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Brown attacks Pakistan over UK terror threat

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Chief Constable Peter Fahy on the terror raids
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Published Date: 10 April 2009
GORDON Brown last night said Pakistan had to do more to tackle terrorism after it emerged that 11 of the 12 suspects seized in raids by police were on student visas from that country.
The Prime Minister vowed to put pressure on Pakistan's president, Asif Ali Zardari, as details of the alleged plotters emerged.

And there were calls for Mr Brown to tighten up the UK's student visa regime.

Meanwhile, Bob Quick, the man whose careless carrying of a document detailing the planned raids forced the anti-terror operation to be rushed forward by a day, resigned from his post as Britain's top counter-terrorist officer.

Speaking in Carlisle, the Prime Minister linked the plot to Pakistan, saying: "We are dealing with a very big terrorist plot. We have been following it for some time. There were a number of people who are suspected of it, who have been arrested. That police operation was successful.

"We know that there are links between terrorists in Britain and terrorists in Pakistan. That is an important issue for us to follow through and that's why I will be talking to President Zardari about what Pakistan can do to help us in the future.

"One of the lessons we have learned from the past few years is that Pakistan has to do more to root out terrorist elements in its country as well."

Mr Brown defended the anti-terror operation but suggested more work had to be done to stop lawless areas of Pakistan acting as safe havens for extremists to plot attacks worldwide.

Mr Quick's security lapse forced officers to strike on Wednesday – a day earlier than planned.

He resigned yesterday after he was photographed in Downing Street carrying a memo marked "secret" with details of the forthcoming operation.

He was replaced by John Yates, who headed the controversial "cash for honours" inquiry, which stained the final months of Tony Blair's premiership.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson and Home Secretary Jacqui Smith had agreed that Mr Quick's position was untenable. David Blunkett, a former home secretary, questioned whether photographers in Downing Street should be subject to tighter controls.

Police defended the raids, as unsubstantiated reports said that the plot, possibly involving a bomb, had been planned for Easter.

Britain's biggest counter-terrorism operation since the Glasgow airport bombing came as hundreds of officers swooped on addresses in Manchester, Liverpool – including John Moores University – and Lancashire.

Among those held were two security guards working at a branch of Homebase in Clitheroe, a student outside the university library and four men at addresses in the Cheetham Hill area of Manchester.

The men had been under surveillance by MI5 and police for weeks but sources said the plot was at an advanced stage.

The targets were believed to have included a nightclub in Manchester favoured by footballers, Manchester United's Old Trafford ground and the Trafford Centre shopping complex.

Students at John Moores University in Liverpool were warned about the terror raid over the public address system.

Meanwhile, the revelation that most of the suspects were not "home grown" extremists led to a call for ministers to rethink the visa regime.

Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said the government must "urgently step up" background checks on students coming to Britain from countries linked to terror.

He said: "The government admits that student visas are a major loophole in our border controls. Given these latest revelations, we need to urgently step up monitoring of applications from parts of the world where we face terror issues."

Pakistani-born students routinely have their visas rolled over into indefinite leave to remain, which leads to eventual citizenship status. Figures from 2006 showed 98 per cent of applications for extension of leave to remain in Britain were granted.

A total of 42,292 student visas were issued to Pakistanis between April 2004 and April 2008. In 2007-8, the last financial year for which figures are available, 9,544 Pakistani nationals were given student visas.

Sir Andrew Green, from the campaign group Migrationwatch , said the government had turned a blind eye to the risks associated with student visas.

He said: "Applicants from countries of concern like Pakistan and North Africa should be given a full interview by a UK-based visa officer and only admitted if they can demonstrate that they are genuine."

However, universities were warned by a Muslim leader not to overreact by penalising all students.

Humza Yousaf, of the Scottish Islamic Foundation, said a blanket crackdown on students from Pakistan would damage Scottish universities' funding and performance, and the country's proud tradition.

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1

,

10/04/2009 00:31:55
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2

Andrew Horton,

10/04/2009 00:35:58
And shouldn't we and others who are pushing the terrorists into Pakistan as we fight an unwinnable war in Afghanistan and radicalise a generation (the same generation coming over on student visas) in the region take some responsibility? Oh that's right, Brown like Blair before him doesn't accept blame. He's too busy kidding himself that he's saving the world.
3

,

10/04/2009 00:36:08
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4

Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 10/04/2009 00:43:52
We seem to let all sorts of people into this country without adequate checks. How much money could be saved not letting them in to the country in the first place instead of spending millions tracking them with MI5?
5

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 00:51:25
‘‘GORDON Brown last night said Pakistan had to do more to tackle terrorism after it emerged that 11 of the 12 suspects seized in raids by police were on student visas from that country.’’

How about Brown and company doing more to tackle terrorism - such as refusing to give student visas to Pakistanis.
6

,

10/04/2009 01:06:12
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7

,

10/04/2009 01:25:29
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8

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 10/04/2009 02:45:21
.. without adequate checks

Passing familiar with UKstan, I entered nae probs as a Russian oligarch on a mission to buy a footba' club and some property in London. Ah the RBS, I knew them well.
9

Lausanne Jellies,

10/04/2009 03:09:26
Education not discrimination
10

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 10/04/2009 03:50:51
Mutually Assured Distraction
11

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 04:08:17
Perhaps on second thoughts screen
12

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 04:09:58
look at the first letters on posts #12, #13, #14 spooky
13

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 04:14:10
I missed off my question marks, could it be I'm a little tired Zzz?
14

steve 1511,

aberdeen 10/04/2009 06:25:54
the gibbering eejit broons government REFUSES to give the visa applicants information to the pakistan government,so if pakistan is denied the knowledge of who want to come to britian how can they check,more smoke from the unelected eejit.


WE ARE DOOMED WITH BROON,DOOMED
15

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 07:27:44
Simple logic seems to be to check student visa applications with the university or college that the student is attending BEFORE granting the application and AFTER the student arrives in the UK.
Two of the arrested people were employed as doormen at a DIY store, of course this was maybe just a part time job. But do student visa allow the holder to take up employment in the UK ?
16

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh. 10/04/2009 07:47:23
And what checks are UK Immigration authorities carrying out at the point of entry to the U.K.?
17

,

10/04/2009 07:51:54
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18

Nelson51,

Newcastle 10/04/2009 08:04:56
What about foreign nationals who have dual passports ?.Remove their British passports,
if they misdemean, then they can be deported.
19

TWC,

10/04/2009 08:06:03
What do our emigration do; they don't stop Immigrants coming in; they don't send them home; they can't round them up and they don't shut down the businesses that employ them, a waste of space.

Why are we accepting so many students?

This is Brown just deflecting us from the Economic debacle he is failing to fix.
20

worker,

LIVINGSTON 10/04/2009 08:08:40
Time to finally pull up the Drawbridge once and for all?
21

Kenny A,

10/04/2009 08:10:48
I can hardly get into the UK, and am Scottish, looks like no problem for a couple of battallions of the Taliban to waltz into the country no doubt loaded to the ear balls with Semtex, carrying second hand RPGs, dressed in the most of fashionable suicide vests, and be greated with open paws by the head honcho of anti terrosim.

I believe he sent 20 odd armed officers into a Conservative office a few years ago. Arrested a fisherman for fishing, though that may be a rumor, and allowed tens of billions of crack pot bearded nutters into the UK. Who just demand of their local councils their toilets are no pointed in the direction of Mecca before blowing something or other up.

On a more serious note I have traveled through a fair few lands of the prophet and generaly people are decent, it looks like UK Passport control has a policy of only letting the bad ones in. No doubt all to do with political correctnes.
22

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 08:24:38
#1 Jeremiah

You'll probably not be surprised to know that, in another example of Labour's mad Stalinist obsession with targets and political correctness, Entry Clearance Officers in British High Commissions have also been set one. Not, however, a target for identifying and PREVENTING the dodgy 'marriage' applicants, the 'students' who are only coming to work (or in this case, it would appear, to blow us up) or the 'tourists' with no intention of going home. No, Labour has set them targets for GRANTING visas, no matter how dodgy their stories appear. All so we can't be seen to discriminate against non-white people or upset the voters in their ever-increasingly born-abroad constituencies. Ask your MP.
23

Nelson51,

Newcastle 10/04/2009 08:32:10
We let the Taliban march in by the tank load yet we refused Zimbabwean and South African farmers and left them to be slaughtered by Robert Mugabe's henchmen. We were quick enough to topple Saddam Hussein but not Mugabe, is there no oil in South Africa ?.
24

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 08:33:22
(#23) – (TWC) – Why don’t you ask los angeles the ex educator why we accept so many students?
25

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 08:40:44
(#24) – (worker) – If by the drawbridge you mean immigration, in your opinion, how do you make up for the loss in tax contributions which helps to go towards paying pensions?
26

donnelly,

10/04/2009 08:44:22
#22 Nelson ....to give you insight into the dual passport scenario ... if you are from a British Colony and have rights to abode in UK then you may, if you stay here for proportioned time period apply for a British UK Passport ...and you can retian your Colony one....
...now if you are a foreign national ...and live here for alloted period ..you can apply for British Citiznship and as such ...receive a British Passport ..NOW here is answer to your comment possibly .. once you receive your Brit Pass the Brits DO NOT have the authority to remove or take away your original foreign passport ..it has to be returned to you and it is at your responsibiltiy to return it to your previous country embassy advising of the circumstances.
Alternatively you can continue to retain till it runs out naturally ...but if you then attempt to renew it and do not advise then embassy of the Brit one..then you are breaking the law ...NOT in British law but technically against your original home country by not advising them of this double passport sceanrio.

and #28 Ewen ...think in short the answer is erm ?? ...
MONEY !!!
27

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 08:48:28
#29 Ewan

Not sure how many students and illegal entrants and workers are actually paying tax (but are still making use of the services) but until recently it was the case that Labour was using immigrants to take the jobs the rump of indigenous scroungers was being allowed to avoid.
28

donnelly,

10/04/2009 08:51:08
Interestint snippet of news I heard.. on our routing out of terrorists in UK

Last year 1200 People were arrested under the Terrorism Act in UK ...out of that only 18% were actually charged ?

...but it fails to say actually what these 18% were cahrged for only "criminal acts"?? ...may not necessarily be for harbouring atomic weapons under their beds ...but could in reality ..could be no road tax ...not having a TV license when their housed were raided ..their dogs fouling the pavement ?..list is endless

Be intersting to see where this present one leads to ..specially at a time when old Plod are in the spotlight for indiscriminate whacking of citizens and ol Flash's brigade are not flavour of the month with the populace ?
29

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 10/04/2009 08:56:58
Loved the comment about "Adequate Checks"
How about the two Doctors who tried to blow up a nightclub and when that didn't work, attacked Glasgow Airport.
What checks would you apply to flush out people like that who suddenly develop a grievance or the Hidden Agendas of the 'sleepers' when even the 'Lie Detector' can be fooled?
Consider the case of Dr Haneef who is related to the aforementioned doctors and was ejected from Oz on rather shaky evidence. If they let him back in, is going going to be a loyal citizen? Personally I would question that.
There is a new movie out with Don Cheadle called 'Traitor' It's worth a view for several reasons, including showing the existence of 'sleepers'and how they blend-in, just waiting for the word to 'go'.
#4
Buying your newspaper from Mr IMran Kahn's all night store might be the least of the problems you could encounter.
30

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:03:00
#34 Stewart

You're never going to stop all the sleepers getting in. The doctors who tried to bomb Glasgow airport were genuine. How could an ECO detect that when granting a visa? But they can certainly stop granting visas to the 'students' coming to attend the many dodgy 'language colleges' across the country, one of which was found to have ONE book on its library's shelves.
31

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 09:10:09
(#32) – (Draco Was a Wimp) – Who said I was talking about income tax in regards to students?

Was I not talking tax in regards to the general immigrant workforce?

As our service are generally documented how many illegal entrants and workers are seen to be using them a year?

Did you not see above that one of the main reasons for the number of students is money?

Why is that?
32

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:14:06
#8 Every Pakistani Blockem ? Will that not make the problem worse ? Surely if we are going to help the Pakistani Government to tackle the terrorist problem we have to be supportive of those Pakistanis who oppose extremism. I don't think we can do that by tarring them all with the same brush. Let's remember whilst having this necessary debate that extremists form a minority of Pakistanis and muslims in general.
33

Scimitar1,

10/04/2009 09:15:01
There is nothing new here, one of the Bali bombers studied at Dundee University, and at least one of the Glasgow airport bombers were on student visa's. Typical new labour spin blame other governments when it was them that opened up the visa system for abuse.

The recent CIA report has concluded that the UK offers the greatest terrorist threat to the US through it's islamist (mainly Pakistani) threat,hence the attempted visa waiver withdrawal for Pakistani originated residents. This in itself is a shocking indictment of new labour's abandonment of our borders, they truely do have blood in their hands.

34

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 09:15:03
(#31) – (donnelly) – Good answer, but why is it the case?
35

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:17:12
I heard a Pakistani spokesman on the radio earlier saying that the UK needed to do more to prevent extremists getting into the country in the first place. Now I think there could potentially be problems with that if we assume that all Pakistanis are extremists, it's a difficult situation that needs to be handled (literally) with intelligence. I don't have any confidence that the Labour Government are up to the task.
36

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 09:17:32
~35 Draco: An independent Scotland would be far less likely to be a terrorist target. The target here is British imperialism, which still exists and under the likes of Brown and his jingoism is likely to get worse. Scotland on its own would take a very different diplomatic role (conciliatory), and quite different from the Ming Campbell arrogant 'sophistication', British stiff upper lip and all that bull.

Is the likes of Norway a target? They are one of our role models, not Britain/Englandshire (same thing). So long as Scotland is tagged on to this bust British 'nation' then Scotland is at risk from the pathetic international posturing and provocation by Britain. And things will get a lot worse if Brown gets back in with a Lab-Lib coalition and Ming as For Sec, if the opportunity for Scottish independence is lost once more. People in Scotland need to wake up. Britain is finished, economically, socially and diplomatically.
37

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:17:41
#36 Ewan

Oh, I agree that, as Rules pointed out above, many colleges and universities, especially the newer ones, are desperate for the money from foreign students and don't really care who attends lectures or not as long as they've got their mits on the fees cheque. With regards tax, do you have any clue how many people are in this country ILLEGALLY? If you do, you're a better man the government which, scandalously, doesn't have a clue. But estimates put it at approx. 1,000,000. That's more than the entire population of Northern Ireland. And if you think these people aren't getting any treatment on the NHS, their kids educated, driving on the roads, getting their bins lifted, all without paying direct taxation, you're living in another world.
38

Hugh Roscombe,

10/04/2009 09:18:15
29 Ewan

I need a wee lie down. I agreed with one of your posts.
39

The Strategist,

10/04/2009 09:19:10
Just like our economic problems Brown has to blame someone else..

40

Observer,,

10/04/2009 09:23:54
41 I agree with you that the UK has made itself a target for terrorism for it's actions in invading Iraq etc. But terrorism is (like the invasion of Iraq) indiscriminate in who it murders so as long as we are part of the international community we have an obligation to co-operate in identifying and arresting terrorists, but again I can only say I have absolutely no confidence in the Labour Government's ability to do that. They use the terrorist ''threat'' as a political tool, and not a political reality.
41

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:23:57
#41 Darien

Dream on. Firstly, Norway doesn't have the same problem because it hasn't allowed itself to be swamped by foreigners. It has a system that gives succour to genuine asylum seekers but hasn't been abused by chancers. And by the way, look at the SNP's 'Fresh Talent' Initiative. Whereas the UK government is now, very belatedly, trying to tighten up on issuing visas to students and workers, Salmond is actively trying to get students to stay on in Scotland. All so he can appear 'inclusive' and add to the 'vibrancy' of our Nation. Or, as in the other ways he does, appeal to the Asian electorate in Govan and Pollockshiels.
42

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 09:25:46
(#38) – (Scimitar1) – When handing out visas what are the people looking out for which would tell them they are talking to a terrorist or one in the making?
43

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:26:03
42 Draco most of them live in London. London is like any other metropolis - you get the same in Paris, New York etc. I don't think the country in general is hoaching with illegal immigrants, so let's get it into perspective.
44

donnelly,

10/04/2009 09:29:00
~39 ..Ewan ....agree with your point ..and admit I thought is strange when I heard it ( from Brit Embassy staff) dont know why it is the case ..again strange, since in effect when they take their Brit Passport then in effect SHOULD renounce their protection status alloted from their previous country ?
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:29:30
46 I think you are straying into dangerous country there Draco. The Asian electorate in Govan and Pollokshields were largely born here and have no more sympathy with extremists than you or I do.
46

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:33:21
#37 Observer

Of course you're right. No-one is saying that all Pakistanis are terrorists. No-one is saying that other than a very small minority of British/Scottish citizens of Pakistani heritage support the fundamentalists. But Pakistan is a very scary place just now. Its government is losing it. I saw a Channel 4 documentary the other night and the level of support for the Taliban amongst the urban poor in Pakistan is, as I say, scary. They've allowed the introduction of Sharia Law in a whole province up by the Afghan border. These people HATE the West and all it stands for. And before you say it, maybe they have some reason. But they don't have reason to hate me and, I suspect, you. But it could be me or you next to a suicide bomber in the St Enoch Centre. Like it could have been the Trafford Centre by all accounts. We need to wake up here.
47

Phil1,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:34:22
Hold on who let the Pakistani Students into UK without checking if they were on the security services list?

Gordon Brown was warned that he should make it compulsory for Higher Education Institutions to run prospective students names through the national database before giving them visa clearance to attend a course and he DID NOT take the advice.

I'll bet the Government now passes that law - now the horse has gone Gordon will be quick to bolt the door and claim it will never happen again.

So Gordon you are more to blame than Pakistan.
48

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:35:25
51 Oh I agree with you that there is a problem. But I think we need to deal with it by supporting those within Pakistan who oppose the fundamentalists. If we react against all Pakistan and all Islam we will just make it worse.
49

Columba doing the Rumba,

10/04/2009 09:37:02
Why am I reminded of the alleged Algerian plot to blow up Jenners here?

Might it be that was another load of fabricated codswallop to instill fear into the populace of Edinburgh and the country at large in the run up to the invasion of Iraq.

As such, might this not be to condition the country into accepting an invasion of Pakistan in the future?

Certainly seems like that.
50

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:40:10
#50 Observer

I wasn't straying into any dangerous territory re the residents of Govan or Pollockshields. The SNP patronises the Asian community by pretending there is no problem. Well, however small, there is a problem in the Moslem Asian community. We would be very naive to believe otherwise. Putting our fingers in our ears and goin 'Lah lah lah' isn't going to make it go away.
51

Phil1,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:40:32
41 Darien,Panama 10/04/2009 09:17:32
There is always a numpty from the nasty party to say stupid things and bury their head in the sand.

So its OK for terrorists to murder and maim people? Its OK for women to be murdered for not wearing a nijab?
Its OK for men to rule and tell women what to do?
Its OK to educate boys but not girls?

I think that Saddam Hussein and Taliban Lovers should go to Afghanistan of North West Pakistan and live there for a few weeks to see what life is really like.
52

Boab,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:42:10
Gordo should only be making demands on Pakistan after a trial and a public enquiry. Having said that, there was no public enquiry after the London bombings, even though six different countries had warned the Home Office an attack was going to take place. He's just playing the race card, and using the war on terror to distract us rom the environment and the economy (as Labour and the Republicans have been doing for the last 8 years, sadly).

As for 'Al Qaeda cell', any idiot who has been to a training camp in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border can form such a thing. Al Qaeda has no military-style command structure. The CIA and MI6 helped train, organise and arm around 10,000 Islamic militants in the area over the 1980s, according to Mike Davis' book 'Buda's Wagon'. They're a bit hard to keep track of now.

You could put a ban on Pakistani students, but it seems somewhat unfair after only 11 of them were allegedly planning to wipe us out. Foreign students are part of the UK economy and help to spread our freedom-loving, capitalist values.

So, let's wait until after that trial and we can make up our minds then, hmm?
53

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 09:44:36
(#42) – (Draco Was a Wimp) – How much money would illegal immigrants spend or have spent on them while living here?

What does that mean for the country 1,000,000 times over?

What is a guaranteed way to totally stop illegal immigration?

Now that you have said that I am living in another world can I then expect you to front up with your evidence to prove what you are saying?
54

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:45:03
55 I think you are completely wrong with that one, and as a resident of the South side area you have identified I claim to know what I am talking about. The SNP I think are NOT patronising the Asian community - that would be to treat them the way they are in England and be left to live in social apartheid on the faux grounds of multiculturalism. The SNP and also GCC do what they can to ensure that the Asian community is completely assimilated into mainstream civic and political life. I think that is the best way to counter the alienation which can lead to attraction to fundamentalism.
55

Boab,

10/04/2009 09:46:42
#56 Phil: 'I think that Saddam Hussein and Taliban Lovers should go to Afghanistan of North West Pakistan and live there for a few weeks to see what life is really like.'

Right eoungh, backing Hussein and the Taliban was a big mistake. The things we do for cheap oil!
56

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:46:44
#53 Observer

The problem is, being seen to support the likes of Imran Khan, the educated elite who oppose the mediaeval attitudes of the fundamentalists, is counter-productive. They're then just seen as Western stooges. The problem is intractable.
57

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 09:52:43
61 the West is a part of the problem, we have helped cause it, because we all know that the situation in the middle east is driven by oil and the Western governments are raging hypocrites in what they say. I don't think governments are going to resolve this it's up to good people on both ''sides'' to help do that.
58

Bejjy,

Europe 10/04/2009 09:54:38
Its simple, stop issuing Pakistani's with student visa's to allow them to go to the UK to "study". Let them go elsewhere and I suggest the USA might be just the place for them to gain an "education"
59

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:56:26
#58 Ewan

Do you have any idea what life is like for an illegal immigrant here? More often as not they're expoited, and more often than not by people of their own ethic background. They work long and hard to send as much money OUT OF THE COUNTRY as they can. They don't spend in the community, they don't pay any direct taxation. They do, where necessary, use the NHS and other services. There is no joined up government to check that the user of the services should be here. And by its very definition, if we don't know how many hundreds of thousands should not be in the country we can't know how much they cost the country. I do see though, that the government is short of £200,000,000 in the education/training budget and will have to curtail further eduaction access and new apprenticeships this year. Meanwhile, the cost of providing lawyers for 'asylum seekers', immigration detention centres, interpreters etc etc now runs to over a BILLION a year. What better use for that money do you think? Especially these days.
60

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 10:01:16
Did you know that most Muslims would consider themselves as fundamentalist Muslims as fundamentalist means being devout?

If it is right that these Islamic terrorists are working on a twisted interpretation of that faith could it not be the case that all none Islamic countries could be on their agenda with some further down the list than others?
61

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 10:03:10
#62 Observer

As so often, you're well-meaning but naive. Our cultures are too far appart. Yes, the West (or rather our governments in our name) have played their part for the worse. But you've got to accept, on a one to one basis we can't, as individuals, reason with the MILLIONS of people across the world who believe in a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. How can you, as a woman, expect to reason with an apparently respectable Moslem man who GENUINELY BELIEVES that his own daughter should not be educated or walk in public unaccompanied. It's not just the politics of oil. THEY genuinely believe OUR morality to be corrupt.
62

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 10:08:08
65 Being devout does not mean seeing yourself as opposed to other religions or non Islamic countries. Historically Islam has always had respect for other ''people of the book'' devout muslims revere the Torah and the New Testement as being the revealed word of God as they are part of the Abrhamic traditon from which all three religions of the book sprang.

The twisted interpretation of Islam which is described as fundamentalism arose at the same time as Zionism. It is essentially a politically reactionary phenomenon. Without understanding that, I don't see how the West can effectively counter the thinking behind it.
63

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 10:14:28
66 I am not at all naive, for example I know fine well that I could never live in a muslim country as I could not stand the second class status that women have. But it is up to women in these countries to deal with that, there is nothing that I can do about it. Women in this country used to have second class status, we only got the vote at the begining of the C20th that is not so long ago when you think about it.
64

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 10:20:12
#68 Observer

You defeat your own argument. How can 'good people' 'resolve' the situation if we leave them to resolve their own problems. If we can't interact on an individual level as human beings, how else can we solve the problem. How can we discuss if one party just isn't prepared to listen? For you, as a woman, to go to the North West Province of Pakistan, to 'discuss' the problems between our cultures, would be like a Jew trying to hold a discussion at a Brownshirt bierkeller rally in the 30s.
65

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 10/04/2009 10:20:41
Deary Deary me! Here we have thousands of people all getting ready for their Easter holidays so what a good time to get out a bit of the old we have just foiled another terrorist threat to scare the easily conned.

There was no terrorists at 911 or 7/7, people with half a brain who have looked at the evidence know it, the Muslim/Asian people who are being blamed know and our government knows it because it was them and the US government that did it.

If this is for real then it is just the reaction that these governments were hoping for, then again who is behind these new "terrorists" and encouraging them. Funny how they were not so easy to catch with 911 and 7/7. www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com for video links to the real truth.
66

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 10:25:22
69 Draco I know people who regularly travel between Glasgow and the North West tribal territories. That is quite common, and they appear to be able to adopt a duality fitting into whatever place they happen to be. A man who will adopt the macho attitude of the tribal territory towards women and guns will behave completely differently when at home in Glasgow, he doesn't patronise the Western woman who assumes that she is equal, and he desn't tote a gun either. Nobody said this would be an easy thing to deal with, but I don't agree with the them and us thinking.
67

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 10:29:18
Observer at 37,

Try and pay attention Observer. I didn’t say ‘‘Every Pakistani’’. I referred to those Pakistanis entering the UK on a student visa (‘‘11 of the 12 suspects seized in raids by police were on student visas from that country.’’) Unless of course you are under the illusion that every Pakistani enters the UK on a student visa.

{you}
68

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 10:29:30
(#64) – (Draco Was a Wimp) – Though I am not disputing the way many, but maybe not all, illegal immigrants are treated would it not be unbelievable to assume money wasn’t being spent by many in the local community on necessities by either the immigrants themselves or those who are exploiting them?

Is it not the case that VAT is likely to be a factor in their up keep some where down the line?

Is it not true that when you use NHS services you share your details?

Is it not also true if you don’t give detail the NHS will generally alert the authorities?

Might this be the same with other services too?

Do you consider the taxation and benefits from the majority of immigrants to be higher than the disadvantages from those who try to exploit the system?

Isn’t education seen as a basic human right which once in place hard to justify its removal?
69

TWC,

10/04/2009 10:30:15
28 Ewan Randall
Ewan I'm asking everyone. LA do you know or is Ewan just stirring like a Nu Labour politician.
70

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 10:34:18
72 According to your thinking we would then have barred entry to the Irish as the IRA bombings in England were carried out by ethnically Irish people in the seventies and eighties. We didn't, and we are now in the middle of a peace process. I am fully in agreement that the UK Govt has been lax and has not placed sufficient controls upon entry into this country. But I remain totally opposed to the idea that you can profile every Pakistani student as a potential terrorist.
71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 10:41:19
#73 Ewan

I clearly can't convince you but believe this or not as you will. There are many, many tens of thousands of people here working, primarily in the catering/restaurant sector. They come here as visitors or clandestinely to work in the restaurant sector. Their visitor visas are paid for by employers. They stay illegally and enter a world of endentured servitude to pay back their employers. They do not go to the pub or another restaurant or the cinema or take day trips to Scarborough or buy nice things in John Lewis or Top Man. If lucky, if they're Moslem, which most are, they get to the mosque but by and large they work, sleep and are fed by their employers. What money the manage to save GOES ABROAD, usually using Western Union. If they encounter officialdom, eg a doctor or even get sent to prison, this government is so useless that there is little chance they will be asked to prove their status in the UK.
72

Silence of the Yams,

10/04/2009 10:47:39
Why are we giving student visa's to Pakistani's when it's thee hotbed of Islamist terror? This country has been a joke too long and the BNP is the only solution, sadly.
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 10:50:04
#71 Observer

Just as it didn't take a genius to work out that an economic 'miracle' based on credit and ever-rising house prices was going to go belly-up big time, it doesn't take a genius to see how the World is heading for a very major conflict, if not a World War, between Islam and the Secular West and its allies. It'll probabably start between the new nuclear-armed Fundamentalist Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the similarly nuclear-armed India. We'll all get dragged in and the millions of Muslims in the UK and across continental Europe, will have the unenviable choice to make between their religion and the countries they were born in. I hope I'm wrong and feel free to call me melodramatic but I saw Brown for the economic moron he is.
74

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 10:53:13
(#74) – (TWC) – Though I think LA should know the answer who knows if he really does?

I’ll give out a clue LA, has it to do with a figure 16%?
75

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:02:40
Observer at 75 .....

No No Observer, you’re still off track. How many Irish bombers came over on student visas? - not many, if any. I think we have to treat every Pakistani ‘‘student’’ as a potential terrorist - unfortunately, sooner or later, another of these terrorists attacks will be successful and lead to mayhem. We know that the terrorists enter on student visas - sensible precaution is to block that way of entry - refuse student visas to Pakistanis.
76

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:05:25
78 We may well be heading for a world war, it is a popular answer to economic depression. But it won't be for religious reasons. Religion is just window dressing. Just as the Crusades were about trade routes, the next one will be about oil routes. Let's just hope it doesn't go nuclear, we will all be the same when we're deid.
77

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 11:12:57
#81 Observer

You're problem in addressing this issue is to so glibly dismiss the importance oif religion. Religion may be just window dressing to you just as it as has little relevance to my day to day life. You don't seem to grasp that for HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of Muslims across the globe, religion is central to everything they do. They live their lives according to the direction of the Quran in a way we can't comprehend. As a religion its supra-national in a way we can't comprehend. Any perceived insult to one, or to the Prophet or to the Quran is an insult not to Pakistanis, Algerians, Indonesians etc etc but to Muslims. For an intelligent person, you just don't seem to get it. Or maybe you're just too secular, like me, to understand it.
78

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:13:00
80 From memory I think most of the IRA bombers (even the innocent ones we locked up for no reason) were employed in the building trade. Should we have barred entry to Irish builders ? The Glasgow Airport bombers were doctors, should we bar entry to all Arabic doctors ? It's a blunt tool that could end up doing more harm than good. I think we need to co-operate with the Pakistani authorities and the wider Pakistani community. I don't think you can do that by branding them all as extremists.
79

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:19:11
82 I do understand it Draco, but I think I understand it better than you. We are talking about Arab countries here. Arab rhetoric is different. When they talk about pushing Israel into the sea that is not actually literal. These are essentially cultural differences, the average Arab is as pragmatic as you and me. Some of them have become extremists, and dangerous ones, but don't go thinking that they are all extremists, that is a mistake.
80

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 11:28:27
#84 Observer

Er, the last I noticed, Pakistanis and Afghans aren't ethnically or culturally Arab. We, of all countries, should know that Afghans and the Pushtun peoples of Pakistan aren't really ones to sit around and negotiate. Cut your throat for an insult, aye, negotiate no.
81

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:40:38
85 Yes that part of the world has always been very cut throat and tribal, run by warlords more than governments. and their religion (Islam, which is Arabic in origin) has I believe got hee haw to do with it. It's been the same since the days of Alexander the Great, who pre-dated the Prophet Muhammed. So I get back to my point that this is not essentially religious in nature.
82

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 11:46:14
To clarify what I mean Draco, you have the rhetoric of Islam which is Arabic in origin, and you have the tribal behaviour in the tribal territories. The two aren't necessarily linked. It's all a lot more complicated than that. Plus add in that the country that Al Quida is most angry at - Saudi Arabia - is the very heart of Islam itself, and a lot of pre-conceptions people have about this ''war'' between Islam and the West based on religious lines are revealed as inaccurate. It's political, it always has been.
83

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 11:53:50
#87 Observer

As always, you're measured, knowledgeable and interesting. But all I know is, for whatever reason, religion or politics, a lot of people over there don't like us over here, even though they don't really know us, and want to come here and blow us up in shopping centres, night clubs, airports and on Tube trains. Understanding why won't really stop them. Have a nice Easter weekend.
84

Jaime,

Here and There 10/04/2009 12:07:30
I have read every single comment here and would earnestly suggest that everyone here should read THE ISLAMIST by Ed Husein if they haven't already done so. Then, and only then, you might understand the difference between the terms, MUSLIM, ISLAM, ISLAMIC, and ISLAMIST. And then, and only then, despite my own view that not all MUSLIMS are ISLAMISTS (though many of them clearly are, and we in the West can't tell the difference), might the commentators here learn to understand why Ed Husein warns us to FEAR ALLAH.
85

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 12:11:02
(#76) – (Draco is a wimp) – You say you clearly can’t convince me of what you say but is that strictly true?

Did I not say that you could convince me when you can provide me with your proof?

Are you saying that most of that 1,000,000 you have already talked about are Muslim?

Are you saying that most of the tens of thousands of people working primarily in the catering/restaurant sector are illegal immigrants?

What percentage of those who are immigrants who work in the catering/restaurants sector are illegal immigrants?

Is it not understandable for restaurant workers to eat at their employer’s restaurant if offered to save the employee money?

Is it not also understandable for those who are really Muslim to not frequent pubs?

Am I a Muslim or an illegal immigrant or even a bad person if I haven’t been frequenting pubs or cinemas going on day trips to Scarborough of buying my clothes from John Lewis or Top Man?
86

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 12:25:54
2Draco Was a Wimp, Edinburgh 10/04/2009 11:12:57
#81 Observer

You're problem in addressing this issue is to so glibly dismiss the importance oif religion. Religion may be just window dressing to you just as it as has little relevance to my day to day life. You don't seem to grasp that for HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of Muslims across the globe, religion is central to everything they do. They live their lives according to the direction of the Quran in a way we can't comprehend. As a religion its supra-national in a way we can't comprehend. Any perceived insult to one, or to the Prophet or to the Quran is an insult not to Pakistanis, Algerians, Indonesians etc etc but to Muslims. For an intelligent person, you just don't seem to get it. Or maybe you're just too secular, like me, to understand it.

===========================

Observer,

I am afraid on this issue I agree with Draco. Sometimes it is very hard for decent, honest people like yourself to see the deceit and malicious intent of others.

My only advise would be to read Islamic websites and click a few more links deep. The Peace and Love we all hear about Islam is only for the house of Islam.

We are Infidels and have no value nor rights. They adhere to our laws only as a temporary measure until the House of War can be turned to the House of Islam.

This is a well thought out LONG term strategy. Smiling in your face, while awaiting the power balance to shift to allow the world to be saved via introduction of Sharia Law.

Jihad is the Islamic obligation for all to bring the world to Islam.

This does not mean all Muslims are bad, just simply that there are Islamic people out their wanting to destroy us. Millions of them.

UK is easy target, UK is easy Access. UK will wake one morning covered in Blood from innocent many lives lost and the counter reaction from a stressed and scared population will be Enoch Powell.

It is better to reduce the risk to the UK population while we work on peaceful
87

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 12:26:32
88 A lot of people over ''there'' think that we don't like them too. It's mass stupidity. All we can do is try and avoid it on an individual level, and support those from any country who want peace. Have a nice weekend yourself, adios.
88

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 12:29:20
Ewan,

Yeah, like anyone is going to convince you or move you from your position. You twist anything to suit your argument. I clearly said that no-one, least of all the government, knows how many illegal immigrabts are in the country. So how you discuss percentages of what you don't know beats me. Where did I say that most of the ESTIMATED million are Muslim? Where did I say that most of the workers in the catering sector are illegal, although I know, from direct experience, that a shockingly significant percentage are. Of course its understandable for employees to eat in the restaurant they work in, it saves them noney to send home. It was YOUR argument that they contribute to the economy by spending indirectly, not mine. You're argument about Muslims drinking in pubs is puerile. As is your attempt to link my use of everyday ways of spending money in the wider economy to being a good person or a Muslim. I would hope you are being deliberately obtuse rather than just stupid if you can't see that.
89

Maximin,

10/04/2009 12:32:32
If any of these Pakistani citizens are found guilty then they must be transfered back to their own country when they have served their punishment to our society.

Whilst they are serving that sentence any family members who currently enjoy residing in our country must be transfered back to their own country.

Any shops and private dwelling places that these family members own,indeed all of their assets in the UK, must be sold with all proceeds given to our Government to help fight would be terrorists of the future.
90

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 12:32:33
91 I understand exactly what you and Draco are saying Alasdair, and as I respect both of you as posters I do not dismiss your views. I just can't reconcile this internet concept of Islam with the individuals I know. I have no doubt there are people who will use Islam as a tool to bring evil, the same can be said about people who used so-called Christian concepts to bring evil, and look at Stalin he was an atheist and one of the most evil people in the world. I just don't like labelling people, I never have, and I never will.
91

arc of insolvency,

10/04/2009 12:33:06
#41 Dork, Panama you are not right in the head..........seek physchiatric help now.
92

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 12:38:53
88Draco Was a Wimp, Edinburgh 10/04/2009 11:53:50
#87 Observer

As always, you're measured, knowledgeable and interesting. But all I know is, for whatever reason, religion or politics, a lot of people over there don't like us over here, even though they don't really know us, and want to come here and blow us up in shopping centres, night clubs, airports and on Tube trains. Understanding why won't really stop them. Have a nice Easter weekend.

============================

Draco,

You are correct. Many people from Pakistan and in Pakistan want to UK citizens being killed. Islam is the medium used to pass the message. It is a very good facilitator of extremist view points and justifications for unjust actions.

We are dealing with people who will slit there daughters throat for dishonouring the father by her sense of dress, choice of husband or wanting to goto School.

We are dealing with a country who has a vast number of government and security services members who agree with the aims of the Jihad. We are also dealing with madmen Mullah's who have been reading far too much religion.

Think about trauma and its effects on peoples lives and mental stability. Then imagine growing up in the tribal area's of Afghan/Pakistan, dysfunctional Gradads, Dads, Uncles, Madrasses all telling the young kids the same thing.

Kill the west, It is trying to kill you.

We need to pull back and let them see we are not trying to take anything from them, pull our military away from their homes and back to our land.

Unfortunately some good people will not get here but many bad people will also not get hear. I do not accept my child can be at risk, my family nor other UK citizens in order to be fair to a Pakistani's educational aspirations.

Hopefully the Pakistani's and others in the UK will moderate with time and lacking the destructive influence of the fresh jihadists. Tension will decrease and integration will continue.

If not the fan and the shiote are going
93

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 12:51:14
''We need to pull back and let them see we are not trying to take anything from them, pull our military away from their homes and back to our land.''

Correct. We may be horrified by what goes on in other countries but unless they pose a threat to us we have no business invading them, or trying to impose our culture upon them.
94

Hugh Roscombe,

10/04/2009 13:07:15
There are quite a number of "illegal" immigrants here in Spain. They don't register they're here. They illegally use their medical card from their own country and pretend they're tourists. They don't pay taxes and contribute nothing to the economy. They don't insure their cars, pay tax on them or have a valid MOT.

That's the Brits for you.
95

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 13:10:24
100? Happy easter
96

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:14:09
Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations.

The equinox occurs each year on March 20, 21 or 22. Both Neopagans and Christians continue to celebrate religious rituals linked to the equinox. Wiccans and other Neopagans usually hold their celebrations on the day or eve of the equinox. Western Christians celebrate Easter on the Sunday on or after the full moon that follows the nominal date of the Equinox -- MAR-21. The Eastern Orthodox churches follow a different calculation; their Easter celebration is often many weeks after the date selected by the Western churches.
97

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:16:19
Now what did the Minister tell me about Rolling stones from the Tomb. More religious bullshiote.

One of the advantages of making up stories is you can change them over and over and just pretend you have always been telling the same story.


98

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 13:17:30
The message here is quite simple for Scots folk. Leave the British 'nation' = no more terrorism threat. Stay in the British 'nation' then expect more illegal wars waged by Britain and therefore terrorism as a response to that. Though for the most part the threat is to England; Scotland is only a marginal target, but a target all the same because we are tarred with the same brush. With independence, Scotland would shift from being today a marginal target to not being a target at all.
99

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 13:24:49
101 Alasdair mac etc.-wow -thanks for the info! Hardly have the energy to comment on the topic at hand. The world is such a complicated f***up peopled by madmen on all sides. Although I am not a practising Christian, the philosophy as espoused by amongst others,Jesus christ, seem to point a way out of this madness. The problem is that there are not enough of us prepared to follow such philosophies. All we have is the Madness of Bin Laden and the Madness of Bush.

The war in Afghanistan/Pakistan is unwinnable. We need new ways.
Some of my best friends truly are bright compassionate intellgent people who also happen to be Muslims.
100

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:25:16
#103 Darian,

Aye those British Nationalist are never happy if they are not having a war with someone.

It always seems to be the Sons of the Scots, Irish, Welsh and Northern English who are sent of to fight in Wars decided in the South East of England.

They should send their own children.

101

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 13:25:58
102 The interesting thing about religion Alasdair is that only some of them have a devil. Christianity does, so does Islam, and so does Judaism to an extent. It is this presence of the devil that actually makes them dangerous because they can attach the ''evil'' associated with the devil to their opponents. If they had made up religions without a devil then we might not have so many problems.

The Christ sacrifice in the Easter tale is an ancient Celtic motif. Even down to the spear in the side.
102

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 13:30:37
103 darien-you fool yourself if you think Scotland can simply opt out of the real world although I am on the same page when it comes to the disastrous involvment of the UK in the Iraqi war. The world is,always has been, and always will be home to mad dictators oblivious to logic. There will always be a need of nations illing to stand up to them for the side of right.
Walking the dogs-back in half an hour.
103

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:34:26
#107 Geoff,

Please provide some examples where nations stood up for the side of right. It always seems to be self interest of the elite that starts our involvement in conflicts.
104

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 13:36:52
108 Alasdair-the Uk in World War 2.
105

Hugh Roscombe,

10/04/2009 13:47:24
Hi Geoff. Meths says hi.
106

Craig Dulnain,

D&G 10/04/2009 13:49:47
"Two of the arrested people were employed as doormen at a DIY store, of course this was maybe just a part time job. But do student visa allow the holder to take up employment in the UK ?"

Under the law as it stands, foreign nationals with Leave to Enter the UK on student/student nurse visa are permitted to work full-time during holidays, and no more than 20hrs per week during term time.
107

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:52:12
#109, Geoff,

Self interest of the British Empire was very much in effect as our interests throughout the world were being threatened by the aggression of Germany and the ultimate aim of Hitler involved eventually taking out the UK. Once it has secured Europe.

We just upset his timeline by jumping in late but thankfully not too late.

The debate about War and Peace certainly resonates with the current dilemma over the Islamists. They talk peace while planning for War.

When will we learn.
108

zigzag,

Canada 10/04/2009 13:55:33
Scotland's troubles started the day Brown and Blair immigrated to England. If they had stayed in Scotland, the lads would have made sure they stayed in line,
(in prison ). Big Tam would keep them company.
109

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 13:59:14
Geoff,

I do agree with the idea that someone should help out but it needs to be all the nations together acting as one voice against the rogue nations.

I feel the UK/USA are to quick to create wealth in the Arms supply companies. We spend far to much on weaponry and military.

As far as I am aware not a single rogue state or population has the capacity to build the weapons nor to finance.

That is what we should be tracking. The effective restriction of trade in weaponry is the key to stopping terrorism.

How many satellite phones were sold to Pakistan military that are now in the hands of terrorists?

How many rocket launchers were made in Pakistan?
110

,

10/04/2009 14:03:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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111

,

10/04/2009 14:13:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
112

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 14:15:16
All we have is the Madness of Bin Laden and the Madness of Bush. (Goff)

Not quite. President Obama is doing all he can to engage them in dialogue. He's asking them to explain what their core protest is, to talk about it, to see if there's a solution. He knows there are many issues, some straight forward, some complicated. An he knows he will get rebuffed initalliy, a distrust of American offers of handshakes from years of bitter experience.

But he is attempting to face the issues, not to bomb people into submission because he can.

He knows that only creates more insurgents.

He has also instructed staff to stop naming anybody from Messopotamia or Pakistan as potential "terrorists." he insists the language of scaremongering and propaganda is eradicated, post haste.

It's the only way for rational men and women to be heard above the braying.

113

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 14:15:57
115 Ian Brady went to the same school as me. Does that make me a serial killer ? I am sure there has been more than one murder in Paisley - does that make you guilty by association ? I agree with Geoff at 109 WW2 was a righteous fight against the Nazis who demonised an entire people, the Jews. I object to the modern day version demonising all Muslims.

114

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 14:19:38
116 You betray your ignorance of modern warfare. The vast majority of casualties are civilians. The men in uniforms are safer than they are - ask the citizens of Iraq or Gaza.
115

,

10/04/2009 14:38:38
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116

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 14:40:36
118Observer,, Glasgow 10/04/2009 14:15:57
115 Ian Brady went to the same school as me. Does that make me a serial killer ? I am sure there has been more than one murder in Paisley - does that make you guilty by association ? I agree with Geoff at 109 WW2 was a righteous fight against the Nazis who demonised an entire people, the Jews. I object to the modern day version demonising all Muslims.


=========================

Observer,

Have you considered the possibility that your have the actual reverse of your logic happening in the real world.

What if the atheists/Infidels are the current conflicts demonised people and the Islamists are the modern day Nazi. Do not be so sure that peace, love and understanding is the future of the Islamification of Europe. It has not been peace, love and understanding in a single country since the time of Mohammed when they reach a Muslim majority or powerbase. It has been every single time. Blood, death, oppression.

During the 1930's I am sure many people had many friends who were German. Who were decent people and had no intend to goto War. But they did and we know what happened.
117

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 14:47:20
120Jwil, 10/04/2009 14:38:38
It seems from today's newscasts tha the British authorities have just woken up to the fact that this might be a problem (Pakistani students coming into Britain). How can they be so naive when they are fighting a war on terrorism on the Pakistani border?


===============

Jwil,

I am looking forward to Any Questions tonight to hear the BBC squirm about the nationality/religion of the arrested.

"Youths from the same Asian country, although their is no link to any religion or ethnic group"

How will they get around facts. No judgements or racists stereotypes but facts.

They were Pakistani, They were devout Muslims, They believe they are in the House of War, legitimately targeting non muslims, for non Sharia compliant behaviour to bring Islam to the UK and make this the House of Islam.

All of this action is supported by the Religion and a majority of pakistani population who have been taught this is their duty. Submission to the will of Allah via Islam and bring the whole world to the house of Islam.
118

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 10/04/2009 14:51:59
There's not just a wee problem with Pakistani students there is also the torrent of illegal immigrants which he and his incompetent 2-Homes Secretary let through and fail to do anything about. At least there is a chance of controlling the former if anyone had the guts to do anything about it. But what of the illegals? They're not exactly calling in to Customs and Excise to say sorry are they?!

Brown should apologise to Pakistan for his pathetic attempts at border security within the the UK and the political correctness with which he regards anyone coming into this country. Then he should with a will get the illegal immigrants out now and invoke a red line or something so the mealy-mouthed ECHR don't get a chance to pardon everyone and get us to pay them thousands in the process like Qatada and Hamza because their rights have been violated or some such idiocy.
119

Richard Lionheart,

10/04/2009 15:02:18
Note the trend here with Gordon Brown.

Recession: He was “in charge” of the British Economy, but it came out of America

Bank Failures: Gordon Brown set the rules under which banks operate, but it is all Fred Goodwin’s fault.

Imported Terrorists: Moron Brown is” in charge” of immigration policy, but it’s all the Pakistani Government’s fault.

Why is Brown the blameless still in his job? No doubt that is the voters fault.
120

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 10/04/2009 15:10:53
Funny I am just back in from my local Asian shop where Jackie, as we all call him, and his friends do not believe a word that this government puts out with regard to terrorists. They believe that this is another of their scare the population scams and so do I.

Why is this Labour government so reluctant to have independent inquiries into the Iraq war and the London bombings - we all know why! www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
121

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 15:55:45
(#93) – (Draco was a wimp) – You say “Yeah, like anyone is going to convince you or move you from your position”, but have you given me any evidence to try your theory out?

Is there a reason you have yet to tell us why you haven’t presented your evidence?

Do you even have any evidence to back up what you have been saying?

You say “You twist anything to suit your argument”, though yet again how am I supposed to have done this when you are yet to provide any evidence to back up your story?

Did I not ask you the percentage of immigrants in the catering/restaurant you believed were illegal immigrants?

What were you trying to make out in your post #76, was it not an extension of your previous posts?
122

Ewan Randall,

10/04/2009 15:56:10
(#93) – (Draco was a wimp) – Continued:

Do you not think that your post at #76 is a little vague in it’s distinction between tens of thousands of workers in the catering/restaurant sector and the number who might be illegal immigrants with it giving the distinct impression you were talking about most of them?

If as you say you can’t use percentages on numbers you don’t really know, how can you say “Where did I say that most of the workers in the catering sector are illegal, although I know, from direct experience, that a shockingly significant percentage are”, are you not contradicting yourself?

Have you come into contact with these tens of thousands you were talking about?

Didn’t you know that obtuse and stupid mean the same?
123

Number 6,

Germany 10/04/2009 15:59:26
If our own immigration services were not so shambolic, mainly due to lack of funding and manpower, then maybe so many terrorists would not be flooding in to the country.

I'm surprised they are not turning up with their weapons over their backs.

This from an article in the "DAILY MASH

Meanwhile a loophole which allows thousands of angry, bearded Pakistanis to enter Britain without background checks was doing its job very nicely indeed, the immigration minister told sources last night.

A source close to Phil Woolas said: "We let in just enough of them to keep you nice and scared, wait until they take a photograph of something and then arrest them at gunpoint."

Prime minister Gordon Brown last night claimed personal responsibility for both the surveillance operation and the arrests while a source stood behind him shaking his head and waving his hands.

124

Bemused and above it all,

10/04/2009 16:02:42
H&K MP5's are remarkabley effective, forced labour work camps, relay the roads, improve the rail infrastructure & then when thats all done force them to work offshore, reducing the need for losing talented white men in helicopter crashes?
The problem is we are actually at war, fighting against people who we taught in the first world war it was ok to target civillian populations & infrastructure, so long as you won. Promised them a home land, then reneged on that promise before doing it all again 20 years later, adding insult to injury by helpinmg establish the jewish state of israel (the real reason why 911 was a significnant date, nothing to do with the emergency number). Fast forward to the late 70's early 80's with the soviet invasion of afghanistan, we do the same thing, train arm and then abandon.
You reap what you sow & for a century we have used the arab/tribal people, who are mainly muslim, to our own political ends. Take a further example of the end of the first Gulf war, we encouraged both the Kurds & the Marsh Arabs around Basra to rise up, armed them trained them then abandoned them, watching as they were slaughtered, and in the case of the Kurds watchwed as the Turks slaughtered them from the other side.
I dont claim to know the soloution, just think we showed be honest about the route cause of the problem and size of the job ahead.
125

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:05:27
Alasdair - look at the reality of the situation. Who has attacked who ? In all honesty the scale of 9/11 is dwarfed by the deaths in muslim countries. Who has the right to be angry ? What are WE getting angry about ? Where is our Gaza ?
126

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 16:11:23
7
Dark Lochnagar,
http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 10/04/2009 00:43:52

How did they let you back in?

Still can't comment on your website, WURRAFUK!
127

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:12:37
The people in muslim countries and Arabs in general are treated like second class human beings. They are disposable. Bill Clinton ordered a raid on Iraq BEFORE the war as a distraction from his sex scandal. It is known as the War of Monica's dress. Operation Desert Fox. It killed more people than 9/11. But they were only Iraqis.
128

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 16:12:50
Afternoon Obs

Still got nowhere to go during daylight hour.

I though they had allday opening of pubs in Scotland?
129

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 16:19:47
#114

How many rocket launchers were made in Pakistan?

Fekin millions, if you are talking about SPGs

I have it on good authority that the Russians left thousands of them when the retreated.

Alastair, wrt tracking of weapons I think it is very difficult a bit like blood diamonds, they pass though so many hands with so many false (maybe legally false documents.


I believe that the real reason Bush, Chaney and Blair knew that Sadaam had the ability to make nerve and biological agents is that they had the sales receipts to prove it.

I am going back to sleep now.

130

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:20:11
Afternoon Faux. I stay out the pubs before six o'clock. It's good for the liver.
131

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 16:21:43
OBS

Where is our Gaza ?

Glasgow East?

The male life expectancy is greater in Gaza, Isreali culls included, than Glasgow East.
132

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 16:24:01
Obs

Afternoon Faux. I stay out the pubs before six o'clock. It's good for the liver.

I'm pinning my hope on stem cell technology
133

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:25:07
I doubt that statistic is true now after the recent cull of Gazans.

But I certainly think we are better off concentrating on domestic issues and leaving the rest of the world to go to hell in their own way, not ours.
134

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:29:00
''New Labour diversionism''

Precisely Cynicus. It should not be beyond the capacity of the Government to control entry to the country without branding every Pakistani a terrorist. But it seems beyond the capacity of this lot.
135

Alan B,

10/04/2009 16:30:36
Labour are mired in sleaze and suddenly the media is diverted by a high profile activity round alledged terrorism.

Problem with labour is they are so dishonest that you simply do not and cannot believe anything they say. They have destroyed any faith in government and make you cyncical about these serious issues.

136

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 17:01:17
Observer,

I do not disagree with any of your points and I think the way White European Christian Men have behaved all over the world to the ethnic people of every continent is utterly disgraceful.

BUT! I did none of these things, neither did the people killed in the Tube bombings. My comment on 9/11 as I watched it on the TV to my colleagues at the time. The USA has reached into the Bee Hive too many times and aggressively to steal the honey and they have now been stung. The same USA that sponsored terrorism throughout the world to further democracy and once again innocent people died on both sides for Man's pride, political views or religious ideals.

That is the history but however this started we must accept it has started. We are at War although they do not wear uniforms or draw lines on the map.

Their is no Truce in Islam it is just stopping the Jihad until they have enough strength to continue.
137

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 17:09:51
139Observer,, Glasgow 10/04/2009 16:25:07
I doubt that statistic is true now after the recent cull of Gazans.

But I certainly think we are better off concentrating on domestic issues and leaving the rest of the world to go to hell in their own way, not ours.

========================

100% agree.

They have their ways. We have ours. If you come to our country it is OUR way. If we goto yours it is YOUR way.

Hopefully the good aspects of each will be adopted by mixing. They are more than cultures they are systems of living.

I do not accept that a single women in the UK should be judged by Sharia Law. A women must have exactly the same rights as a man.

If people do not want to live this way. They will be braking our rules, laws or system whatever you wish to call it and should be deported.

Same if we opened a Distillery in Saudi Arabia. It might be my culture but it is not theirs. I respect their choice. I cannot goto Mecca because I am an Infidel and would be jailed if I tried.

Other cultures have their own homes and rules. We should not be embarrassed that we have ours.

We cannot change views by violence you can only suppress a view by violence.

Leave the Middle East, Pakistan, Africa to work it out for themselves and prosper or die. That is how cultures evolve or die.
138

tommy,

belfast uk 10/04/2009 17:10:56
I get more and more browned off-- Just how could so many many people misunderstand the teachings of the koran,hadiths etc.,
and I do not refer to muslims...they seem to have got it right.
139

Bemused and above it all,

10/04/2009 17:12:51
#142
Which begs the question of why we dont use our forces appropriately?
MI5 - quite rightly stated they have never ordered the killing of anyone outside the UK.
MI6 - quite rightly stated they have never ordered the killing of anyone inside the UK.
SAS - specifically trained in anti terrorist operations with 2 battalions permamently in the UK, 1 for antiterrorist response within UK, 1 for response outwith.
We have the apparatus, know who we want, most likely know where they are & these guys are a hell of a lot more accurate than the cruise missile 'surgical strikes' which do considerable 'collateral damage'. At least if we are using ground forces to hit them, anyone getting hit along with them is definetely fair game. Read the memoirs ofthe guys in Aden & cyprus etc, folk learned very quickly to leave us be when we were hitting back with such clinical ferocity.
140

Alan B,

10/04/2009 17:33:31
#Alasdair

Cannot really agree with you.

The world is getting smaller all the time and we are all interdependent.

Do we ban trade with other countries or just non white ones, or just muslim ones? Do we not take ethical or moral views if we are trading? Do we stand by and let people die in poverty and starve etc? Do we let one country kill the people of another or just protect and interfere where they are white, european etc.

If the uk is to isolate in the way you talk do we pull out the eu, wto and sink ourselves into relative poverty.

Should europe stop buying oil and stop the car in europe?

Should we just ban turkey from the eu because of their religion? Remember morroco was rejected from membership of ec in early 80s. Immigration is largely down to the relative wealth of europe. By improving the wealth of the poorer countries as we can see with india and other transforming themselves via trade and encouraging democracy and human rights then many of the problem over the long term can be reduced.
141

Alan B,

10/04/2009 17:35:22
Also we do not have a static culture in this country and it will alway evolve and change. Countries are more multi cultural and that will not change and increase over time.
142

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 18:40:16
146Alan B, 10/04/2009 17:33:31
#Alasdair

Cannot really agree with you.

The world is getting smaller all the time and we are all interdependent.

==================
AGREE. We are all sharing the same planet but we do not need to send our killing machines to another country in the name of piece. The simple presence is enough to cause a conflict. We need a bolder United Nations to adopt the roll of world police not UK/USA with obvious trade and oil motivations.
==================

Do we ban trade with other countries or just non white ones, or just muslim ones?

====================
Trade is good. Fair Trade though not exploitation and slavery. Shared advantage. A persons creed, colour or imaginary best friend should not be a barrier to trade.
====================

Do we not take ethical or moral views if we are trading?

========================
We never have before now. Made in China, Oil from Arab absolute monarchs and dictators, Gas from Russia, Diamonds from Africa, So in answer to your questions. Currently we do not and I imagine this will continue.
========================

Do we stand by and let people die in poverty and starve etc?

=============================
Currently yes we do. We pay a footballer weekly what would feed an African village for a year. Millions die in Africa fighting over minerals the west will purchase. Hundreds of thousands die in China and Russia and we do not even report it. The military know, the government know but we turn a blind eye already.

=========================

Do we let one country kill the people of another or just protect and interfere where they are white, european etc.

=========================

We should take action as a United Nations equally. No more US/Russia/China Veto's, Security Council Permanent members, etc. I suppose it should be done with a democratic vote. Majority in favour then send in the peace keepers. Not an invasion force and private mercenary contract killers. We
143

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 18:41:33

We should take action as a United Nations equally. No more US/Russia/China Veto's, Security Council Permanent members, etc. I suppose it should be done with a democratic vote. Majority in favour then send in the peace keepers. Not an invasion force and private mercenary contract killers. We should not go where we are not wanted. Save a few hundred by killing a few hundred thousand does not seem fair.

Do not know where you get that idea. I am all for common humanity and the declaration of human rights for all. Watching the girls in Afghanistan suffer pains my heart but we cannot help them by killing their Dads, Brothers or Husbands.

As for colour of a persons skin I do not see the link you keep inferring. I am asking that we stop invading and stealing. Build new relationships and trade fairly but we need to withdraw our hands from about their throats to allow the communication to continue with dignity.

====================================

If the uk is to isolate in the way you talk do we pull out the eu, wto and sink ourselves into relative poverty.

===================================
No. We should support long term sustainable economic growth and infrastructure projects. Education and sanitation. Improve the quality of life so these people can start living instead of just surviving. But if a person is from a country that is actively planning a campaign of bombing here at home we should have restrictions.

=============================

Should europe stop buying oil and stop the car in europe?

========================================
We will have to stop one day. We should concentrate on finding renewable sustainable energy sources. When energy stops being a weapon of trade the world will be better. We need to buy and they need to sell we are co dependent on this mechanism. But look what the Saudi Princes do with the money while their people suffer. They act like Pikes who won the Lottery.

==============================

Should we just
144

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 18:43:12


Should we just ban turkey from the eu because of their religion?
=============================
YES
=============================
Remember morroco was rejected from membership of ec in early 80s.
=============================
Still should be banned.
=============================

Immigration is largely down to the relative wealth of europe. By improving the wealth of the poorer countries as we can see with india and other transforming themselves via trade and encouraging democracy and human rights then many of the problem over the long term can be reduced.
=============================

Totally agree.

========================

145

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 18:49:40
Alan b,

Think about the immigration problem in a smaller sense.

YOUR HOME.

Do you leave your door open or locked. If you lock you door and control entrance does this mean you hate your neighbours?

Would you invite people to stay in your house and pay for them forever because they are homeless and seeking shelter?

Do you allow guests in your home to rearrange your furniture and redecorate your home.

Would you allow guest to stay in your house who gained entry by falsely claiming to be someone else.

Would you be able to feed and house everyone who needed it and would you bankrupt yourself trying or would you realise the futility of the idealism over the realism?

Lastly, would you welcome into your home someone from a family that has as its stated aim to destroy your home and family?
146

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 18:54:40
#151 Ali Mac.

I should report myself for that post. How Ewan Randall of me to just ask questions.
147

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 19:01:56
145Bemused and above it all, 10/04/2009 17:12:51
#142


I agree. The rules of engagement are ridiculous for our security forces.

As for you point we know who they are and where they are. Totally agree. But the security services must wait for them to commit and act before they respond so timing is critical.

If you are interested in who THEY ARE have a look at this link. You require Microsoft Excel/Excel Viewer

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/sanctionsconlist.xls

It lists all people who are currently though of as Terrorists/ Terrorist Fund Raisers/ Shell Companies / Dealers / ETC/ ETC

Have fun by searching by postcode.
148

,

10/04/2009 19:07:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
149

Boab,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 19:13:43
Smart enough to take off caps lock, though.
150

Boab,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 19:21:28
#145 Bemused:

'MI5 - quite rightly stated they have never ordered the killing of anyone outside the UK.
MI6 - quite rightly stated they have never ordered the killing of anyone inside the UK.'

Erm, you know MI5=inside and MI6=outside the UK, right?

MI5 allowed Abu Hamza to train and recruit Jihadists for several years in the late 1990s, while MI6 helped train Jihadists to destablize the former Yugoslavia. Sorry to be smug and all, I've probably spent too much time reading about this stuff.
151

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 19:24:58
Hugh Roscombe-please send my warm good wishes to Meths.

Thank you Alasdair and Observor for your comment.
We have had eloquent and charasmatic leaders come to us before giving much hope for a better future with seemingly intractable problems. I hope Obama does not let us down. We should not expect miracles from him but his openess, honesty and intelligence thus far give me great hope that at last the world has a man with true vision.
The problem of terrorism can only really be addressed by creating just societies although there will always be groups that will not respond to reason. The only positive side effect to come out of the Iraqi war was the removal of Saddam Hussein but given the choice I wonder how many Iraqis would have paid the price they have had to bear thus far. But then again-how do you deal with mad dictators-such as the sinister man from North korea who would rather spend money on weapons of death while his people starve. These are the people that will not respond to the Obamas of the world-what to do?
152

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 19:37:37
#155:

It might well be capitals but its the most sensible post today and well worth repeating, not least because it demonstrates how illogical our masters in London are, and provides another excellent reason why it is well past time Scotland jettisoned the economic, social and diplomatic baggage located south of the border.

1ST YOU LET THESE PEOPLE INTO ENGLAND AU MASS.
THEN YOU SPEND A FORTUNE WATCHING THEM BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KILL ALL OF YOU.
THEN YOU SPEND ANOTHER FORTUNE PUTTING THEM THRU A TRIAL AND HOUSING THEM AFTERWARD!!

SOMETIMES THE ENGLISH ARE NOT TOO SMART
CASEY PURVIS
A SCOTSMAN

And we let these people spend Scotland's oil money!
153

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 19:40:24
#157 Geoff.

Our leaders have an unwritten rule. You cannot shoot the leader of another country. You can kill millions of other people but not the leaders.

Seems the political elite are not to be involved directly in the war games. I for one would have tapped Saddam the first time round. Look at the difference in USA now bush is gone. The leader sets the direction and this can be changed with little blood shed.

Mugabe should be sorted ASAP but the leaders do not want revenge directed at them.
154

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 19:40:36
#156 Boab,

Ref #145.

I wondered the same thing but I think the point is the external force does not kill inside the UK and the internal force does not kill outside the UK.

If people knew how often an asset being used in middle east by MI6 for information to achieve their goal is facilitating crime being monitored by MI5 within the UK their would be riots.

The Drugs industry is a particularly stark example of policy not being joined up.

Tribal Leaders in Afghanistan - Protected by Uk military & Intelligence services, Trained and armed.(FUNDED BY UK TAX PAYER)

Smuggle Drugs though out Europe(Monitored BY MI6 FUNDED BY UK TAX PAYER)

Smuggled through Customs and Border Patrol (FUNDED BY UK TAX PAYER)

Distributed via large dealers (Monitored by MI5 FUNDED BY UK TAXPAYER)

Down to hundreds of thousands of small time dealers who are constantly arrested and jailed by police and criminal justice service (FUNDED BY UK TAX PAYER)

Purchased by UK TAX PAYER who is then Prosecuted at vast costs to the UK TAX PAYER all because our MP's (FUNDED BY UK TAX PAYER cannot admit the policy of prohibition is a failure.

The UK TAX PAYER is a little bit thick at times.
155

Thistledhu,

10/04/2009 19:49:29
would we be faceing this problem if we hadent invaded Afganistan?

Yes and probaly ten times worse.

Withdrawel from Afghanistan going to sole the issue of course not pakistan would quickly collapse and we would be all reading protect and survive leaflets.
156

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 19:54:28
83 Observer. Glasgow ...... From memory I think most of the IRA bombers (even the innocent ones we locked up for no reason) were employed in the building trade. Should we have barred entry to Irish builders ? The Glasgow Airport bombers were doctors, should we bar entry to all Arabic doctors ? It's a blunt tool that could end up doing more harm than good. I think we need to co-operate with the Pakistani authorities and the wider Pakistani community. I don't think you can do that by branding them all as extremists.

Observer, don’t know if your still posting on this, it’s not about the ‘‘jobs’’ of the terrorists - it’s about the routes or the methods the terrorists / would-be terrorists use to get into Britain. Example, if a tunnel is discovered being used to gain entry or exit or if a method or route is being used to illegally traffick persons into Britain then said route or method should be blocked. In this instance the method being used is via student visas, therefore withdraw all student visas to Pakistanis. Understand?
157

Geoff,

sa 10/04/2009 19:56:11
159 Alasdair Mac-Mugabe survived by the grace of Mbeki who saw him as an old school buddy in the freedom struggle. He continues to survive despite mutterings from some African leaders notably kenya and Botswana,because African governments and leaders are weak and effete. We are about to elect Jacob Zuma, a corrupt clown, as our next President. On the other hand the yanks voted Bush to power and Clinton dithered for several years whilst milosevic butchered thousands. None of it makes any sense to me.
158

Gene Peel,

10/04/2009 20:29:42
Me neither.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/
159

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 20:51:19
162 I understand what you're saying Blockem and there is logic in it, I just don't think it's proportionate. There were 42,292 student visas issued to Pakistan nationals between 2004, and 2008. Is it justified to sanction about 10,000 people a year because of accident of birth ?

This country has a relationship with Pakistn of long standing, not least due to the significant number of our own population of Pakistani descent who have close tied with the old country. I don't think closing the door would resolve anything, and might make things worse.

I do however think we should take up Pakistan's offer of running background checks on every student who applies for a visa, which amazingly hasn't been done before.
160

Phil C,

10/04/2009 21:38:21
Gordon Brown has less of a leg to stand on than anyone else when it comes to terror threats to the UK (apart from Bliar). He should shut that cakehole of his!
161

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 21:38:34
165, Observer,
How many thousands of student visas granted to foreign nationals and there aren’t enough places for British born students. The granting of student visas is about making money to the detriment of the education of our own people.

Stuff our relationship with Pakistan, it’s costing us £billions. I agree with you that a significant number of Pakistanis in Britain still look upon Pakistan as their true country - stuff them - if they prefer Pakistan - bon voyage.

If it means depriving ‘‘about 10,000 Pakistanis a year’’ of being educated over here and that cancels out even one terrorist attack then the rescinding of student visas to Pakistanis will have been worth it.
162

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 21:42:26
#165 Observer,

I do however think we should take up Pakistan's offer of running background checks on every student who applies for a visa, which amazingly hasn't been done before.

=========================

I agree that would be a start. We should also checking to see if the colleges that they are coming to are real. It seems that many of the people never attended any college at all. Many more did not attend the courses at all.

Now regarding the people arrested in the article. They were from the FATA and the Pakistani government has no control their. The Pakistani ISI are either involved or turning a blind eye. No amount of discussion with the Authorities in Pakistan would have stopped a determined people from coming here. If we allow some then we must accept the Islamists will get in.

I honestly do not have the faintest idea for we filter. Which is why I prefer safety first.

163

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

10/04/2009 21:53:39
#167 The Real Blockem

If it means depriving ‘‘about 10,000 Pakistanis a year’’ of being educated over here and that cancels out even one terrorist attack then the rescinding of student visas to Pakistanis will have been worth it.

==============================

I am a father, I also think the same. If nation's people offer a direct threat to my family, friends or fellow citizens then we block them all and let them solve their own problems.

Its not about race, religion or money for me it is about family safety first.

I would add Algeria and Pakistan to my list as persons made to go through special procedures that they will have to pay for.
164

Tris,

10/04/2009 22:04:20
Brown's ntural reaction to anything going wrong is to look around for someone to blame. He knows it can't be his fault because he is perfect, faultless, wonderful and the saviour of the world.

Nothing better than blaming it on foreigners. It's bound to resonate with people in the UK.

The truth is that without foreign students' fees, our universities would have to close down, so they go abroad searching out students to come and study here. They charge pretty big fees, make a profit and pay themselves bigger money.

The people who issue the student visas are the British embassies or high commissions in the students' home countries. It has nothing to do with the governments of the countries.

If I apply for a visa to study in America, it is not the British government's responsibility to pass me... I apply to the American consulate in Edinburgh. They work out whether or not I am a suitable person to study in their country.

Brown is a stupid ar$e.
165

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 22:19:01
167 Yes Universities do make a lot of money from foreign students. Not to the detriment of our students 'though. I don't think the principals of many Universities would thank you for barring students from muslim countries. That would be a knee jerk reaction which hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of being implemented as no Government is mad enough.

169 According to your thinking Bashir Ahmad posed a threat to your family as he originated in Pakistan. Such thinking is nonsense now stop looking at this through the prism of BNP propoganda and look at the reality. There are tens of thousands of Scots with links to Pakistan. They don't all pose a risk, and it is nothing short of racist to suggest that they do.
166

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

11/04/2009 00:28:15
#171 Observer,

I am not saying everyone from Pakistan is a threat. I am saying a threat is coming directly from Pakistan amongst the good people.

I just do not know how we are going to detect the dangerous ones. These Islamists are going to cause more trouble for the good Asians who have lived within our country in peace.

While the threat lasts we must have policy that reflects the threat. It is real. It is not propaganda.

The fallout of the Islamists being successful is the true purpose of the attacks. The backlash response.

It will draw a line in the sand and all will be made to choose a side. Much killing will follow.

On balance I prefer the restriction of the conflict through denying the Islamists wherever possible of gaining access to the country. Than the bloodshed that will follow a successful attack.

Even for the home grown terrorist much is glorified by the overseas jihadists when they arrive. It must be stopped.

I wonder if they were Klu Klux Klan members, Nazi or Skin Heads coming here to study would you defend them.

Anyway I politely disagree with your judgement but wholly understand your genuine motivation and positive reasoning. Time will tell. I hope you are right and I am worrying about something that never happens.

Good Night.



167

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 11/04/2009 00:29:38
170 Tris ‘‘The truth is that without foreign students' fees, our universities would have to close down, so they go abroad searching out students to come and study here. They charge pretty big fees, make a profit and pay themselves bigger money.’’

Britain can and should pay our universities more money - so they wouldn’t need to ‘‘go abroad searching out students to come and study here.’’ This would create more places for our own students to study - a sound investment. Where would the extra money come from? Remove the estimated 240,000 - 400,000 failed asylum seekers and remove the estimated 700,000 illegal immigrants from Britain. None of these illegals pay taxes and we are squandering £billions on them. Add the recent £480 million support package for the Pakistani government to “help ease the suffering of the 36 million poor people living in Pakistan” . A tidy sum - our money is there to spend on our own people.
168

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 11/04/2009 00:31:57
171 Observer,
Our potential students are losing out, for every place taken by a foreign student, one of our own people is denied a chance to farther their education - that’s obscene.

Alasdair mac isn’t being racist in his thinking. To put family safety first is paramount for governments and citizens ... and If that means blocking a country then so be it.
From your own posting at 139:-‘‘But I certainly think we are better off concentrating on domestic issues and leaving the rest of the world to go to hell in their own way, not ours.’’ I agree, this country and its people first.

Sweet dreams to you all - hope we will not be disturbed by a big bang.
169

FS,

Stirling 11/04/2009 03:44:27
Thought from the headline labour had gone into another war
170

Los Angeles,

12/04/2009 00:16:57

Our potential students are losing out, for every place taken by a foreign student, one of our own people is denied a chance to farther their education - that’s obscene. (Blocked Sink)

Anbd your proof for that statement is?



171

Los Angeles,

12/04/2009 00:19:09
THEY WANT TO KILL ALL OF YOU. (Purvis Puppets)

You remind me of the skeleton ventriloquist dummy who keeps glaring at the audience and shouting, "I KILL you!"



172

THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 00:57:17
Los Angeles, here’s you own comment from ‘‘05/04/2009 10:19:40 scot on sun’’

‘‘Can you explain the purpose of your carping?
It makes no sense, post after post, to sneer and snipe. You are not teaching us anything other than you have no counter argument for ....’’

Los Angeles, why do you post after post to sneer and snipe. Your constant absurd attempts to be funny and insulting through changing other posters’ monickers is childish, unfunny and you are not very good at it. You are merely being offensive and disruptive and you contribute zero to the forums - go away, nobody is bothering with you - you are a lonely pest.
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David Chaplin,

13/04/2009 14:01:13
This should come as no surprise as we see video of the brutal Islamist Regime that has emerged in Northern Pakistan.

Pakistan is home to many factions committed to using any means they see fit to strike a blow against the Western Democracies.

All students attending University from Pakistan should be very carefully screened and the authorities need to be extremly guarded.



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19/04/2009 15:03:28
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 23/04/2009 01:17:44
Rashid at 182 ....

The UK does not need Pakistani money .... but you lot certainly have no qualms about taking ours ....

Here’s another £480,000,000 (sic) of British taxpayer’s money stolen from our pensioners and given to the ‘‘poor’’ people of Pakistan ......

quote:‘ The finer details of the earlier reported £480 million support package for the Pakistani government have been revealed at a Scottish mosque — simultaneous with the announcement that the NHS has been ordered to cap its spending because of its dire financial situation. Douglas Alexander, the UK international development secretary, said the money for Pakistan is “intended to help increase security in border regions and focus on education and health.” The Labour MP launched the plan at Glasgow Central Mosque marking the end of a UK-wide tour to meet people of Pakistani origin. :unquote.

The UK wanted to “help ease the suffering of the 36 million poor people living in Pakistan,” Mr Alexander added. More than £250m has been earmarked to increase training for young people and get five million children into school. Other plans for the money include helping reduce the incidence of diseases such as TB and polio, and assisting with earthquake reconstruction. “Our aim is to continue to help improve poor people’s lives in key areas, making sure they have access to better healthcare, schools and employment opportunities.”

Now if Pakistan would stop sending its ‘‘students’’ to be educated in other countries, and if Britain would stop doling out £££billions to sponging, defunct, barren areas such as Pakistan, Britain could then use our money to the benefit of our own people
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 13:16:48
Dr Quaisar Rashid at 184 / 185 / 186 / 187 ....

The move into India / Pakistan / Bangladesh by Britain was one of the worst catastrophes the then British Government inflicted on the British people. I agree with you, in 1947 you got rid of us in 1947, but we did not get rid of you ....

Colonial power? The people of Britain have paid again and again and again for the ruinous blunder by our past Governments of colonizing your country and your people have used British colonialism as a blackmailing tool for years. You have taken £££billions from us in ‘‘foreign aid’’, you enter our country as immigrants, asylum seekers, refugees, health migrants et al - you are leeches - and you are correct - the British people are not happy in political investment (squandering) of their money in other countries, ie, Pakistan.

You want your money (student fees) back? I would gladly return to you and yours, your people and any finance you have given us, in return you and yours can keep the £££billions we have doled out to Pakistan and its people. As you correctly predict, ‘‘The vicious cycle will go on for ever.’’ I break, hereby, that cycle and demand you and yours remove yourselves from Britain and stay away from Scotland and Glasgow - and you are justified in asking, ‘‘kindly keep your hands off of my country’’ - now I am asking you and yours (millions of you) kindly keep your begging hands off our money - you are depriving Britain’s own millions of poor people of much needed finance.

Oh, and why did Britain enter into the Second World War? - To stop Hitler from occupying Europe - and if Britain had fallen - who would Pakistan and its people have invaded, colonized and sucked the blood from?
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28/04/2009 13:27:35
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28/04/2009 13:38:40
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 30/04/2009 21:13:27
Dr Quaiser Rashid at 189 .... ‘‘You are a voice of reason. Why have you sent this Brown to Pakistan? Look what he is saying. He says that he wants to invest in education and health sector in the valley of Swat. Did any Pakistani ask him to do so?
I regard these leeches like Browns and Whites of your country coming to our country to fetch their own benefit. I would be obliged if you could stop them coming here. But then what about that big mouth, Robert Brinkley. On every second day he visits the offices of politicians of various parties to do what?’’

We, the British, did not send Brown to Pakistan, we, the British do not want Brown or Robert Brinkley to have any contact with Pakistan. Did the Pakistanis ask him to invest? - who cares - but the Pakistanis will certainly take our money - and scream and beg for more. Also, we, the British don’t want or need a High Commissioner to Pakistan or anywhere else.
I regard these Pakisatani leeches of your country coming to Britain to siphon off our benefits. I would be obliged if you could stop them coming here. And what about the Pakistani big mouths who every day visit our unemployment offices of to scrounge off our benefits.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 30/04/2009 21:15:41
Dr Quaiser Rashid at 190 .... ‘‘Quote: Oh, and why did Britain enter into the Second World War? - To stop Hitler from occupying Europe - and if Britain had fallen - who would Pakistan and its people have invaded, colonized and sucked the blood from? :Unquote
That is the problem with the British. Had Europe been rented out to the British? How come the British was the custodian of Europe? You people are still suffering from same mental disease: mania to consider yourself the custodian of the world. You just inhabit a small island. Be contend with that. The world around you is not as wicked as you are that is the difference. You people came to the Subcontinent to buy (and smugle) spices. Then you made the local fight with each other and started ruling the area. Now a day, you people are raising slogans that you could be the next target of terrorism. By raising that alarm the UK intends to raise its international status and again wants to have some leverage in the international system. Do you think you people can achieve that?’’

Europe was never ‘‘rented out to the British’’ Europe had fallen to Hitler and Germany - Britain was next - Britain defeated Germany to stop Hitler ruling britain. You are jealous of Britain and the British. And yes, we do just inhabit a small island - get your people off our island and stop other Pakistanis coming to our small island - why do you lot prefer to live in our small island rather than your own sprawling, poverty-stricken country of Pakistan? Britain will again achieve when we get rid of the millions of freeloading Pakistanis, asylum seekers, health migrants, illegal immigrants and other assorted wandering nomads who are leeching off us.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 30/04/2009 21:16:48
Dr Quaiser Rashid at 191 .... ‘‘Kindly comment on the following statement of mine: Learning by mistake is good thing but some mistakes are devastating and change the history for ever.’’

To make an error and be wiser from your mistake is commendable - to make an error and repeat your mistake is derisory. eg, The British made the devastating mistake of associating with Pakistan and when we left we compounded our mistake by continuing our contact with Pakistan. Our mistake has been devastating - Pakistanis have used our past contact with your country as a blackmailing tool to allow millions of your scrounging people to migrate to Britain.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 30/04/2009 21:19:57
Dr Quaiser Rashid at 192 .... ‘‘Tell me honestly, don't you people lament the mistake you people committed by saving Europe from Hitler?
Just look at the consequences:
1. Hitler is no more.
2. Europe is independent of the UK and its influence.
3. Colonial power of the UK has gone.
4. You are defending your position in front of me.
5. I can mention the fifth loss but spare you and the other readers for the time being.’’


The British do not regret defeating Hitler/Germany - it had to be done or Britain would have been ruled by Germany.

The consequences:
1. Good, mission acclomplished.
2. Europe always was independent of Britain. All countries influence each other - its called debate - how else could the Pakistani people survive without bringing their begging-bowl to the debate.
3. GREAT!!! Wish the begging countries like Pakistan would go.
4. Neither Britain nor myself need defend ourselves against you - YOU are the beggar who has scrounged from us.
5. As you wish - did you seriously regard 1, 2 and 3 as losses! Don’t bother posting our fifth so-called ‘‘loss’’ - I don’t suppose the other readers (if anybody else is still reading) really want to know.

Dr Rashid, why are you reading and posting on a British newspaper? You appear to live in Lahore, Pakistan - why not use your time to help change the poverty and sickness in your own town or country? Why can’t you break your ties with Britain - you obviously despise us and wish us harm - yet you want to come back to Britain. You and your people are jealous of the British, of what we are, of what we have achieved. My advice to you - stay away from Britain and use you time to help your own people - we don’t want them - or you - or your spices.

Don’t bother replying - I prefer to use my posting time exposing the massive asylum and immigration con.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 04/05/2009 18:40:32
Dr Qaisar Rashid, Lahore, Pakistan at 197 ....

Sad that you should to resort to implying that I have a mental impairment. If you are a medical ‘‘doctor’’ you should be severely reprimanded for the use of such rhetoric against another person.

Regarding Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, I have previously informed you, the people of Britain do not want our government to associate with Pakistan. Regarding Pakistani ‘‘students’’, we do not want your people coming to Britain to be educated by us. Our universities and colleges should be used to educate our own people - Pakistan should educate its own people. If you want answers from ‘‘Brown’’, then you put your questions to ‘‘Brown’’.

Here’s a sample of what’s going on in Pakistan and Lahore and how Britain must pay .....

Saima Asim, and her two children, Ali (11) and Bilal (7), had a fall out with her husband in Pakistan. She fled all the way to Britain to claim asylum. She got it, and now we, the British people have to give her a free furnished house, money every week and feed and cloth and educate her offspring. Another three Pakistani parasites for us to squander money on. When a Glasgow / Scots / British woman has a domestic fall-out with her husband or partner she runs to her next door neighbour or her relative. When a Pakistani woman has a domestic with her husband she runs all the way to the UK screaming asylum. Pakistani women fleeing their husbands are given the right to remain in Britain - the British taxpayer has then to dole out £££thousand’s to keep her and her offspring.

Here’s another one, from your own town ....

A family of Pakistani Christians who faced being deported from the UK won a last-minute reprieve just hours before they were due to board a flight to their homeland. Asad and Gullrukh Gul and their three young children are in Glasgow and were due to be deported to Lahore at around 9pm last night. They fled from Lahore after they were persecuted by Islamic extremists because of their
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 04/05/2009 18:41:56
Continued from 198 ....

Here’s another one, from your own town ....

A family of Pakistani Christians who faced being deported from the UK won a last-minute reprieve just hours before they were due to board a flight to their homeland. Asad and Gullrukh Gul and their three young children are in Glasgow and were due to be deported to Lahore at around 9pm last night. They fled from Lahore after they were persecuted by Islamic extremists because of their faith, they genuinely feel their lives are at risk if they return to Pakistan." The family fled Pakistan almost a year ago after Mr Gul was targeted for printing Christian literature and accused of blasphemy, an offence which carries the death penalty. If he is returned to Pakistan and executed, his children, aged 18 months, three and five, will be put in the care of a Muslim family.

Instead of posting comments on British newspaper forums, I suggest you spend your time attempting the impossible task of cleaning up your town and country - I don’t give a **** as to what happens to the people of Pakistan - just stop them from coming to my country - and look after and educate your own children - we don’t want them.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 13/05/2009 10:04:58
Dr Qaisar Rashid Lahore, Pakistan at 200

I thought you would creep back to this thread - the same way as millions of Pakistanis creep into Britain and anywhere else they can scrounge off.

1. The usual tired comment/intended insult from the non-thinking fool.
2. You do not sympathize with any Glaswegian / Scot , Brit, you envy us - you can never be a part of us.
3. You stop him. Try doing something for yourself - stop asking other people to help you - the Pakistani people must learn to support themselves - and their offspring.
4. Oh that we would not provide asylum to Pakistanis (or anyone else) Why not try making Pakistan a better place to live in (lol) so that your Pakistani failures wouldn’t offload themselves, and their offspring, onto our country.
5. Pakistani students should not be educated in Britain. We should not be squandering our time and money on foreigners. Why can’t Pakistan educate its own people?(lol).
6. We owe you nothing. For the time you were in Britain you freeloaded from us. Keep our money - in return stay out of Britain.

From your own town .... why don’t you do something about this .... forget about Britain.

A family of Pakistani Christians who faced being deported from the UK won a last-minute reprieve just hours before they were due to board a flight to their homeland. Asad and Gullrukh Gul and their three young children are in Glasgow and were due to be deported to Lahore at around 9pm last night. They fled from Lahore after they were persecuted by Islamic extremists because of their faith, they genuinely feel their lives are at risk if they return to Pakistan." The family fled Pakistan almost a year ago after Mr Gul was targeted for printing Christian literature and accused of blasphemy, an offence which carries the death penalty. If he is returned to Pakistan and executed, his children, aged 18 months, three and five, will be put in the care of a Muslim family.
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 17:20:24
Qaisar Rashid Lahore, Pakistan at 202

Here he comes again, with the same old tired repeated comments - evidence of the limited learning abilities of the typical Pakistani. We waste our time and money attempting to educate Pakistanis.

1. Living in the past? Living in the present? Living in the future? Main thing is I am living here - in Britain - not in some poverty ridden, disease stricken, no-future black hole (Pakistan). That’s why you are jealous, why you cannot keep away from us.
2. I note you resort to using another race of people in your childish comparisons with the British. And have you noticed the ‘‘Negroes’’ who are playing in British football? You certainly could not have used the obese, unhealthy, unfit Pakistanis (lol) in your comparisons. Sport isn’t important - brain power / intelligence is important - and the British, the ‘‘whites’’, have intelligence in abundance. Where are the Pakistani brain cells? - redundant? - no - missing (they were never there).
3. The same old tired plea, blah, blah, blah, yawn, yawn, yawn.
4. Send them yourself, go on, get out your begging bowl, go on, down on your knees and beg for more of our money.
5. It will come, your Pakistani freeloading beggars and their offspring will be legally and rightfully booted out of Britain. Take them back, house, clothe, feed, educate (lol) your own beggars.
6. Pakistani students pay nothing. They deprive our own people of places in our colleges and universities while we waste our time trying to teach the unteachable.
7. The usual begging cry of the Pakistani - Send us money, give us money, we want your money.

Come on, stretch your brain, comment on this obscenity from your own town of Lahore, Why not contact ‘‘Brown’’ and ask for them back ? I don’t care what happens to the Gul beggars - just get them OUT OF BRITAIN.

‘‘A family of Pakistani Christians who faced being deported from the UK won a last-minute reprieve just hours before they were due to board a flight to th
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 17:22:31
continued from 202....

Come on, stretch your brain, comment on this obscenity from your own town of Lahore, Why not contact ‘‘Brown’’ and ask for them back ? I don’t care what happens to the Gul beggars - just get them OUT OF BRITAIN.

‘‘A family of Pakistani Christians who faced being deported from the UK won a last-minute reprieve just hours before they were due to board a flight to their homeland. Asad and Gullrukh Gul and their three young children are in Glasgow and were due to be deported to Lahore at around 9pm last night. They fled from Lahore after they were persecuted by Islamic extremists because of their faith, they genuinely feel their lives are at risk if they return to Pakistan." The family fled Pakistan almost a year ago after Mr Gul was targeted for printing Christian literature and accused of blasphemy, an offence which carries the death penalty. If he is returned to Pakistan and executed, his children, aged 18 months, three and five, will be put in the care of a Muslim family.’’
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 17:25:26
Qaisar Rashid Lahore, Pakistan at 202 ....

Here’s more of your Pakistani freeloaders who have run to Britain to beg off us. Go on, get them back to Pakistan - instead of posting your wee, whining, begging demands for your money back, get off your backside and do some work for your country and its people. Pass the names of these families on to your government and demand that your government comes to Britain and takes back their people and their own offspring.

Misbah Ali, her son Sharhoiz, 6, and daughter Noor, 4, who were taken to London this week to be deported but won a last-gasp reprieve. Misbah and her two children fled their homeland after what she says were years of mental and physical abuse at the hands of her own husband. There are grave concerns about the Ali family's safety should they be sent back to Pakistan where domestic abuse can be overlooked by the authorities.

Rahila and Muhammed Choudhary, who have three children aged four, nine and 11 fled Pakistan after a kidnapper tried to snatch Mrs Choudbary and her eldest son as she picked him up from school. They have now been told they must return to Lahore, where their lives could be in danger.

Humaira Quadoos, and daughters Waieeba, 8, Maida, 6, and Mahnoor, 3, have been detained and face being deported to Pakistan tonight. Humaira - who came to Glasgow from Edinburgh just five weeks ago after fleeing her husband, who she claims was abusive - fears her and the girls' lives will be in danger. Humaira fears there will be a backlash from people in Pakistan after her brother, a strict Muslim who lives in Lahore, accused her of bringing shame on the family by leaving her husband. She is begging immigration officials to let her and the girls stay in Glasgow.

Saima Asim (35) came to Scotland with her two young sons, Ali (11) and Bilal (7) six years ago to seek refuge from her violent husband and in-laws. If Saima and her children are returned to Pakistan she faces extreme problems as a single wo
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THE REAL BLOCKEM,

Glasgow 15/05/2009 17:26:50
continued from 205 ....


Saima Asim (35) came to Scotland with her two young sons, Ali (11) and Bilal (7) six years ago to seek refuge from her violent husband and in-laws. If Saima and her children are returned to Pakistan she faces extreme problems as a single woman who left her husband.

 

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