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Haymarket next for chaos on roads



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Published Date: 15 August 2008
MOTORISTS were today warned to brace themselves for "massive disruption" as the city's tram works reach the congested Haymarket junction.
Car drivers, bus and taxi passengers, and cyclists will all have to cope with a series of diversions, no entry signs and one-way systems from early tomorrow morning.

Drivers heading towards the city centre will find themselves re-routed along residential streets. Shorter diversions will be in place for buses, although fears were raised today that motorists will be confused by the different rules.

The seven-month project officially gets under way on Monday, just days before pupils go back to school and roads traditionally get busier.

Major tailbacks are expected during the morning rush hour along Corstorphine Road and the West Approach Road.

There will be five separate phases of the project, each with minor traffic changes, before the work is finished in February – with a break for the Christmas holidays.

The Hearts War Memorial will be kept in place for this year's remembrance service, then is likely to be put in storage until a new location is chosen, with a position in front of a revamped Haymarket Station considered the most likely of four options.

Utility pipes underneath road surfaces are being moved to make way for the £512 million line from Newhaven to Edinburgh Airport.

Willie Gallagher, executive chairman of TIE – the firm behind the plans – said: "The Haymarket location is both a vital artery to the city and a critical part of the Edinburgh tram project.

"With this in mind we have developed a robust traffic management system to minimise congestion, to ensure the continued movement of bus services and ensure the safety of pedestrians.

"We have worked very closely with Haymarket local businesses and residents groups to address their concerns and needs, and we appreciate their involvement."

City transport leader Phil Wheeler added: "The construction process is never a quick and easy one, as other cities with successful tram networks can vouch for, but ultimately the result is well worth it."

From tomorrow, drivers heading from Corstorphine Road will be diverted north along Magdala Crescent, which will become one-way, then along Eglinton Crescent, which along with Glencairn Crescent will operate as a clockwise one-way system.

From there, they can travel south-east along Palmerston Place to Torphichen Street, or along Chester Street. West Maitland Street will remain open to vehicles, with access from Dalry Road and Morrison Street. However, motorists are still banned from Shandwick Place and are re-routed via Melville Street.

Drivers heading away from the centre will not face so many diversions, and will still be able to travel from Morrison Street through the Haymarket junction to Haymarket Terrace or Dalry Road. TIE today said it plans to keep this arrangement in place throughout the works.

Drivers will also be able to use Palmerston Place or Manor Place to reach Torphichen Place.

Bruce Young, Lothian and Borders co-ordinator of the Association of British Drivers, warned that people would be confused and frustrated by the changes.

"The disruption is going to be massive," he said. "At the best of times, Corstorphine Road is a bottleneck.

"I would like to think that people will be able to find another way, but the options are being closed off one-by-one. And last week, I noticed that cars are driving along Shandwick Place anyway, ignoring the restrictions. It's reached the stage where people don't have much option."

Buses, taxis and bikes heading towards the city centre will be able to continue along Haymarket Terrace as far as Rosebery Crescent, which will become one-way.

There will be local access for residents, but Grosvenor Crescent and Lansdowne Crescent will operate in an anti-clockwise one-way system, and the entrance off Palmerston Place will be blocked by no-entry signs.

Buses will then travel along Grosvenor Street and back along West Maitland Street towards the city centre, via Shandwick Place.

Services affected include the number 12, 26, 31, X48, and the Airlink bus, which will additionally halt at the APEX Hotel and West Maitland Street.

Bill Campbell, Lothian Buses' operations director, said today: "Extensive planning has gone into the bus route diversions which are designed to result in as little or no disruption for bus passengers."

Gordon Wyllie, chairman of the West End Community Council, said local residents have been offered parking concessions and assured that "disruption will be kept to a minimum", but said there are still concerns.

"Many people in the West End question the appropriateness of undergoing such disruption in favour of installing a tram system that few residents approve of," he said. "The local traders are still suffering, and some are afraid they will go under. Many people just want it all to be over."


GOGAR ROUNDABOUT SECTION TO FINISH A WEEK EARLY
MOTORISTS received some good news today after it was announced that tram works at the Gogar roundabout are to finish a week early.

The project will be completed by next Monday, just before pupils go back to school.

Motorists have reported fewer hold-ups than expected at the key roundabout, which is used by workers at Edinburgh Park and shoppers at the Gyle. Four lanes on the north side of the roundabout were reduced to two, with further lane closures on approach roads including the city bypass and A8 eastbound.

Willie Gallagher, the executive chairman of trams company TIE, pictured left, said today: "I am extremely pleased with the progress of this section of the work and with project as a whole so far.

"We are committed to delivering a world-class tram network as quickly and as safely as possible and I am confident that with the measures we have put in place for this phase of the project, this will be achieved."

The work at Gogar involved moving and reinforcing utility pipes ahead of a project to build a tunnel beneath the roundabout's underpass.

This will link the tram depot on the north side of the roundabout with the Gyle and Edinburgh Park on the opposite side.




The full article contains 1020 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

15/08/2008 11:43:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

The_Doctor,

15/08/2008 11:43:28
The Haymarket area is already chaos. Just try crossing the street to get to the station.

Most of the crossings are blocked with big red barriers, and the temporary replacements are totally inadequate. Where there used to be 4 or 5 crossings, now there is one. People are having to walk on the road beside traffic just to cross the road. It's very dangerous.

But, hey, what's a few road accident victims as long as TIE get their $1Billion tramline?
3

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:02:16
#3 - Agreed. TIE Has shown themselves to be grossly incompetent (again) in planning at Haymarket with crossings moved half way up Dalry Road for no apparent reason and the movement of the lights at Haymarket eastbound causing long tailbacks every morning, as they have placed the bus stop in the single lane section and have left insufficient space for traffic to wait in at the lights.

And typical this morning of 7 "workies", six were smoking or having a coffee while only one did any work.

One other question. Is someone at TIE on a kickback for all the pointless metal barriers they have installed?
4

PaulB,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:05:48
Chaos was predicted at Gogar but guess what? Work finished earlier than predicted and with fewer holdups. There has been far too much scaremongering with this story. And the project still appears to be on schedule. Sure things will work out fine at Haymarket too. Bring on the trams!
5

alex paterson,

edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:07:03
Haymarket is bad at any time,but this will be awful,the best bet is to go on holiday until its all finished.
6

The Wookie,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:15:20
1 + 2 + 3...

What's wrong with you guys - As a modern city we have to have a modern transport infrastructure - you lot sound like you fancy horse & cart as the next transport alternative...

Did you think fitting a tram network into a busy city would take 2 weeks and cost 20 quid...welcome to the real world!!!!

4#...correct..

The closure of Shandwick place was also meant to reduce Edinburgh to 3rd world status - what happned...NOWT

I'm with you - bring on the trams..

7

TankEngine,

Uphall 15/08/2008 12:16:04
What TIE have not said yet, it that the new works will start on the Gogar roundabout and underpass. This will cause a bit more chaos as you can see from the road/lane closure plan. It's also lastign a year to build a tunnel a few meters long?

http://www.tramtime.com/leaflets/A8_Underpass.pdf
8

Conrad Hunt,

15/08/2008 12:21:49

#6 Nobody wants the trams. Nit in the real workd anyway. Maybe you and Jar Jar Binks do, but you're not realand probably paid 10p per post by TIE
9

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:23:24
#6 - Trams are not modern - they are 19th century technology. Their inflexibility is why they were removed over 40 years ago.

They are massively expensive to install from scratch and in Edinburgh have a business case that shows them to be an economic failure from day 1.
10

Skip McClendon,

15/08/2008 12:24:27
#6

Trams ain't modern. They died out everywhere for a reason.

I'm all for modern public transport, but this ain't it.

This is causing massive inconvenience to the many, many thousands of people who get buses or trains from Haymarket every day. And for what? So we can have a tramline leading from some posh flats at the Waterfront to somewhere vaguely within sight of the airport.
11

The Judge,

15/08/2008 12:24:34
#6 where is this "tram network" you speak of? I only see one single line being built. Please don't give us any pie in the sky nonsense about building more lines, we can't even afford this line and the city council can only sell off the family silver once. So again where is this "network"?
12

Jenny MacArthur,

15/08/2008 12:31:23
Tee hee hee.
13

Findlay Thompson,

15/08/2008 12:31:53
Mr Wheeler will be the first against the wall "Come the glorious day".
14

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 12:42:57
#10, 11 The council has already protected the route for tram line 3. Please tell us which cities with a modern tram system have removed them or built a whole network in one go - clue: there aren't any. Dublin is expanding theirs, as is Manchester; most others want to. Both these great cities started from where we're going to now and haven't regretted it - just what do you think is different about Edinburgh? The project is on track and the money is there, despite what the doom mongers claim.
15

geekpie,

forfar 15/08/2008 12:49:46
I'm completely indifferent to delays to motorists.

One definition of selfish is engaging in behaviour that would be impossible if everybody did it. Bringing a car into the city every day falls into that category.
16

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 15/08/2008 12:51:36
Great !! I love seeing car drivers held up !!
17

calum,

15/08/2008 12:56:28
Actually, the business case (if there ever was one) for the tramLINE has collapsed, reference the recent stories about the imploding and failing Waterfront which is nowhere near predicted investment.
Sarah B, take a bow. TIE, producers of a pale pachyderm - no business case, no safety case.
18

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 15/08/2008 12:57:25
Me too no.17 !
19

KTCB41,

15/08/2008 12:57:39
Willie Gallagher, executive chairman of TIE – the firm behind the plans – said "We have worked very closely with Haymarket local businesses and residents groups to address their concerns and needs, and we appreciate their involvement."
However
Gordon Wyllie, chairman of the West End Community Council said "Many people in the West End question the appropriateness of undergoing such disruption in favour of installing a tram system that few residents approve of. The local traders are still suffering, and some are afraid they will go under. Many people just want it all to be over."

TIE Do a sort of "consultation lite", they speak to people so that they can say they spoke to people NOT because theire is any real intention of incorporating their view.

TTIE are being paid by Edinburgh Council to ram the Tram line through the streets of Edinburgh no matter what. I'm sure they will do that.

Not sure what happens if it's not the success it's promised to be. No doubt we'll be told by thoise who's current line seems to be that it will sole all our problems that it's just a tram line and was never going to solve all our problems.

20

Skip McClendon,

15/08/2008 12:58:33
#16

Which reminds me....where IS knownothing today?

Normally he'd be all over this one....telling us how none of this would slow him down, as he drives through / over all roadworks /mothers with prams /the disabled in his 4x4 on the way to Waitrose.
21

Hoof Hearted,

15/08/2008 12:58:44
#10. What do you mean by "vaguely within sight of the airport". This is wrong!
22

,

15/08/2008 12:59:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

,

15/08/2008 13:01:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 15/08/2008 13:03:39
16 - other examples of selfish behaviour are mums running kids to school in cars , and all descending on shops en masse on Friday afternoon when they have all week .
25

calum,

15/08/2008 13:03:42
MacArthur, Voice of Reason, Road Raga - Extreme views - opinion's one thing, but you guys contribute nothing.
26

Victoria Ian,

15/08/2008 13:03:45
An underground system is what the city really needs- obviously too expensive but why could they get these things done in the past (London, Newcastle, Glasgow etc)and not in modern times!!

Don't think this discruption will be as bad as portrayed. The Evening News are renowned for making mountains out of mole hills!
27

shuggee,

15/08/2008 13:04:10
#15 - Don't forget Nottingham David. They've just bid for more DfT money to extend the NET system.
28

Just another day,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 13:07:57
Whether you love the trams or hate them, want them or not, surely everyone has to agree it's a bit of a stretch for Willie Gallagher to refer to this project as a "world-class tram network".
29

calum,

Port Seton 15/08/2008 13:08:31
#26 At last, someone who realises that a transport infrastructure is need in this COUNTRY. And just how is the Edinburgh TramLINE going to make a strategic contribution to that whilst a manifesto pledge about the A9 is now overturned and tourists and residents continue to pay for it with their lives?
BTW, I think you'll find that economists and investors see the current economic situation as a little more than a "slow down". It could set investments back a decade in some areas of Scotland.
30

Ron D,

Enybru 15/08/2008 13:09:50
I approve of anything that makes life difficult for car drivers. This doesn't make it difficult enough.
31

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 15/08/2008 13:20:09
as motorists are as being shown just now with ban on using Shandwick Place unable to read road signs lets hope that the police put some of their traffic wardens around the diversions routes so as they can tell drivers where they can and can not go and book the van and private hire car drivers that completely ignore the diversions because they think they are better than the rest of us
32

Dr DoGood,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 13:33:55
Bruce Young states that options for drivers are running out has he forgott about public transport....you know like park your car outside city centre and get a bus or is that to difficult for someone like him and his association of petrol heads
33

The Judge,

15/08/2008 13:42:04
#15The council has already protected the route for tram line 3.

What a load of protrammie nonsense, there has been no protection from the city council for a third line. Christ they don't even have the money to build or repair the schools we already have and you think they'll be able to build a THIRD line??

There will never be a network because we don't want it and the city cannot afford it.

We had a referendum, the protrammies lost deal with it.
34

allknowing,

15/08/2008 13:44:03
Skip me olde friend.

As you know, Haymarket can be avoided by any means of transport, not just 4x4s. And yes, I can get to Waitrose without having to go anywhere near Haymarket. I am actully trying to think when I was last there, must be a while.

Like many residents in this city, the tram goes no where near my house. so these works dont affect me and my route to work! Unlike trams, I can divert around such things, in this respect, buses are FAR superior over trams, if not all aspects.

As you say, trams are not the answer to a modern transport infrastructure!
35

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 13:45:14
To all those people talking about how they do not care about car drivers being held up, well bus passengers, rail users and pedestrians are being massively inconvenienced by these appallingly planned and executed works.

And when it is all finished, it will not be the car driver or van driver that meets the £10m pa subsidy this line will need, but the bus passengers that don't use it and the council taxpayers who have to make up the deficit when Lothian Buses cannot pay any dividends.

Oh, and #23 - if you look at the tram project you will see that the planned airport stop is beyond the end of the taxi rank, almost next to the Hilton. This is a not inconsiderable distance to walk with luggage hence "vaguely in sight of the airport"
36

sodajerk,

15/08/2008 13:46:41
i take it somebody has actually measured the width of the road.
i t looks like it is gonna be awfy tight at some parts between Haymarket and the Zoo.
37

Arrow,

edinburgh 15/08/2008 13:54:15
London's Cross Rail system is an eye watering £16 billion and they are still looking for the Treasury (i.e. the taxpayers of the whole UK) to stump up £36 billion in the 2010-17 period. and we're the subsidy junkies????
let's see the Roseburn link being used for a tram + cycleway+ pedestrians with trams passing at 50kph under the bridges. damned lie (rhymes with Tie)
38

Optimus Prime,

Cybertron 15/08/2008 14:41:44
BUILD IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME......
39

mystic,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 15:09:48
In Hong Kong, you'd get this tramline all done in a month. But no, not here in Edinburgh, and certainly not in the UK. Workers only work a 5 day week and they have long tea breaks. Whats more, they get paid extremely high wages for doing nothing each day.
40

The Wookie,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 15:32:52

Dear Anti-Tram people of Edinburgh -

Here is the final Friday evening end of this conversation.

THE TRAMS ARE COMING AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT - SO GIT IT RIGHT UP YOU!!!

Goodnight and have a good weekend
41

Skip McClendon,

15/08/2008 15:49:56
#45

About the level of debate one would expect from a big, walking carpet.
42

thehitmaster,

Penicuik 15/08/2008 15:50:14
#37 Its fine to say use public transport but there is a bit of a problem, especially at peak times buses on certain routes are already running at full capacity so where are the extras seats going to come from?
43

tomias,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 16:19:33
Just what does the word " robust" mean?
44

Old Cartha Boy,

15/08/2008 16:21:06
Anyone got the know-how to set up a website that will host pictures of these industrious tram workers? I walked past a group of them in Leith Walk and laughed (quite quietly) as 7 of them watched one guy in a hole with a pick. (I agree it is probably not a good idea to wield a pick while on the phone, rolling a fag or enjoying s steak bake). One of them saw me laugh at the scene and offered to give me a doing out of me, an invitation I declined. But maybe their pictures in an obvious place is the answer? Be a good laugh anyway!
45

Skip McClendon,

15/08/2008 16:23:28
#48

Just because they are a fait accompli doesn't mean that people should not exercise their right to oppose them. Trident replacement is a fait accompli, the war in Iraq was a fait accompli. Yet people still protested against them, and it was their right to do so.

Now, I'm not trying to say that Trams are as important an issue as nuclear weapons or wars, but I'm sure you take my point.

Incidentally, I'm glad you could tell me what Chewie's point was....it seemed rather incoherent to me. :-)
46

Lisa from Steps,

15/08/2008 16:23:43
#2
If you use the crossings as intended you do not have to walk along the road. Its pretty obvious to most people that you use the new crossings.

simple really.
47

Douglas,

Bathgate 15/08/2008 16:28:25
#49 Tomias: It's an abbreviation of robot rust.

Isn't there a hole named after Wookie?
48

The_Doctor,

15/08/2008 16:31:33
#52

The temporary crossings are totally inadequate, and are also poorly signposted.

4 crossings from the Haymarket station side, heading in different directions, have been replaced by 1 temporary crossing near Haymarket terrace. There is very little space for even a dozen pedestrians to wait safely at that crossing, so there is absolutely zero chance of the thousands of pedestrians who arrive at peak travel times squeezing safely into that space.

If you try to cram too many people into too small a space, the end result is never good.
49

Euan,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 16:59:11
What we are about to witness is the next phase of the carving up and scarring of this fine City.

The congestion and disruption this is going to cause to commuters and locals will be catastrophic.

Willie Gallagher and his cronies are bleating on about how good their diversions via Eglinton Crescent etc are, but spare a though about local residents, many of whom are having to give up their residents permit spaces as a result.

Were they 'asked' if they were in favour of this idiotic tram project?, did they have a choice to say no to having huge amounts of unwanted traffic flowing past their houses?

NO is the answer, just like every citizen of this City wasn't asked whether they thought the trams were a good idea.

It has been forced upon Edinburgh by people who think they know best and seem to be willing to play around with this City and taxpayers money as if it were a game of Monopoly - except the money they are squandering is real, very real.

This construction of this money-gulping tram LINE is an absolute disgrace for Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole.

We should cut out losses and scrap it with immediate effect

50

Old Cartha Boy,

15/08/2008 17:03:50
Who says the trams project is a fait accompli? It only is when the first tram is running and I think we are a long way from that happening.
51

Edward,

15/08/2008 17:25:17
#9 GraemeH and others
Ok if trams are not modern
What in your opinion would be a far better option for a transit system for Edinburgh?
Its not a loaded question, Im just curious to hear what viable alternatives are out there.
52

Think Tank,

15/08/2008 17:30:25
I sense a certain deja vu reading all this.

It's a classic tram article:

PART ONE- predicted "massive disruption" of future tram works.

PART TWO- actual reports of no disruption and a section of works finishing ahead of schedule.

It's always the same.


Along with GrahameH banging on about his made-up "business plan" for the trams (available on the trams website). Grahame- it's blatantly obvious you haven't read the document! Just like it was obvious last month when you made up the same ridiculous claims.

53

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/08/2008 17:31:57
Who cares !
54

Euan,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 17:41:15
#57, Edward.

It's not the fact that many people are against trams themselves, they obviously are able to work well in many cities around the globe.

What the people of Edinburgh are against though is that so much money is being spent and so much disruption is being caused when Edinburgh simply does not need trams.

Edinburgh's road system has been badly meddled with by the previous Labour council, so much so, that they have falsely created congestion with their appalling road 'improvement' projects over the years.

Edinburgh already has an excellent 'transit' system as you put it - Lothian Buses. If you hinder their performance with badly-thought-out road projects, congestion will be created.

What Edinburgh really needs is an organization who understands traffic in this City, who are not simply in it for the green brownie points that the tram system is supposedly bringing, and who are willing to look after local residents by not constantly tinkering with their City's road system and making it worse in the process.





I
55

Edward,

15/08/2008 18:06:21
#60
Neither for or against the trams
I agree the previous Labour council made a mess of the transport infrastrure
Actually this has been something that Labour have been adept at on all previous council
I will mention that a certain Alistair Darling was transport convener for Edinburgh Council,and he made a dogs dinner of that (nothing changes )
56

Deag,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 18:13:54
GraemeH

You really don't know what you are talking about, the planned stop is outside the terminal where the private hire cabs stop currently. You do spout a load of rubbish.
57

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 20:19:56
#63 On drawings lodged with the business plan, it is beyond the end of the taxi rank, which is why the far car park is currently closed and being dug up.

Think Tank. I have reviewed the business plan at length. It is, quite simply a joke. Breakeven does not occur until 2017, at 26 million passengers a year (eqivalent to every single tram running at over 100% capacity for 19 hours a day). But even to reach this figure requires massive development at the waterfront, which must be considered in serious doubt and two new RBS-style developments at Gogar.

Taking TIE's own revenue and risk document and looking at the low planning case, which itself could be viewed as optimistic in the current climate suggests a revenue shortfall to base case in excess of £10m pa. Costs are unlikely to fall by much at all.

The business plan also excludes all ongoing refurbishment and replacement of tram rolling stock and the network infrastructure. In addition, being prepared over 2 years ago, it is also highly likely to exclude the huge rises in electricity costs we now have which will further impair the operating case. However given no detailed operating cost breakdown is included the impact of this cannot be quantified.
58

Scotish Exile,

15/08/2008 21:10:56
why the hell are trams needed, the bus service is already more than adequate, so I don't see why we need this expensive, inflexible system of transport
59

rs,

in ma house 15/08/2008 21:25:14
how does the trams take until 2017 to break even?

All the Capital costs have been paid up front!

Or is has the business case been "rigged" so that when the Trams announce a profit, they will be seen as the Saviour of Edinburgh
60

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 21:30:08
#66 - The reason they take so long is becuase the operating costs are massively higher than for the equivalent bus service. Break even in 2017 is due to an expected near doubling of passenger numbers following service commencement in 2011. If growth does not happen at the expected significant rate, which is likely and/or costs are higher than expected, which is also likely, break even will be pushed back or may never even happen at all!

To confirm, the business plan excludes all upfront capital and construction costs.
61

Ian down under,

Kawerau 15/08/2008 21:30:10
#9 Cars are old fashioned, they first appeared in the late 19th century, planes are old fashioned as we've had them nearly a century, boats are completely archaic too. Mind you people have had legs for millenia.

Comparing modern light rail with 19th century trams is a bit like comparing a TGV with a steam train.
62

rs,

in ma house 15/08/2008 23:23:56
67

thanks for info,

find the whole profit thing hard to follow,

Surely with a each tram crammed with 250 passengers and a monopoly on the route, the trams should be raking it in from day 1.

Maybe TIE have actually got something right, in that they have showed a loss, so that anything better will be shown as great work from TIE.
63

rs,

15/08/2008 23:40:11
City transport leader Phil Wheeler added: "The construction process is never a quick and easy one, as other cities with successful tram networks can vouch for, but ultimately the result is well worth it."

hold on have we missed something, TRAM NETWORK,

Is TIE writing Cllr Wheeler's press releases
64

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 15/08/2008 23:48:38
rs (66) Because trams are very expensive to run, unless they each carry thousands of passengers per km per hour.

Think Tank (58) - Please tell us why you think the business case is robust because my reading of it concurs with that of GraemeH. Indeed, by my calculation, the worst case scenario examined in the Revenue & Risk Report discloses possible losses to TEL Revenue of £52m per year and even that assumes that operating costs would not have increased significantly. The R&R Report spells out very clearly that the business case assumed the continuation of a strong economy and major developments being in place at Granton and the Waterfront before the tram started to run. Neither of these things now look probable and, as things stand, it will be Lothian Buses who will take a massive hit.

What makes you think that GraemeH is wrong?



65

Think Tank,

16/08/2008 17:38:59
GrahameH and Sarah B

The final business case CLEARLY shows a net profit for Transport Edinburgh Ltd in year 2, 2012. This is not based on some crazy "doubling" of public transport patronage, but about a 10% rise. Quantifiable with other tram networks across the UK.

You are spouting absolute b0llocks. And the worst thing is that you absolutely know it.

66

Daddykoolest,

Edinburgh 16/08/2008 20:46:26
Once again the Scotsman should check its facts, they published the story stating the diversions were starting on 18th August (Monday), I've just fought my way through the chaos that is Haymarket – today 16th August.

I checked the Lothian Buses – they got it right.

Poor very poor.
67

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 16/08/2008 22:42:16
Think Tank (72) - It does show a profit in 2012 but, if you had read the R&R report attached to the document, you would see that this assumes both that the economy would not take a downturn and that the Waterfront/Granton would have seen massive development by then.

If these things do not turn out to be the case, the anticipated losses to TEL Revenue are huge.

I truly resent your suggestion that I knowlingly put forward information which is incorrect and, before you dismiss me so rudely again, please take the time to read the R&R Report so that you can explain to me how I am wrong.
68

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 08:04:46
Think Tank. Yet again you fail to grasp what I am saying. The TRAMLINE loses money until 2017. The so-called profits are all made by the buses.

Oh, and it is 2012, not 2011 that profits come through again. Although given the growth required is counter to recent Lothian Buses experience and costs as I state are almost certainly understated it is a significant probability that the break even date will be much later and will probably never happen for the TRAMLINE.

69

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 08:10:26
Correction to #75- Sorry I misread the year you stated profits start per the "Business Plan". However my other comments are valid.

Think Tank, my opposition to this project is not based on some "emotional" view against trams, but based on research and coming to conclusions.

I would encourage anyone with an interest in the tram to actually take a look at the business plan, the huge risks associated with it, the track record and behaviours of the people charged with implementing it and then form a conclusion, as I did, as to whether this is what we should be doing.
70

Regular visitor,

In Edinburgh from Manchester 22/08/2008 23:43:19
Manchester Trans are unreliable crowded and if one breaks down somewhere, the lot comes to a halt for sometimes hours, traffic is delayed, emergency vehicles cannot get through, with nonsensical inept announcements over the tannoy. I hope yours are better organised
71

WL,

livingston 25/08/2008 20:04:59
Whatever they want to do around Haymarket Station, DO NOT REMOVE THE HEARTS WAR MEMORIAL. That would be a criminal offence!

 

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