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'Welcome' rise in Scots applying to study at universities



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Published Date: 17 July 2008
By FIONA MACLEOD
MORE Scots are applying for places at Scottish universities, according to new figures.
The University and College Admissions Service (Ucas) also said 2.4 per cent of Scots were opting to study at home.

Overall applications to UK universities and colleges rose by 9.1 per cent last year.

In total, 540,108 people applied to sta
rt full-time undergraduate courses in autumn, up from 494,842 last year.

English applications rose 11 per cent, Welsh by 4.9 per cent and overall Scottish applications by 2.7 per cent.

Ucas attributed the bigger rises in England and Wales to the inclusion of nursing and midwifery diploma courses south of the Border for the first time.

The figures also showed a 6.4 per cent rise in non-UK applications, with the number of Chinese applications rising by 22.7 per cent.

Big increases in the number of applications from the newest European Union member states, such as Bulgaria and Romania, were repeated this year. However, most subjects saw a fall in applications due to a reduction in the number of choices available to applicants.

Applications to study anatomy, physiology and pathology fell by 28.8 per cent, aural and oral studies by 24.5 per cent, while archaeology fell 29.7 per cent.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "We welcome the fact more Scots have applied for a place at university this year."

The University and College Union, which represents lecturers, claimed 2 per cent fewer English people were choosing to study in Scotland because they have to pay fees while Scots do not.





The full article contains 274 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 July 2008 9:16 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/07/2008 01:21:47
I consider the SNP's decision to discriminate between English and Scottish students to be reprehensible, but is a 2 per cent decline statistically significant?
2

Abel Magwitch,

17/07/2008 01:38:22
How interesting that while the Scottish universities are supposed to be in dire straits (due to lack of cash,the brain drain and the like) there has been a 22.7 percent increase in applications from China, which is working its way up to become world economic leader. Can China learn something from Scotland?
3

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/07/2008 01:51:01
1

That's all right, lad, I consider most of what you write reprehensible as well.

More students applying for higher education and at the same time, the SNP ended the fees and made it easier to apply.

Could it be that the policy is working?

Only 2% you say, not very much you say.

Tell it to the lads and lassies who are benifitting from this policy.

By the way, lad, nothing stops those south of the border from having the same policy... other than greed and antipathy.
4

Scullion,

Canada 17/07/2008 02:02:57
What percentage actually graduates?
5

bring them on,

17/07/2008 04:45:53
Most of the courses on offer are a joke.

Might as well say, go and have a laugh for a few years. Don't worry if you don't learn anything useful, we won't let on and you can have a scroll as well.
6

fife runner,

17/07/2008 06:24:15
we also have the highest drop out rate. it seems snobbish to suggest that some are failures if they do not get to university. it demeans vocational qualifications.
7

fife runner,

17/07/2008 06:25:00
agree#5 it seems some courses are being offered just to people going to uni.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 17/07/2008 07:12:14
#1 AM Squared.

Here you go again. Why is it reprehensible for Scottish kids to get some assistance in their own country? Why is it, as an Irishman, you are always denigrating Scotland and the Scottish people? You expect us to kow-tow to your precious Union, and now you're even expecting us to discriminate against our own kids in favour of foreigners.
9

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 07:29:22

But Guga EU students do not have to pay tuition fees at Scottish Universities, English students do. Isn't that discrimination?
10

donald,

glasgow 17/07/2008 07:57:03
You mean Anglicised Universities in Scotlandshire?
11

sm753,

17/07/2008 08:53:34
Dave from Barra and others:

The Nat policy discriminates specifically against those from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Those from anywhere else in the EU are exempted from fees.

This CANNOT be justified on the basis of "reciprocity" as there are fees elsewhere in the EU: the German universities have been able to charge since 2005, and the French grandes ecoles have always been fee-paying.

Furthermore, if the Nats achieved their precious goal of independence then this policy would be illegal under EU rules; it is a cynical exploitation of their current devolved but not independent status.

And they "welcome" the news more Scots are studying at home, confirming my suspicion that the aim all along has been "keep the Scots at home and the rest of the Brits away". Can't have the kids finding out their neighbours are just like them, can we?

This is a crypto-racist policy and is the most disgusting aspect of this party, based on deception and the politics of resentment.
12

Fairfax,

17/07/2008 08:56:46
a proud doonhamer (3): "By the way, lad, nothing stops those south of the border from having the same policy... other than greed and antipathy."

I suspect you mean apathy rather than antipathy: a Freudian slip! However, how would Scotland react if English universities took you at your word and charged Scots students more than English students?
13

antifa,

17/07/2008 09:43:23
"I also note that we have to pay fees if a Scots student wants to study elsewhere in the UK, they have to pay fees and fees alot higher than what the English etc have to pay here. Who is discriminating against who now?"

Your brain doesn't work properly.
14

sm753,

17/07/2008 10:09:22
#18

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

...and committed an act of TARGETED DISCRIMINATION against those from the rest of the UK. Which would not be permitted if Scotland were "independent".

Why is this? How can it be justified?

Why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are studying at home? Wouldn't it be better for them to learn more of the world than their own parochial doorstep?

There are only two logical explanations. It's either discrimination on the basis of place of origin (which I call crypto-racism) or it's a calculated attempt to segregate Scots students from their fellow Britons in the hope this increases support for the Nats.

Or maybe it's both. Nice party you support.
15

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/07/2008 11:03:14
Save us from those undergraduates undertaking general arts, psychology, geography (unless they intend to teach), human kinetics (unless they become Olympians), and fine arts.

Useless degrees and won't get you a job anywhere except in some third-world backwater.
16

sm753,

17/07/2008 11:20:13
#22

"Scots have to pay fees elsewhere in the UK to study, what is the difference?"

The difference (for the hard of thinking amongst us) is that the rest of the UK does not DISCRIMINATE against a particular target group - you pay fees if you are English, Scots, Welsh, Irish (north or south), French, German, Maltese, Estonian and so on and on.

The Nat administration is the only one I know of which has a policy of TARGETED DISCRIMINATION against those from other parts of its own country. It is the equivalent of Bavaria waiving fees only for Bavarians and other EU non-Germans, but charging those from the rest of Germany.

It is indefensible.

Noticeable that the usual Nat apologists who infest this place are silent. What's the matter? Struck dumb? Ashamed?

You should be.
17

sm753,

17/07/2008 11:44:34
#24 Mr Barra

I cannot believe I need to explain this. Let's take it very slowly.

It is, by definition, logically impossible to "discriminate against everybody" because if you do that you are not "discriminating"; you are treating everyone equally.

"Discrimination" occurs when you pick out one group for different treatment. Which is what the Nats have done.

Can you understand that? Hello?

And no, I haven't backtracked on anything. To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience? Do we have something against them going to Bristol, Cardiff, Belfast - oh yes, and Oxbridge - mixing with their fellow Britons and discovering we're all pretty much alike?

And for that matter, why do YOU think:

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

So you yourself discriminate against anyone who isn't a "flower of Scotland" or (sic) "continetal".

Can I ask why? Do you have some sort of problem with someone's race or origins?
18

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:01:46
Wake up and smell the coffee!

If scots had to pay for university, the figures attending would be much lower than is now, giving free places to EU students reinforces the point.

To entice non eu students with a bribe of a 2 year workpermit for studying in scotland (which wasnt on offer to non eu students studying in England)again shows how bankrupt the scotch education system has become.

Scotch universities are dead in the water without British tax payers money.
19

sm753,

17/07/2008 12:12:44
Mr Barra

The only discrimination going on here is that of the Nat administration against other British students. Under EU rules it is not allowed to discriminate against other EU citizens. If Scotland were an independent state then it would similarly not be allowed to discriminate against the UK.

Explain and justify this please. You seem to be arguing that "geographical" discrimination is OK. Mmm, discrimination on the basis of origin against one particular targeted group. You think that's acceptable?

I was asking for your attitudes because YOU said:

"This is a wonderful thing they SNP have don, they have thrown the doors open to the flowers of Scotland and continetal students. Brilliant!"

...implying you also have something against those who are not Scots or "continetal". What would that be, pray?
20

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:14:29
#30

"N Irlenad get proportionally more spent on her than Scotland"

Really? A link to you're source for proof that N Ireland's universities get more than Scotland would be interesting, but we both know you're talking cr*p.

21

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:07
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
22

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:16
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
23

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:17:45
25 sm753,
You wrote
To repeat, why is it "welcomed" that more Scots are staying home to study? Isn't the point of university to broaden one's experience?

No the point of going to university is to get further education, or, at least that was the reason I went, if students are only going to broaden their experience, then they are wasting their own, and taxpayers money, and are probably the cause of high dropout numbers.
24

hertscot,

17/07/2008 12:18:36
Sorry about that
25

Upandunder,

17/07/2008 12:21:47
Agree #21.

Britain as a whole needs fewer universities and fewer UK citizens going to university. And more people going to shorter and cheaper vocation-based courses.

It is a disgrace that universities are raking money in from young people - leaving graduates with a) huge debts and b) a degree in a pointless subject.

The whole university system should be revamped, and degrees should be available only in vital disciplines ranging from engineering to the sciences, languages and the like.

Not "media studies" and all that nonsense. Too many degrees and too many people getting into debt. And more to the point, taxpayers should not be subsidising people who drink, smoke and eat pizza for three years and leave a red-brick with a Desmond or a Third.
26

Alan B,

17/07/2008 12:22:08
#AM2 "I consider the SNP's decision to discriminate between English and Scottish students to be reprehensible"

I really do not understand your comments, other than trying to create some daft argument against the snp.

Within the current constitutional settlement it is the resonspibility of the sp to whether to charge tution fees or not.

Westminster the parliament in charge of this for england decided to introduce tution fees for english students. That scottish mps can vote on an english matter is a democratic deficit of the uk constitution and something that should be address but not something you can lay at the door of the snp. Labour are to blame for that mess.

So the fact remains westminster raises tax to fund english education and english students and scotland gets a share under barnett to spend on scottish education.

What u seem to want is for scotland to spend part of its allocation on funding english students. This completely daft for 2 reasons.

1)a scottish student going to study in england would not get his fees by the english body and so it would be completely discriminatory and disadvantageous to scotland.
2)scotland being so much smaller than england and with about 10% of the budget being 10% of the size (i know the 10% is rough), would be expected to fund student using this english students using this much small budget. Barmy.

The solution to this is:
1)england scrap tution fees so not student in uk pays them
2)england is responsible for funding english students (this could be no matter where they study) and scotland her students out of their own budgets.

The reason english students pay tution fees it because westminster choose to bring this in. (The democractic deficit for england at westminster is a different issue).
27

Alan B,

17/07/2008 12:32:43
#38 Upandunder

Do not really agree with you regarding fewer universities and fewer students.

Most of the degrees which you advocate are vocational which i agree with. It was more the tradional red brick university degree that was meaningless in terms of the workplace and was more for educations sake.

I think most degrees in scotland are actually good and beneficial. The few that are not should be routed out. Degrees should be quite vocational tradional degree subjects like medicine or others.

In many ways the point of a degree going forward is to make a school leaver employable and allow them to get a good job and rewarding career.

One problem with you attitude of cutting the number of degree students is if others do not, scottish people that would otherwise have done a degree, will not be able to compete in the global job market with others that have even with the same underlying abilities.

You have to compete in the world we live rather than assume global companies and multinations that are big employers will suddenly decide that a scottish student on a short vocation course is the same as a degreed student from another european country.
28

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 12:36:26
#39

" 2)scotland being so much smaller than england and with about 10% of the budget being 10% of the size (i know the 10% is rough), "

Scots and % dont add up!


£7.5 billion British tax payers money to England
£1.6 billion British tax payers money to Scotland




"The Scottish Funding Council (SFC) distributes more than £1.6 billion to Scotland’s colleges and universities for teaching and learning, research and other activities in support of Scottish government priorities."

tinyurl.com/5dnp79


"The total HEFCE grant available for the 2008-09 academic year is £7,476 million."

tinyurl.com/5aruse



29

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 12:45:05
Alan B
It is the fact that the SP chooses to charge other UK citizens a fee for attending their Universities. If they do not want to charge fees and fund higher education in another way than that is fine, up to them. But discriminating against people because of race is a little rude, is it not?
30

sm753,

17/07/2008 12:55:05

Right, Mr Barra has gone off to struggle with the idea of basic logic and the dictionary definition of "discrimination", and we have another Nat apologist in the form of #39 AlanB. Perhaps you can help us:

Why do the Nats "welcome" the idea of more Scots students staying at home?

Why do the Nats financially discriminate against non-Scots Britons but NOT against non-Scots Europeans - something which would be barred by the EU under independence?

The only logical conclusion is that:

- the Nats see some advantage in keeping the Scots at home and other Brits away

- and/or they just hate the other Brits.

Justify this if you can.
31

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:01:12
Oh #34 and #38

I agree that the main point of university is a useful degree, and that in recent years we (the UK) has probably swung from having too few in higher education to too many.
32

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:04:50
O Mr Barra, still here and still failing to understand what "discrimination" is.

The Nats are the only administration in Europe to financially discriminate against students who originate from other parts of their own country, but NOT from other European countries. Something they wouldn't be allowed to do if they were independent.

Why is this? What is their motive?
33

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:09:29
One more time:

No, it is not justifiable or reciprocal.

In England, Wales, NI or the rest of the EU the rule is EITHER "pay up - done" for EVERYONE or "no fees - done" for EVERYONE.

Only in Nat Scotland is it "No fees - done; oh, except for you, you and you non-Scottish Brits".

Defend the indefensible, please. It's either prejudice or some nefarious plan to keep Scots and other Brits apart.
34

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 13:16:49
#54

10% of scots elect to study in English universities.

1% of English elect to study in scotch universities.

£.0 for a scot to study in scotsland

£3000 a year for a scot to study in England, seems to me the brightest 10% go south for an education.
35

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:18:43
Mr Barra

"It's called "positive discrimination" crypto idiot. And that is allowed."

It's not positive anything, because it is singling out one small group (non-Scots Brits) for worse treatment than the REST OF THE EU. Got it?

"Now, answer my question posed earlier. "Do you support the county wide discrimination that universities run insofar that they are outwith the reach of poor people?"

Ooo, a transparent attempt to avoid my question with an irrelevant one of your own. I asked mine first, pal.

"And for the record, if Scotland chooses to become independant, she can do whatever she likes. If she chooses to enter the EU, then she would have to consider her position on this."

Truer to say that with policies like that in place Scotland would be barred from entry into the EU. Because policies like that were tried out in the 30s, and didn't turn out so well, did they?
36

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 13:18:43

Oh Poster 54 that's exactly what is happening according to the article. More EU students for Scottish Uni's, less English/Welsh students. That "discrimination' will be leading to less money for Scots University coffers.
37

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:20:58
David
I think you could benefit from some further education. Firstly it is discriminatory. Parking it under the 'positive discrimination' banner is a little ridiculous given that it applies to an entire country. Secondly, of course it would be great if all barriers to a university education were removed. However, this policy is not means tested, it is decided on race not wealth.
38

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 13:26:14
#58

"10% of Scots and 1% of English, in number terms, is the same"


10% is 10 times greater than 1%

you really are a fool!
39

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:29:03
I shall give it another go. The issue with the policy is not about wealth. If it were means tested, i.e. poor UK residents don't pay, wealthy ones do or no one paid fees then no one would be on here discussing it. The problem is it discriminates on racial grounds, which is simply wrong.
40

sm753,

17/07/2008 13:39:12
65

"But discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up, no?"

Yes, and a policy which is discriminatory IN PRINCIPLE remains discriminatory regardless of the numbers of people who are, in the end, affected.

Let's try again:

- why do the Nats "welcome" more Scots studying at home?

- why do they financially discriminate against non-Scots Brits and NOT against non-Scots Europeans?

They are either prejudiced or trying to engineer some electoral benefit. Or both.

Is there anyone out there who can defend this?

I'm off for a bit. Bye for now.
41

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:40:29
65
You were nattering on about the poor, hence i assumed you had a point to make about wealth in relation to this policy.
The SP has made a racial distinction, if you are from England, you are different and you have to pay. This is very simple.
42

Brian Hill,

17/07/2008 13:41:33
An excellent lesson on how to manipulate figures, in this case to make you look smarter than the rest of the country...include previous diploma course with university course....sorted!

"Ucas attributed the bigger rises in England and Wales to the inclusion of nursing and midwifery diploma courses south of the Border for the first time."

Wonder how many other English based stats have been equally doctored to make England look as if it's been subsidising Scotland since the Romans and that Scottish Oil actually ran out in 2003.....ooops, slipped up there, Smithers slight readjustment need...make that 2013...
43

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:53:21
David, When you lie in bed wondering why the majoity of us do not support independance, you need think no longer, it is of the likes of you. Until you take you blinkers off and start to use reason then perhaps you will notice that not all government policies are good, regardless of where they come from. You need to look in colour rather than black and white. Policies based on discrimination have no place in a modern society such as ours.
44

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 13:54:53
Yes, I see harm in Yorkshire Universities offering no fees for yorkshire folk. As a society we should not discriminate, as simple as that Dave.
45

maximum,

Edinburgh 17/07/2008 14:07:34
Regionalism, discrimination, bad. I cannot put it simpler. Free University Education should be the right of all, we should not discriminate against other regions and charge them. As was pointed out we should be encouraging all to come to Scotland, from all regions of the UK, learn and hopefully stay and prosper. This policy supports to worst type of bigotry and regionalism. Legal loophole, you said it yourself, it is wrong, without the hole in the law Salmond wouldn't be able to do it. hopefully someone will plug it.
46

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:19:40
#74 Daft from a barr

10% (2,260) of Scots first degree graduates obtained there first degree in England
1% (3,240) of English first degree graduates obtained there first degree in Scotland

2007-2007 Qualifiers (first degree)

22,265 First Degree awards to Scots studying in Scotland

2,260 (10% of 22,265) First Degree awards to Scots studying in England

40 First Degree Awards to Scots studying in Wales

10 First Degree Awards to Scots studying in N Ireland


24,575 Total (9% of all first degree awards UK)

*


217,830 First Degree Awards to English studying in England

3,240 (1% of 217,830)First Degree Awards to English studying in Scotland

7,205 First Degree Awards to English studying in Wales


70 First Degree Awards to English studying in N Ireland


228,345 Total (83% of all first degree awards UK)
47

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:30:08
#78
you're crazy

England is more than 10 times the population of Scotland.

Just accept the fact , that more % of scots need to travel to England for an education.
48

Alan B,

17/07/2008 14:31:36
#maximum

I really do not understand your point regarding the scottish parliament not funding english students.

"The SP has made a racial distinction"
That is wrong. Someone english living in scotland will get their tution fees paid in scotland. It is not racial but where you live.

The point is the scottish parliament gets funding from westmisnter via barnett that is used for funding scottish education.

Westmister directly funds education for english students (ie students living in england not necessarily where u are born).

Why should the scottish budget for education be used to fund english students ie students from england when that is what the english educational budget is for.

The fact is if scotland funded english students the only student discriminated against would be scottish students studying in england. As neither the scottish or english budget would pick up their tution fees.

It makes no sense for the scottish budget to pay for english students or the english budget pay for scottish students. Yes argue about the democractic deficits or barnett etc which are the real issues and problems.

The fact is with england 10 times the size and u wanted scotlands budget to finance english students in scotland and vice versa in england you could have major issues with the scottish budget proportional smaller than englands.

At the end of the day the reason english students pay tution fees is down to the democractically elected government as westminster.
49

Alan B,

17/07/2008 14:37:36
#Janis

"That "discrimination' will be leading to less money for Scots University coffers."

How? You post does not make sense.
50

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:42:39
Alan B,17/07/2008 14:31:36

So you're happy to see British tax payers money be used to provide free education to EU students, but against British tax payers money being used to finance English student's.
51

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:47:14
#84

1 out of every 2 eu students that apply to scottish universities get a place in scottish universities.

1 out of 3 scottish students that apply to scottish universities get a place.

Harriot Watt for example would rather give a place to an eu student over an student resident in edinburgh , because the eu student will live in the student accomadation for the first year at least, whilst the scot will most likely stay with his mum and dad.

It's about the money!

52

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 14:51:22
dave from a bar and alan b?

Why is it that a far lower % of scotch population manage to qualify for university , when compaired against the english population , imagine how lower the figures would be if the scots had to pay.?
53

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 15:04:41

Alan B @ 83 My point was that as there are more EU students arriving @ Scots Universities ..... more finance required for their Tuition Fees. And less English/Welsh students who would have been paying their own fees. But I suppose this financial loss will be passed on to the UK taxpayer? In which case read post 85.
54

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 15:05:59
2009 entry:

763 increase in apllications to English universities from EU students (26,915 to 27,651)

405 increase in application to Scottish universities from eu students (10,281 to 10,686)

763 x £9000 (£3000 a year for 3 years)= £2,289,000 to english universities

405 x £0.00 (£0.00 a year for 4 years) = £0.00,000 to scottish universities
55

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:11:05
#85 The Answer

"So you're happy to see British tax payers money be used to provide free education to EU students, but against British tax payers money being used to finance English student's."

Can you read. Where exactly did i say anything like that. I did not. So please do not make it up.

What i said and i do not know why it is so difficult to understand is : i support the scottish education budget financing scottish students (that is students from scotland they could be engish born but live here with their families eg went to school here) and the english educational budget funding english students. That is quite simple and easy to understand. It is not discriminatory and anything else actually would be as i have pointed out in my posts above, within a devolved arrangement.


As for european student issue. firstly i have not commented on that so why attach a view to me that i have not said. My comments are sharper this time as i do not like being deliberately misrepresented.

The european student issue is a different matter. It is caused by silly rules by the EU not by the snp (so by impication u are wrong). I am generally supportive of the EU but not this policy which i think is daft.

My general view is each country should be responsble for the funding arrangements of its own students. I have not problem with the eu having a rule whereby the a country is forced to give their own student the same funding arrangements no matter what country within the eu they choose to study.

56

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:15:17
#Janis B

Firstly i think the eu rule that a country has to fund the students of another country is daft.

It is good for the uk and scotland to have students from overseas but they should either be funded by their own government or through paying fees. Or some reciprical arrangement between countries.

"But I suppose this financial loss will be passed on to the UK taxpayer? "
Any eu students studying in scotland will come out the scottish budget and they will not be compensated by westminster.


57

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:19:13
#Dave from Barra

It is EU rules that mean a country within the eu has to fund other eu countries students in the same way it does for its own students.
58

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 15:22:57

Oh well Alan B @ 97. If the Scottish taxpayer is happy to fund EU students but not English/Welsh students, so be it. Discrimination!!
59

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:28:10
#Janis B

Are you trying to be silly. "the Scottish taxpayer is happy to fund EU students but not English/Welsh students"

I said the arrangements for scotland to fund eu students is an EU rule. So it is not about being happy with it or not. These are the rules that the uk stupidly signed up for.

You also do not seen to have understood my post regarding if scotland funded english based students. You obviously support that and hence you support the discrimination of scottish students that choose to study in england as they would not have their fees paid by the english budget.

I would to an extent be happy paying for engish students fees out of the scottish budget if scottish students in england had their fees paid.

Although i do worry as i pointed out becuase of the differing sizes of the population and the roughly porportionate budgets it would cause problems.



60

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:30:17
#Dave from Barra

I actually think this was part of the real reason blair brought in tution fees. He knew the tories would make a mockery of the uk having to fund german and french students or those from eastern europe.

By bringing in tution fees then the student of that country would have to pick up the tab.
61

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 15:30:21
#98

Upon independence i'm sure you will be happy to educate the English for free, eu rules will force scotland to treat the english in exactly the same way you treat other eu countries.

I like that idea very much.

The only spanner in the works is, how on earth are the scots universities going to compete against english universities that need only half the ammount of tax payers money.
62

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:36:12
#The Answer

As i said i think it is a daft rule by the EU.

Do honestly think it is right if england were to have no tution fees then it would have to pay for french student fees or those students from the rest of europe?

From a scottish perspective if the number of overseas students ie eu students become too many then it may be forced to adopt tution fees.

You are correct the downside to scotland having no tution fees could be lack of funding for universities. While the up side is to encourage more students particulcarly from poorer backgrounds and not have them burdened by debt on graduation.
63

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:38:46
A Scottish degree tends to be a year longer ie 4yrs rather than 3 yrs in England as england do an extra year at school.

They have a 2yr a'level while scotland has a 1yr higher.

64

Alan B,

17/07/2008 15:43:31
#The Answer

"how on earth are the scots universities going to compete against english universities that need only half the ammount of tax payers money."

While i have acknowlegdge above this could be an issue. A couple of things to remember. Tution fees are effectively a tax. So it really all comes down to how you fund higher education through general taxation or a specific tution tax.

If a scottish uni is to have a similar funding to an english uni then it will have make more money available from general tax.

Polcies like this actually undermine the whole barnett formula, which i would like to do away with anyway and another argument for fiscal autonomy.
65

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 15:49:50
#105

Crappy!

£1.6 billion tax payers money to produce 22,265 scots first degree graduates

£7.5 billion tax payers money to produce 217,830 english first degree graduates


£1,600,000,000 divide by 22,265 (scots graduates) = £71,000 cost per scot graduate.


£7,500,000,000 divide by 217,830 (english graduates) = £34,000 cost per english graduate

66

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 15:55:14
alan b wrote:

"While the up side is to encourage more students particulcarly from poorer backgrounds and not have them burdened by debt on graduation."

read this and weep about lower rates of participation of scots in universities.

tinyurl.com/5usdbr
67

Janis B,

london 17/07/2008 15:56:06

Hawkeye the Noo ....110 .... English Government, if only. The legislation to inflict tuition fees on English students was pushed through with the help of Scottish MP's. And yes I know SNP MP's did not vote on that issue, but Fiona Hyslop, within a very few days after 3rd May 2007, announced no waive for English students' fees at Scots.University....nice !
68

Alan B,

17/07/2008 16:04:59
#114 Janis B

The point you raise about the democratic deficit is an important issue that needs to be resolved.

Either full independence or a some sort of english parliament bringing the uk into a symetrical federal system is necessary to solve the issue.
69

Alan B,

17/07/2008 16:08:24
#The Answer

U seem abit all over the place.

Are you arguing about the merits of tution fees or scottish funding of english students. You seem to be mixing the 2.


"lower rates of participation of scots in universities"


do not have time to check the figures (scotland traditonally always had higher participation levels). But just using ur posted figures

-22,265 scots first degree graduates
-217,830 english first degree graduates

suggest a higher participation rate in scotland given that scotland has 8.*% of the population.

70

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 16:12:20
#115

"Looks like that extra money was worth it, eh?"

Really?

.60% of England's population qualified as new undergraduates 2007 (13% higher than Scotland)

.53% of Scotlands population qualified as new undergraduates 2007 (12% lower than England)


71

Alan B,

17/07/2008 16:13:35
#The Answer

Using your link it seems their is a higher participation in scottish univesrities.

ur spreadsheet links say "Total full-time first degree entrants" - 273425 england and 30915 in scotland. So participation as a portion of the population does seem the opposite of what u say using ur own link.
72

Alan B,

17/07/2008 16:22:36
#The Answer

how are u working out these percentages. England has a population of 50million and scotland 5million. So we are talking about 10%.

Using ur own figures
-22,265 scots first degree graduates
-217,830 english first degree graduates

if u divide that by the total population sizes i mentioned and multiply by 100 that gives scotland a participation rate of 0.45% in scotland and 0.44% in england.
73

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 16:43:33
#119

Total first degree awards all UK instituions 2007

228,345 England (83%)
24,575 Scotland (9%)
13,470 Wales (5%)
10,325 N Ireland (3%)

Figures do not included Diplomas of 78,000 (England) 289 (Wales)

74

Alan B,

17/07/2008 16:49:45
#128 The Answer

That suggests a higher participation rate in scotland, given that scotland has 10% of the english population. Although it is close.

75

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 16:50:13
#128

My figures are correct!

But England is fighting with one hand tied behind it's back, even though every thing is free in scotland , England still acheives more with less.

Population
50,762,000 England
5,116,000 Scotland

New Undergraduates entry to UK institutions 2008
306,959 England
27,218 Scotland





.60% of England's population qualified as new undergraduates 2007 (13% higher than Scotland)

.53% of Scotlands population qualified as new undergraduates 2007 (12% lower than England)




76

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 16:57:49
#122

i'm sorry you cant do maths!
77

sm753,

17/07/2008 17:09:41

Well it's been 3.5 hours and still no-one has come forward to answer:

- why do the Nats "welcome" the fact that more Scots are studying at home?

- why do the Nats financially discriminate against non-Scots Brits, ALONE out of the entire EU?

And no-one has refuted the logical conclusion that it can only be some combination of prejudice (racial, national, regional, it makes no difference) with some calculation of advantage to be gained from the arrangement.
78

Highland Mighty©,

17/07/2008 17:11:56
115. Careful, you are in danger of revealing one of the 'union dividends'!
79

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 17:15:40
#121

New undergraduates 2007 entry


I double checked and 7% is the correct sum for Scotland!

306,959 England (84%)
27,218 Scotland (7%)
17,366 Wales (5%)
13,001 N I Ireland (4%)

364,544 Total UK domiciles entering UK universities 2007
tinyurl.com/5d38lw


80

sm753,

17/07/2008 17:16:45
I'll put you out of your misery, shall I?

The missing factor is MONEY. But it doesn't make it any less squalid.

The policy discussion between "Two Dinners" Salmond and "Ethnic Cleanser" Hyslop went something like this:

"Let's abolish university fees."

"OK, but we might get a lot of English, Welsh and N Irish coming up here. We don't want to spend "our" money educating "them"".

"Tell'em we're not paying their fees if they don't come from here."

"We can do that for the Brits, but not for the Europeans. We'll still end up educating a few Germans, Poles and the like for free."

"Well there won't be too many of them. And anyway it's not them we hate, is it?"

"Pity about the Welsh and Northern Irish."

"Too bad."

"And it means our youngsters will be less likely to go abroad, and there will be fewer Brits here. So our lot will be more parochial and more likely to vote for us!"

"That works for me!"

Squalid and disgusting.
81

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 17:29:42
#135

The English are getting the last laugh!

42,943 rise in Applications for 2008 entry England universities from around the world!

801 rise in Applications for 2008 entry Scotland universities from around the world!

Table 5

tinyurl.com/5dh6bu
82

sm753,

17/07/2008 17:42:54
#137

Again you fail to address the central point. It is NOTHING to do with policies in England, Wales or anwhere else.

Why is your Nat government willing to educate French, Germans, Poles, Maltese, Estonians and all the rest for free alongside the Scots, but not English, Welsh or N Irish? Does it place them in some sort of lower category of humanity?

Why is it doing this as a devolved administration when it could not do it as (God forbid) the sovereign government of an EU Member State? (And yes, Mr Barra, I noticed you slithering away from defending your position to admitting it was wrong but "Gosh, isn't Salmond cheeky)

Why is it "welcoming" the fact that more Scots are studying at home? What scares them about the prospect of young Scots studying down south or abroad? That it might make them less likely prospects for Nationalism?

Take your time.
83

sm753,

17/07/2008 19:10:05
#139

"The Scottish Government have introduced policies to suit the people of Scotland."

This doesn't answer any of my questions.

Why is it good for Scotland to have more young Scots studying at home?

Why is it good for Scotland to educate Poles & Portuguese for free but not English, Welsh & Irish?

Or is it only good for the Nats?

"...something that was started and approved by the weak-kneed, mealy-mouthed and wholly embrassing Scottish Exec of the bad old days..."

Frankly not very effective since I don't support Labour or the Liberals either.

It was a dumb and indefensible policy then, and the Nats have only made it more so. Graduates earn more so they should pay. And our universities need the resources to compete to do world-class research, as well as teach.
84

sm753,

17/07/2008 19:32:16

I also find it interesting and instructive how little pressure it takes to change our Nats' tune from "don't worry, we'll still be in the EU and have a social union with the UK" to "we will be alone to do exactly what we want".

Sounds like Mugabe, 2008, or various European leaders, 1923, 1933 and 1994.
85

The Answer,

Glasgow 17/07/2008 19:58:31
#144
Is there a snp ploy to keep scots out of the worlds top universities?

Or is the scotch education really so bad!

I notice undergraduates from Wales out number Scots at Oxford university!

First Degree undergraduates
9,141 England
362 Wales
239 Scotland
151 N Ireland


tinyurl.com/5ehwfp
86

sm753,

17/07/2008 20:30:46
#144

"Because of a hundred different reasons. "

All of which contravene the principle of university admission on academic merit across the EU, regardless of origin.

"To stop Scottish universities getting flooded with English, Welsh and NI students"

"Flooded", eh? Enoch Powell would be proud. But you don't mind the other Europeans turning up. A discriminatory policy remains discriminatory regardless of the numbers affected.

"But you are a unionist and so are they. So the policy of charging English students was also a unionist policy."

So you believe that if I am a unionist, and my cat is a unionist, then I am a cat. Aristotle really did live in vain in your case, didn't he?

"you don't understand the fundamental principles of Scottish education, the thing that has given it the world class reputation over the ages - which is free education for all people in Scotland"

Sadly the "world class reputation" has been exposed as myth in the last decade or so, hasn't it? School performance has been sliding, and as for the universities, the top-ranking Scottish one is Edinburgh at 53. Well below Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, UCL and Manchester.

#145

You're being a bit silly and rude. There are some good historical reasons for the under-representation of Scots at Oxbridge - the different legal system for one, and the perception of a better match between Scottish Highers and the four-year degree.

The latter is actually false, as my personal experience was that having the Scottish school qualifications resulted in a much easier (in fact ridiculously so) Oxbridge offer.
87

,

17/07/2008 20:41:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 18/07/2008 11:04:38
I get the feeling that "The Answer" is talking to his or her self because NOBODY is listening!

Go out, get some fresh air, and GET SANE SOONEST, dear person.

 

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