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Pressure on Swinney as doubts grow over funding of new £4bn Forth bridge

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Published Date: 07 December 2008
JOHN Swinney was last night under pressure to explain how he intends to finance a new £4.22bn Forth bridge as more confusion surrounded the Scottish Government's plans to raise cash for major public building projects.



With the economy plunging into recession and Scotland's budget facing £1bn cuts over the next two years, opposition politicians questioned if the Finance Secretary could deliver Scotland's most expensive construction scheme. Despite reports sug
gesting Swinney intends to knock £1bn off the cost of a third bridge across the river when he unveils his Scottish Transport Review this week, doubts remain whether the ambitious plan can be financed.

"Swinney has to indicate how he proposes to fund this," said Des McNulty, Labour's transport spokesman. "What kind of practical arrangements do they have in place?"

Swinney himself is said to be growing frustrated over the problems surrounding his plans to finance capital projects.

One method of funding believed to be under discussion is 'shadow tolling', whereby a private company would pay to build the bridge and then charge the Government an annual fee according to the number of motorists who use it.

The scheme would avoid the huge upfront costs of building the bridge, but would leave ministers open to accusations they were effectively buying the bridge on 'hire purchase'.

Yesterday it was suggested the Government was planning to announce a £1bn reduction from the overall cost. It was claimed the cost could come down as contractors would be prepared to work for a reduced rate due to the financial crisis.

But Alison McInnes, the Liberal Democrat transport spokeswoman, said: "My very real fear is that we are not going to get a commitment to the project. I think they are struggling very much to come up with the cash. They have over-promised on transport and it is a very significant problem."

The bridge, which will stretch for more than a mile over the Forth, is to be built alongside the existing but ageing road bridge and its sister – the red steel and granite rail bridge, built nearly 120 years ago.

Doubts over funding have been intensified by the chaos surrounding the new funding mechanism for public projects.

The new bridge has been billed as the ultimate test for the Scottish Futures Trust (SFT), which the SNP has introduced to replace private finance initiatives and public private partnerships as the Government's method of building schools and hospitals.

But ministers have yet to announce whether the crossing will be financed by the SFT, which has been subjected to a barrage of criticism since it was established in September with merchant banker Sir Angus Grossart as chairman. It had been envisaged that the SFT would be funded by local government-issued bonds, but critics have said it has been downgraded to a body to lobby Government for resources.

McNulty said:

"If they can't use the Futures Trust to finance the crossing, it will raise serious questions about the trust and whether it can deliver major projects. The problem that they have with the trust is that they have sold it as a funding mechanism and it seems to be effectively an advisory mechanism."

According to a memo seen by Scotland on Sunday, Grossart recently admitted to local authorities that the SFT does not yet have access to any funds.

Jeremy Purvis, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The trust is an extremely expensive empty vessel. Its cost of £23m is a scandalous waste of money when all that it now appears to be is a lobby arm."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "All I can say is that these proposals will be outlined on Wednesday in Parliament by John Swinney."





The full article contains 626 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 December 2008 9:46 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

moral___superiority_,

06/12/2008 19:59:49
For those of you that are not sure how the Scottish Futures Trust will work, here is a brilliant explanation from Christine McKelvie of the SNP on Newsnight.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9W0bmqg1owI

Like her hapless SNP colleagues you can see for yourself, she has no idea how it will work either.
2

somerferg,

home 07/12/2008 00:15:14

#1 - tell you what lets go back and have wee Joke McFlannel and his troup of red rosette wearing monkeys in charge again. I mean just look at how much they did for Scotland !! hapless just deosn't even come close to describing that lot.
3

,

07/12/2008 00:17:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 00:23:04
Moral superiority is very adept at internet navigating eh, he/she/it has posted hours ahead of anyone else. What a shame it missed an opportunity to say anything interesting.
5

The Online Scot,

... Not The Herald ... 07/12/2008 00:31:29
moral___superiority_,06/12/2008 19:59:49

The peculiar thing for me is how this individual manages to post a comment four hours before the article appears.

Is this typical?
Seriously, how is this done?

I'm not at all bothered by the article, it is par for the course for The Scotsman titles.
6

Wardog™,

07/12/2008 00:31:46


How many years did it take Lib/Lab ministers to announce the construction of a new bridge....oooops....that's right in over eight years they failed to do it.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good old rant.
7

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 00:33:20
I think there is a fairly clear link between this story, and the one about Tavish Scott and the Council of Economic Advisors arguing for the Scottish Government being given borrowing powers.

Forgive me if that is stating the blindingly obvious.
8

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 00:35:52
#1

Here a wee puzzle for you.

See if you can guess which party runs this local council.

From the Times,

"A council official with responsibility for helping the homeless has evicted elderly and frail tenants from their cottages and moved into one of them at a low rent with a fellow senior housing officer.

Council officers decided to let the vacated sheltered housing in a prime city-centre spot to their colleagues and advertised the places on the council’s intranet without seeking the approval of elected councillors, a Times investigation has found.

Now Norwich City Council is examining how Kristine Reeves, a £52,000-a-year head of neighbourhood and strategic housing, has become the tenant of a one-bedroom bungalow with a £47-a-week rent."

Here's a clue for you - it's not a Scottish Party!
9

The Online Scot,

... Not The Herald ... 07/12/2008 00:37:55
From Iain MacWhirter:

"But these pale into insignificance next to Johnston Press, which owes a reported £465 million. Johnston Press shares used to sell at nearly 500p - and dipped last week to below 7p. You could probably buy the lot - The Scotsman, Scotland on Sunday, Edinburgh Evening News and about 300 local titles - for £40 million."

One wonders if this title and it's daily sister can continue with their brazen propaganda.

10

Hmm ...,

07/12/2008 00:49:31
... I seem to recall that the "cost" of the bridge increased by over £1 billion (back in the bad old days of the Labour / LibDem coalition) because they insisted that this new "road "bridge would have to carry tram lines! This was in the days of the cost escalating from the original £1 billion prediction - Labour were basically trying to jack up the cost so that they wouldn't have to improve the road network.

Drop THAT daft idea and we have reduced the cost by at least that amount. Build in the suggested reduction due to the economy and we have halved the cost that Labour left us with!

And I am sure that we can improve on that with competent project management - and no more daft ideas!
11

Guga II,

Rockall 07/12/2008 01:04:08
Methinks that #1 is also AM Squared and Roofarse Blowfly, as they all seem to be able to post comments (a.k.a. garbage) hours before the articles are published on the Internet.
12

TheTerminator,

07/12/2008 01:12:01
Other doubts as well.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C5XBhL6qC2o
13

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:13:40
Ha ha ha ha ha- The idiots that come on these threads and blame the Herald and Scotsman for the mess the snp are in is a joke and shows the desperation from the snp activists, some of you change your names on the threads but post the same rubbish as always, blame anyone except the snp.lol.

STOP THE SNP

14

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:17:45
Are you still awake Sammy ? Your mummy will be cross.
15

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:29:49
18#

Observer you are up late drinking carlsberg special brew and smoking the old cannabis, i take it that cold is better.
16

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:32:28
Cold gone, red wine never super-lager, and I plead the fifth amendment on what I'm smoking. But retiring soon, so goodnight little loser.
17

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:34:38
19#

Herald Troll using upteen names, i do not know all you fake posters what is one to do.

Anyway lets sprinkle the magic words-


STOP THE SNP
18

The Strategist,

07/12/2008 01:36:32
Given Crash Gordon's success in destroying the entire UK economy I would not be at all surprised if the Scottish Govt were finding it difficult to fund the new Forth Road Bridge project.
19

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 01:39:24
#22 Sam the man the snp Fear most

What is an upteen oh wise one???
20

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:40:57
21#

Oh i thought you had retired and on the old age pension,oh well i will bid you a good night as i was taught to show old people manners so good night you old coffin dodger.lol.

P.S Plenty of water before bed it will help aleviate a hangover but i am sure you will have a can of special by the bed for the morning.
21

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:42:43
22 Sammy it's umpteen names. Not upteen. And you generally sprinkle magic dust, not words.

I like to help my fellow posters when I can.
22

walter,

07/12/2008 01:43:47
We the SNP minority agree that we speak for the majority, and the majority will not disagree
that they are spoken for by we the minority SNP.

If however one of the majority has the audacity to disagree that they are spoken for by we the minority
then Children and Quislings and Traitors we decree they be because they have a different opinion than the minority SNP.

23

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:44:34
25 Come on Sammy you can do better than that.
24

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:48:30
24#

Allow a young gentleman like myself to educate an old gentleman like yourself.

Upteen is what us younger ones use(Urban) and you old dears use the word umpteen.

So there you have it and if you have anymore problems just ask me.
25

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 01:53:16
27#

Yes i also like to help other posters and i often correct their mistakes and try and help them see the Union is their only hope.

I on rare occasions make the odd mistake but lets fce it i get my point along and get the results correct nd can work my magic and i am happy to prove it.
26

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:53:40
Sammy - you have just made post 30 up. And it's alleviate, not aleviate. And I when talking about the self is capitalised, as in I, not i. But never you mind dear about these flaws in your education, it doesn't make you a bad person.
27

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 01:55:56
31 - do you mean you get your point across dear ? Because making a point along doesn't make any sense.
28

FTH22inarow,

07/12/2008 02:00:14
no sh*t sherlock. mind you they're only fifers
29

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 02:08:16
33#

Yes you are correct but 32 you are wrong, anyway these are comment boards not exam papers, there is many mistakes made even by yourself but unlike most posters i do not issue several posts a day just to correct a few spelling errors.
30

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 02:12:36
35 So I was wrong in saying you weren't a bad person ? Anyway I have to toddle off to bed, good night little loser (again) post what you wish adios.

ps it is there are many mistakes, not there is many mistakes,
31

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 02:13:07
I still win as always Observer, Herald, Glenrothes, snp propagnada, threads looking like snp chatrooms, need i say more.

Anyway i accept your apology Observer with thanks.
32

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 02:19:27
How would you fund the bridge Sam?
33

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 02:20:48
36# At your age you need all the rest you can get.

Hope the hangover is not to bad and please follow the advice i gave you including sleeping on your side incase you are sick with all the drink you have downed and the drugs aswell
34

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 02:43:06
38#

Scunnert my old chum from the slums.

The bridge should be funded by tolls only and money needed borrowed from within the UK, no middle east money like Salmond would like.

The best answer would be this project and others for as long as possible to be delayed, by the looks of things traffic is not going to be as heavy as expected and the broader picture is that IMO the everyday man and women is never going to be able to borrow like before as this is why we are in the mess we are, borrowing money at one time was only for certain people and it was a luxury,credit was hard to come by, i think alot of good will come out of this but it will be years away and we all will learn to live with in our means .
35

Navvy,

07/12/2008 02:45:08
A new crossing is needed
A bridge would be very foolish as the present one and others of its like demonstrate
The correct solution is an immersed tube tunnel as teh 70 year old, trouble free tunnels in Holland testify
36

Sam the man the snp Fear most,

07/12/2008 02:48:40
38#

I should add that the bottom line is the bridge should be Government owned no PFI that get payed back many times over what it cost, a good example being the Skye Bridge which IMO was not needed and damaged Skye in many ways, granted to some it was just a bridge but to many it took the shine of Skye.
37

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 03:08:48
40 Sam

"The bridge should be funded by tolls only and money needed borrowed from within the UK, no middle east money like Salmond would like."

I think you are confusing Salmond with Broon:

Brown and Barclays go cap in hand to the Gulf

Prime Minister's plea on oil prices as he tours the Middle East to secure IMF funding

tinyurl.com/5dmcy2

Brown claims victory over Gulf financial plan
By James Tapsfield, PA
Sunday, 2 November 2008
ndependent.co.uk Web

Gordon Brown claimed victory today in his bid to get Gulf states to pump more money into struggling economies.

tinyurl.com/6ftfnv

Personally, I would scrap the bridge project entirely. Use the money to subsidize public transport. There are far too many cars on the roads today causing great harm to the environment and our communities.
38

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 03:09:42
43 Sam

Agree with this one sam.
39

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 03:12:55
41 Southside Jimmy

When he's not trolling he can produce sound arguments and ideas.
40

subrosa,

07/12/2008 03:42:54
Interesting article in the Opinion section (not for unionists though).

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/opinion/Kenny-Farquharson--Calman-oversteps.4769099.jp
41

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 06:22:33
28

surely youre referring to the minority Zanu Liebour party with their democratic mandate of 35% and their unelected leader?
42

Walter Ego,

Durness 07/12/2008 06:57:51
Swinney isn't culpable but Salmond is. Scotland deserves better.
43

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 07/12/2008 07:01:44
49

Walter Ego, I agree but it appears that we won't have to put up with him much longer. Insiders suggest that he is on the point of walking.
44

Son of Gramsci,

Ediburgh 07/12/2008 07:25:56
The bridge gets about 22 million crossings a year.

£4 billion, ie £4,000 million, would cost £200m a year to finance at 5%. Would probably be much more than this.

That more than £8 per crossing, even if all the traffic used the new bridge.

The question is not how to finance this, but why? The cost is greater than the use can justify. Or to put in another way, why should 30,000 communters a day swallow up such a huge proportion of the total resources available. Trade will cary on, via Stirling or Kincardine.
45

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 07/12/2008 07:51:16
Why has SoS not reported on the Andrew Welsh scandal? He is in trouble for bullying female committee clerks at Holyrood but SoS chooses not to cover this. It is time for some balanced reporting.
46

Phil C,

07/12/2008 08:50:09
He could ask Brown & Darling for an advance. They seem to have hundreds of billions to chuck around. Failing that it will just be paid for like any other project, creating work for our Brown-battered, sorely tested engineering industry.

How much was that shiny train set again?
47

TWC,

07/12/2008 09:12:05
Why did it take 2 guys to write this? My son's essays are longer than this and have more investigation behind them.
No wonder the people don't buy newspapers, they are still spinning everything pro new Labour.
The first post must actually be written by their own journalists every time.
The people are crying out for a real Study of Scotland's Finances and Constitution options but none is forthcoming.
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 09:34:16
"Jeremy Purvis, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The trust is an extremely expensive empty vessel. Its cost of £23m is a scandalous waste of money when all that it now appears to be is a lobby arm."

I suspect the £23m is a figment of Purvis's imagination.
49

Son of Gramsci,

Edina 07/12/2008 09:34:35
#53

The tramline costs £513 million.

Which just emphasises that £4 billion is a shed load of money to spend on 30,000 commuting Fifers.

In the end it does not matter about the technicalities of the funding structure, this new bridge just is not worth the cost.
50

Son of Gramsci,

Embra 07/12/2008 09:53:13
#58

But, the ships couldn't get to Grangemouth or Rothsyth, which would be a bit of a problem.
51

Son of Gramsci,

edina 07/12/2008 09:54:14
#58

A very imaginative suggestion, nevertheless.
52

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 07/12/2008 10:10:48
Just to show you what an awful state Scotland is in these days. The original Forth Road Bridge was completed in 1964 - the year of the Beatles first album. It cost less than £20 million, was delivered under-budget and three months ahead of schedule. Now, we have lived through times of inflation and salaries cost more now than they did in 1964. But if we could build a bridge for £20 million in 1864 - why would a new one cost £4.2 BILLION just 44 years later. That is an increase of 20,000% !!

I think the original construction team could have built a bridge from solid gold for that amount, with diamond encrusted cables - and all retired to the Caribbean on private yachts. Oh, maybe that's still true - the last bit I mean.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge
Mott, Hay and Anderson and Freeman Fox & Partners carried out the design work and Sir William Arrol & Co. constructed the bridge at a cost of £11.5 million, while the total cost of the project including road connections and realignments was £19.5 million. Seven lives were lost during construction before the bridge was opened by Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh on 4 September 1964.The ferry
53

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 10:17:38
Promises and pledges - this is all we can expect from a populist seeking SNP administration. As "free this, free that, and free the next thing" announcements helped increase the newly elected nationalists in the opinion polls since may 2007 its now pretty clear there is no substance to any of their policies as the sums simply don't add up.

You can fool some of the people all of the time (by tugging at their heart strings) but you sure won't fool the majority and its high time they were held to proper account before we get duped into an independence cul de sac.

Bring on the referendum I say, now Mr Salmon?
54

Greenheatman,

TAIN 07/12/2008 10:20:52
The best bet is to subcontract the construction of the bridge to any other country like Norway, Sweden, Korea, France or Germany who will be able to construct a bridge at a fixed price of around £200 million nae bother.
55

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 10:31:37
The bridge is still too expensive. Is there really a need for another road bridge across the Forth? The old one is only about 40 years old for goodness sake.
56

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 10:34:31
Sam the man the snp ignore most.

After reading his first post, I just scroll past the rest. To do otherwise is to feed the troll and to ruin the thread !
57

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 10:36:59
#49 "Scotland deserves better"

And who do you have in mind?
58

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 07/12/2008 10:37:27
According to a civil engineering journal, the favourite option will be the same as the Second Severn Crossing.

It will be a design, build, and manage project with high tolls and the only outlay Holyrood will have are the approach motorways. It is £5.30 per car to use the Second Severn Crossing.

Civil engineering consortiums are queuing up all over Europe to replace ageing capital infrastructures and offer governments a stake in projects like river crossings.

The Scottish Government might well recoup enough to cover the cost of the motorways?
59

brownlie,

07/12/2008 10:42:34
63 Liberal for Life

Quite right, we unionists are solidly behind a referendum! As we keep pointing out on this site a majority of Scots are against independence so the message which we all have in common is "Bring it on"!!
60

Publius,

Sandra 07/12/2008 10:44:26
#68 Mr Lachie Todd

At last the voice of sanity. The magnificent Pont de Normandie over the Seine has a high toll too.

"It's Time" ... for the SNP government to admit at was wrong to abolish bridge tolls. They should restore the the toll on the present Forth Road Bridge immediately and admit there will be a high toll on the new bridge, whoever runs it.
61

brownlie,

07/12/2008 10:49:51
58 Col. Blimp

Not just a pretty face, Colonel!!

71 daniel

I agree with you - first time for everything!
62

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 11:05:29
#63 A poorly educated troll, judging by the pathetic effort at #63 above.
63

,

07/12/2008 11:06:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 11:10:16
With reference to the headline above this poor piece, I failed to spot where Swinney was coming under any pressure whatsoever. On the contrary, he and the rest of the SNP Government have the moral high ground on this issue. The inactivity and utter disinterest of their predecessors is there for all to see.

McNulty is just making himself look and sound stupid !
65

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/12/2008 11:10:20
Col Blimp/Danielrober

Are the tides in the River Forth strong enough to generate a significant amount of electricity to compensate for the extra costs involved especially as it appears large gates would need to open and close regularly to let shipping through.
66

Son of Gramsci,

Edinburgh 07/12/2008 11:10:55

#62 Yes, the increase in cost between the two bridges is very strange. OK, the first one got the best site, but still. The general price level (measured by the GDP deflator, the widest measure) has gone up about 15 fold since 1964 (ie £1 in 1964 buys about the same as £15 now, on average accross the economy). Yet the cost of a bridge appears to have gone up more than 200 fold, from £20 million to more than £4,000 million. If the price had gone up at the same rate as the average, the cost would only be £300 million. That is a huge difference.
67

Ugly George,

07/12/2008 11:12:01
76 Connaughtboy
"On the contrary, he and the rest of the SNP Government have the moral high ground on this issue"

How do you build a bridge on "moral high ground"?
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 11:12:59
#75 Even more important than what the SNP have done in a year is what they stopped Labour doing ie closing down A&E units across Scotland and betraying Scottish interests just to please their Westminster masters. For that alone I thank them !!
69

Son of Gramsci,

Edina 07/12/2008 11:13:21
#77

I discover that the Institute of Mechanical Engineers lists the Forth Estury as a possibily for tidal power.
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 11:14:40
#79 George

At the time of writing I was expecting such a comment. It still made me smile though :)
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 11:18:03
#83 Col. BlimpIV

Have you been across the new Kincardine bridge yet. I have still to have the pleasure. It must have made a huge difference to the town.
72

,

07/12/2008 11:24:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Ewan M,

07/12/2008 12:17:52
The SNP have done nothing in the first 18 months apart from fail to deliver nursery places, pay off student loans and employ 1000 NEW police. They have proved their numbers don't add up and that Salmond is the smuggest politician in UK political history.

Oh and the blame Westminster every day as if that is somehow standing up for Scotland, when it's really just to distract you from their own failings.


74

salmondella,

UK 07/12/2008 12:20:52
Another story about the SNP inability to manage Scotland. Of course, according to the red and black faithful, the story above is another consipiracy by the union to undermine the SNP. As long as the NATS continue to believe in their own propoganda the more the rot will continue to set in and its goodbye the SNP -for good. They will never get another chance by all those dissaffected Labour voters who gave them a chance to prove that they could do better than the dreadful Labour regime. It is now becoming more and more obvious that they can't even do that.
75

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 12:21:06
#73- its not just the UK but the whole global network of economies that interact that are affected here, so get real. Its an example of when an industry such as the financial services plays fast and loose with our money by following the characteristics of greed then we wake up to realise the impact is on our societies as well as our economies.

Despite reservations regarding the Scotsamn who is presently the Prime Minister of the UK one has to admit he is right in endeavouring to find a global agreement on this global problem.

The parocial nature of your interests in all this are marginal and will remain marginal - thats not a prediction its a fact.
76

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:21:54
#87 Ewan

If you are going to troll, at least make some effort.

It is illogical to accuse the SNP of doing nothing except doing nothing.

Nobody is going to feed a troll like you !

77

salmondella,

Uk 07/12/2008 12:22:22
Oops, got the NATS colour wrong - its yellow and black.
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:25:17
#88 Another post full of unsubstantiated rantings. This is becoming the modus operandi for unionists with nothing to say.

No specifics, no facts, no analysis, no balance.
79

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:26:25
#91 do you think anyone really cares whether you got the colours wrong.

I have news for you, they don't.
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:28:23
As I said earlier, I fail to see where Swinney is coming under increased pressure. Having said that, the tunnel option appeared to be much cheaper. Maybe this is too much of a vanity project, like the Edinburgh trams.
81

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 12:28:51
#75 - coming from Aberdeenshire you really should know better. The graduate endowment you refer to is admittedly a charge but comes at the end of a students education which replaced tuition fees that were charged before the start of the courses so its like comparing apples and pears. I suggest you explain yourself more honestly next time.

Whilst this is not the ideal, and was a compromise reached in coalition with the Labour party, its still a far more honest approach than anything the SNP have so far proposed. There is simply no such thing as a "free lunch" so stop kidding folks on. If you can't be honest enough and trust the people with the genuine facts of the matter then do the honourable thing and remove Aberdeenshire form your title - its an insult to the good folk who were born and raised there.
82

brownlie,

07/12/2008 12:29:08
91 salmond

Why not admit you got it all wrong and not just that little bit?
83

,

07/12/2008 12:30:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:31:54
#89 Liberal

Rightly or wrongly, there is a strong perception on the continent, in France in particular, that the main culprits for the global crisis are the USA and the UK. They see this as "Anglo Saxon" behaviour.

This is direct from my French colleagues mouths. I think there might be an element of truth in it.
85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:35:02
In reality. Brown has been systematically weakening our economy over the last ten years, not deliberately, simply through incompetence. We are badly placed to weather this storm, yet incredibly, Brown actually believes his own lies and self-delusion.
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 12:41:40
#95 Liberal

I can't really see your point.

Nowhere in #75 do I see reference to "tuition fees".

Most of Aberdeenshire Scot's post appears to be a statement of fact.
87

,

07/12/2008 12:42:27
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88

,

07/12/2008 12:43:17
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89

brownlie,

07/12/2008 12:49:43
105 TheSpook in eternal sunshine

Hi, Spooks, hate to be pedantic but if you had taken the 2 really good chances there would be no need for a replay!! My arithmetic is brilliant!!
90

,

07/12/2008 12:52:22
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91

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 12:54:54
#102 - Col Blimp -you are even more out of touch with the facts if you don't know that tuition fees (in Scotland) were abolished and to help balance the books (you know what this means I take it) it was necessary at that time to introduce retrospective graduate endowments that are paid off, ONCE a graduate is earning sufficent money from employment, at a rate they find affordable.

So screw the nut and stop diverting from the facts of it all - what are you a nationalist propagandist, cause they rarely deal in facts?
92

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 12:56:02
~108 - what about the money you continue to take from homophobes?
93

,

07/12/2008 12:56:54
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94

Euan,

Edinburgh 07/12/2008 12:57:16
'Jeremy Purvis, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, said: "The trust is an extremely expensive empty vessel. Its cost of £23m is a scandalous waste of money when all that it now appears to be is a lobby arm." '

Not anywhere near as scandalous when compared to the blatant squandering of public funds on Edinburgh's disgraceful and completely unnecessary tram LINE..
95

salmondella,

Uk 07/12/2008 13:00:41
#96 Brownie - Now your chance to prove me wrong. Can you name me any significant reforms that the SNP have introduced since coming to power, in relaton to their manifesto promises. That is apart from the notable exception of saving the A&E in Lanarkshire and the scrapping of the bridge tolls?
96

,

07/12/2008 13:02:33
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97

brownlie,

07/12/2008 13:05:40
117 salmondella

I'll just mention one so as not to bore you with a list.

Freezing of council tax and attempts to reform this hated tax.

If the status quo had been maintained by the Scottish Government being run by the Lab/Lib coalition, there is no reason to believe that the Council Tax would have continued to rise year after year.
98

brownlie,

07/12/2008 13:08:36
115 Spook

Lucky sod! my next game - on my own two feet- will be the derby game - looking forward to that!
99

Son of Gramsci,

Embra 07/12/2008 13:10:10
#119

A typo, I assume - there is every reason to believe that the Cooncil tax would have continued to rise.

#117

It is obvious to most that a minority government is limited in the major reforms it can make, or at least make quickly. Remember, for example, that the SNP government would have done away with the tramline, but were prevented by the other parties.
100

,

07/12/2008 13:11:14
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101

,

07/12/2008 13:16:00
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102

,

07/12/2008 13:22:54
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103

Kenny Farquharson,

Scotland on Sunday 07/12/2008 13:27:39
Hello,
Just a reminder that if you want to keep up with Scottish politics you should take a look at The Steamie, the new blog brought to you by political journalists and commentators on Scotland on Sunday, The Scotsman and the Evening News.

www.scotlandonsunday.com/thesteamie
104

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 13:29:02
#112 - so you admit it - all this "free" stuff is nonsense just like SNP- so Stop Nationalist Propaganda now.

Now you can tell the people of Ayrshire that their improved cancer care facilities had to be shelved to save an underused A&E department or tell the pupils who have to remain in portacabins for yet another year, or the pensioners in Fife who now have to pay for their care support to help fund the "free" bridge tolls etc.

At the end of the day its about PRIORITIES and your lot as usual have a wrong, misguided, set of proiorities that have more to do with getting so-called "independence" than improving our quality of life. Your head might be screwed on but I suspect its buried up a dark hole somewhere if you can't disect the truth of the matter.
105

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:33:02
111 Liberal

The homophobe comment is ignorant. You should really think twice before posting offensive nonsense like that.
106

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:35:22
113 Euan

Agreed.

Also the £23m figure seems to be more fiction than fact. Anyone care to provide a proper source for it?
107

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:37:37
#110 If that was directed at me, you comprehensively failed to address my point, namely, that you were the one to mention tuition fees first. Also, Aberdeenshire's post was pretty much factually based.
108

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:39:35
117 Scrapping PFI
109

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 13:39:52
#118 - please don't give me your pathetic insults. Just remember who it was who devised and introduced the old age pension and NI contributions that culminated in the introduction of the NHS. I stand proud to be associated with the architects of such everlasting legacies and symbols of mans humanity to man.

So what can you claim to be associated with? - "free" bridge tolls. What a joke party you support.
110

salmondella,

Uk 07/12/2008 13:40:53
#Brownlie the freezing of council tax was a temporary populist fix by the SNP which is leading to cuts right across all services in Scotland, including Glenrothes which cost you the bye election. The widely opposed proposal to introduce LIT is is ill thought out has no chance of being imposed on the Scottish people. Can you tell me what has happened to the manifesto promises of school class sizes being cut and Faslane being closed and a nuclear free Scotland - or are these "in the pipeline"?
111

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:41:07
117 Scrapping the ridiculous EARL project
112

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:42:25
117 I am glad that you concede that saving A&Es and scrapping bridge tolls is "notable".

There may be a glimmer of hope for you yet !!
113

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 07/12/2008 13:42:31
#130 how is a fact of life "ignorant"?

It might be unpalatable to many although it obviously is not to you, so I reckon that makes you more ignorant than me.
114

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:43:39
117 Not forgetting the concordat with COSLA
115

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:53:37
125 MMM

Also, next to the Foulkes piece, was the particularly self-loathing "article" from Jenny Hjul. What a nasty pice of work that wee wifie is.
116

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 13:54:54
Considering Liebour did nothing about the bridge and left it too people capable of such projects to institue it and finish of the Clackmannanshire bridge

30 - Sam the BNP Troll we laugh at most - "Upteen is what us younger ones use(Urban) and you old dears use the word umpteen."

That is very cosmopolitan and ethnically divers of you. Do you substitue "axe" for "ask" and "homey" for "friend"?

Do your BNP/Womabat 18 area cho horts know about this "secret" culture you want to be a part of?

117

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 13:55:56
I need a new keyboard this ones humped!
118

,

07/12/2008 13:56:10
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119

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/12/2008 13:56:28
#138 Liberal

What fact of life?
120

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 13:57:25
it fckng msses hlf the letrs
121

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 13:58:10
142 Sammy is obviously familiar (from his posts above) with drinking Carsberg Special Brew, having one ready for the morning, and lying on his side when he goes to sleep so he doesn't inhale his own vomit.

Given that seems to be his lifestyle, he might not be up yet to read your post.
122

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 13:59:41
144 - Its a drawing of mechanism. Sidebar us all of the main attention drawing articles. A Sand pit to vent our spleens outside the main and noticeable arena.
123

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 13:59:41
Swinney and the SNP TALK THE TALK. When it comes to getting things done they are incompetent. It is time for them to step aside and let Labour get on with the business of running Scotland. New schools, hospitals care for the elderly etc are the legacy of Labour. Labour get things done.
124

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 14:01:46
149 Good Afternoon Graham.
125

,

07/12/2008 14:02:15
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126

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 14:03:31
Just read Lard Foolkes rambling, incoherent drivel on the Times site.

He really is getting worse.

Deluded as well as stupid - a dangerous combination!!
127

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 14:04:03
147 - observer - Aye he allways comes on after he's been out mugging a pensioner or listening too "banging toones" round his goosestepping sugar dady/ soap bar dealers. I wonder how he feels about ayrshire being nominated for a carbuncle?

Probably blames those hard working folk who escaped uganda and started many multi million pound businesses here. How dare they!
128

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 14:07:07
And the Jenny Hjul article is breathtaking in its pro Sleaze Party garbage.

I take it she's a card carrying member??
129

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 14:12:24
From The Sunday Times
December 7, 2008
£20bn tax package a flop, Gordon Brown told
Isabel Oakeshott, Deputy Political Editor

GORDON BROWN’S private polling has found that his £20 billion emergency give-away fell flat with the public, effectively killing off any chance of a snap election.
130

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 14:22:25
150# Hello Ob. Thought I would join the SNP chat line and brighten things up. Boring subject bridges is. Thomas Telford would have had the project up and running with Labour support.
131

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 14:27:14
#156

Go on remind me of the financial deal(PPP?PFI) and how it worked out for the Skye Bridge, oh wise one???
132

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 14:28:26
Shamus/ Grahamski - Have you not got issues such as purnell stopping benifits, making ill people work and demonising as spongers or ID cards and backdoor surveilance, too appologise for? You like to bang on aout being anti right wing and all that.
133

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 14:30:18
Free benifits are over - Allways thought we contributed through NI?, but their we go..... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5299038.ece
134

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 14:45:08
I've just had a look at 'The Steamie', the Hootsmon's new cutting edge comments site.

Oh dear, no one has posted. I wonder why???
135

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 14:45:52
161 Labour are attaching their so called benefit reforms to the Karen Matthews case, using her as a launch vehicle to propel their attack on the welfare state, as if somehow the welfare state was responsible for what she did.

Just when you think they cannot stoop any lower, they manage to reach a little bit further down into the abyss.

136

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 14:46:52
Markets over morality

Guy Dammann

Shareholder capitalism, which is a logical byproduct of the free market principle, is not great. People pretend it is predicated on the idea that natural greed can be put to good use, to the greater benefit of mankind, but it is in fact predicated on the effective isolation of executive power from anything resembling moral judgment, and its subjugation to the blind desires of individuals who have cashed in the concept of consequence for something with better growth potential.

In this sense, as a system, it is not simply morally corrupt; it is the principal agent through which distinctions between good and bad have become voided of meaning. The consequent progressive, rampant commodification of the entire sphere of human desire, subjecting to a principle of exchange everything from birth, sex and death, has left us with a subjectivity no longer able to comprehend any alternative to the market. The very concept of the individual - which though it may be a convenient fiction, is none the less that without which the notions of morality and human value are completely empty – has had its assets summarily stripped, broken up and repackaged. In the free market, mankind has short-sold its soul.

tinyurl.com/59vnqp
137

Alan Reid,

Vborg 07/12/2008 14:48:25
I f Scotland was independent it would have the funds available to pay for this in the first place.
You can see a mile off the plan of Westminster. Cut more and more money from Scotland, even though Scotland pays far more into the UK treasury than it gets out. The SNP in trying to carry out the projects that needs to be done might even raise taxes in Scotland, and then you’ll hear the screaming from all over the UK that Scotland is the most taxed part in the UK thanks to the nasty “natz”.
And with the press being controlled by London, the brain dead morons of Scots will vote in another Labour Government who will do NOTHING but return to the good old days of bleeding Scotland dry.
138

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 14:48:36
From the Telegraph,


Brown 'thrashed at school'

Gordon Brown has admitted to being thrashed by his headmaster while at High School.

06 Dec 2008
Peter Hain: 'I have lost 10 months of my life’ over donations investigation
'It was an emotional moment, when the call came,? says Peter Hain, at home after being cleared. 'I?m not a demonstrative man ? more phlegmatic, me ? but, yes, it was a very emotional moment?

After being cleared over campaign contributions, former Cabinet minister Peter Hain tells Olga Craig how he believes he was made a scapegoat .

06 Dec 2008
Andy Burnham and pals enjoy 'summit' at £2,500 a head

While private companies cancel their Christmas parties, Cabinet ministers continue to entertain in style. Mandrake learns that Andy Burnham, the Culture Secretary, spent almost £50,000 on providing hospitality for just 20 guests, who included Mark Thompson, the director general of the BBC, and Andy Duncan, the Channel 4 boss.


That's it. Keep the media sweet while the rest of us get shafted.

That's New Labour Sleaze and Corruption for you!!
139

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 14:51:29
156 Bridges may be boring but sometimes they are necessary. Although I'm not sure that this one is.

Anyway, if the Scottish Government had borrowing powers then they could sort these things out in a jiffy, so support the SG being given the right to borrow, and you may get some more interesting stories to comment on Graham.
140

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 14:54:47
167 Jimmy Le Pie

"Brown 'thrashed at school'

Gordon Brown has admitted to being thrashed by his headmaster while at High School."

"Thrashed"? Didnae help ony.
141

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 15:04:30
Lessons from the Great Depression won’t help us now
By Iain Macwhirter

IT'S NOT bad being a banker, really. All you have to do is borrow money at a low interest rate from the government and then lend it at a higher interest rate to businesses and mortgagees. Doesn't take a lot of genius to do that. Even I could make money out of it.

So, why does the government waste its breath squealing at the financiers to pass on interest rate reductions? If they're serious, why don't they just move in and take operational control of the banks - many of them are state-owned already, such as Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley, or with a large state holding, like Royal Bank of Scotland. It's not as if banking requires any special skills. You could nationalise the lot and no-one would notice, except luxury car dealers and yacht builders.

tinyurl.com/67rbme

142

Jimmy Le Pie,

07/12/2008 15:06:01
Looks like the new Hootsmon blog, The Steamie, is up there with AM2's blog!!

Unadulterated p!sh!
143

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 15:21:15
#167 - Jimmy Le pie - "06 Dec 2008
Andy Burnham and pals enjoy 'summit' at £2,500 a head

While private companies cancel their Christmas parties, Cabinet ministers continue to entertain in style. Mandrake learns that Andy Burnham, the Culture Secretary, spent almost £50,000 on providing hospitality for just 20 guests, who included Mark Thompson, the director general of the BBC, and Andy Duncan, the Channel 4 boss. "

If they keep the media sweet, the media then role out that "everything is wonderful in Browns Britain", Just look at how they parachuted "safe" hads thompson and his chief scoop reporter peston to top spots.

Just like romaina in the 70's and 80's all smoke and mirrors.
144

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 16:02:43
A wee bit ae nostalgia.

tinyurl.com/6zvzrj
145

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 16:05:37
#175 - that was for the whole event you plank including outside caterers for it. Not per head.

LOL hoisted by your own pitard again!

146

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 16:24:37
tinyurl.com/5zcwe6
147

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 16:26:54
Aye - it's amazing what ye can build when ye've got oil money.

tinyurl.com/6qev55
148

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 16:29:00
#175 - did I miss th irony in that point? :-)
149

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 16:34:50
Juan Kerr is without doubt a figment of his/her own imagination. Make it up as you go along.
150

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 17:03:58
#181 - Answer the question Grahamski. Are you old ALbour or New Labour or the National Socialist one? Too scared to pin youre colours too the mast incase they fdall on the wrong side of the fence?
151

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 17:22:47
Oh dear, thats got him worried!
152

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 17:36:37
182# I am the middle of the road type Great Britsh bloke that believes in hard work and looking after the weaker in society. I am certainly not a leftie sponger that thinks society owes me something. I have never heard the Great British nation being compared to Romania. Clearly your heid is up yer chorus. You are probably one of those lefties that thought Romania was a greast socialist workers paradise. Incidentally Old Labour were unelectable Trots, Marx and Engels idiots. Better to be in power than shouting from the sidelines.
153

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 17:43:09
184# If it is in the Suday Times it must be true.
154

English flag,

07/12/2008 17:45:45
185.Well said shamus,maybe swinney should learn to add up,infact the whole of the snp are a bunch of brain dead trots.
155

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 17:52:35
185 Yeah sure Graham, better to be in power to conduct illegal wars, lock people up for 42 days, have anti-terrorist Police storm an MP's Office, make single parents and the incapacitated clean chewing gum off the pavements, force old people to leave the family home if it's deemed too big for them, spend billions propping up a failed banking system that you failed to regulate, I could go on but won't, rather than stick to any principles that you ever had. A very apt description of New Labour indeed, power is everything.
156

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 17:54:14
Hanus/Grahamski "Better to be in power than shouting from the sidelines." no matter what tune your elected on? is that not desception?
157

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:01:06
So Shamus Grahamski. Thanks for comfirming your of the national socialist variety. Whatever gets things done type!

A joke too come on here and talk democracy. Vane words vane empty words.
158

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:03:40
188# When all is lost bring up the war. Even showing sympathy for a Tory. I think we have argued the War one before. I asked what is the difference between a legal war and a so called illegal war. A legal one is when the majority have an interest in it. A war is a war.
159

English flag,

07/12/2008 18:04:45
190.Unlike you i will not lower myself,to call you a bigot is a understatement.
160

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:06:10
192 an illegal war is one where the cassus belli was a great big fat lie.

and I've got no sympthy for a Tory, I do however respect Parliament - you don't ?
161

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:08:19
191# So you are one of those lefties that prefers to be out of power. Typical of Old Labour. I will bet you were all for the TU BLOCK VOTE. The workers are stupid the TU Barons know better. Have you gone from International Socialist to petty Scottish Nationalist.
162

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:14:03
187# Trotsky was a clever man that formed and led the Red Army. The snp are just the snp. Cant even plan the building of a bridge. They could gain respectability if they resigned.
163

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:14:24
195 there is no conflict between nationalism and internationalism. I think the workers are smart and the TU Barons stupid. I would break any link between the TU's and any political party, they should concentrate on the welfare of their members, that is what they are there for.
164

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:18:29
#196 - spoken like the true words of a person with no interest in democracy if his party is not in power. Jail take back supress. Thats the only things you held onto from the USSR touting era.
165

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:18:59
mine
166

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:19:23
Ocht well....
167

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:23:55
"BTW you sound like an old man in drag scouting about public toilets, its called cottaging in Edinburgh."

I thought that was thomas Paton?
168

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:24:12
194# Politicians are not above the Law. Some think they are.
169

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:26:51
197# The TU formed the Labour Party. It is still required. The workers need some clout against the Tories and Tartan Tories.
170

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:27:48
206 Yeah well in this case the law got above the law didn't it. We shall see how long it takes Martin to resign, and then there will be another bye-election in Glasgow, which will be fun.

Anyway off now, bye.
171

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:29:40
208 Ancient history, Labour lost any claim to respresent the workers a long time ago. Now all the link does is bring the unions into disrepute. Off now.
172

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:30:14
207 ex boss of bay city rollers, alleged to dress in drag and rohypnol young persons when their buying their 16ths of lung disease. Allways getting nicked for dope
173

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:38:17
AM2 right on cue........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
174

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:39:15
Talking of folk who like to dress in drag and rohynol their captives. It's time for another evening with Am2/SM753 -
175

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 18:42:44
214# The fat loudmouth has eaten all the pies.
176

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 18:47:41
214

Only the last 20 years or so.
177

brownlie,

07/12/2008 18:58:29
217 sm753

You will recall a few weeks ago that AM2 had no sense of humour. I think you've proved me right.

222 The Spook in eternal sunshine

Thanks for the song and the result!
178

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 18:58:55
Aye he is one heck of a fruit. have you checked the wee handlebar mustachio'd pal of his from wales on his blog? Lol

Also his Adoption of a Gay sailor suite wearing type(he called himself a priscilla!) as his "persona" for SM753 - Do ytou think this is why Mr Am2 bolted? Found him hammering away on Gaydar?
179

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:01:50
222# Salmund is allegedly the first minister. What an example of obesity and the Scottish diet. It is an embarrasment for the nation when it gets up to speak. Reminds me of that fifties film the Blob. Who gives a tuss about Kerr and Baillie.
180

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:05:07
224# You seem to be intae gays and things trolling public toilets etc. Do you hing aboot Charlie Sims toilet in St Vincent Place by any chance.
181

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:05:14
225 Sham

Yes, Grahamski you are very familiar with the expression "an embarrasment for the nation".
182

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:07:12
209.you would not know "Englishness" if it smacked you round the head,from the geordies in the north to the cockneys in the south,different in their own ways but all essentially English.
183

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:12:29
225.Salmond moonlights as Mr Blobby,he needs to,his food bill is in excess of £1,000 per month.
184

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:13:06
228# Good British blokes the Geordies and Cockneys same as us Jocks.
185

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:13:34
228 English flagging

You obviously don't know your "Englishness". The Geordies are from the north-east and the cockneys are not from the south - they're from London.
186

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 07/12/2008 19:16:21
#214 sm753 –

Sorry I’ve still been unable to connect with you. I tried on 3 December through my post #263 on http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Flashpoint-as-Calman-tests-SNP.4754392.jp#3499547, but you apparently left the thread after you posted at #121.

My post did elicit some other comments, however. You might want to look at posts #269, 292 and 294.

Please provide, without your customary obfuscation or insults:

(a) Specific URL references for the 1973 Local Government Act and the 1933 Local Government Act

(b) Proof that the "administrative county of Northumberland" does not really mean the County of Northumberland plus the “non-county area of - wait for it - Berwick-on-Tweed” that the county administers.

(c) Proof and the effective date that the “the non-county borough of Berwick-on-Tweed” became part of England.

If you and your formidable research team are unable to do this, it will destroy your contention that Berwick-on-Tweed is part of England.

Thank you.
187

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:16:56
232. THICKO, is London not in the south!
188

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:18:42
235

Not relative to France.
189

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:20:51
234.Berwick-upon-Tweed (pronunciation (help·info); IPA: /'b?r?k-/), (Scots: Berwick or historically South Berwick), situated in the county of Northumberland, is the northernmost town in England.
190

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:22:59
232# London being south of the Midlands puts London in the south of England.
191

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:23:10
234

What idiot claimed Berwick upon Tweed was ever part of England? it never has been in its entire history. It has been part of Scotland and it has been fully independent but it has never ever been part of England.
192

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:23:33
232 English flag

It's not me that the "THICKO". In London you would find yourself miles from the south of England and I don't think people in Devon and Hampshire would appreciate being called "cockneys".
193

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:24:34
240

No its in the South East of England not the South.
Just as the Geordies live in the North East of England and not the North as Brownlie correctly stated.
194

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 19:25:27
Bill to allow Commons searches with no warrant
Pressure grows on Speaker as new proposal undermines promise to MPs
By Brian Brady, Whitehall Editor
Sunday, 7 December 2008

Independent.co.uk

The vow by Commons Speaker Michael Martin to prevent "unauthorised" raids on MPs' offices in the wake of the Damian Green affair was seriously undermined last night as it emerged that the Government is preparing new laws to allow investigators to mount parliamentary searches without a warrant.
195

Shamus,

GLASGOW 07/12/2008 19:25:38
229# Scottish Nats watching Irish league football. Typical.
196

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:26:23
24 Sshanm

Who rattled your cage???
197

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:30:03
247 sham

If ignorance is bliss you must be delirious.
198

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:31:14
243.The local news programme in the north-east is called "Look North" so don't be a smart a=rse!
199

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:32:16
249# Cricket! More fun painting the Forth Road Bridge.
200

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:32:57
252.Carry on the delusion,you are one sad individual.
201

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 19:33:27
250# Wrong, I am.
202

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:33:52
253

Thats right they are looking North from a position of North East idiot boy.
203

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:34:43
253 English flagging

Is your command of the English language so poor that you've got to resort to Anglo-Saxon. If you look north in the north-east you will find Scotland. Do you think Cumbrians would like to be referred to as Geordies, their accent being completely different?
204

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:39:24
250 Winged Messenger

Go to Spooks's blog instead. At least there are posters with a sense of humour there - and Nikos.
205

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:39:58
259

Why do you even bother visiting these sites? all you are doing is giving him visitor numbers in order for him to gain advertising at cost. Dont visit these sites and they will die from lack of interest. Nobody else will show the slightest interest in his worthless blog.
206

English flag,

07/12/2008 19:41:03
257/258.Neither of you have a clue,only the nats could breed such morons.
207

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 19:42:34
From The Sunday Times
December 7, 2008

How bad is the economy going to get?
Last week saw jobs slashed, interest rates cut, house prices plunge and a fixture of Britain’s high streets go to the wall. When is all the bad news going to stop?

Like the cartoon character Wile E Coyote, the world economy raced off a cliff of debt and for much of this year was left in mid-air, legs spinning madly. Then in September, realisation dawned – gulp! – and everything began to plummet.

Bank values, jobs, houses – they all seem to be falling with the sort of whistling noise that presages something nasty. Is there a vortex below that will swallow them up?
208

brownlie,

07/12/2008 19:54:34
271 sm753

Do your friends call you Paddy or Andy or does anyone call you at all?
209

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 19:54:52
269

From Wiki:

English rule

Part of the town wallsIn 1482 the town was captured by Richard Duke of Gloucester, the future King Richard III, although not officially merged into England. England has administered the town since this date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed

read it and weep moron.

210

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:02:21
280

Whether there is only one of them or 2 or more I will bet my last pound he or they all work from the same office in the Scotsman.
AM2 SM753 Duncan Grahamski english voice english flag saxon yoke w churchill ugly george and many others all comming from the Scotsman with the sole purpose of stirring the blogs.
211

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:04:25
285

Aye using the UK government as your only reliable and verifiable source is far more intelligent right enough.
212

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:06:20
285

"Part of the town wallsIn 1482 the town was captured by Richard Duke of Gloucester, the future King Richard III, although not officially merged into England. England has administered the town since this date."

Are you claiming this statement is a lie or false in any way?
213

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:07:50
290

Have you made your mind up yet regarding whether the Scottish parliament should have more powers or not now that the Calman commission has published their conclusions?
214

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:08:47
292

Eh? you should know who everybody on these blogs are considering you work for the Scotsman pointless trying to pretend you dont anymore youre well and truly rumbled.
215

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:11:14
296

He doesnt give a sh.t as long as you keep posting.
216

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:15:31
I wonder which new account will pop up next.
217

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 20:16:16
200?
218

A True Scot.,

07/12/2008 20:21:07
301

What these morons at the Scotsman dont seem to grasp is we would post whether they stirred the blogs or not there is just too much to say and nowhere else to say it.
219

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 07/12/2008 20:41:34
#269 sm753 -

Welcome back. For your information, I am not a Nat. And I was not waiting on your every word – I was waiting for non-obfuscatory responses to my four specific points.

Thank you for the references. I will check them out as soon as I have time. I hope they are more relevant than the ones you gave me previously.

By the way, #241 is not a nutter.
220

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 20:49:03
Seems the Nats have managed again to get away from the subject of the Bridge and the incompetence of Swinney and Co. What they do best.
221

brownlie,

07/12/2008 20:55:02
313 Sham

If you stop telling lies about the SNP we will stop telling the truth about Labour.

310 Col.Blimp

Furthermore, I heard Gordon was "thrashed" at school. Coincidence?
222

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:03:19
313 Graham you said yourself that bridges were boring, you can hardly blame people for not talking about them.

223

Observer. 1,

Glashow 07/12/2008 21:05:52
Oh dear I hope the sm person isn't a woman, there are precious few of us that post, it would be annoying if a fellow female poster was an AM2 clone.

No, you can't be a woman, it's not possible.
224

Conan the Librarian™,

07/12/2008 21:07:00
314
B*ggared if I know, Brownlie
225

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:07:39
So why would he suggest he is a woman ?
226

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:11:19
315# It is boring but no one is defending the incompetent Swinney and the SNP FOR FAILING TO GET ONE BUILT. A tunnel would last longer in any case.
227

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:15:31
315# The proposed rail link from Bridgeton to the Commonwealth Games site does not seem to be progressing further since the SNP took over. They seem to be incapable of doing anything progressive. Sorry they lifted road tolls and put more cars on the road!
228

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:25:10
320/321 Graham you may have missed a wee point in the article which said

''with the economy plunging into recession and Scotland's budget facing £1bn cuts over the next 2 years''

Now given that, and given the fact that we are sailing into a perfect storm of depresseion a la 1929, if we are lucky, I am quite frankly expecting a few wee changes to the plan.

At least the SG is not running headlong into PFI storing up even further debt for our grandweans to pay off, or great grand weans in your case.

229

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:28:52
320 Yeah a tunnel might last longer.
230

Conan the Librarian™,

07/12/2008 21:33:00
323
I've got it; you're Mrs AM2;-)
231

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:37:35
322# How pessimistic of you. The depression and all that jargon. The SNP admin were given a massive ammount from Central Gov. More than any other. All they have done is moan. They are even moaning about fitba over in the Herald. All a diversion to get away from incompetence. It is time they got the show on the road and get our infrastructure improved. All the SNP seem to be doing is opening Labour projects and boasting about them.
232

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:40:50
228 In order to be a cockney you have to be born within the sound of Bow Bells in the East end of London. They are very particular about that, and quite rightly so.

You must be a fake who hasn't met any if you think cockneys come from the ''South''.
233

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:47:11
328# You also have to be a Millwall supporter.
234

Scunnert,

07/12/2008 21:48:11
The Scottish Government are playing this exactly right. Steady as she goes.
235

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:50:40
327 Stop being silly Graham, the so called highest ever amount didn't factor in inflation. I work in the public sector, I know what kind of money was slushing around in the first few years of devolution - there were gazillions of it. The settlement this year was tight.

You are right the SNP need to get the show on the road, the only way they can do that is by having borrowing powers. Westminster won't let them - go figure.
236

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 21:51:34
329 No you don't you can support West Ham.
237

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:07:39
330# No point in being steady. It is time to go and do something. Thats what governments are elected for. All this nonsense about future generations having to pay. So what this has always been the case. I WAS PAYING FOR THE COUNCIL HOUSE DEBT long after the houses were built. Does that mean cooncil hooses should not have been built. The SNP NEED TO GET THE FINGER OOT. THEY CAN ONLY MOAN FOR SO LONG. They are being sussed out by the voter. The building trade can wait them out. The SNP will cave in or be voted out.
238

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:13:34
334 Oh thank you Graham from Glasgow, you have unleashed me onto my favourite rant. Yes, you were paying for the Council house debt and guess what ? Labour wrote it off. In order to privatise the bloody thing. What a disaster, has cost the tax payer millions - and that's not counting the debt being written off - and it's been a bloody fiasco, which isn't over yet.

New Labour in action - the SNP will need to go some to match that.
239

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:15:44
332# I was in West Ham earlier this year. Cockneys were missing. I did get a nice Bobby Moore mug from the park. London is charging ahead with the transport system while the SNP are having cosy chats with tea and scones.
240

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:22:22
336 Well, as a person who lived in London for years, I'm a big Ken fan. I just hope Boris doesn't screw it up too much before he gets booted out. Now you really need to answer Col. Blimp's question - to PFI or not PFI - that is the question.
241

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:27:44
335# You are complaining about debt being written off. Surely not. I have never seen so much work being done on council house improvement in my life. Glasgow City Council Housing were a disgrace. I was forced to buy a house to get out of the ghetto they created by knowingly allowing the druggies into my estate. With the mandatory rottweillers. House broken into 3 times with several attempts. Mrs a nervous wreck. They had the cheek to tell me they were sorry to see a good tenent leave. If ever I detested an organisation! Anything that happened to that lot was for the good.
242

brownlie,

07/12/2008 22:31:43
334 Sham

Being sussed out by the voters. By that do you mean taking Glasgow East and increasing their vote by 13% in Glenrothes. If they increase their vote by 13% across the board your unionist votes will disappear like snow off a sauna roof.
243

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:34:14
338# I have sent Ken a cheque or two. Especially when he stood as Mayor the first time. Do not grass me to Labour.
244

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:37:10
340# You are being silly now. Unionists disappear. A knobend has more sense.
245

Shamus,

Glagow 07/12/2008 22:39:08
342# Great player almost as good as Jim Baxter.
246

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:42:42
339 Your wrong Graham, it's the same people running the show only it's cost twice, three times as much money. That's what Labour do.
247

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 22:46:40
SM753/AM2 : "In fact, it suits my purpose if you think so; the number of people reading this stuff is a substantial multiple of the number posting, so if you CyberNats want to show that you are unable to comprehend the notion of there being multiple articulate, intelligent unionists prepared to post here, carry on."

Now I know your kidding. Your now making extraordinary claims about ficticious unionists with brains, reasoned argument and backbone!

We all know their as rare as a unicorns horn......
248

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 22:46:58
341 The best Labour people have left. Hint hint Graham your a decent old boy, get with the zeitgeist.
249

brownlie,

07/12/2008 22:48:42
343 sham

Have you done a training course on knobends? You must have had a field day at your conference.
250

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 22:54:19
All the true Labour supporters have left and joined the SNP it would seem Shamus. Missed the bus their, That's what happens when you wait for crumbs too fall from a table.
251

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:00:46
Col. Blimp Jim Baxter lived out his final years in a block of flat in Shawlands, across the road from me. He was a very nice man indeed, as well as being a fantastic player, although I too only ever saw that on the telly.
252

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 23:06:28
Or their starting their own Independent candidate!

"Activists have warned that if Labour carries out Moffat's preferred solution - expulsions - they will run an Independent Labour candidate against her at the next general election.

One local member told the Sunday Herald: "What will be raised is the capability of this particular person to represent the Labour Party in East Lothian. That will be loud and clear. It's got to the stage where we have an MP who's a lame duck."
"
253

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:12:07
353 He was very nice as I knew him, but that was in his later years.
254

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

07/12/2008 23:12:16
QUAUCK QUACK QUACK........is it the geese migrating? No, just another Candidiate selection battle for Labour. Which one will they choose? The dodgey one who claims her tiaras been knicked, but mobile phone left or the one who lives with the BNP organiser and doesnt claim to know: 1 he is in the BNP. 2. Is the BNP's main lothian Organiser or 3. Even on the record for the council tax for the house they both live in!


Oh what a laughing stock they have become I hope the peoples who's "father voted labour" are watching. Nothing like anything he would vote for is it really?
255

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:13:38
356 Don't know I'm guessing the Quo Vadis.
256

brownlie,

07/12/2008 23:15:38
359 The Spook

So do I but not as much as Cathy.

Oidche mhath, a charaid!
257

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:15:50
352# His first goal for Rangers was against Clyde at Shawfield. A 40 yarder. I missed it because I was a wee person. My brother told me. He is the only player ever to play keepy up with England. He humiliated them. He upset the ref by stealing the ba and putting it up the back of his strip. I am getting as bad as the SNP NUMPTIES GETTIN AFF THE SUBJECT. WORTH IT FOR JIM BAXTER.
258

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:18:52
362 It's the keepy up thing which every man I have ever went out with is madly impressed with. So am I. That was just the king of cool.
259

Shamus,

GLASGOW 07/12/2008 23:23:17
355# YOU WOULD SAY THAT BEING A THICK irish republican from Leith! How did your lot actually manage to get across Scotland to the East.
260

brownlie,

07/12/2008 23:24:43
366 The Spook

Correct, why do you think I love her so much!

Nighty - must check on your blog to have night-mares over your picture of Rufus.
261

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:27:11
363# His socks were rolled doon tae his ankles as well. He wis really cool.
262

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:29:42
364 Paisley Road West is blue country. I reckon you were in the QV otherwise you might not be here.

Having said that there are other streets in Glasgow that you have to be a ''tim''.

The sooner the old firm are banished the happier I'll be.
263

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:36:17
373 how did you get to say blue -nose? This is a test I was censored before.
264

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:37:06
Ok hyphens work
265

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:37:22
347# The opportunists have left Labour. The same type of people that panic, move and to try further their career. Like Jim Sillers. The SNP bubble will bust. That is a certainty. The punters will suss out the middle class lawyers and trendy students that is the SNP.
266

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:42:06
377 another time dear, I need to go to bed work tomoz. But I'm glad you've came across now the Herald is dead.
267

Shamus,

07/12/2008 23:45:05
375# Apparantly he did have a degree of Catholic upbringing. That is why he probably liked to alter the clothing of the boys.
268

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:45:38
378 I know exactly what you mean but do not write off every Rangers supporter, that would be a huge mistake.

Bed for me, good night.
269

Shamus,

Glasgow 07/12/2008 23:55:42
386# How do you know this fondling thing. It was over 3 hunner years ago. Even you Spook were not hingin oot and aboot in those days. Tell Tell.
270

Shamus,

Glasgow 08/12/2008 00:03:07
392# It can become a fact if you make it up and say it for long enough. Kind of like the SNP, LOTS OF VERBAL AND NO SUBSTANCE.
271

Shamus,

GLASGOW 08/12/2008 00:05:30
390# BUT IT IS OK for bigots from the ROI and Australia to infest.
272

Shamus,

08/12/2008 00:23:51
397# How do you know he was a bum bandit. Seems tae me you are the bigot. So what if he liked a wee bit of the other. Personally I prefer wummin but who knows.
273

A True Scot.,

08/12/2008 07:21:45
307

I dont believe anybody has ever described you as being a man. To qualify you need to be a vertebrate for a start.
274

A True Scot.,

08/12/2008 07:26:29
323

You accuse everybody who argues with you as either being Jackie priest or spanners and anti semitic and then you say you wont argue with them anymore. Is that your way of getting out of continually losing arguments to people obviously much cleverer than yourself?
275

English flag,

08/12/2008 13:44:15
263.
From 1977 until 2003 I lived in Devon, Cornwall and Dorset. My work took me from Northumberland to Cornwall. I met a lot of English people who are still my friends and married a English lass from Yorkshire. My kids were born in Cornwall and went to school in Dorset and Somerset. Do I have a problem with the English, nope, do you have a problem with your English identity - clearly.
As your wife and kids are English I am pleased you do not have a problem with the English,never the less you seem to be bitter,if you think salmond and co will solve your problems i'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

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