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Gordon Brown puts up a fight as Afghanistan war support falls

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Published Date: 06 November 2009
GORDON Brown will today make clear he will not be "deterred, dissuaded or diverted" from Britain's mission in Afghanistan, despite a new poll showing nearly three-quarters of people believe UK troops should be withdrawn within 12 months.
He will use a keynote speech to stress that "we cannot, must not and will not walk away," adding that international efforts "will succeed or fail together".

While the Prime Minister's address will not signal any major change in strategy or policy, it will make clear his determination to see through the mission begun eight years ago.

"When the main terrorist threat facing Britain emanates from Afghanistan and Pakistan, and when – although the sustained pressure in Pakistan, combined with military action in Afghanistan, is having a suppressive effect on al-Qaeda – we know that they continue to train and plot attacks on Britain from the region, we cannot, must not and will not walk away," he will say.

Outlining his personal commitment to the cause, and the importance of training Afghan forces, he will tell his audience: "We will not be deterred, dissuaded or diverted from taking whatever measures are necessary to protect our security.

"We will not give up this strategy of mentoring, because it is what distinguishes a liberating army from an army of occupation."

His speech comes as a poll of more than 1,000 Britons revealed opposition to the war had risen sharply in the past fortnight.

Some 35 per cent think all UK troops should be withdrawn immediately, up from a quarter two weeks ago. A further 38 per cent say most British troops should be withdrawn soon, with the rest pulling out within the next year or so, according to the Channel 4 News/YouGov survey.

The debate over Britain's role in Afghanistan has intensified after the murder of five British soldiers in Helmand by a "rogue" police officer on Tuesday.

Former foreign office minister Kim Howells has said Britain would be better off withdrawing its troops and diverting the resources to strengthening internal security.

But General Sir Nick Parker, Britain's most senior commander in Afghanistan, echoed the Prime Minister's defiance when he said any change in military strategy in light of the deaths would be "very damaging".

His comments came as another British soldier was killed in an explosion in southern Afghanistan. The serviceman, from 3rd Battalion The Rifles, died near Sangin yesterday morning, taking the total UK death toll in the conflict to 230.

In Helmand and the UK, the fallout from the attack on the unarmed soldiers inside a secure checkpoint continued.

Tributes were paid to the fallen men, who included a guardsman about to celebrate his 19th birthday and a senior non-commissioned officer who was due to become a father for the fourth time. Colleagues in Afghanistan said the deaths had left them "on edge", as commanders on the ground began reassessing vetting procedures for applicants to join the Afghan National Police (ANP).

British forces were continuing a "huge manhunt" for the gunman, known as Gulbuddin, with surveillance drones, MI6 intelligence officers and special forces liaison officers all involved.

There are suspicions he may have been smuggled out of the area along well-established narcotics-smuggling routes used by the Taleban.

However, the testimony of a police commander in the village of Shin Kalay appeared to undermine suggestions the shootings had been premeditated or orchestrated by the Taleban.

Haji Manan, commander of the checkpoint where the five soldiers were killed, said Gulbuddin, 26, had been acting alone and escaped the scene on foot, dismissing suggestions he had worked with an accomplice and fled on a motorbike.

Mr Manan revealed the rogue officer should have been moved to a different base days before the attack, but troops were too busy fighting the Taleban.

Security sources claim Gulbuddin may have opened fire after getting a "dressing down" from the British soldiers.

In Helmand yesterday, troops from 2 Company, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards were still training ANP staff. They said that, while the atmosphere had changed, they remained determined to do their job.

Platoon commander Lieutenant Ben Rutt said: "The blokes are perhaps slightly more on edge, more anxious, but they understand that we have to continue with the job. It's crucial we don't tar all the ANP with one rogue brush. A lot of these guys are just trying to do their duty. Unfortunately there's some really rotten apples in the bunch."

In an interview with BBC1's Politics Show to be broadcast on Sunday, Lieutenant General Jim Dutton, deputy commander of international forces in Afghanistan, said the killings would initially lead to greater distrust of Afghan forces but said such incidents were "very rare".

Meanwhile, an expert on the Afghan military operation said the West had to radically scale back its hopes for the country.

Professor Anatol Lieven, from King's College London, said: "The best we can now hope and plan for is a reasonably functioning military state that can hold the north and west of the country, and a few Pashtun cities like Khandar and Jalalabad, and restrict the Taleban to the Pashtun countryside."

Pride and tears for the five who died

CPL NICHOLAS WEBSTER-SMITH


THE 24-year-old, main image was described by his family as "one of the most loving, generous, kind-hearted men you could meet".

Friends of the Royal Military Police corporal, from Saundersfoot in Pembrokeshire, left postings on his Facebook page expressing their shock and disbelief. A series of poignant messages between him and his girlfriend, Emma Robinson, before he died were also on the site.

During his short military career, he undertook operational tours to Afghanistan and Kosovo, as well as volunteering for a six-month deployment to the Falkland Islands.

WARRANT OFFICER CLASS 1 DARREN CHANT

The 40-year-old who was due to become a father for the fourth time, died on the day he was to be told he had won a commission as an officer.

The London-born Grenadier Guardsman carried a colleague whose leg was blown off in a bomb attack more than a mile to safety earlier this year.

He was reportedly on a shortlist of three to become Academy Sergeant Major at Sandhurst. His wife Nausheen, said she was "immensely proud" to say he was her husband.

GUARDSMAN JIMMY MAJOR

The Grimsby soldier had been due to turn 19 next Thursday and his father, Adrian, said they had already posted presents to Afghanistan for him.

Asked if the many tributes left in the garden of the family home helped with dealing with his son's death, he said: "They do because it means people are thinking of him." A Union flag has been fluttering on the side of the family house since the day his son had gone to Afghanistan.

CORPORAL STEVEN BOOTE

The 22-year-old was a Territorial Army soldier from Birkenhead who had volunteered to deploy to Afghanistan. He worked as a security team leader at a Tesco store and had hoped to join the police when he came back to Britain.

The motorbike enthusiast's parents, Margaret and Anthony, said he would "light up a room with a single smile", adding: "Steven, we are all so proud of you and you will always be our hero."

Cpl Boote's company commander, Major Phil Hacker, said:

"He inspired confidence in all those he served with and we are all so proud and feel so humble to have served with him."

SERGEANT MATTHEW TELFORD

The father of two and Grenadier Guardsman, described as a "gentle giant", joined the army at 16, and was 37 when he died.

His widow, Kerry, said she did not know how to explain his death to their four-year-old son, Harry. "I don't want to say that nasty men have killed daddy – I want to be able to tell him that he's in heaven now and that he's gone to be with the angels," Mrs Telford said.

'You were the best ever, Tam – brave soldier, son, good friend'

THE mother of a soldier who died weeks after being wounded in Afghanistan yesterday remembered her "brave" son as "the best there ever was".

Corporal Thomas Mason, 27, known as Tam, was caught by an improvised explosive device in Kandahar province on 15 September.

Cpl Mason, of the Black Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, died in Selly Oak Hospital in Birmingham on 25 October.

More than 300 mourners packed into Trinity Parish Church in Cowdenbeath for his funeral yesterday.

During the service, the Rev Nicola Trail read a tribute written by his mother, Linda Buchanan.

In it, she spoke of her unending love for her son and said: "You are the best there ever was, Tam – brave soldier, son, good friend.

"I know in time the pain we feel from losing you will end. So we will struggle by without you, without your laugh, your smile.

"I know we'll meet again, Tam, even if it takes a while."

Mrs Buchanan was joined at the service by Cpl Mason's 21-year-old widow, Kylie, and a large number of family members and colleagues.

Meanwhile, a memorial to another Black Watch soldier killed in Afghanistan was unveiled yesterday at his former high school.

Private Kevin Elliott, 24, died in a rocket-propelled grenade attack in Helmand Province in August.

His family and friends were joined for the occasion by staff and pupils at Braeview Academy in Dundee. Major Ronnie Proctor of the Black Watch Association and Dundee's lord provost, John Letford, also attended the ceremony to pay their respects.

In Wootton Basset, the body of an explosives expert killed while defusing a bomb in Afghanistan was repatriated.

Christina Schmid, the widow of Staff Sergeant Olaf Schmid, said he was a hero and a "preserver of life".

"He was a very brave man, there was no other man above him, I am so proud of him," she said.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 November 2009 1:37 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Afghanistan
 
1

Incandescent,

06/11/2009 02:17:14
#1 G-Tone wasn't TramsAreFab, the Mandy Havers-Spittle PR shill who had their login deleted yesterday. He's probably just spent the day on a double-decker bus, confusedly dreaming of the day he'll be able to ride on the non-existant top deck of a shoogly peg tram.
2

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/11/2009 04:59:36
Neighbours Monica and Jane visited Helmand Province well before the troubles awingnd only experienced hospitality and respect. They now find running a craft business near Garvie Island far more stressful!

Given a clear, defined objective, and proper gear the scottish RESERVE (ex Scots Guards, Black Watch etc.) will swing into action as required. Meanwhile we've gone native and are rabitting, ferreting, lurching into all airts and out with the STICKS! "Want to try us, Fort William?"
3

Nelson51,

Newcastle 06/11/2009 06:47:21
Gordon Brown just cannot do anything right, he should be sacked.
4

madrab,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 07:09:37
How many more soldiers will die without purpose before Brown is voted out of office?
5

John Cameron,

St Andrews 06/11/2009 07:18:44
"Gordon Brown will today make clear he will not be "deterred, dissuaded or diverted" from Britain's mission in Afghanistan, despite a new poll showing nearly three-quarters of people believe UK troops should be withdrawn within 12 months."
I suppose the only thing that would make this arrogant idiot change his mind would be having one of his sons in the front line. I noted that none of the Blair boys were thrown in as cannon fodder in their father's endless, unwinnable, stupid wars.

6

Stonefish,

Prince George, BC 06/11/2009 07:21:47
What is it with these guys, the British people are overwhelmingly opposed to this militarism in Afghanistan, so are Canadians and the American people are comparing it to the unwinable Vietnam fiasco and yet the leaders of these countries have a single finger answer to popular demand.
7

tony tucker,

france 06/11/2009 07:31:38
GBrown in his usual "I know best -- you know nothing" stance ... he cannot tell teh difference between pig-headedness and leadership ... Afghanistan, the EU referendum-that-wasn't, spend your way out of trouble with other people's money ... the list is endless ... who will rid us of this tiresome man?
8

Boy Wonder,

06/11/2009 07:36:50
I can see an understand why our troops went into Iraq and are in Afghanistan at present. Islamic fundamentalists are exporting their brand of "religious" thought beyond their borders. They are willing to kill anyone in the process of winning their personal crausade against the West. I get that! I really do!

What I don't get is why our fotces are fighting them according to "civilised" rules of combat, when the enemy is not!

Afghanistan has beaten the might of the Soviets in the past. Go further back and you learn the British Empire at its height couldn't do it ... and 2,300 years ago, the legendary warrior, Alexander the Great, perhaps the greatest soldier of all time, couldn't take Afghanistan.

Very simply, if the coalition troops hope to beat the Taliban and their faith war (which is what this is) then they have to adopt the same tactics of the tribespeople who know better!

Let's stop them killing our people ... and bomb the b***ards into fiery oblivion!!!

9

New Danielrober,

06/11/2009 07:37:21
Unless there is soon to be a new moral breakthrough where all men and women are treated equally and crime stops, people are going to sin.

Taking drugs is a sin, and should not be treated as a crime. Funds are supplied to terrorists, war lords and self styled drug lords. Surely if the choice is between poppy fields supplying the Taliban with machine guns and airplane tickets, verse taxed stoners falling over because they have over consumed - the choice seems to be simply, but it’s not really. It’s hard to say mistakes were made because circumstances demanded a set series of actions.

Everyone now says we should have saved the oil money from the 1980’s and early 1990’s to create an oil fund – HOW? Our products were not been bought (in spite of good prices and quality), those who were earning money did not want to pay taxes and families needed to be fed. So the oil money was spent keeping the wolf from our national door in spite of more than a few spendthrifts.

We are in the same situation now – HOW can we not fight knowing to abandon this area with our current laws will see Europe, the Middles East, East Asia and South Asia flooded with heroin? We need to keep up this effort and change the drug laws. This is not Vietnam, but another Peru.

This is a Drug war wrapped up by drug dealers in flags and pretending to be politics.
10

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 07:40:42
Was there a threat of Islamic terrorism against the UK prior to 9/11 and The Labour Govt.'s subsequent crawl up Bush's Ba--side?

If there was the government kept very quiet about it.

Now we have Culpability Brown, Saviour Of The World etc. arguing that our presence is Afghanistan is preventing terrorist attacks against The UK.

Perhaps if we hadn't gone into Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place there wouldn't have been a terrorist threat.
11

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 07:43:15
In the meantime, in Glasgow NE while being devoid of any stated policies Labour seem to think that the most important issue facing the UK is where the SNP candidate was born.
12

watcher,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 08:04:36
It doesn`t really matter where the SNP candidates or their MP`s are born, they all vote with the Tory`s regardless of issue.
13

Ben Thehoose,

06/11/2009 08:09:08
If we lived in a democracy the troops would be home long ago.
14

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/11/2009 08:10:15
"After Kosovo, I'm not fighting in any more of Britain's stupid wars."

-- Billy MacKenzie, Paratrooper

We can certainly win in Afghanistan with the right tactics and RESPECT for the Afghani people. We need to learn Dari!
15

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 06/11/2009 08:11:10
14 -"Sigh..." - every day, you post the same lie.
16

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 06/11/2009 08:17:21
#190 - You need a lession to tell the difference between the Taliban, Al Queada and Afghan warlords. It is not a good mix and why we will never win there.

"Let's stop them killing our people ... and bomb the b***ards into fiery oblivion!!! "

Bomb who? They dont exactly walk about with T-shirts with "Taliban Rule" on them do they? Every innocent vicim killed acts as recruitment for the Taliban.

17

Temple,

Italy 06/11/2009 08:18:11
# 13 In the meantime, in Glasgow NE while being devoid of any stated policies Labour seem to think that the most important issue facing the UK is where the SNP candidate was born.
-----------------------
fully agree with Gus
the 12 November for the candidate of Scotsman.com will be a defeat that they will remember for the next 20 years
at least
18

hibbie,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 08:37:01
Get out of Afganistan bring in the death penalty for drug trafficing and terrorism, use the soldiers back home to inihilate the drug system and terrorist cells within the country, make immigration and actually getting in to britain a hell of a lot harder and then we wouldn't have the situation we are in now, Brown is an aaaarse.
19

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 06/11/2009 08:46:08
Brown should resign and recant by signed confession that he a) engaged in illegal wars with Tony Blair and George Bush b) let anyone into the country including the people who are most likely to commit terrorist acts c) does not listen to common sense d) does not listen to the people he purports to represent and is terminally arrogant and a total failure.
20

Ricky H,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 09:03:27
Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, our support fully for the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, pumping trillions into failed banks...whilst I probably don't have the knowledge to debate the pros and cons of each of these issues to any great degree, I do know one thing. I'm pretty sure that none of these things were presented in a manifesto or pledge when the current government came to power. Each of these huge issues, that ultimately costs the UK lives and livelihoods, should have gone to a democratic vote to understand whether or not the UK tax payers wanted to be involved or not. Surely we should decide...well, there will be a chance for us to decide next year and I urge everyone to use the vote wisely and show our arrogant leaders what we really think. Labour, Tory, SNP, Lib Dems...whatever, vote 'none of the above' if needs be. If there are none of the main parties worth voting for, then why vote for any of them. The 'raving loonies' might do a better job than we're currently seeing. This country needs a real shake-up with none of the tinkering around the edges. Tough decisions need to be made and I think we're all fed up with the spin and lies we get fed every day.
21

Jings MacCrivvens,

06/11/2009 09:20:08
Yet again Gordon Brown will stick two fingers up at the public, saying "up yours" as he pursues, on behalf of his odious and pernicious Labour Party, its relentless spree of killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of innocents. Not content with that and with banrupting the economy he continues to throw billions of pounds at a war in Afghanistan which is clearly being lost.
22

MNS,

Scotland 06/11/2009 09:47:41
Death is Depressing.
(Annual road deaths in U.K. - Just over 2,940 people died in 2007) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7475893.stm
'Make your own mind up about war!'
23

Sedov,

06/11/2009 10:01:59
A war we cannot win, never could, never will.

Lets give the families of our forces the greatest Xmas present of their lives.

Bring them all home and leave Afghanistan to the Afghans.
24

Liberty Valance,

06/11/2009 10:14:10
Please Mr. Brown,take your troops out of Afghanastan Iraq and Ireland and mind your own bloody business.


Oh! and apologise to the loved ones of the dead servicemen and women.
25

Liberty Valance,

06/11/2009 10:24:49
#25 Good post.
You talk too much sense for the warmongers in Westmidden.As long as none of their loved ones are lying bleeding to death at the side of a road in a country that they should never have been in in the first place, then the war mongers will continue to sacrifice the sons and daughters of other people.

There are people not born yet, who some day will take up arms against British occupation of their country.

That is especially applicable to Ireland, where the struggle has lasted seven hundred years.

This is all very sad but inevitable.

Rudyard Kippling was one such war monger,until he lost his own son to war.He then realised the full horrors of his thinking.
26

Liberty Valance,

06/11/2009 10:27:26
#20 Sounds like Nazi Germany !
lol!
27

Liberty Valance,

06/11/2009 10:28:22
#20 But I like your plan! Tee Heee Heeee!
28

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 06/11/2009 10:31:46
#20 - Why stop at terrorism and drug trafficing, why not being in possesion of a Heart of Midlothan scarf?

Harping on about the "death penalty" is futile, it will never come back and nor it should, it doesnt aid in sorting out the mess we are in.

Finally, please tell me how the death penalty would deter a suicide bomber?? Please tell me I am very interested in how you can answer that.





29

tommy M,

Scotland 06/11/2009 10:34:36
The north britishman is deluded, pigheaded beyond arrogance and deranged. He is a very dangerous man.Despite bankrupting Britain he continues to pour money into fighting these illegal wars. Utter madness! What on this earth is it going to take to get him to resign?

What's wullie bain's position on this i wonder? Or is he too busy campaigning negatively against the SNP on Holyrood issues?
30

Toast,

06/11/2009 10:56:49
Is Brown a total moron,how may of our brave troops are going to have to die to satisfy his ego,this war is unwinnable the people of this country have had enough of his enelected arrogance,he has no strategy,no goals,all he is good at are U-turns,how many more must die before he chandes his mind this time.
31

Arthur G,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 11:04:05
#14

Watcher, instead of returning to your well worn and inaccurate assessment of the SNP's voting tendencies, why not go away and learn that the plural of "Tory" is "Tories", not "Tory's"?

Perhaps, if we were to introduce the judicious use of an electric cattle prod for the unforgiveable sin of the erroneous use of the apostrophe, we might see a drastic reduction in this irritating grammatical fuax pas.
32

Boab,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 11:04:06
'... the main terrorist threat facing Britain emanates from Afghanistan and Pakistan ...'

The 2005 bombing in London which killed over 50 people took place on the day of Abu Hamza's trial at the Old Bailey. It was probably carried out by UK citizens under supervision of an experience Al-Qaeda operative, who had received military training from MI5 and CIA in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

Hamza had been openly training recruits for terrorist operations since 1998, even giving interviews to the press. So, while it's true that Afghanistan / Pakistan is a place for training Islamic terrorists, there's no evidence that sending our troops to die in Helmand makes Britain a safer place.

Terrorism is a crime, you can't declare war on it.
33

Arthur G,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 11:10:06
..and yes, that should read, 'faux pas'...
34

Arthur G,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 11:31:22
#31 Tommy M

Brown won't resign and there are none in his cabinet who will summon the men in grey suits (or white coats) to remove him, forcibly. These cowardly cretins are too busy jockeying for the position of who will be the future ‘heid bummer’ of the Labour opposition, rising from the wreckage of the present administration.

This is actually a worse situation for the country than was left us, following the disintegration of Jim Callaghan’s administration in 1979 and we all know to what that led.
35

Temple,

North Italy 06/11/2009 11:37:24
i have a technical question : the British soldiers in Afghanistan are volunteers or they can refuse ? Because the Italians over there are volunteers for 5.000,00 Euro per month , just ask.
36

The Strategist,

06/11/2009 11:45:24
The problem is isn't it that whether the Afghan war is or is not the morally right thing to do this Govt has completely wrecked its chances of support by penny pinching on the equipment supply and the number of personnel involved both in Aghanistan and previously in Iraq.

I'd like to be able to say this was another consequence of Labour's destruction of the economy but in the case of the Nimrod fiasco that all happened pre credit crunch which in fact makes it even worse.







37

loosehead,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 12:08:12

Comrade Brown says "We can not, will not, walk away. International efforts will succeed or fail together." Succeed in what, he doesn`t say, but it`s comforting to know that, when we inevitably fail in whatever it is (and this is the first time he has even mentioned that possibility), we`ll be doing so in good company.
38

Jo Public,

06/11/2009 12:10:50
#37. Half the problem is that Britain supplies the most troops (apart from USA)and many many more than the likes of Italy, France and Germany. It's an absolute disgrace to be part of Nato yet shoulder a disproportional amount of the burden, like Britain does.
39

Jo Public,

06/11/2009 12:13:48
#37 And British troops would be lucky to get paid half the amount you say the Italians are getting, because Government coffers are too busy bailing out their rich banking friends.
40

Temple,

Italy 06/11/2009 12:18:22
yes Jo but u didn't answer if they are volunteers or not
41

malcyh,

06/11/2009 12:35:10
We are doing it to protect the UK. If they brough the soldiers hoem we could be protected here. Indeed if we had an imiigration policy we would keep terrorists out before they came to the UK. Jts let the countries get on with their own wars.
42

Jo Public,

06/11/2009 12:47:33
#43. malcyh. Stand for election - you'll get millions of votes.
43

Lys Alf,

Scotland 06/11/2009 13:27:18
The security threat to Briton is not rooted in Afganistan.

Our terror threat is an internal one, the enemy has been embedded in our multicultural society for a few generations already.

Remeber the mass murderers who perpetrated 7/7 were settlers and the descendants of settlers from Africa and Asia that had been born and educated in Britain.

We need the troops to ensure our security on our home soil, that is where the enemy is!
44

Lys Alf,

Scotland 06/11/2009 13:28:42
Post #45

Apologies, please substitute Britain for Briton in the first sentence of my post!
45

ppink,

06/11/2009 14:11:37
When I studied political science there were two popular exam questions

1. Why is the US President the only real American?
and
2. Why is the UK PM a virtual dictator?

I never really found out the answer to the first question perhaps some of he cleverer punters here can help me, but I was astonished that it was commonly accepted by university professors et all that the total power that used to be held by the Monarch was vested without any constitutional checks at all in the Prime Minister under the guise of 'Crown in Parliament'

This is a euphemism for the virtual dictatorship we live under and which Brown is the latest example.

Until we have a written constitution with checks and balances, PR replacing FPTP, and a drastic curtailing of patronage, parliamentary fascism will continue indefinitely whether it is Blair, Brown or Cameron.

Never mind the expenses - that is very small beer. This gross monstrous PM role has to be cut down.

I'm afraid it is time for (virtual) pitchforks. In it's own little way, this forum (despite all Johnson Press efforts) represents one the first tiny electronic steps in real democracy.

A really determined Megalomaniac can take this country to War, ratify major treaties, bankrupt the country, expose it's citizens to terrorism, all without their consent, and what happens?

A fat pension, huge sinecures, and a seat in the House of Lords!



The fifth (or as we used to say 'filth) estate has failed us.

Take to the streets, or take to the internet.

Get off your backsides citizens before Brownism leaves us all in the streets, hungry and broke and with blood on our hands.






46

,

06/11/2009 15:33:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Temple,

North Italy 06/11/2009 16:40:00
ebbi : they remove mine also , words as Israel , zionism exc. are dangerous , it was dangerous for the last 65 years and i guess it will be also for another 20 or 30 years or at least before a New Order will take place.
48

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 06/11/2009 19:04:48
Any chance Brown can explain what is expected to be achieved in the next 4 years and will that mean the Afghanis will no longer fight each other as soon as we leave, whenever that will be.
49

Thistledhu,

06/11/2009 23:28:58
too many people sticking there heads in the sand here .

Afghan falls pakistan will quickly follow the result of that a nuclear capable Al queda/taliban and all that would entail.

we either win in afghan or withdraw and await our fate at the hands of nuclear capable terrorists

ITs that simple.
50

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 07/11/2009 08:01:23
#49
Brainwashed or what?
I suppose you think there is still AMD's in Iraq?
Or the whole of the Orient will fall to communism if the Vietcong wins, oh wait a minute, they already have, 25 years ago and gusess what, nothing happened.

 

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