish were the only lie-bour MP's who were prepared to goto the scottish parliament or is it an assembly just like the welsh or NI assembly, which is why the rest of the Scottish MP's weren't interested.
167

,

05/07/2009 20:14:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
168

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 20:25:50
Cynicus in Exile.

Unfortunately, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

It is unfortunate that minimum pricing may affect some people who are responsible. However, as I've said previously, minimum pricing is, only, a small part of the first joined-up Government policy to tackle this problem, in history.

If you have something better, researched, then I would suggest you give this knowledge to the SG or, if you would prefer, another Political Party so that it can be promoted as Holyrood legislation.

If this is not the case, then your complaint will be seen for what it is........simply an attack on something that you, personally, object to; not something in support of the common weal.
169

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 20:27:57
171 Jock you can buy fake ID over the internet, and most girls can pass for 18 when they are about 13 these days. And that's not new, so could I. But when I was buying booze for me and my pals we couldn't have afforded the volume of booze that kids now can.

So unless they are saying they are not going to sell to under 25's then I wouldn't put much faith in it.
170

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 20:29:43
Hmmmm? Just done a search for Buckfast at Asda's price comparison with Tesco etc and came up with a blank.

Must confess to never having stumbled on the stuff in any supermarket. Makes me wonder where the broken bottles - and half bottles - in my neck of the woods come from.
171

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:30:06
169
Cynicus in Exile

"Will Electric Hermit also amend HIS figures?"

I provided sources for my figures and showed how the calculations were done.

172

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 20:32:13
#173, Angus.

I'm surprised that someone from the Isles has a problem spelling a good Western Isles' name.

Perhaps the Isles your moniker refers to are Dogs and Grain?
173

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:32:53
172
ddmc

"...sorry what euphemism do you use..."

Don't need one. It is the Scottish government and remains so no matter how much kiddies such as yourself scream and stamp their feet.

174

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 20:33:45
176, Observer. No, that's not what I'm saying. It could be the local corner shop, who needs the revenue, who is the main culprit in allowing underage sales.
175

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 20:34:28
I am in two minds about all of this. On one hand I disagree instinctively with Government sticking it's nose into people's private business. But on the other hand the real cost of drink has dropped dramatically in the past twenty years, and consumption has increased dramtically too. And the culture around drinking has changed as well. Twenty years ago you were expected to hold your drink, being drunk was a social faux pas, now for many people it seems an obligatory part of a night out.

Alcohol is a drug and it can be a dangerous one. I don't think making it cost 40p a unit is unreasonable in all the circumstances.

176

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 20:36:49
181 Oh it undoubtedly is the local cornershops who sell to underagers, that is a fact. But they don't sell discounted booze, in fact many of them mark it up because they have a captive market. I simply don't understand why more of them don't lose their licenses.
177

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:41:38
174
Cynicus in Exile

The matter of multi-packs has already been addressed. It is no my fault if your attention span is not up to the job.

178

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:44:16
174
Cynicus in Exile

"My post (#166) was a detailed reply to your demand(#12) to "explain how anyone is being penalised.""

In which you totally failed to refute the figures I provide. While I cite sources, you rely on gossip and hearsay. Face it, sonny, you're just not very good at this.

179

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:46:26
175
frank mcbride

"It is unfortunate that minimum pricing may affect some people who are responsible. However, as I've said previously, minimum pricing is, only, a small part of the first joined-up Government policy to tackle this problem, in history."

Nice to see that somebody "gets it".

The trouble with whingers like Cynicus is that they want effective laws that don't affect anybody. They are like spoiled brats.

180

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 20:51:35
183, Observer. The corner shop has to survive, in my opinion.

They do sell discounted booze around where I live but it is not what the kids drink. When I say discounted I mean cheaper than the supermarkets.

Anyway, as someone who was able to purchase tins of beer before I was 18, I am not going to moralise on anything other than the aggressiveness of today's drunken youth. We were discrete and left no detritus.

Thing that worries me is the potential rise of pallets of the stuff as described in 173, specifically aimed at the underaged.
181

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 20:58:16
183
Observer

"Oh it undoubtedly is the local cornershops who sell to underagers, that is a fact."

Hopefully, the new licensing laws will address this as they start to take effect. I think we may see a dramatic change by this time next year.

182

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 20:58:35
187 I wouldn't moralise either Jock, we were all young once, and I doubt they're doing anything that we didn't do, but as you say there is no discretion involved in it any more. It's so in your face, personally I know I am getting middle aged now when I can type I blame the parents and really mean it. When I see the state of some young lassies who are utterly bleutered out their heads and completely incapable of looking after themselves I really wonder what their mothers are thinking of. Anyway, rant over.
183

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 21:01:53
189
Cynicus in Exile

Empty hyperbole.

184

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/07/2009 21:02:42
''You are, like Observer, clearly more than a propaganda mouthpiece for the SG,''

Thanks I'll take that as a compliment. I said I was in two minds, and we are still at the debating stage. I do think we need to ''do something'' whether this is the right or most effective thing to do I am still unsure of.

But I think much of this is cultural and that is a hard nut to crack.
185

,

05/07/2009 21:04:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
186

,

05/07/2009 21:05:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
187

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 21:12:47
#189, Cynicus in Exile.

Two points:

I said that minimum pricing was a small part of the first overall Government strategy to address this problem, in history.

I also said, if you have an alternative proposal that you should pass it on to the SG or, any other political Party of your choice.

You make no comment on these, the substantive points, but continue to complain about the innocents who will suffer.

You may think that something is wrong but, without providing, in context, some alternative, it is simply your thoughts.

The minimum pricing aspect of the SG policy is based on research and evidence and is supported by a majority of experts, and workers, in the field.

As I said, you can't make an ommelette without breaking eggs.
188

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 21:15:12
re 187. And the pallets of stuff.

In 1997 I was working on a construction project in Dunfermline. We finished at 1430 on a Friday. Waiting in the compound car park every Friday was a car with the boot open.

£15 for a carton of cigs, £5 for a bottle of spirits - all EU labelled. They operated out of a warehouse in Kirkcaldy, were raided once and continued trading without any arrests being made.

This is the future of booze for kids - if it is not already happening. And I would not wager that it is not already happening.
189

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/07/2009 21:16:39
#194/194, Sam the Bam frae Greenock.

Why don't you return to BNP speak.

At least it would be more palatable than the garbage you have been uttering, all over the Scotsman threads, all day.
190

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 21:17:06
190
Observer

"I wouldn't moralise either.."

This smacks of a cop-out. Abdicating adult responsibility. Moralising is not something I would favour. But we have a duty to try to protect the next generation from the most potentially disastrous consequences of youthful folly.

Trust me, if a "colourful" past disqualifies a person from giving advice then I am serving a life ban. But then again, what use is the "benefit of experience" that we are supposed to pass on if you've never had any experiences.

191

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 21:29:11
198, Electric Hermit, you appear to be mixing up moralising with your duty as an adult.

Your duty as an adult would be to tell a gang of underage drunken youths to clean up their mess and tone down the noise.

Moralising would be to tut tut against the culture of underage drinking per se.

Now you go and be a responsible adult and try to do your duty.
192

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 21:38:05
Cynicus-various. I would have thought that a wine box from Aldi or Lidl would have been the cheapest option. They do keep for a wee while after opening.
193

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 21:59:59
199
Cynicus in Exile

"Not gossip and hearsay, but first hand research on labels..."

What you claim it says on bottles that you say you have. Hearsay and gossip. By contrast, I provided links to websites listing current prices at various outlets.

You lose!

"my refutation of your claim of ASDA's £2.00/25 cl bottle"

There was no refutation. Again, I provided links to websites listing current prices. You provided... nothing.

You lose!

"Your ignoring (at that time) of the "4 for a fiver" offers..."

The subject of multi-packs was covered, at some length, in a separate post. You were apparently in too big a hurry to make an @rse of yourself to read it.

You lose!

"my refutation of your understatement of the minimum price of 13%(it should be £1.35, by my calculations)"

Simple arithmetic:

ABV x VOLUME / 1000 = UNITS x MINIMUM UNIT PRICE = MINIMUM PRICE PER BOTTLE

13 x 250 = 3250 / 1000 = 3.25 x 40 = 130 which is £1.30 per bottle

You lose!

Even if you had been right about the minimum price, you still lose. Because even £1.35 is still a hell of a lot less than the current price of £2.00 per bottle for which supporting evidence was provided.

"your failure to factor in the heavier ABV wines from the New World (up to 14.5%)"

I didn't provide any examples involving such wines. I could do so. But what would be the point? If all the previous examples haven't helped you understand, nothing will.

"Your unconcern for pensioners and other hard0up folk..."

I would be concerned if they were unable to by food or other essentials. But a few instances of a tiny increase in the cost of a luxury item is not something I'm about to lose sleep over.

Because, unlike yourself, I am not a loser!

194

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:01:54
German sensible drinking:

Wein auf bier das rate Ich Dir

Bier auf wein dann laßt sein
195

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:05:25
204, Cynicus. Oh diddums. And there was me thinking you were talking about poor, sensible pensioners who could only afford 250ml bottles of wine.

I reckon you are just stirring it a tad.
196

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:06:53
The alcohol law should be the same as the cannabis law.

So either make cannabis legal or make alcohol illegal.

How would you like that you fkn hypocrites who want cheap alcohol whilst keeping cannabis illegal.

Bams the lot of you. Shove yer alcohol, it drives you MAD.
197

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:09:41
200
Jock Tamson

"...you appear to be mixing up moralising with your duty as an adult."

That's strange! Since I clearly remember making an explicit distinction. Let me check...

...Yup! There it is,

"Moralising is not something I would favour. But we have a duty..."

See it now?

"Your duty as an adult would be to tell a gang of underage drunken youths to clean up their mess and tone down the noise."

Wow! I didn't realise that there was only the one way of being a responsible adult. And that it involved deliberately courting violence. Which, when you think about it, doesn't seem very responsible after all.

198

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:10:19
Look what happened to the honourable Lord Watson when he got drunk.

The sad git set fire to a hotel and got the jail.

Aye keep alcohol legal and cannabis illegal you two faced pukers.
199

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:14:52
Does Gordon Brown drink alcohol?

The same guy that made cannabis a class B from a class C so as not to give people the wrong idea.

The WRONG IDEA.

Speak for yourself you hypo.
200

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:17:02
209, Electric Hermit.

["Your duty as an adult would be to tell a gang of underage drunken youths to clean up their mess and tone down the noise."

Wow! I didn't realise that there was only the one way of being a responsible adult. And that it involved deliberately courting violence. Which, when you think about it, doesn't seem very responsible after all.]

So you shirk your duty as a responsible adult because you are afraid to carry it out.

Is this not the root cause of the story?
201

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:21:03
If you smoke cannabis for 40 years you can be an above average football player in your 50s.

If you drink alcohol instead for 40 years you'll be lucky if you can sprint 20 yards without being knacked.

That's why alcohol is legal and cannabis is not.

That makes total sense in Westminster, Scotland should know better.
202

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:22:50
212
Jock Tamson

"So you shirk your duty as a responsible adult because you are afraid to carry it out."

You are the one who conflates being a "responsible adult" with being stupid.

I like to think there are ways of being a responsible adult without being stupid.

203

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:24:30
213
Fitba Krazy

You may well have some kind of point. But it is difficult to see how it relates to the topic under discussion.

204

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:26:55
214, Electric Hermit. Are you afraid to go up to a gang of youths with drink in their hands?
205

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:30:15
216
Jock Tamson

Afraid? No. But it is not something I would choose to do. I've already done my share of dealing with violent drunks.

206

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:31:43
215 Electric Hermit,

There is nothing stopping anyone discussing this as part of the topic under discussion.

Why are alcohol prices being increased?

Cos it causes all sorts of hassles for many people and yet is legal.

Cannabis does NOT cause anything like the hassle alcohol does and yet is illegal.

That means cannabis users are unfairly persecuted.

What about their human rights too?

They hypos don't want to discuss that. WHY?

COS THEY KNOW I AM CORRECT.

Alcohol is legal because if it wasn't there would be a rampant black market, so they pander to the whims of the alkys whilst persecuting peaceful cannabis users.

What does that tell you?
207

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:33:25
217, Electric Hermit. I would suggest it is stupid not to go amongst them as a responsible adult.
208

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:33:50
218
Fitba Krazy

"What does that tell you?"

I should buy a "Save the Pothead" T-shirt?

209

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:34:40
219
Jock Tamson

"I would suggest it is stupid not to go amongst them as a responsible adult."

Off you pop, then.

210

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:39:57
220 Electric Hermit.

"I should buy a "Save the Pothead" T-shirt?"

I suppose that's a start.

Would you rather have a mature cannabis plant in your bedroom or a gallon of Electric Soup in your fridge?
211

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:41:44
221 Electric Hermit. Care to join me the next time I go? It's very easy actually.

Empathy is the key.
212

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:42:51
222
Fitba Krazy

"Would you rather have a mature cannabis plant in your bedroom or a gallon of Electric Soup in your fridge?"

I'd prefer few bottles of good ale, to be honest.

213

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:44:51
223
Jock Tamson

What bit of "Done that!" did you not understand?

214

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:47:06
224 Electric Hermit,

Belhaven or Nookie Broon?
215

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:49:23
226
Fitba Krazy

Very partial to a drop of Golden Promise from Caledonian Brewery.

216

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 22:51:58
Sorry, Electric Hermit. You are burned out with regard to future generations.

You might as well pop your clogs now. Your usefulness to society has been reduced to pricing number crunching about supermarket booze pricing.
217

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:53:29
228
Jock Tamson

And you get all that from a few posts in this place.

Or you think you do.

218

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:54:06
227 Electric Hermit,

Sounds tasty, maybe I'll try it efter a wee number and see how it goes.

It might inspire me tae have a shot of my Electric Guitar.

That's what happens when it's good stuff and ye get the mix right.
219

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 22:55:37
230
Fitba Krazy

It's organic. As, presumably, is the other stuff.

220

Fitba Krazy,

05/07/2009 22:58:16
231 Electric Hermit,

Oh yes, absolutely.

If ye get the mix wrang ie. 6 bottles followed by a wee number, ye tend tae jist conk oot for a while.
221

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 23:14:08
smeddum, laddie, smeddum. Eh no, Electric Hermit?

It's not good enough to have the t-shirt - you have to keep wearing it.

Nil illegitimi carberundum and all that.
222

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/07/2009 23:20:41
Night night
223

doublescotch,

U.S.A 05/07/2009 23:49:14
Aw jings gimme a drink:) and #1 was being ironic.
224

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 23:52:12
169
Cynicus in Exile

"The strength of these bottles, especially of New World provenance, can be as high as 14.5%. Four such bottles would yield around 14 units and cost £5.60 under the looney Holyrood proposals."

Thought I'd check this out as I never tire off taking the pi$$ out of you.

Wines of this strength are quite rare. At 14.5% ABV we are almost into the realm of fortified wines. It is highly unlikely that such a wine would be readily available in a 250ml bottle. I certainly couldn't find any listed. A normal 75cl bottle will do just as well for our purposes.

Waitrose have a 2006 Barossa Reserve Shiraz (South Australia) that fits the bill nicely. Under the proposals the minimum price would be £4.35. Calculated as follows -

14.5% x 750ml /1000 = 10.875 units x 40p = 435p

(Note for pedants - the units would normally be rounded up, making the minimum price £4.36)

The current Waitrose price is £8.99.

"The substance of my argument is..."

Non-existent!

225

Phil C,

05/07/2009 23:52:35
Scotland won't get great with this kind of shiote!
226

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 23:55:40
235
doublescotch

"...#1 was being ironic."

#1 was being all he can be.

A kneb hod.

227

Electric Hermit,

05/07/2009 23:58:55
237
Phil C

"Scotland won't get great..."

Scotland is already great. We're just making it better.

228

Phil C,

06/07/2009 00:23:05
#239 Point taken!
229

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 00:47:55
241
Cynicus in Exile

"Now tell us the answer."

You've had the answer, you dullard. You just can't accept it. Whatever way you look at it, the minimum price of this wine, under the proposed regulations, is considerably LESS than the price at which it is currently being retailed. So there would be NO price increase as a consequence of the minimum pricing regulation.

Just as there would be no increase in the price of the vast majority of beverages enjoyed by ordinary people.

You are making a fuss about nothing because you are an ignorant oaf who simply can't understand how minimum pricing works.

230

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 01:21:55
241
Cynicus in Exile

"Gross it up to 100CL (4X 25CL) -A FIVER IN ASDA."

Easily. Based on the previous data, the minimum price of 1000ml of 14.5% ABV wine would be £5.80.

Based on the supermarket price of 750ml of 14.5% ABV wine, 1000ml would retail at £11.99.

Your claim that ASDA are selling 4 x 25cl bottles of 14.5% ABV wine for £5.00 is a lie. The normal price of their 25cl bottles is £2.00. The 4 for £5.00 deal is a SPECIAL OFFER. Which means that the price is artificially low.

None of the wines in the 25cl range is 14.5% ABV. I haven't checked them all, but it is likely they average out about 11.5% ABV. Which would mean that the minimum price for 4 bottles would be £4.60. Still less than the £5.00 special offer price.

Even if we suppose the average ABV to be 12.5%, the minimum price for 1000ml (4 x 25cl bottles) still would not exceed the current special offer price of £5.00.

Only if one selected four bottles of the strongest wine in the range would the minimum price exceed the artificially low special offer price - by a mere 20p.

For the minimum price to exceed the normal retail price of four 25cl bottles it would have to be more than 20% ABV.

Are you beginning to get a sense of just how completely ridiculous you are?

231

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 01:37:43
244
Electric Hermit

CORRECTION

It is possible that there may be a 13.5% ABV wine in the Asda 25cl range. In which case the minimum price under the proposals would be £5.40 - 40p more than the current special offer price.

But bear in mind that this is a SPECIAL OFFER price. It is artificially low because it is subsidised by other shoppers. The whole point of the minimum pricing proposals is to put an end to drink being sold at artificially low prices.

That minimum pricing at 40p per unit would not affect purchasers of wine at SPECIAL OFFER PRICES unless they deliberately seek to make this happen by selecting the strongest wines available, is a measure of just how completely benign the proposal is.

232

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 01:55:37
246
Cynicus in Exile

Give it up, you buffoon! You have been desperately trying by distortion and dishonesty to prove that normal purchaser of four 25cl bottles of wine would be severely penalised by the minimum pricing regulations being proposed. This has been show to be a complete fallacy.

In a doubtless futile effort to get the facts through your dense skull I will repeat...

A NORMAL selection of four assorted 25cl bottles of wine averaging up to 12.5% ABV would cost no more than it does at present. There is no penalty for the purchaser. Even though the product is being sold at an artificially low price.

Your attempted deception has failed.

233

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 02:18:49
248
Cynicus in Exile

Your attempted deception has been exposed.

Squirm all you like, little one. The fact remains that there is no penalty for normal purchasers of alcoholic beverages under the proposed scheme. You had your chance to prove otherwise. You failed.

234

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 02:39:45
246
Cynicus in Exile

"1) a lie? I never claimed ASDA sold these."

I will address this, and then I am done with you. Because I detest liars.

In order to contrive the 16% premium that you claimed people would be paying you had to suppose 1000ml of 14.5% ABV wine being sold for £5.00. But you could not show that this was anything more than a product of your deceitful mind.

The minimum pricing proposals are part of a package of measures motivated by a genuine concern to improve our society. By your despicable conduct you have shown that you are to be counted among the contemptible creatures of the Tory/BLP alliance who would sacrifice the welfare of the Scottish people in the name of regaining the power that was so long abused.

235

MC-B Fife,

Cupar 06/07/2009 10:19:13
There is long standing evidence that the price of alcohol affects the amount consumed as it does for smoking. The increase in price per unit proposed is relatively small for the sensible drinker with a limited income but it would help to reduce intaked among those who drink to a damaging extent. There is no evidence that it would influence an affluent drinker to excess, but it is better to start where it may be effective after all most drinkers to excess start as youngsters when for most, income is limited.
Perhaps there may also be a change albeit small in the excessive drinking ethos. Sorry about the drinks industry but they have a requirement to behave responsibly too.
236

Miss H,

06/07/2009 10:31:43
24 At the end of the day you still cannot grasp that this is nothing to do with taxation no matter how many times it is explained to you. No tax or levy is involved.

Something is wrong with your little gray cells.
237

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:39:30
252
Miss H

"At the end of the day you still cannot grasp that this is nothing to do with taxation no matter how many times it is explained to you."

There is a lot of that. As you will see if you scan through the posts. In many cases I am sure the incomprehension is wilful - prompted by a desire to misrepresent the proposals in order to attack the Scottish government.

But in many instances it seems that the individuals concerned genuinely do not understand what the proposals entail. Which I find very perplexing, as it really isn't at all complicated.

238

Miss H,

06/07/2009 10:39:33
145 The point of minimum pricing is not to put the price up across the board. It is to stop large retailers selling alcohol at a loss to attract more customers - what is known as loss leading.

There is nothing wrong with loss leading in itself but surely anybody with a brain in their head can see that using alcohol as a loss leader is totally irresponsible.

Alcohol is not like other commodities, like bread or milk or eggs. It is a drug. A legal drug yes - but still a drug.

Would you think it was a sensible idea for a drug dealer to offer his or her customers three joints for the price of two in order to increase their custom? Or a pharmacy to offer cut price methadone to boost sales of other products?

I think not so why is it acceptable for large supermarkets to sell alcohol at pocket money prices?
239

MattyMat,

So Cal 06/07/2009 17:33:52
Saying it's a "health issue" is a smoke&mirror cloud for increased tax revenue--- duh--- we're in an econimic crisis, people.
240

Electric Hermit,

07/07/2009 09:45:47
253
MattyMat

"Saying it's a "health issue" is a smoke&mirror cloud for increased tax revenue..."

This is not a tax. It is a minimum price regulation.


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.