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Plea for unity after Assembly approves appointment of gay minister

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Published Date: 24 May 2009
THE KIRK last night voted to appoint a gay minister to his new church in a ground-breaking move at the General Assembly.
After an impassioned debate on the issue of allowing openly homosexual ministers to take clerical office, commissioners came down in favour of the Rev Scott Rennie, whose appointment to an Aberdeen church had threatened to cause a deep split in Kirk ranks.

But the Church's future policy on the ordination of gay ministers remained uncertain, with Rennie's supporters insisting his appointment did not set a precedent. A debate on a motion that would prevent gays and lesbians being ordained as a general Kirk rule was postponed until tomorrow.

Last night's vote followed a plea for unity from the Kirk's Moderator, William Hewitt, in an attempt to head off the biggest schism in the Church for more than a century. Some ministers had threatened to quit the Church of Scotland if Rennie's appointment to Queen's Cross Church was ratified.

Despite the rupture, the Assembly's commissioners, sitting as a civil court on spiritual matters at the Mound in Edinburgh, found Rennie, a gay man in a stable relationship, to be fit to serve. After four hours of legal and theological arguments and a stirring rendition of the hymn "Spirit of Truth and Grace Come to us in this Place," they voted in Rennie's favour by 326 votes to 267.

Some had feared such a decision would tear apart the Church, bringing the biggest split since the Great Disruption of 1843, when a third of its members left to form the Free Church of Scotland. Moderates, however, were late last night at pains to stress that the decision did not set a precedent.

After the vote, a delighted Rennie said: "I am humbled that the General Assembly has recognised God's call on my life, as well as the lives of the congregation of Queen's Cross in Aberdeen. I am grateful that the nature of the discussion tonight was measured and respectful of different views shared amongst us.

"In a broad and national church there is more than enough room for us all. I look forward to moving to Queen's Cross and to serving and caring for people in my new parish."

The Equality and Human Rights Commission Scotland said it was "delighted" with the result. Alyson Thomson, head of communications, said: "The Church of Scotland General Assembly has set out a clear stall – it is a modern church for a modern Scotland. The commission is delighted that the Church has, as Scott Rennie requested, taken an honest look at itself over the issue of sexuality and decided that the values of fairness, equality, dignity and respect are of more worth than those of ignorance and intolerance."

The Church has been split by the appointment of 36-year-old Rennie, who was married but is now in a relationship with another man. He was appointed minister of Brechin Cathedral, in Angus, ten years ago, before "coming out" as homosexual and planning the move to his new position. He won the overwhelming support of the Queen's Cross congregation and the local Aberdeen presbytery for his appointment.

Rennie, a divorced father of one, has said he was open with the congregation at Queen's Cross about being gay and living with his male partner.

However, a dozen members of the presbytery lodged an official complaint against the move, effectively accusing the Aberdeen group of trying to bounce the Kirk into a decision on gay ministers while it was officially undergoing a "period of prayerful reflection and dialogue" on the issue.

The Church has successfully avoided a devastating confrontation on the issue of gay ministers for more than a decade and a half. Its General Assembly in 2007 put the issue on the backburner in the interests of unity.

Following the vote, the Kirk would not officially comment on the decision, other than to confirm the outcome of the vote. About 900 elders and ministers took part in the session, which got under way at 6:30pm, but not everyone cast their electronic ballot.

During the debate, Ian Aitken, one of the objectors to Rennie's appointment and a North-east minister, told the General Assembly that the Aberdeen presbytery had "taken a decision that the General Assembly itself was unwilling to take just two years ago".

He added: "We ask you to uphold the complaint so the breathing space is once again found in this vital debate."

Aitken stressed there was "no witchhunt" against Rennie and said he regretted press coverage suggesting that the Church of Scotland was "homophobic and unwelcoming". "All," he stressed, "are welcome."

Aitken added that he understood the human dilemma facing Rennie. He said: "I personally would find it very, very difficult to choose between the person I love and my ministry.

"The last thing we want to do is bulldoze a decision. We believe our presbytery has stepped ahead of the rest of our Church."

The presbytery, defended by George Cowie, denied there had been any bid to dictate Church policy on the issue from Aberdeen. Instead, Cowie said, the presbytery had merely acted in the interests of "natural justice" and a decision against Rennie would have amounted to discrimination.

Cowie, however, also defended the rights of gay and lesbian Christians, saying: "It is extraordinary that we have struggled so much with this one issue.

"Are we to tell people that because of the way God made you, you must live alone and not have a life's companion?

"In the scriptures we find the overwhelming message that Jesus embraced those who were rejected by the religious authorities."

Cowie said that the Church had previously found ways of modernising and of changing its views on slavery, women and divorce.

He said the interpretations of scriptures could be changed. So too, he added, could the Church's understanding of homosexuality.

"It was once considered to be an illness, or a lifestyle choice. Many, many people now consider it part of an individual's make-up."

Other commissioners spoke up for Rennie the man. One friend, James Simpson, said Rennie had enjoyed a "wonderful ministry", before adding: "I hope we can go beyond the gay label attached to Scott Rennie to see the person I know and the members of Queen's Cross Church have begun to know."

Another minister, Jill Clancy of Glasgow, paid tribute to Rennie's "honesty" for confessing his homosexuality. She added: "If we get the opportunity to discuss homosexuality it will be a discussion that will go on for many years."

It was far from clear whether the decision would amount to the kind of precedent that would lead to a schism. Those speaking for Rennie said it wouldn't. Those against Rennie said it would. One commissioner, Derek Browning, sought some clarity by ensuring that a motion in Rennie's favour did not carry a rider that it did not amount to a new position for the Kirk.

He said: "God is calling people to break new ground and that is always a painful thing to do. It is time for a new reformation to take place within this church and churches around the world." Browning, however, withdrew his amendment.

Commissioners were also set to debate a separate motion, from the presbytery of Lochcarron-Skye, to prevent any more gay or lesbian ministers being ordained. But last night that was postponed until tomorrow. Some senior clerics are understood to be trying to find a way to defer any such decision and avoid a split.

A campaign against Rennie's appointment was led by a group of evangelicals called Forward Together. They gathered a petition that includes the names of some 400 ministers, about half of the total number in Scotland. Insiders warned that many of those traditionalists might leave the Kirk if Rennie's "calling" was confirmed by the General Assembly.

Earlier, groups of demonstrators, led by Pastor Jack Bell of Zion Baptist Church in Glasgow, gathered on separate sides of the street outside the building at The Mound.

He said: "We are protesting against the very real possibility of Scott Rennie having a majority tonight. We are absolutely opposed to that, on the basis of what God has to say about homosexuality in the Bible."

Reverend Lindsay Biddle of Affirmation Scotland, a group which supports gay and lesbian clergy, said she hoped Rennie would be accepted into the Church.

"We are praying that the General Assembly will affirm the call process and allow Scott into the Church," she added.

"There are many gay ministers in the Church of Scotland, there always have been and there will continue to be. The only difference is that people now know there is an openly gay minister in the Church."

She added: "Scripture does not address homosexuality, much less condemn it."


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  • Last Updated: 24 May 2009 12:29 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Church of Scotland
 
1

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

23/05/2009 23:23:52
This is great news for Baggy Troosers.

He always wanted to be a minister.
2

Tracker,

24/05/2009 00:08:36
This vote tells us that there are an awful lot of Church of Scotland ministers who are homophobic.
3

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 00:09:07
Welcome to Heresy Scotland. The Church of Scotland is a disgace. Bring on the schism in the name of Christ.
4

,

24/05/2009 00:20:06
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5

,

24/05/2009 00:20:39
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6

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 00:21:03
Another victory for the secularist self indulgent society. No values of self denial, only personal fulfillment. The bible is now as irrelevant as the once mighty Church of Scotland. Wolves in sheep's clothing indeed. Time for Disruption, if any of the Kirk even know what that was about. Welcome to Scotland: anything is permisable, except the authority of the bible. A plague on your house.
7

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 24/05/2009 00:21:05
typo lol me should have been included in the line will get me tarred
8

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 00:27:49
6 You're very bitter. I know it must be hard for extremists like you to deal with the 21C but you don't sound very Christian quite frankly.
9

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 00:31:13
Well done Mr Rennie. Are you proud of yourself? Having made the church and its teachings purely optional. Be courageous and leave. Your self fulfillment and selfishness will destroy the church. Maybe you have done us a favour. Leave, go and sin no more.
10

,

24/05/2009 00:31:37
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11

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 24/05/2009 00:38:25
well it will be interesting to see,all those who dont agree ,being treated worse than satanists
whatever happend to free speech and democracy in scotland,as it seems ,that the minorities now hold majority sway
if someone says they dont agree with ,homosexuality,they are treated like that wee guy in ,monty pythons life of brian,who had the gall to say ,"Jehova!" is this what we have become?,a watered down nazi state,where free thought and opinion are frowned upon unless it fits in with the incrowds thoughts
12

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 00:43:48
11 I always find coments like your amusing. Why is it that you can't stand minority groups asserting themselves ? Do you expect them to suffer discrimination and prejudice without demur ?

When talking about Nazi states do try and remember it was homosexuals whom the Nazis murdered, because of how they were born.

13

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 00:49:03
I have hate towards no one. If you accuse me of that you are condoning the sin and shifting the guilt. It is a common practice with the gay community, shift the blame to those who uphold the Word of God. Make them feel guilty by accusing them of bigotry, homophobebia, non inclusivenessm whatever. It seems some liberal secularists hate Christians simply for upholding the teachings of Christ who forgave sinners with the warning, "Go and sin no more."
Mr Rennie, "Go and sin no more."
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 00:50:08


Not so long ago it was frowned upon for Women to have Children outside wedlock, to the point that the Child was removed from the Mother at birth, probably the Church had a lot to do with this terrible atrocity.
Time moves on as it does, Women have Children outside marriage, and not an eye blinks, as will not the congregation's eye's when presented wit a Gay Minister

Love is the message the Church tries to give out and make people understand, I see none the problem of the Gay Minister!, as I do not or have ever believed, that it should be frowned upon the 'Single Mothers'!





15

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 24/05/2009 00:55:30
i will defend anyones right to free speech,even at the cost of my own life
gay bashing etc has been eradicated from mainstream society,as is discrimination against homosexuals in the work place,all which should be welcomed in a society that is free to speek
yes german nazis killed homosexuals ,gypsies,jews etc which this country fought against,and dealt a death blow to
what i object to is the ones who dont want me or others to say anything that may just go against what they think is right,even by an inch,its what makes democracy,having a debate,and changing what needs changing for the common good
but all i see is the likes of canada being shot down for his/hers opinion as a christian
therefor when we do that we are being a bit like nazis in some extent,ie think as we do or else

16

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 01:01:17
17 Not against free speech - I'm all in favour of it. But Canada should just tell us the truth - he doesn't like homosexuals. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. But it doesn't come with approval from Jesus - who had nothing to say about homosexuals - absolutely nothing at all.
17

Bevin Boyce,

24/05/2009 01:08:02
Call me "agnostic" if you like, but I really, really just don't know.

Enjoy today. Tomorrow might never happen.
18

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 24/05/2009 01:11:40
#19 yes i see your point,just as charles has pointed out what the church did to unwed mothers,and their offspring
the church has its faults as seen in child abuse cases
so right and wrong is seen in everything these days ,its just getting the balance right where no one group is favoured above anyother after all we all die the same,we were all born the same way,and for the scrooges out there ,sorry nae pockets in shrouds so you cant take it with you,unless your an MP perhaps
19

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 01:26:01
I normally don't respond, but Observer. When I first married it was pointed out that our upstairs neighbours were homosexuals. They invited my wife who was district nursing to watch Wimbledon whenever in their flat. We dined together, drank together, and when we left Scotland exchanged gifts. Jesus drank with publicans and sinners. Doesn't mean he approved of their lifestyle. He called then to repentance like he does with me if I drink too much. Don't accept the love of Christ as licence for self indulgence or anything goes. The Word of God is quite explicit. If you don't agree, it is non negiotable. Find your own religion, don't comromise the Kirk or Christianity. What God has ordained let no man put assunder.
20

Mogwai Fear Santa,

24/05/2009 01:27:37
The only "schism" in view is that promoted by the Hootsmon and a dozen hicks who see Gene Hunt as the Second Coming.

All I know is that some fella called Jesus was a decent cove and called for a bit of equality and redistribution under a nasty, bigoted regime. Like many millions of others since. Everything else is utter baws.
21

,

24/05/2009 01:31:41
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22

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 01:49:02
22 Has it ever ocurred to you that casting people as sinners for behaving the way they were born to behave is sinful ? It seems to be part of the human condition that a proportion (small) of people are homosexual. The rejection of this natural fact has caused a huge amount of pain and distress to those who are born that way. I cannot think that is right, and I applaud those members of the Kirk who don't think that is right either.
23

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 01:52:27
The Word of God is not negotiotable. Carved in stone. Read prayerfully. Often distorted as by the gay lobby, well organised, deceitful, distorting facts, name calling, accusing righteous Christians. In forty years have we suddenly become so enlightened to stand for nothing and fall for anything? The answer is yes. We are no longer a Christian people. We are quisslings. Chamberlains, gutless cowardly self serving compromising, anything goes, non entiieties.
24

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 02:03:50
28 Canada you seem to be in need of a good sleep. No one here is a quisling because Mr Rennie is not your enemy. He is a good man, for all that he is gay. Now go have a wee rest, there's a good chap.
25

Canada,

Canada 24/05/2009 02:43:40
It's well past my bedtime, and so, a wee sleep. But don't be lulled. Satan in sheep's clothing with false doctrine approacheth in the morrow, Goodnight Observer. Pray God for understanding, and in the morn put on the gospel armour and rage against heresy and wickedness. We are overwhelmed by today's secularist nonsense. Stand fast,upon this rock. Do not compromise God.
26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 03:29:33


The whole Christian Message, is one "To-Love"!

If this as it is, is to show your love to the same sex, what is wrong with that?

NO! I am not "Gay", but some of the nicest people that I have ever met are "Gay", who are we to Judge?

My Choice, Your Choice, Who's Choice?

It is of the Quality of the Person and how they can give out their everlasting Love to others, other than that of being to their Partner, this is the Quality we would expect from a Christian Minister, Gay or Not!

27

rover 12,

Calgary 24/05/2009 03:50:56
A number of those commenting are apparently confusing
'Love' with 'License'
28

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 04:15:36

rover 12 ~34,

Maybe so!, But if you believe, we are not the ones to Judge.


29

Advance Alba,

edinburgh 24/05/2009 04:28:44
I am a gay man. I have refrained from responding to some of the comments here which I found hurtful and offensive, because I adhere to free speech. But factual errors I think it is safe to try to correct. The homophobic stuff in the Bible is nearly all in the Old Testament, (the exceptions being in the Letters of St Paul) and none, not one single word in the Synoptic gospels. Instead, in the four synoptic gospels you find Jesus saying, when challenged for not obeying the Old Testament commands, that He came to fulfill the Old Covenant and to make a new covenant. That new covenant, sealed on God's side by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, has only two commandments: Love God, and love another. That is it in total.
One personal not if I may: I am a Christian, but I love and worship Jesus, not a book, even if it is the bible. I believe in a living God, and one who, in the words of St Paul, is forever making all things new. Couldn't put it better, even if St Paul was not really free from old fashioned homphobia himself.
30

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

24/05/2009 04:39:45
Hi Cynicus.

'Baggy Troosers' is one of the regular Nat Posters on here. He also posts as 'Advance Alba' as was witnessed above at #36.
31

Nurse at large,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 04:57:43
There was some commentary on marriage in the gospels. St John the Baptist condemned Herod for marrying Herodias his brother Philips wife. As a result he was first imprisoned then beheaded. The Church of Scotland appears to be saying that St John should have had compassion for the obvious love between Herod and his wife (not to mention Herod and his stepdaughter). No doubt he should have understood a little more and condemned a little less. And Jesus? Did he share this C of S approach? He described John as a burning and a shining light which rather implies that the values of Jesus in these matters are radically different from the values of the Church of Scotland.
32

J Murrah,

Texas 24/05/2009 06:02:41
It is a sad commentary that the church of John Knox has deviated from the teaching of Scripture the way it has. There is a time to love and a time to stand for what is right. Scripture is very clear on such moral issues. It is my prayer that the Kirk repents and returns to its once solid foundation.
33

The Scot,

Singapore 24/05/2009 06:37:31
#39 - I couldn't agree more! The Church of Scotland has been floundering for many years. Even as we speak, churches are closing all over Scotland and ever decreasing congregations merged (and remerged). Towns which boasted 20+ churches at the turn of the 20th Century now have only 3 or 4 churches. All over Scotland, our children have been bombarded with a socialist rhetoric and an agenda driven by badly managed television and schools which pander to minority interests puting the majority second or even third in line and now one of the last vestiges of sanity is surrendering itself. It is time for congregations all over Scotland to vote with their feet. Sure, the Church will have a honeymoon period where homosexuals will turn up for a few weeks or so to support the gay celebrity minister in Aberdeen but when everything settles down, this will be another nail in the coffin of the Church of Scotland.
34

,

24/05/2009 06:45:57
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24/05/2009 06:54:50
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,

24/05/2009 07:02:57
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,

24/05/2009 07:09:04
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24/05/2009 07:11:26
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39

dsm68,

glasgow 24/05/2009 07:12:23
George Cowie, "It is extraordinary that we have struggled so much with this one issue.

"Are we to tell people that because of the way God made you, you must live alone and not have a life's companion?


my main point is that mr cowie will answer to God alone. i dont look to the scribes on homosexuality, i look at the way God made us from scratch. male and female, creation creates, together as one body, God made all this right before the fall of man. adam looked at the animals, no desire for beastility, God saw this and made a woman, they fit toegther perfectly.

so yes mr cowie, gays are meant to live a life of abstinance, the same way that a hetrosexual lives their life, im no fan of gay bashing, but the bible is very clear to me about male female relations, jesus welcomes all, and that is the loving Christ, if he wasnt the loving christ i couldnt follow him. jesus in matt 19 mentions a genesis and the need for marriage...female and male marriage.

gay sex is not natural, homosexual feelings are. sexual orientations vary, living a life for jesus requires sacrifices, passion, devotion and obedience to his word. we have the right as christians to stand up and let the gay community know we love them, tell them what we beleive in and stick by it, and to encourage them in their walk with the Lord.
40

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 07:13:59
Observer,

recall a few weeks ago we talked about intolerant seculars, and you asked for some examples?

Have a read at the backward, hate filled, intolerant secular posts made by The Black Douglas on this page.
41

,

24/05/2009 07:16:35
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42

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 24/05/2009 07:17:19
#28 Canada
“The Word of God is not negotiable. Carved in stone.”

The Word of God orders that other religious adherents to be killed, including children.
Homosexuals, stoned to death (with stones no less). Collecting firewood on the Sabbath, stoned to death (with stones); disobedient to parents, stoned to death (with stones). Having had sex before marriage, for females only, - you’ve guessed it, stoned to death (with stones).
Out of the 10 commandments - 6 warrant capital punishment, usually stoned to death, with stones.

God of the Bible is no just, loving father. More a spiteful, ruthless, bully.

Please no one post John 3:16, as a proof that God’s really a good guy.
43

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 07:21:07
Robbie2,

LOL!!! The general idea, Robbie2, is that people use these pages to express their opinions on the matter in hand. You seem to have used them only to reveal your ignorance. LOL!!!
44

Hibby Heapy,

24/05/2009 07:32:17
I am genuinely pleased the GA has voted for this man of God. Who are we to question God? He has called this man to his service and not one of us has the right to question this.

I have also read what everyone has said on the issue over the previous posts and I pray for each and every one of you. There is no specific mention of Homosexuality in the bible whatsoever, though granted there are various passages that can be "interpreted" either way.

Jesus came to us to give us a new commandment, that of love one another, not stone the gays or fornicators. Nothing else.

I also can't resist commenting on a specific post, that of #41.

The Roman Catholic Church has been appointing paedophiles for centuries. As members of the CofS, we proclaim during our communion that we believe in the "Holy Roman Catholic Church". Therefore then it must surely only be a matter of time...
45

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 07:34:38
Could a heterosexual fornicator be accepted next as a CoS Minister?

Maybe some 40 year old Minister could take a 25 year old cutie to his Manse and fornicate with her regularly.

Were he to make Elders aware of his habit, would they knowingly appoint him to the role?

And if not.....does that mean they discriminate against heterosexual fornicators in favour of homosexual fornicators?

Surely the CoS needs to make it's position clear. Which fornicators does it prefer as Ministers? Homosexuals or heterosexuals?

And do fornicators better Ministers than rapists, murderers, paedophiles, or those who practice beastiality?
46

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 24/05/2009 07:35:14
So everything is ok then, the church say's sodomy is fine!
These people are not normal and I would not want my children near them.
47

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 07:39:21
Hibby Heapy, 51

Any of us who have made ANY form of appointment to a role take great care to get the right person for that role.

In reality, we know little of what we're getting.

I'm sure very many peoplle have appointed paedophiles to roles and have absolutely no idea of it.

In this case, the CoS has been made aware that this man is a fornicator. They know that this is against the laws of their Church.

I'm surprised.
48

Advance Alba,

singapore 24/05/2009 07:42:17
Just let's get one thing very clear. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice - to believe that exhibits profound ignorance. As a gay man I assure it is not. Be very careful, judge not that ye be not judged.
And homosexuality is as natural as can be. Read up on natural sciences and see how many species contain members who practise homosexuality.
I think the CoS is to be congratulated for having the guts to acknowledge this man's courage and honesty, and for his daring to love openly.
49

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 07:45:35
Alba, 55

look again. I - and many others - have no issue with this man *being* homosexual.

His fornication is the problem, not his *being* homosexual.

50

fife runner,

24/05/2009 07:59:22
the Bible says activ homosexuality is wrong. full stop. it says nothing about paedophelia but we all know that is wrong. if taken to its extent if the Bible sasy nothing about such and such then it ism ok according to some.

the apologists say the Bible says nothing about banning homsexuality, so if it does not say it according to them it is ok. so paedophelia is ok.
51

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 08:00:14
50 BOTOB,2
Why most of the better debaters of one to two years ago rarely post now is because the idea for people (like yourself) is to always us an ad hominem facetious remark, just a rude personal insult and believe they are in some way ‘clever’?
I replied to Canada’s remarks and claims concerning God’s word - in what way is that not related to the ‘matter in hand’. Lastly never and I mean never call me ignorant when discussing the Bible.
If you wish a detail argument concerning all the evils of the Bible and the actual problems with the actual authorship of the new Testament - then Bobby tobby I’m your man. Have your Bible at the ready. From the sacrifice of children, see Jephthah in Judges 11:29-40. How about the mauling to death of children for laughing at a Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24) Go count how many people God kills in the Bible - perhaps compare it with how many the awfy naught Satin kills (God wins by millions).
Of course referring to the Bible is relevant, that’s were religious believers get their anti-homosexual ideology. If you 50 BOTOB,2 are a Christian you would debate not insult.
52

,

24/05/2009 08:00:43
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53

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:18:27
Robbie2, 58

I learned a long time ago, Robbie 2, to treating your sort as if you were capable of adult debate.
54

chooseyethisday,

Australia 24/05/2009 08:20:04
Yet another nail in the church's coffin.
55

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 08:20:15
57 fife runner
“..the Bible says active homosexuality is wrong. full stop.”

The Bible says a lot of things that decent folk would not consider as just or ‘moral’
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
They'll stone you if you're raped and do not scream. Deuteronomy 22:23-24
They'll stone you if you marry when not a virgin. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
They'll stone you if you worship other gods. Deuteronomy 17:2-5 + Deuteronomy 13:5-10
They'll stone you if you disobey your folks (full quote needed here)
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother .. Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
They'll stone you if you if you're a wizard or a witch. Leviticus 20:27
They'll stone you if you if you're a Sabbath breaker. Numbers 15:32-56
They'll stone you if you curse the dictator.Kings 21:10
fife runner: homosexuality is a victimless act paedophilia (if carried out ie child abuse - there is a difference) has a victim. Can you see the difference?
56

Media at One,

24/05/2009 08:21:33
The people protesting are typical of religious indoctrination. Filled with hate for those who are not living life to the standards they have been FORCED to adopt, they will behave like cult worshipping zombies.
Their god has even distanced himself from them, I am an athiest so there is no reason for any god to visit me, but they are supposedly religious and he doest visit them either - appears to me there is a bit of a problem with this concept!
Practicing religious people are for the most part hypocrites who are unable to embrace people who are different -
57

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:22:17
Black, 59

OK, you're an intolerant secular hate machine. Fine.

You ask a question in your second para and then presume an answer.

Let's call your first para proof that you are here to hate and your second para proof that you are stupid.

BTW, Christianity is the planet's biggest religion with approaching 2000 million members.
58

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 08:25:30
60 BOTOB,
"My sort" What does that mean"
"My sort" What an aged grandpa with a loving family and a extremely happy home life in small town New Zealand? "My sort"? Please go and study your Bible. I’m away for our family dinner.
59

chooseyethisday,

Australia 24/05/2009 08:25:56
Re 46 can we assume then that a bisexual minister can have two " companions"?
60

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:26:11
Media at one, 63

Are you prsenting yourself as a visitor from Denmark today of have you given up on that lie?

Your bigotry\hatred\intolerance is based on certain myths.

Your sort relies on those myths to justify your hatred.

Were we strip away your myths only your bigotry would remain.
61

Media at One,

24/05/2009 08:28:18
Robbie
You are right, but the evil in the bible is overlooked by the believer - unwilling to accept that their god is the evil slayer they look to find comfort in the new testament and pray to Jesus instead - meek and mild homosexual Jesus is where they find their sanctity!
But you must remember they are afraid, the believer suffers from a psycological fear of death, they cannot accept that the end will come and thus invent a world of fantasy that bcomes real to them. They create this paradise in their mind and call it heaven, yet none of them are in a hurry to go there - they will take the good parts of the bible and ignore the horror -
FACT = God murders 2.6 million people in the bible
FACT = The devil murders 12
62

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:28:25
Robbie 2, 65

Oh, I know your sort, Robbie 2.
63

Zedwed,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 08:28:33
I was deeply moved by a sermon on Matthew 7.3: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, with never a thought for the great plank in your own?" I can't help thinking that most of us could do with repeating this daily, before writing here.
64

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:30:08
Media at One, 68,

LOL! I guess I shouldnt be surprised seeing a self confessed liar come here and post lies!!! LOL!!!
65

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:33:39
Zedwed, 70

Aye, I wonder how well qualified many here are to talk of the expenses fiddles of MPs. Pot\kettle.

And...ask an intolerant secular about the creation of the world and you'll get a rabid rant much less believable than Christianity about dust, planets crashing at 63.567 degrees etc etc.....and then they'll tell you it's scientifically proven!!! LOL!!!
66

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:34:50
Could a heterosexual fornicator be accepted next as a CoS Minister?

Maybe some 40 year old Minister could take a 25 year old cutie to his Manse and fornicate with her regularly.

Were he to make Elders aware of his habit, would they knowingly appoint him to the role?
67

Media at One,

24/05/2009 08:42:49
BOTOB

Here is the thing - The fact that your lack of intellect only offers you access to words such as racist and bigot is of no concern to me -
Truth is, you can call me racist and bigot, but your church and your religion will still be intollerant.
I am an athiest but here is the thing;
I accept homosexuality and I believe that it is normal because it is natural to the homosexual.
I believe that people should be allowed to wear contraceptives because they save lives.
I believe that abortion is not the ideal choice but for some people who live in a very different world to mine it is their only hope of survival.
So in closing, call me what you like but at the end of the day your god is still nowhere to be seen, appointing a gay minister results in bigotry and the wearing of a condom means confession for your sins.
If you want murder, hatred and absolute bigotry then take a look at Robbie's post #62
I would sooner be called a racist than a believer in that horror -
And speaking of horror, the Catholic Church in Ireland are currently the world's most despicable criminals - How is that for bigotry?
68

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 08:46:03
#73 BOTOB

Reading your posts above, I think its the case the Kirk would have no problem with appointing a rapist, murderer or paedophile as a minister. As long as that person has recognised their sin, repented for it and changed their lifestyle, there's no issue.
69

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:47:24
Media at One, 74

LOL!!!! In response to my charge that you rely on myths to justify your rancid bigotry you provide a post that PROVES that I was absolutely right!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
70

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:48:52
Draco, 75

Thank you.

What would they say if, as in the case of this fornicator, it was his intention to continue throughout his term as Minister?
71

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 08:49:18
69 BOTOB,
“Robbie 2, 65 Oh, I know your sort, Robbie 2.”
Yep! you’ve got me. You’re too witty a debater for me. How did you manage to ’sort’ me out so quickly” devine assistance?

68 Media at One
Sad part is they take it so personal when you try to have a discussion or chat. If you don’t blindly accept their way - then you are an evil sinner, doomed for an eternity of horrific punishment all at the hands of their merciful god. Can’t they see (by really studying their “Holy Book’ that actually we (non-believers) are perhaps the ‘good guys‘?
72

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:51:36
Robbie 2, 78

Oh, it was easy. It was revealed in your posts.

You may think you're smart, Robbie 2, but in Scotland you're sort are very common.
73

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 08:51:46
* your sort
74

,

24/05/2009 09:05:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 09:05:44
L, 82:

I really dont know....but I'm sure he did it only once!
76

Media at One,

24/05/2009 09:16:57
The Black Douglas

Be careful, don't fall in to the religious trap. Hatred, division, racism, bigotry and evil is their drug, it is not yours!
I dont hate people like BOTOB, I pity them. What chance does he or any of the other indoctrinated masses have when they are brought up in a world of dogmatic evilness and closed mindedness?
They are not allowed to accept homosexuals, they are not allowed to accept people of different religions, they are not allowed to wear contraceptives, they are not allowed to abort, they are banned from all sorts of things depending on their chosen religion. They MUST fall to their knees and worship, cultivate and honour the man in robes who preaches to them. They must hail the lord of lords as KING..But unlike the Kings and Queens we know, their king is invisible, he exists for sure, but only in their minds - take that and then diagnose it, what your left with is delusion, and with that in mind you cannot judge them as you would a normal person because they are not armed with the tools of reason that most of us are armed with.
77

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 24/05/2009 09:17:52
This anti discriminatory argument is nonsense. To make rules is not discrimination, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. There are arguments for having active gay ministers but this is not one of them. Anti discrimination and inclusion are societal norms, but not the basis for church law. Just because you don't appoint someone to a high status position could mean you don't think they're suitable or you question the election process but that doesn't mean you're excluding or discriminating. In this case, he would still have had a job anyway. Their main argument is that they are liberals holding a loose interpretation of the Bible often holding scientific reason as the standard for interpretation. That I don't have a problem with, as long as they are consistent. However to use the Biblical argument of Christ's compassion, love and acceptance is weak in this case, because if you're going to have Christ, you can't just invent a nice Christ that suits a subjective image of niceness. You have to understand his teaching in terms of the Bible literature from which he taught with its flow and concordant message. And he did discriminate. He talked about dividing the sheep from the goats, he talked about hell, he told people to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and said that not everyone will inherit the kingdom. He said some difficult things and he didn't teach fudge.
78

Helen,

24/05/2009 09:20:39
Alleluia!!!! Scott Rennie is a good minister and the majority of his congregation were happy to have him as their minister. Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle choice' as Castle Douglas #32 implies. People are born gay and homophobic generalisations do little to help them integrate into society. The chapter in Leviticus that the fundamentalists quote on demand, also says we shouldn't eat shellfish or wear clothes made of mixed fibres. It also says men shouldn't shave their beards and by the way it's ok to execute your neighbour if they work on the sabbath. Most of Leviticus is about Jewish purity laws. I congratulate the Church of Scotland on their insight and sensitivity, and hope this is just the tip of the iceberg. People should be ordained into ministry because they feeled called by God, and this calling should not be refused on the grounds of their sexual orientation.
79

Boy Wonder,

24/05/2009 09:21:52
I'm not religious ... at all. In fact I believe the world will be a better place once we get shot of that simplistic and medieval mindset!

But in the meantime, I applaud the CoS for its move in endorsing the choice of the parishioners who chose the Rev Scott Rennie. Indeed, if the CoS wishes to survive this century, it must be a broad kirk that is open to everyone and not just a few. A lesson all churches and cults need to learn.

Being gay is not a thing one chooses ... because if they could, I suspect they would choose not to be. It is as central to their being as is the sex-drive to all creatures. Consensual sexual activity needs to be taken out of Church opinions. By all means, retain the hostility to real sexual perversions like paedophiles and rapists ... but get out of people's bedrooms and stick to your rapidly disappearing pews!
80

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 09:23:58
Media at One, 85:

Correction: you hate the BOTOB myth that you've created.
81

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 09:26:35
Boy, 88

Are you suggesting the CoS should be fornication friendly?
82

Media at One,

24/05/2009 09:31:57
BOTOB - Actually no, I hate nobody!Not even you.

It is concerning when an organisation that advertises itslelf as a caring and godly place, is the same place who cannot unite and embrace another human being because he is different to them.
They cannot turn to the bible and say that their god says no, because then they must also follow through with the other things god said and then kill people for not being religious or for wearing a condom.
Imagine there were no governments and the church was in complete control? That is the scariest thought that any person can ever have.
83

Graham Barnes,

Gravsend 24/05/2009 09:48:38
I have nothing against homosexuals (except for the individuals who came on to me in my teens). As long as they keep themselves to themselves, fair enough. I admit that I don't approve of their lifestyle, but if it is so acceptable to society, why do we still have all this lurking in bushes on our local heath?

Not so many years ago, after it had been legalised, I took my children and dog for a walk. My children wanted to know why, in more than one instance, a man would get out of a car and another do the same and follow him immediately. This is not a thing on the past, it still happens. These are the type of people that have turned many of the public against the idea. It will remain a dirty, disgusting habit all the time we have this furtive behaviour.

As someone already said, if someone speaks out against it, they are considered homophobic and there is without a doubt, a ban on free speech if you don't like homosexuals. Everyone has the right to their own feelings and beliefs, but it is true that minority rules in this case.

84

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 09:55:00
''and there is without a doubt, a ban on free speech if you don't like homosexuals.''

Oh the irony......
85

John Cameron,

St Andrews 24/05/2009 09:56:44
How on earth can the Rev Ian Aitken claim that there was no witch-hunt against Rennie and criticize the media for suggesting the Kirk was homophobic and unwelcoming? He and his neanderthal friends presented the Kirk in that light all be themselves.
86

The Ayrshire Bard,

24/05/2009 09:59:34
I think that many are confusing homosexuals with paedophiles. The Catholic Church has had more than its fair share of the latter over the years, evil men who have concealed their perversions under their cassocks and who have preyed on children for many years.
However, an openly gay minister is totally different from these evil people. He is not attempting to conceal his sexual orientation and will present no threats to any young people in his parish.
87

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 24/05/2009 10:04:30
Fed up of this church and country that doesn't know its backside from its elbow. This stuff about inclusion is nonsense. There's plenty other religious groups willing to accomodate gay people in leadership without compromising what they stand for. Religious debate in Scotland is reduced to a fight between a bunch of namecalling, pointscoring, oneupmanshipping boors among the religious right, militant atheists, charlatans, heretics, ignoramuses, wombles etc. The only ones who seem willing to fight a fair fight are scholars and for some reason they're all backing the gay side. All that tells me is that they're towing the party line and unwilling to stick their necks out on this issue. It doesn't mean that they have the only arguments. I'm going back to bed.
88

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 10:06:17
There are some well thought out posts on this thread, I cannot comment on them all. I am sure Scott Rennie is a decent person but in my eyes it is wrong for him to be a minister.

I am old fashioned and from the Islands and also a member of the church, bluntly his practices go fundamentaly against my beliefs and I am incredabily uncomfortable regarding this issue.

Marrige should be between man and woman, end of story.

I am also sure Mr Rennie is a man of some courage but it may have been more courageous to have sacrificed this post in order not to cause this upheaval.

I am not bigoted or racist but this issue has distressed many people, and as was pointed out on an earlier post it seems that the minority are able to dictate to the majority.

I also think that previous ministers of this congration would be turning in their graves.

By the appointment of Mr Rennie three things will happen, the church will lose members probably to the Free, the church will turn lax in its beliefs, traditions and standards, and a more fundamentalist approach will rearrise.

It sounds like a contradiction but that is what will happen.

I do not think it will split the church but it concerns many greatly.

89

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 10:13:00
96 Perhaps there is a reason why the ''scholars'' are ''all backing the gay side '' ? Perhaps they have realised, as the majority have, that the selective cherry picking of certain OT verses to justify stigmitising gay people as sinners is not credible any more. We no longer have slavery or stone people to death, all of which is contained within passages of the Bible, so why should we regard people as being sinful for behaving naturally based on selective literalism either ?

90

Neil R,

UK 24/05/2009 10:15:59
It may be that it's political correctness that has triumphed which means homosexuality has seemingly become more acceptable not that society at large suddenly thinks it is a good idea. Just as you shouldn't assume that because we don't have overtly racist language as a nation anymore doesn't mean we agree with everything that comes from Africa. Neither should you assume that those who don't speak out against homosexuality are in favour of it, or even indifferent to it. They might just be afraid of intolerant people who can't tolerate so-called "fundamentalist" views.

In any case I doubt we as a society tolerate homosexuality to the extent that ancient Rome or Greece did where it was part of normal life among the political class and aristocracy. It is naive to think that those who wrote in the Bible against such practices were from a less enlightened age than ours or that they were less intelligent. If anything we are less liberal than the society in which Paul lived when he wrote is letters. Yet he found nothing in the scripture or teachings of Christ to support it. That, at least, should give one pause for thought.
91

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 24/05/2009 10:25:20
Growing up in the Presbyterian Church, i cannot believe this most conservative of institutions has suddenly become more progressive. This is simply survival manoevers, pure and simple. The church has no interest in what is right only what will fill their coffers every week.
92

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:27:37
Media at One, 91

How fascinating to see you object to me saying you hate whilst stubbornly standing by the numerous myths you present.
93

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:28:01
What is a church? Forget religion for a moment and forget the invisible man in the sky.
What is a church?
Would it be correct to say it's a place where people of the cloth work and earn their living? If so, it is no longer a place of god, but rather a place of business.
What would happen if the board members of Company A sat around a table and discussed the possibilty of hiring a manager who was gay? Would that be politcally correct? Would society be tolerant of company A and it's need to meet in order to find out if a gay person was worthy of a place in their company?
Of course not, so why should the church, which in effect is a business be allowed to even contemplate such an issue?
Religious tolerance is the most damaging issue facing mankind today and governments need to sort it out. Any church who meets to discuss the possibility of hiring a gay person should be shut down effective immediately - the church must fall under the same laws as all other businesses.
94

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:29:57
The Ayrshire Bigot, 95

"The Catholic Church has had more than its fair share of the latter over the years"

Yes, the bigots like to present it like that but the data says otherwise.
95

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:32:15
BOTOB - You are not making sense - To be honest I have lost interest in your debate because you are incapable of doing so.
But I am still willing to offer you a chance to redeem yourself by answering the following questions -

1. Do you believe in god?
2. Do you accept that gay people have a role to play in life and religious teachings?
3. Would you condone the killing of a non-believer as the bible suggests?
4. Would you agree to the death sentence for blasphemy?
96

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:32:34
McGinty, 96

When you say "gay" do you mean the HOMOSEXUALS?

And are you suggesting the academics want the CoS to go fornicator friendly?
97

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:33:45
Observer, 93

I know where you're coming from....but....in fairness....he has got a point!

98

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:35:08
Observer, 98

Are you suggesting the CoS should become fornication friendly?
99

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:35:25
BOTOB

Based on what we know about the RCC and their history of laws. Based on the new evidence that has just surfaced in Ireland about torture, rape, beating, sodomy and other horrors, would you say that a person who adopts a sense of disgust toward that particular organisation is being bigotted or simply being human?
100

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:39:31
Media at One, 102

All organisations seek to appoint the individual most suitable to the role.

A Swimming Teacher......guess what....I want someone that can swim!

An Upholsterer.....well...you've guessed!

Were I appointing a CoS Minister (highly unlikely) I would look for the man best qualified to lead the Christian congregation. I suspect it would not be a fornicator.





101

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:43:42
Media at One, 104:

Let's remind all - again - that you have already admitted to LYING on these pages. Recall your lies about being in denmark etc etc.

So, we KNOW you are a LIAR.

Now, you want to ask some questions of me. Fair enough - but surely it's a bit late for the fact find?

1/ We KNOW you are a LIAR.
2/ You've made a series of mythical posts about me but made no effort to withdraw or apologise.
3/ I doubt you'll accept the truth I provide anyway.

102

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:43:43
BOTOB -

Also, what I find fascinating is this -
Homosexuality is one of the issues that causes real divide within churches, yet we now know for sure that most Catholic priests are gay. We now know for sure that Catholic priests are guilty of raping young boys -It is fascinating that the RCC when hearing about a gay paediophile priest are willing to pay the damages but refuse to fire the priest, they usually re-locate them.
How ironic that the one issue that causes so much trouble is the thing that so many men of the cloth gravitate toward. Homosexuality is as much part of the church as politics is at Westminster
103

Utar Refson,

24/05/2009 10:47:58
The Kirk's decision is disappointing and sad, not only because they have chosen to reject clear Apostolic teaching but because it will damage the Kirk further and mark it for decline: I recall reading a comparison of "liberal" and "conservative" denominations and in every case, the trend of membership and attendance within "liberal" denominations was downward, whereas "conservative" denominations stayed steady or saw their numbers grow.

This is unsurprising, because if a denomination loses its distinctiveness, its distinctive message it becomes little more than a glorified social club, and there are many businesses and entities that do social clubbing much better.
104

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:48:13
Media at One, 108:

Most will be bigots like you.

Most will realise that the sexual abuse of children is endemic throughout the world and thoughout time and only bigots - like you - will dwell on one organisation and use this as a justification for his bigotry.
105

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:48:29
BOTOB -

Not that easy - Call me a LIAR, note it and write it into the journal. But once that is established let us move on to your god who HAS NOTHING to do with your judegment of me. After all, telling a child god exists is a lie so now to the questions.

1. Do you accept that homosexuals have a place in life and religious teachings?
2. Do you believe the scriptures and agree that blasphemy should be met with death?

You can begin my answering those two questions - If you can that is.
106

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:50:27
I've asked a few times....but I note many are frightened of answering.....

Are you suggesting the CoS should become fornication friendly?
107

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:51:07
BOTOB

You are openly suggesting that any person who shows contempt for paediophilia are nothing more than bigots?

108

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:53:22
Media at One, 114

I'm pleased we are able to agree that you are a LIAR. That's progress!

Now we KNOW what we're dealing with!!!

Oh, I can deal with your question, my lying fiend, but is there any point?

1/ We KNOW you are a LIAR.
2/ You've made a series of mythical posts about me but made no effort to withdraw or apologise.
3/ I doubt you'll accept the truth I provide anyway.
4/ I know you like to ask questions. But do you ANSWER questions?
109

Media at One,

24/05/2009 10:53:30
BOTOB

Explain fornication friendly - Do you mean should they hire people who abuse young children?
110

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:54:16
Media at One, 116:

my answer is still there and it's perfectly clear.
111

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:55:20
Media at One, 118:

if you dont know what fornication involves try a dictionary. Your ignorance is not my problem.
112

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 10:56:09
111 Media one

The Church of Scotland, Free Church and Presbeterians are not Catholic. The vast majority of ministers are married with kids, main line in other words.

Play groups and sunday schools are also an important factor in the Scottish Churches of all demonations, and not all priest are gay. I would not have sent my childern and grand childern to these if the minister was gay. Sorry about this. I just would not feel they were safe.

Saying that the bishop of the isles had an affair with a woman, and the priest in barra was chasing every skirt in sight including according to ledgend the policemans wife. Normal behaviour and smiles were raised even though it was wrong, can you imagine the reaction if he had been chasing the policeman?
113

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:56:47
Maid, 120

Your post is very ignorant.
114

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 10:57:37
Kenny, 122

and wanted to play with his truncheon?
115

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:04:00
Maid, 125,

OK, then justify your closing comment:

"The Catholic church is a very sick church."
116

Media at One,

24/05/2009 11:04:01
Kenny A

I have read your posts before, so I know that unlike BOTOB, you are intelligent and come across as a mature and educated person.

What I am trying to understand is this - Why should a persons sexuality cause a split in the church? If the common teaching is that god created all men, then surely he created the gay man also?
117

Media at One,

24/05/2009 11:07:53
Maid - If I understand you correctly, you are NOT saying that Catholic people are sick? You are saying that the organisation that represents them has been involved in so much horror that the only rational response you are left with is to hate them for their evils?
Any psychologist will tell you that your reaction is normal - the same way you feel about the scum who murdered Holly and Jessica, is the same way you will feel about the RCC and their glut of paediophiles and killers. But that does not make Catholic people evil!
118

The Ayrshire Bard,

24/05/2009 11:10:34
Botob. You appear to love the use of the word 'bigot', but it is you suffers from bigotry in your denial of the abuse of children by Roman Catholic priests over the years. Maybe you're a priest, who knows? You really should try and follow events around the world before making your wild accusations of bigotry. The old adage that 'there are none so blind as those who will not see' applies to you perfectly.
119

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:13:54
Ayrshire Bigot, 129:

1/ Tell me in which post # I denied the abuse of children by Priests, or

2/ are you just another cheap liar, like Media at One?
120

Mong basher,

24/05/2009 11:15:23
I am amazed that the real issue here has been hijacked by those arguning both for and against the ordination of homosexual ministers.

The article says quite clearly that the man is divorced and now in a stable gay relationship.

While interpretations of Leviticus and it's relevance to modern times may vary, and Paul and all that came after him could be questioned on that basis that he never met Jesus in the flesh, Jesus quite categorically speaks out against divorce. One of the few areas of Christianity where the edict actually comes straight from source.

So the real issue is that this man is an adulterer AND now a fornicator as he is not married to his new partner. These are not my views neccessarily, but within the terms of christianity that is what is going on.

By approving the appointment of this minister the church has opened a debate on the nature of homsexuality - nature vs nurture, as well as obedience to sripture versus obedience to the reality of ones life - scripture always seeming to come down completly on the side of the former)

So the question is not whether gay ministeres should be ordained, the question is whether humanity can be more inclusive and tolerant than religion, whether religious texts are the literal word of god or a work in progress,

AND in this case, whether the gospels are the literal truth of what Jesus said and did.

AND more importantly, whether or not a mans sins are a matter for discussion by the religious community orbetween him and God solely.

Are we to follow the edicts form on high and interpret them in a ruthless uncaring attitude (ala old testament) or are we a church of Christ, of forgiveness, inclusion, and salvation. THe one group Jesus never seemed to have any tolerance for were the professors of the law, he chose instead the company of outcasts, prostitues, tax collectors and perhaps homosexuals.
121

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:17:16
Mong, 131: excellent post - thanks!
122

Norrie G,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 11:17:56
#97: "I am also sure Mr Rennie is a man of some courage but it may have been more courageous to have sacrificed this post in order not to cause this upheaval."

Is upheaval not what the GLBT community is looking for? 'Divide and conquer' seems to be their strategy. Just look at the division, intolerance and hatred on this page from both sides.

Do you believe Mr Rennie is acting all on his own mind? Probably not. He is likely to have the full force of the GLBT lobbies behind him (no punt intended).
123

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:20:00
Oooooops....meant to say....Mong, 133:

had this fell;a been saying: I've been a fornicator, buit I'm sorry....I regret it...it wont happen again....then that'd be OK.

But, IMHO, since he's saying.....I'm a fornicator....I'm going up that Manse to fornicate fornicate and fornicate, it's kinda hard to see how he's gonna be able to fulfil a role as a CoS Minister!!!
124

Media at One,

24/05/2009 11:20:07
Is Jesus the true God? Or His father? Or the Holy Spirit? Or all three? But not only that, worshiping "imaginary" saints or relics or practicing a devotion to them is deemed "improper worship." Having visions, seeing apparitions, a layman performing priestly functions (which happens now at the church all the time since so many priests are locked up for child abuse - they need someone to hand out the communion and collect the money)Is it any wonder people form opinions that are anti RC?
125

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:21:29
136 = blind bigotry from a self confessed liar.
126

Media at One,

24/05/2009 11:22:28
Jesus was gay! So I see no reason why this story has resulted in such turmoil
127

Media at One,

24/05/2009 11:26:25
BOTOB - As we have seen from 3 out of 5 posters on this thread - You are probably a priest!
You have openly supported fiddling with kids, you have openly stated you hate homosexuals and you have openly stated that any person who judges a known paediophile priest is a bigot - I think we have all heard enough from you - you're a simplistic fool who cannot find it within to condemn kiddy fiddlers.
128

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:31:43
Maid, 132:

Errr...right...The Pope knew and was movin Priests around to cover it up.

1/ Which Pope was this?
2/ When?
3/ Which priests were involved?
4/ Which countries?
5/ Are you able to substantiate your incredible claims?
6/ Why was it not reported on the BBC?
7/ Why was it not reported in ANY credible UK newspaper?
129

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:32:26
Media at One, 140: know liar adding to the myths!! LOL!!
130

FTH22inarow,

24/05/2009 11:35:12
You might as well believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden than believe this god guff.As someone else said its a medieval mindset that we should have dumped centuries ago. Its designed to supress the masses and independant thought, with the promise of a good afterlife if your a good little boy/girl and stay in your place. I for one don't need any religious zealot telling me what is right from wrong.
131

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:35:54
Maid, 139

Your myth:

My problem with some Catholics are that they put there heads in the sand and just do not believe that there priests and nuns could do such thing

Reality:

I have yet to meet a Catholic with this level of denial. The Catholic community universally accepts that this happened and is deeply disappointed with the response of the Church.
132

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 11:36:10
The people who speak up for the poofs are most likely shirt-lifters themselves - ye gods if they had their way not only would it be legal - it would be compulsory.
We get enough indoctrination in our schools without it filtering into the church too.
133

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:36:34
FTH, 144: it's not mandatory. Go away.
134

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:37:30
Maid, 143: Yep, I can see that you and the site liar are like minded!
135

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 11:40:11
BOTOB,
I don’t suppose I’ll ever ‘correspond’ with you and your ilk again.
I have just come back from a brilliant dinner. Going back shortly for the Drambuie, cheese and after dinner mints. This forum is all somewhat a bit of a shambles - the main issue NEVER ANSWERED:
Is the Bible true and therefore should homosexuals be stoned to death?

If one actually reads and studies the Bible - the logical and intelligent say “good grief - how can anyone believe that? -- It’s wicked cruel and nonsensical.

Biblical believers simply ignore all factual discussion, they WANT to believe in a dictatorial supreme spirit - haunting their every waking (and sleeping) actions and thoughts - ready to punish them for oh! lots of little things -eating fruit - having sexy thoughts, being not sure which God is the right one.

Look please!! read and STUDY the Bible (few Scottish Christians do - especially the Orange Lodge and the Catholic fanatics). It’s simple A VERY EVIL BOOK and I’m not a bad person for asking you to seek this out for yourselves. Love life, love your families, love nature - don’t live in fear of a cruel sadistic god.
136

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:40:56
Ayrshire Bigot????

Yoooo hooo?

At 129 you made some claims?:

1/ Tell me in which post # I denied the abuse of children by Priests, or

2/ are you just another cheap liar, like Media at One?


Does you silence confirm that Option 2 prevails?

You are a cheap liar....just like Media at One and the Maid from Kent?
137

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:44:42
Robbie 2, 150

I'm amazed you think anyone is remotely interested in your eating and drinking habits.

I'm amazed too that you seem to think you have some mandate to determine some universal response for the "logical and intelligent" perspective of the Bible.

You really ARE a strange fella - confirming my opening response to you was absolutely right!!!
138

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:46:30
Maid, 141:

is that your kinda quaint and charming way of admitting you CANNOT answer the questions I asked?

Is it because you were lying?

Like Media at One?

And Ayrshire Bigot?

Bit of a theme emerging.......
139

Shape to Shoot,

24/05/2009 11:57:12
326 v 267....there's still a whopping big minority there who don't like the thought of their minister getting banged from the back by that bloke he's seen out for dinner with now and again.

Actually, isn't sodomy the key issue...not all gay men go in for it...aren't the flock entitled to know if there is bum-penetration going on ? If not, mabey some of the opponents might be able to come to terms with things...they might find themselves, less distracted when speaking to him about the funeral/wedding/christening arrangements.

Perhaps there could be a compromise...openly gay ministers are allowed provided they take a vow not to do the in and out thingy.
140

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 11:59:33
StS, 154: no going up the brown tunnel?
141

Shape to Shoot,

24/05/2009 12:07:11
155

My point exactly BOTOB...if we are to have ministers of ruddy complexion, we want to know that it arises from good wholsome activity.
142

Richard Lionheart,

24/05/2009 12:09:02
so that is a Gay minister appointed at "queens" cross then!
143

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:14:30
StS, 156:

so, the kitchen table will be used only for food before Sunday Service?
144

WL,

Livingston 24/05/2009 12:15:59
So wer now have:
- Church of Scotland
- Free Church of Scotland
- Gay Church of Scotland
What next?
145

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:17:19
StS, 156:

if he's a football man, and a Dundee Utd supporter, perhaps he'll like Goodwillie?
146

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 12:18:36
152 Botob: Robbie 2, 150
“I'm amazed you think anyone is remotely interested in your eating and drinking habits.
I'm amazed too that you seem to think you have some mandate to determine some universal response for the "logical and intelligent" perspective of the Bible.
You really ARE a strange fella - confirming my opening response to you was absolutely right!!!

Botob: do you ALWAYS make your replies personal insults?
Do you EVER reply to a debateable point (ie., the Bible and its cruelty)
Botob - sadly you are constructing a weird picture (easy done for a Biblical believer) of this old man who has only reluctantly returned to these forums because certain posters use the Bible as an authoritative source for decrying homosexuals.

I simply observe, if you use your Bible as an such an ‘authoritative’ source - then not only is homosexuality repugnant in the eyes of you merciful god d but so are all the other ‘sins’ mention before (please check #62 Robbie) and never addressed by you. Lots of love Robbie.
Honestly Botob there are a lot more important issues in all our lives than this one.
Canada and Fife Runner never came back - perhaps there dusting off their Bibles.
Please try not to pre-judge people or take a dislike because they’ve studied more than you and have different opinions.
Remember:” We’re all ignorant but on different subjects” Mark Twain
147

Media at One,

24/05/2009 12:21:40
FACT = The Kirk has elected a gay minister!
All those in favour, stay!
All those opposed, take the nearest door and shut it behind you.

I applaud the church for closing its doors on its bigot members - no more bigots means progress so well done to the church. Maybe other churches can learn a thing or two from the Kirk -
I am not a believer but I respect a persons right to believe and at least the Kirk has made a statement and said NO TO BIGOTTED behaviour - well done to them for embracing homosexuality
148

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:22:23
Robbie 2, 161:

I reserve my insults for those who deserve them, Robbie 2.

I see you too have resorted to sharing with us the output of your vivid imagination.
149

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:26:07
Isnt it strange?

I've asked a few times....but no takers....

Are some here advocating a fornication friendly CoS?
150

Media at One,

24/05/2009 12:27:06
Robbie -
When it comes to people like BOTOB you need to visualise a debate.
Imagine him on a podium vs yourself for instance.
You comment that the bible speaks of death to those who commit blasphemy and ask him if he agrees with the scripture.
His response - You're a bigot and you cannot be taken seriously.
When you are dealing with a person who is mentally crippled, you cannot expect reasonable debate.
He is a priest with a chip on his shoulder, perhaps he was arrested once upon a time for fiddling, perhaps he wasnt, but he has made it clear that in his eyes, you're a bigot if you see wrong in a priest who fiddles with kids - now you know what you are dealing with, you can distance yourself from it.
151

Media at One,

24/05/2009 12:28:55
The Kirk has spoken and THEY ARE SHOUTING IT FROM THE HILLTOPS - HOMOSEXUALITY IS ACCEPTABLE!
Well done to them for embracing progress.
152

Andrieu,

UK 24/05/2009 12:35:23
To believer's: If God created man, then he created them with their sexual orientation. So if you disagree with homosexuality, you disagree with God's decision making process. Perhaps you should take up the issue with God in prayer...lord knows, CEO of Earth Inc is renowned for his responsiveness.
153

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:38:07
Andrieu, 169:

I have no problem with a man *being* homosexual.

I just thought the CoS took a dim view of fornicators.

Still, maybe the Embra Presbyterians have gone a bit la di da moderne chic and are gonna be fornicator friendly!
154

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:39:21
Whilst I think the male homosexual act is absolutely vile, I'm still undecided about the female homosexual act, and might need to watch a few more videos to finally decide.
155

Media at One,

24/05/2009 12:40:42
Liebourgate

You should read some of his posts - He thinks that opposing a priest who fiddles with kids is bigotry. In other words, how dare you point a finger at a paediophile priest and show contempt for the church. If it wasnt so serious it would funny!
156

Shape to Shoot,

24/05/2009 12:40:50
anyone heard the matheson's smoked sausage adverts on the radio ?....could we now have a minister 'phoning in to say where he likes to stick his ?
157

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 12:43:27
Media 1, wrote a long and fairly complementary post to a couple of your earlier posts but you blew it with 128.

131 was excellent even though I did not agree with it all.

And back to you media 1, the churches have split before on, in my eyes minor issues, look at the Continuing for example. The majority of members are against gay ministers, now I am not berserkly fundamelist and accept woman ministers happily (ish) but this is a step to far. There must be other churches Mr Rennie can practice in without this disruption. It is a matter of choice, for example I could not go into a gay bar and feel relaxed, how should members of long standing and traditional views have this unpleasant prospect forced on them by a very small minority. Live and let live but do not corrupt or impose on those who if not 100% contenct with the church are happy with the status quo.

The post I tried to send earlier was a lot better written and though out but it seems there is a time ban on typing on the Scotsman site.

158

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 12:43:36
Media 172 = liar.
159

Andrieu,

UK 24/05/2009 12:51:01
BOTOB 171: Quite, but then again the CoS surely exists, as do all churches, as a place where like minded believers come to be comforted and strenghtened in their faith. My faith in the Lord (Darth Vader) is unaffected by any physical or worldly act. The church needs to

A) Change its mandate. It can no longer be a place for commandments, interference with society and politics or as an institution of guilt. It must exist only as a house for those of faith. Science has eroded any hold the bible once had over people, so all that is left is blind faith.

B) Take itself much less seriously. Life is for living, in all its pleasure, and all its pain. The church should encourage people to live freely and without fear of thunder bolt.
160

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 12:52:30
If gay couples could marry then they wouldn't be fornicators would they ?

Problem sorted.
161

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 12:53:08
144

Are you serious, how can there not be a God, its not medieval, its since the dawn of time people have believed, They in many cases believed in the wrong Gods but knew there was a God. There cannot be a serious arguement against this, there was a creator or how come we are here.

Botob, trust me CoS members are fornicators, most ministers are married, to woman.
162

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 12:53:48
173 That's very juvenile. Most little boys have grown out of gay jokes by the time they leave Primary school.
163

Media at One,

24/05/2009 12:54:32
Kenny A

I can understand when you say that you could not go into a gay bar and relax, but I can assure that if you had a friend who was gay and he took you to such a bar, you would feel completely at ease.
I also understand that tradition is important but times change. Remember what used to happen to a person who protested against the Catholic Church? Remember how dangerous and blasphemous it was to turn your back on the catholic church in search of a more liberal approach to god? Well maybe this step by the Kirk is a step in the right direction. His sexuality is really not an issue, at least I dont see it that way - but then again, I have known gay people for many years so I am at ease with homosexuality.
164

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 24/05/2009 12:54:34
Mem in skirts, dresses and silly hats fussing about nothing as usual.
165

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 12:54:47
166 Media at One
Thanks I have given-in on getting any sort of sensible reply.
All I get is that BOTOB 'knows' my sort.
Like most Bible believers, BOTOB, will not debate with those of us who 'lost' our faith because we actually studied the Bible. I will at any time challenge any religious adherent to debate the truth of the Bible. They must not however resort to insulting ad hominem attacks - but unfortunately they always do. Religion has historically produced a violent reaction to against anyone who has logical, intelligent doubts against it. Does BOTOB think that we should resume burning old ladies as witches (more popular AFTER the Reformation).

Bible believers are ignorant of the Bible and seem to think those who have studied it and found it flawed are somehow “a sort’ as BOTOB describes not worthy of polite conversation.
Anyway from this side of the World - goodnight.
Dave Allen would have said “may your god go with you” but don’t play with yourself because He or his angels (the one with the very big wings) are watching you - even in your bed. And it’s all getting written down - so beware.
166

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 12:56:20
178 there are quite a few serious arguments against the existence of God actually, but that is not the point.

The point is do people's personal, subjective, and selectively literalist interpretations of the Bible entitle them to try and block the Queens X congreagation's choice of Minister.

I - and the Kirk - say no.
167

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 12:57:38
176

Correct, the Churches are for like minded believers so why put a minister against the majority in a church, and why change its mandate, plenty other options out there without upsetting the believers.

As for your Lord he was the Green Cross Code man, so cant be all bad, pity about his death star.
168

The Ayrshire Bard,

24/05/2009 12:59:27
Botob. Before making the claim that you never denied the abuse of children by your fellow priests, read your own post, #103, where you tell us that the data tells a different story.
Could I also suggest that you change your title to Haemorrhoids on Legs' as you most definitely one big pain in the a**e.
169

Media at One,

24/05/2009 13:01:38
Kenny A

On the debate about "god must exist" or why would be here.
I suppose we could have been cloned by a more sophisticated race who up and left when they were done here. After all, we can clone in 2009 so by the time 2109 arrives, cloning will be a normal part of everyday life. It will be possible for Earthlings to travel to other planets and clone humans, whether we do it is up for question, but it will be possible and may already have happened.
Of course that would mean that those people were created by a higher intelligence either in the human form or by a more sophisticated godly like being.
But it can never end, who made god and who made that god and who made that god etc - if there is only one god, then it must also be possible that there was only one big bang - It is all a much of a muchness and in the end it really doesnt matter.
170

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 13:07:11
183 Observer

Cant argue against the fact there are many arguements against the existance of God, but they do not cut the Ice with me. I have looked at this many times but tend in times of strain to cry out to God for help and mercy, so do many unbelievers. On a subcontious level I feel we all know there is a God even though we may not readily accept this.

For myself I have no doubts, even though I do disagree with many interpretations of matters by the Church.

The Phrase "The Lord my God", springs to mind, and I feel that even if someone could prove beyond doubt that there was no Lord I would still believe. It is what I am, I would know that this person with his proof was wrong.

Beliefs and views change with time, but the only certainty is there is a God.
171

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 24/05/2009 13:07:15
Just wake up. Jesus never existed. The whole lot is just a money-making a joke. You might as well believe in some nut job finding a pile of gold plates in his back garden.
172

Media at One,

24/05/2009 13:20:55
Kenny A

I look at differently, but I respect your views.
In my world, there is no god.
I have accepted that there is no life after death and I am happy with that. Human greed tells me I should hope for a god because it means I get more life after life, but that is typical of humans, give us two weeks holiday we want 3.
I believe that when its over its over so it is important to love and do what you can for your family and friends whilst alive. You say that even non believers cry out to god for help, well I dont! Besides he wouldnt answer anyway - If god is there, believers would be going in their droves to be with him, but they arent, death is their last resort. In other words the believer like the athiest will do whatever they can to avoid death - because subconciously even the believer knows they are probably wrong.
173

Pastor Bill Blair,

24/05/2009 13:21:39
Looking at all these comments, those who do not live by the Bible seem to use it so much when trying to prove a point, yet either miss qoute or twist to suit their own agenda.I am not homophobic and I always seem to chuckle at that word used for those whe are against homosexuality, I have no fear of homosexuals.
The only sad part of all this is that the day the homosexual came out of the closet and left it empty was the day the Christian saw an empty closet and made it home, now it is time for the Christian to vacate the closet and stand up for the word of God. we are all born with sin within us I do not hate the homosexual but I do their sin.
If this is the way that the Church of Scotland is going then as Christ said to those who are believers of Him " come out from among them and be ye seperate"
Times are changing but we do not have to change with the times
174

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 13:25:59
Media one

Gut feeling we were not cloned by aliens, could be wrong, but here is something to tickle the old brain cells.

I am a believer in the creator our Lord, he made man out of dust and that is the state we will all return to.

Now it also in The Book that God created man and then on the seventh day he rested.

It also stated man was created in Gods image.

I see no contradictions between the theories of Darwin and Wallace, although many in the Church with limited scientific knowledge can.

From dust we came as stars blew up creating the heavy elements of which we are partly composed along with a fair bit of molecules mainly water. To dust we will return, in about 5 billionish years the sun will fry the Earth and seriously make matters interesting.

How long is Gods day, after all he is immortal and eternal. Is it a lifetime for a midge of 24 hours or the length of time of creation, we cannot say how long Gods day is.

To finish none of us look the same, even twins are different, so does this not prove that he is the God of all.

But media 1 it does matter to me and many others.

188 some people do find gold plates in their garden especialy after a good session at some officers messes.

175

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:26:39
Ayrshire Bigot, 185;

Yep, there's NO EVIDENCE that the Catholic Church has any more than its fair share of paedos. I am absolutely right.

Now you made an entirely different claim - and you have been shown as a LIAR.
176

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 13:28:53
187 Your belief in God is personal, which is fine I respect that.

Where I part company with a lot of people on this thread 'though is where they seem to think that they can impose their personal and subjective opinions (interpretations of a selectively literalist nature)on other people, ie the congregation of Queens X, who no doubt have their own relationship with their own God, and have chosen to believe other than their critics.

Is your God wiser then their God - and if so how do you know ?

177

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:29:34
Robbie 2, 182:

Yet more PROOF I had you absolutelty right first time!!!

You aint debating anything with me.

You're having a discussion with a mythical character you've made up.

#182 proves it. The views you assert are mine....are not.
178

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:30:19
Observer, 193

Do you see this as an opportunity for the Kirk to become fornication friendly?
179

Media at One,

24/05/2009 13:31:13
Kenny A

A nice analogy, dust is to dust and all that - But it does not prove that a god exists! It only proves that the world will end and then a few billion light years later another collision of atomic energy will start the whole process over again!
Perhaps god is just an atom -
And the good thing about cloning is that WE CAN create man in our own image. And we can fly our fiery chariots in and out of the sky.
180

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 13:38:57
195 It has already coped with divorce (which is surely far more difficult to reconcile with the Gospels) so why not acknowledge stable gay relationships do not involve fornication.
181

Media at One,

24/05/2009 13:39:28
I also supppose that the fact that there are so many gods is proof that there are none - The god of thunder, the god of water, the god of wind, the god of fire, the god of sun, the god of the moon, the god of love, the god of ice, the god of war, Allah, god, buddha, Krishna and all the prophets Jesus and Muhammad - The pope, the Immans, the Archbishops, the Ministers, Mecca, the Vatican, the churches, the Synagogues, the Mosques - And of course the flock!
A series of monologues and performances, teachings and inner needs, fear and failure drives people to worship! On their knees in the most submissive position cultivating and worshipping idols or invisible deities and embracing symbols - It is not so much weird, but rather disturbing that so many gods and prophets and worshippers cannot agree to one god, one book and one belief - If only their gods would assist them, help them and show them the way as opposed to deserting them day after day for a billion years -
182

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:45:07
Media at One, 198

Who, or what is your god?
183

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:46:53
Oberver, 197

because stable homosexual relationships DO involve fornication!
184

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:47:50
Oooooooops...should have said.....IF the man is a homosexual and is not doing the brownie thang then there is no problemo!
185

Media at One,

24/05/2009 13:48:45
I am a non believer and have never seen god, my best friend is a christian and he has never seen god - Together we share different views, but we are united in our absolute isolation from god.
186

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 24/05/2009 13:50:39
Botob and all other cowardly chancers. Grow up and stop being so bleeding cheeky, flippant and derogatory. Others stop rising to the bait. These things matter to some people. It might not bother you, but for some the church is as important as family, their work or their community. Even for nonbelievers and for all religion's flaws, Scotland has been shaped by religion, has religious traditions going back over a thousand years and the church is one of the major institutions of Scottish life as much as football, weaving, fishing, engineering, Rabbie Burns or whatever. You wouldn't survive long in a pub talking about religion, politics or football in that tone, so screw the nut and give some more sensible comments that you're more than capable of.
187

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:51:07
Media 202: I dont think you understand the question.

I'm not asking about MY God.

Or yer pal's God.

I'm asking: who or what is YOUR god?
188

warner,

westminster 24/05/2009 13:53:18
Please let's have a little clarity here.
While we dance around this maypole with terms like 'love','partner' and dress it up with made up faux latin,like 'homophobia'(?homophilia')we'll have endless,pointless debate like this.
The argument is about 'sodomy',no?
Have at it ! ?For or against
189

J F M ,

Glasgow Scotland 24/05/2009 13:55:22
Sorry an awful lot of people on here claiming to be Christians and are NOT! a real Christian would be forgiving and tolerant.
Let me ask how many do the following on a Sunday: shave, cook, cut the grass, read anything other than the bible, play cards or games, wash your hair, wash your car, cut your nails, watch T.V, listen to radio the list goes on. The Bible states "...and on the seventh day He rested."
Therefore I think we should be keeping our mouths shut on this Minister's sexuality and lifestyle choices, "let he who is without sin...."
190

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 13:56:52
J F M, 206

are YOU advocating the Kirk becoming fornication friendly?

PS: I havent claimed to be a Christian!!!
191

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 14:01:14
200 So you are seriously suggesting that this entire debate revolves around whether a homosexual couple indulge in penetrative sex. If they don't it's cool, if they do it's a sin.

I have to say that seems fairly incredible to me. I would have thought issues like poverty, preventable disease, famine, stuff like that would matter more to God than what you do with your personal bits.
192

Media at One,

24/05/2009 14:13:03
I am an athiest and I do not believe in the after life, my friend is a christian and he does - We share different beliefs, but we are united in our challenge to avoid death.
193

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 14:14:01
Observer, 208

Yep, all those things are vitally important, and have no bearing whatsoever on THIS debate.

IMHO this is a debate about the CoS attitude towards fornication. I'm no theologian but I reckon Christian teaching on the topic is quite clear: it's a big no no.....whether it involves a fella pokin the sweet pink thang of a cutie or the hairy brownie of another fella.

Were this Minister to say he's homosexually inclined I'm sure there'd be no issue. But as he's sayin he's a homosexual and intends to go up to the Manse to fornicate fornicate and fornicate I think it's a no brainer for the God fearing Elders.
194

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 14:14:59
Media at One, 209:

What do you believe in?
195

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 14:25:19
Some good comments here, would like to deal with them all, no time off to church strangly, but to media 1 seeing we have been posting, we all know the air and wind exists, we cannot see it but we require air for breth and life, and see the power of the wind when it blows, even though we cannot see the wind only what it does.

By people denaying God because they can not see him or touch him does that mean he does not exist.

Sometimes when you streach out your hand you will not feel the wind, sometimes it will rip you to pieces. It is there so is the Lord. If anyone calls the wind at will I doubt it will answer on the spot but it will arrive in due course, same as the Lord.
196

Media at One,

24/05/2009 14:29:27
Kenny A - By people denaying God because they can not see him or touch him does that mean he does not exist

Yes absolutely!
197

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 14:31:30
Media at One, 213:

What do you believe in?
198

J F M ,

Glasgow, Scotland 24/05/2009 14:32:41
BOTOB 207
I didn't single anyone out because I knew many different beliefs would be posting comments.
I didn't mention fornication.
199

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 14:34:10
J F M, 215;

are YOU advocating the Kirk becoming fornication friendly?
200

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 14:50:22
Media at One:

What do you believe in?

Dont you belierve in anything?

Do you exist only to scoff the views of others?
201

Patrick from Hamilton,

Hamilton 24/05/2009 14:53:55
J F M , 206

A real Christian would try to show compassion and love for the sinner , while detesting the sin .

This decision by the General Assembly seems to many believers to say that sin is not sin and that Holy Scripture is not Holy Scripture .

On that level it is about the absolute fundamentals of Christianity .

When Jesus spared the woman caught in adultery he said to her "Go and sin no more".

The current General Assemby seem to have edited that to " Go and commit adultery as much as you like . It's cool . By the way you're a great role-model for Christians . Why not become a minister and move your fancy-man into the manse with you?"

I'm sorry if secularists find this intolerant . I try to be very intolerant of sin , especially (hopefully) my own .
202

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24/05/2009 14:59:47
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203

,

24/05/2009 15:06:17
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,

24/05/2009 15:07:59
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205

Andrieu,

UK 24/05/2009 15:10:31
To Kenny A (and like minded)

You assert that the church should not upset its congregation of believers. However, there is only one central item of belief in Christianity that cannot be disproved: the existence of a higher being. So, until the Church comes out and says "God doesn't exist", then I really fail to see how you can upset a congregation. If, however, you mean that it would upset their own prejudices, then yes, you are right. But I really don't think Christians, or anyone else, has the right to have their prejudices protected in the name of faith.
206

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 15:32:50
Black Douglas, 219:

I'm sure you're well versed on the "testimony" of Embra wh0res.
207

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 15:34:56
Andrieu, 222

Using that logic can we take it that you'd also support a Minister who regularly participated in beastiality?
208

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 15:36:02
Black Douglas, 219,220, 221

who, or what is your god?
209

Andrieu,

UK 24/05/2009 15:45:02
Botob 224:

No, and nicely for me, you highlight my very point (Unwittingly, I presume). You see, bestiality isn't a prejudice, it's a law that has come as a result of society's attitudes. Queerness, however, is not criminal, and as a results of society's changing attitudes over the past few decades, we now know that it is just another physiological trait, like the colour of your eyes, or the length of your fingers.

Bestiality (or any other extreme example you want to give to attempt to make a point) is quite different: it involves a choice .So, in the interest of helping your grey matter, I'll make the point again:

Opposition to homosexuality is based on a persons own fear and prejudice. Not on any law. And certainly not on God's wishes, for he created us in his image. The Church SHOULD have absolutely no interest in the matter whatsoever.

210

Patrick from Hamilton,

Hamilton 24/05/2009 15:50:04
220 The Black Douglas

You are right on one thing , I am a naive infant in moral and spiritual terms , as are we all .

What seems to divide your attitude from mine is that I hope to follow the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ , while you seem to be more in line with the beliefs of Diogenes the Cynic .

I do not mean that to be an insult , merely an observation . There are far too many insults being thrown around in this thread .

In answer to your question I believe I mentioned Holy Scripture and the forgiveness of our sins upon repentance as being fundamental to Christianity . No Christian can condone sin , but we know the difficult path to forgiveness . This decision seems to me to do just that , while denying that repentance is necessary .

We are not born into sin - we do plenty of it as we go along , though . I think you'll be thinking about the R.C. doctrine of Original Sin . The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian and Reformed . We don't do that .

This is , of course , a disagreement amongst Christians . It is not one that a militant non-believer can add much to constructively . That'll be why your posts sound aggressive and negative to me , while mine probably sound that way to you .
211

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24/05/2009 16:17:13
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212

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 16:26:45
Perish the day when instead of a sign outside a church reads Church of Scotland or whatever - it reads 'Poofs R Us'
213

Shape to Shoot,

24/05/2009 16:28:26
The minister has been hurt by some of the reaction to his appointment, but he shouldn't bend over for the sake of a rabble, what what !

214

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 16:30:24
The Black Douglas, 228

Tell us more about this "supreme power that energises the universe"
215

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 16:32:26
#230 He should be used to pain by now!
216

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 16:36:27
Andrieu, 226

Good answer - thanks.

If you've read my posts you'll understand that I'm not against a man *being* homosexual.

My question here is about the CoS attitude to fornication. When a man says I want to be a Minister and I'm going to that Manse to fornicate fornicate and fornicate then I suspect the God fearing Church will see his position as untenable.
217

Cousin,

Alabama 24/05/2009 16:51:41
This would be funny if it weren't so very sad. I had to write about it on my Blog.

freedommia.blogspot.com
218

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 16:55:18
222 Andr Dont get me wrong on this, I can see what you are driving at, but there are more, openminded, tolerant, misguided take your pick than the followeres of the good old CoS.

I have no problem with gays being Christian, none at all. What is my issue is when this and other matters seem to be imposed on people who are the majority. I do not think this is correct.

Now while I would not go to a gay church if I could help it, I would go if I felt the need and there was no other option, although it would be an incredibly quick visit. I am not condeming Mr Rennie for his lifestyle because it is totaly alien and abhorant to me. Strong words but the truth. It is however offensive and un-natural to many. I also believe much stronger terms are being used in the North and West.

The congration and the church you attend is influanced by many factors, amongst which are high on the list upbrining and personal belief.

The Kirk, Wee Free and Pesebeterians represent the strongly held beliefs of their congregations, which are old testiment in many ways, and that trust me this is important in understanding us even though we follow the saviour. It is their choice which they attend. As can be seen when not happy they go elsewhere to set up their own churches following their particular standards, ex, CoS, breaking to form the Free CoS, then them breaking to form the Free Presbeterian, the latest the Free Church Continuing.

I do not know what the next breakaway would be called but they would have adherents.

You must accept that a church with deeply held beliefs, which the majority share should not be subjugated to the will, of bluntly a tiny minority.

Now here is one for you all, I would not complain about a gay attending the Church, but I think it is very, very wrong in the Church for one to be a minister. It goes against the grain of many big style.ieu

219

Media at One,

24/05/2009 17:02:39
Homosexuals are like all people, products of an unavoidable gaseous exchange resulting in life or they are a product of divine creation - it is one or the other!
Which do you choose?
220

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 17:13:21
Hmm!!! to the comment from the Black Douglas, I think, many things are formed from sand that are strong and enduring, sandstone, glass and a certain type of body armour no less, it only needs another ingrediant or two to make it strong, time, heat and the chemical CENSORDED for example. The church is the same. The ingrediant is belief.

230 He should be fairly safe, most are like alongs the line of raving hetros, not Heathrows, a jumbo heading in that direction would scare even a fervid nymphomanic rabbit into taking up an armour plated chastity belt made probably of some substance involving sand.
221

Media at One,

24/05/2009 17:19:07
I have a homosexual friend who is convinced Jesus was gay - He reckons its a no brainer, the 12 men at his side, the meek and mild character - Gaydar suggests that Jesus probably was gay and that is a really big deal because for so long people have been persecuting homosexuals when all along they should have been rejoicing in their name.
222

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 17:24:53
Media, 236:

What's your view?
223

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 17:26:08
Media, 238:

Why?
224

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks Californiacation 24/05/2009 17:30:54
Firstly they have no right to be called GAY, the word has its-self been corrupted just as they have. They are homosexuals, these are men who have sex with other men, think about it? is this LOVE? George Cowie states, "Are we to tell people that because of the way God made you, you must live alone and not have a life's companion? This is ridiculous, I an so sad to see this type of moral cancer catching hold in my beloved Scotland. There was a time when I believed Sodom and Gomorrah was just a fantasy tale!
225

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 17:32:57
238 Media 1. Sorry about this a quick no brainer, in the Book, it says go forth, etc, you know it.

Now i dont persectue homosexuals, never bashed one, detest their practices but was on good terms with one on a work basis. He was a closet but when he came out I still regarded him well as he was decent individual. I never shared a bottle of whiskey from the neck with him again though.

I am afraid your chum is very wrong. Was it a joke calling him Gaydar?
226

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 17:51:18
#238 Those who advocate that Jesus was a poof do so to convince themselves and others that it's acceptable.
In the forces you are surrounded by other men but non that I knew were poofs - in fact you could be thrown out for it, rightly so!
It's a disgusting practice which I find abhorent and I'm fed up with it being rammed down my throat (metaphorically speaking!). Maybe some are born that way but there are the majority to whom it's a lifestyle and who try to encourage others for their own ends.
227

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:00:01
Ewan Oosami

Jesus roamed the deserts with 12 men, not 12 women!
Anyway, if your god exists he created the homosexual - which explains why is son was lord of the gays hahaha
228

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 18:14:54
#244 what a pathetic post - what makes you think I have a god? there's no religion which is based on fact. I don't really care if Jesus was a poof it's a matter of imbuggerance to me, If he was then that's no excuse for anyone else to be one. I also don't care if he roamed the desert with 12 men (that doesn't make him a poof) or 12 sheep.
As I said in my first post those who speak up for the poofs are no doubt shirt-lifters themselves - I rest my case!
229

Kenny A,

24/05/2009 18:21:29
Media 1, You were doing so well today until your response to Ewan at 243. Bluntly I share his views, I am an ex soldier from the old days and a Wee Free sometimes Church of Scotland, depending where I am. Jesus tended to roam with fishermen and the odd tax collector by the way.People not renowned for desert wanderings.

Now he went into the wilderness for 40 days on his tod. I do not think the apostles were by his side, or throwing sand coated herrings at him, he was after all fasting, (probably starving after 40 days), of sand and temptation.

Ewan's views sum's up a great deal of many of us, We are men and believers, Christians in my case so I can forgive, killers and savers of men woman and childern.
230

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:25:34
Ewan Oosami

You do know that science has proved straight men who are at ease with homosexuality are in control of their sexuality, whereas straight men who have a problem with homosexuality are not sure of the sexuality - on the surface you may fully believe you are straight, but your total hatred for gay men means subconsciously you are not in total control and it scares the cr#pp out of you -
Dont worry, I know plenty of gay people and they are all prefectly normal people
231

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 24/05/2009 18:29:44
247
Media at One,
So does this mean you could be a tourd burglar and not know it!
232

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 18:29:54



Does anyone know if Newcastle went down today??






233

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:31:47
Kenny A - I need to defend all human beings, homosexuals were made by god - at least if your a believer that must be the belief -
Funny how people who believe in god are the ones who shun his children -
234

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:32:49
It means that I am more moral than your god
235

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 18:37:35
#247 I am in absolute control , the fact that you know so many gay people speaks volumes - the fact that you think they are normal says it all. Science cannot prove anything of the sort but you'd know that if your head wasn't so far up your backside.

#246 Kenny, thanks for your support
236

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 18:39:27
#250
Homosexuals made by god? absolute bolax!
237

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:42:24
Ewan Oosami

Are you really in conrol? are you sure?
You are afraid, that is obvious!
Anyway, the one thing we are forgetting is the Kirk has spoken and gay ministers are allowed -
238

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:43:53
Ewan #253

I agree, I dont believe in god so I must also say that god didnt make them - but if you believe in god then you need to accept that god made gay people.
239

Ewan Oosami,

24/05/2009 18:46:18
The kirk can do what it likes I wouldn't be going there anyway - I might meet the likes of you.
FYI I'm not afraid of anything or anyone - what I am scared of is this homosexuality transitioning from being illegal to being compulsory.
I'm off to the pub - cheerio my friendly sausage jockey
240

,

24/05/2009 18:53:06
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241

greenhill,

24/05/2009 18:53:58
God hates practicing gays .That is clear to anyone who reads the epistemological gold standard of Christianity: The Bible.

If you are a practicing gay you should stay away from Christianity. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.
242

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:54:17
Mrs Oosami

Will you be allowed in the pub?
You're on your way to a wine bar - You know you're going to look at the guy next to you when you go for a pee - You know it and we know it!
You wont find me at a church, god is a non entity so no point in praising the vastness of invisibilty.
243

Media at One,

24/05/2009 18:56:11
greenhill -

Would it not mean that god is a hypocrite? I mean why would you make a gay person and then deny them a place in your heaven? Seems that system is flawed, why dont I find that surprising!
244

Mèths,

24/05/2009 19:00:42
258

Do you hear voices?
245

greenhill,

24/05/2009 19:01:53
I did not write the bible. Accoriding to Christianity it was written by those whose pens were guided by the omniscient creator of the Universe.

Slam dunk:The christian God hates gays.

246

Media at One,

24/05/2009 19:02:36
We are getting close to establishing there are TWO god's - one that makes straight people and one that makes gay people - wow, religon never ceases to amaze me.
247

Mèths,

24/05/2009 19:03:43
Ewan Oosami

"As I said in my first post those who speak up for the poofs are no doubt shirt-lifters themselves - I rest my case!"

Methinks you protesteth too much. Anything to hide Ewan Ooh Sammy?

248

Mèths,

24/05/2009 19:04:42
Media

Two Gods - only two? The are hundreds of the critters.
249

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 24/05/2009 19:06:57
249
eDUCATIon,
Does anyone know if Newcastle went down today??

Yes! I know.
250

Mèths,

24/05/2009 19:10:25
Sorry but yes. Didn't you watch it?

If you go to http://myp2p.eu/index.php?part=home

There are HUNDREDS of live sports on. It's also free.

ps - Ayr beat Airdrie so Ayr go up.
251

,

24/05/2009 19:11:46
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252

Shape to Shoot,

24/05/2009 19:12:23
Some might see Mr Rennie as the thin end of the wedge...he dresses and behaves conservatively, relatively speaking.

What happens when some really GTFOOH camp bloke comes along, with his pet miniature poodles bedecked in pink sequin covered doggie coats. His lover runs the local beauty parlour, which he's never out of , getting , ahem, facials and what not. Open the door to Mr Rennie, open the door to Bruno !!!! Should be fun!!
253

James (1),

24/05/2009 19:15:16
"In a broad and national church there is more than enough room for us all."
They had a closet and now they want a room!

Good to see the Church is following the modern way and giving in.
254

Mèths,

24/05/2009 19:19:25
Shape to Shoot

Are you applying for the job then?
255

J F M ,

Glasgow Scotland 24/05/2009 20:06:18
BOTOB: The only person on here who has a fixation with fornication is you the rest of us are educated enough to know what it is. I don't agree with it but I have no right to ram my beliefs down anybody's throat.
256

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 20:25:14
267

Thanks Meths....i'll whack that in my favourites and saw the score on Sky Sports.com now.
257

The Angel Gabriel,

The United States 24/05/2009 20:26:15
"Scripture does not address homosexuality, much less condemn it."

Wrongo.

Romans 1:26-27
Leviticus 20:13

Also, the term "sodomy" comes from the city of Sodom, which was destroyed by God's wrath for its wickedness.


"Are we to tell people that because of the way God made you, you must live alone and not have a life's companion? "

Note that God condemns these atrocities in the book of Leviticus. Does God create a man into this destruction?Indeed, it seems even the APA is rejecting the possibility of a gay gene.

http://www.alainsnewsletter.com/read/220/gay-politics/apa-gay-gene-claim-suddenly-vanishes/

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=528376

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/fischer/090516

And for you fools who reject the will of God, I only am here to point out His word and His works. I do not actually expect you to listen or hear. Your ears are shut (Mark 4:12), your hearts hardened (Exodus 8:19).
258

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 20:26:31
J F M, 272:

Surely the guy fixated with fornication fornication fornication is the Rev Scott Rennie?
259

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 20:36:18
275

Surely its you who is fixated by it....you seem to have a problem? Are you a virgin per chance?
260

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 20:38:04
274

Please, lets not have any of you daft Americans spouting nonsense on here or we will send round Louis Theroux!
261

TheOnlyGoodNewsIsTruth,

24/05/2009 21:02:37
Those who do not know and obey Scripture ARE "so-called and self-proclaimed" Christians.

This article presents those who openly flaunt this -- i.e., their false faith, and by consequence, these 'leaders' sadly misinform and lead astray their 'congregation'.

This is not love; this is open deceit.
262

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 21:31:36
278

Watch out....the sky is about to fall on your head.

Did you want Newcastle to go down today?
263

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 21:35:05
274 The Angel Gabriel, BOTOB and others.
Now Gabriel and BOTOB this is not a hard question - not a proposition from Einstein or Hawkins.
You both seem to believe that homosexuality (or at least its actions)sinful - right or not?
Why is performing homosexual acts a sin? Because it is in the Bible eg., Leviticus 20:13 . Right?
What’s the punishment (besides burning in torment for eternity after death). The punishment is ‘DEATH’ right or wrong - not a hard one as I say. It’s there plainly in the Bible.
Now what other ‘sins’ are punishable by ‘DEATH’ [check out #62 Robbie 2]
You( a female that is) marry when not a virgin. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Disobey your parents. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Collect firewood on the Sabbath. Numbers 15:32-56
You worship other gods. Deuteronomy 17:2-5 + Deuteronomy 13:5-10
The good Bible scholars know the rest
Now if you guys believe in Leviticus 20:13 and homosexuality is wrong (and deserves ‘DEATH’), what about all the other ‘sins’ where ‘DEATH’ is the sentence? Or do you cherry pick. Don’t say “oh! That’s the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is over three quarters of the entire Bible and Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17-19.

Please don’t continually hurl personal rude innuendoes. Please answer some questions.
264

Dougie Welsh,

Halifax 24/05/2009 21:52:51
Hey, Canada? You speak of the "Word of God". Have you ever seen the original speech notes? The cue cards used at the Sermon on the Mount? A temple record of the scourging of the retailers inside the Temple walls?

The "Word of God" is different in each language, and you know it. We today have no bloody idea what Jesus ACTUALLY said because there were no recorders, no Dictaphones, no mp3 digital voice recorders, nothing even close. The whole thing is a guess by the writers, and a limited list of options approved by Eusebius and the Council of Nicea, and all of that was designed to give temporal power to the Church, which is something GOD never asked for.

Get over yersel', mannie, yer no tha' good!
265

Glasgowknowsuknow,

GLASGOW 24/05/2009 22:09:13
Well said ROBBIE 2. I know why they don't answer the questions about scriptural quotes. They are all HYPOCRITES, that's why. Homophobes who 'pick and choose' scripture to suit their ends and spew out their satanic hatred towards others while blatantly ignoring many other passages from the Bible for fear of being sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
266

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:10:54
Robbie 2, 280

Wrong. I dont think *being* homosexual is sinful.
267

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:12:54
282: Robbie 2 is debating with a figment of his imagination.

All day I've been saying that I dont have ANY problem with ANYONE *being* homosexual.
268

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:15:05
282

Got to agree with you....when people start believing in things they cannot see, touch or no evidence that such a person even existed, then deny things that are right in front of their eyes, you know there is no hope for them.

A bit like Westminster MP's.......

269

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:17:06
282: who or what is YOUR god?
270

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:19:19
286

My god is live and let live.......
271

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:20:42
Who is YOUR god 286???

272

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:23:44
288: I have a god?
273

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:25:44
287: your earlier posts contradict your claim.
274

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:25:58
289

Well if you dont, then surely you should be more bothered about the Newcastle result today?
275

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:27:59
291: I couldnt give a flying duck about NUFC.
276

Glasgowknowsuknow,

GLASGOW 24/05/2009 22:30:04
BOTOB. Obviously not a Christian!
277

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:31:30
291

Neither do I.....Im into motorbikes.
278

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:32:59
Football's a close 2nd though.
279

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:33:26
293: I didnt ask what you're NOT.

I saked: who or what is YOUR god?
280

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:33:35
* asked
281

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:34:47
294: Who, or what is your god?
282

Glasgowknowsuknow,

24/05/2009 22:35:22
actually I was referring to you.
283

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:37:03
Who is your god then BOTOB?

Give us your spiel on all things great and good.

Should I crack open another beer in anticipation?
The bird is screaming for it upstairs for some fornication.....dont keep her waiting please!
284

Glasgowknowsuknow,

24/05/2009 22:37:52
as to your questions, it's irrelevant.
285

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:38:28
300: I have a god?
286

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:39:06
299: who?
287

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:39:31
301: whose questions? what questions?
288

Glasgowknowsuknow,

24/05/2009 22:42:25
304. Have you confused yourself? You asked my who or what my God is. I answered it was irrelevant. Do you now understand? Anyway, this has become some kind of 'chat' not a post. Contribute to the debate or go to bed or jump off a cliff or whatever it is you do.
289

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:42:40
302

Is that it? Well done.....top of the class!

Youve convinced me......
290

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:43:29
305: Who? What God are you on about now? You bible bashers are all the same.
291

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:44:07
306: well done, heathen.
292

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:44:30
Negotiating with de Valera.... is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork. ( to which de Valera replied, 'Why doesn't he use a spoon?' )

David Lloyd George quote

293

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:46:03
Blue Moon
You saw me standing alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own

Blue Moon
You know just what I was there for
You heard me saying a prayer for
Someone I really could care for

And then there suddenly appeared before me
The only one my arms will ever hold
I heard somebody whisper please adore me
And then I looked to the Moon it turned to gold

Blue Moon
Now I'm no longer alone
Without a dream in my heart
Without a love of my own
294

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:47:39
Coffee came first from Ethiopia," says Hailu Gebre Hiwot, president of the country's coffee exporters' association, as he sips on a cup of a deep, rich variety, "and so did mankind".


In a warehouse in Addis Ababa, where workers check the quality of tons of smooth, dark coffee beans, Mr Hiwot is musing on the unfairness of trade in a globalised world. While espresso, cappuccino and latte drinkers are bringing huge profits to some of the world's biggest multinationals, the place where coffee originated remains one of the poorest on Earth.

Around the world more than 2 billion cups of the stuff are consumed each day. In Starbucks in south London the cheapest shot of espresso costs £1.35. A coffee worker in Ethiopia earns less than half of that in a day.
295

Glasgowknowsuknow,

24/05/2009 22:48:29
edUCATIon I think it's time we left this poor soul to his rantings. I'm sure the nurse will be round soon enough with his medication.
296

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:48:33
308

Go and get yerself a girlfriend (or a bloke) whichever way, Im not that bothered and really, in the big scheme of things, no one else is.
297

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:50:14
312: You two were makin such great sense.
298

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:51:05
313: my wife wouldnae be too pleased....and I dont my three weans would be too impressed either, heathen.
299

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 22:51:36
312

A nurse??? Jeeez, Ive had some fornicating sessions with a few of them in my time!
300

,

24/05/2009 22:52:52
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301

Robbie 2,

NZ 24/05/2009 22:53:06
284 BOTOB,
“ Robbie 2 is debating with a figment of his imagination.”
Now BOTOB - who’s got the imaginary ‘friend’?

"All day I've (BOTOB) been saying that I don’t have ANY problem with ANYONE *being* homosexual."
Check what I (Robbie) wrote, I mentioned it was the ACTIONS (or fornication as you call it) of homosexuals that you might think sinful because of Leviticus 20:13.
The point is, you and many believers like you cherry right through the Bible. Not discussing the unsavoury bits.
Actually there is more evil acts and commands (in the Bible) than benevolent ones from page one until the end. I was asking do you believe in the sins and punishments listed in the Bible? Do you? Simple Yes or No.

The early Christian church was persecuted because it followed Jesus’ instructions and broke up families. The Romans didn’t mind any one having any God they wanted but too many citizens complained of this CULT (Christianity) telling its followers as Jesus had instructed, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.” It was causing mariage and family break ups.
Christianity did not become a more kindly religion until after the Enlightenment, the French socialist thinkers and then the various sects (Salvation Army etc) in the late 19th century.
Earlier it was burn at the stake, heretics, withches, and other Christians. Check up the 30 Year War half the population of the German states (all Christians) killed by other Christians.
It’s only comparatively recently that Christianity has shown a human side.
BOTOB I despair of you ever answering a question about the Bible and God’s instructions therein
302

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks Californiacation 24/05/2009 22:53:34
eDUCATIon How could you possibly interject a question about football into this discussion when serious things are happening. Only someone who rides italian bikes could possibly talk about FUTBAL when Andy Murray is over there making all of us scots proud!!! ps, what model is it?
303

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 22:57:31
Robbie 2, 318

You're really not gettin this, are you?

All that guff you've quoted about the Bible to me?

You'd be as well quotin George Orwell or Norman Wisdom at me!!!

I really couldnt give a flying duck!!!!

All that Leviticus chapter X verses Y - Z means SFA to me!!!

How thick ARE you, Robbie?

I've been trying to tell you ALL fluckin day!!!
304

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 23:02:32
319

Its a 1098s.....quite a few trick bits added as well :-)

305

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 23:04:12
317

Youve been talking shoite all day...give some other people a chance eh?
306

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 23:04:20
Robbie 2

You've got it intae yout thicko heid that I'm some sort of Bible basher who cares about what it says in "the" Bible you foam over.

You're STILL not getting my stance on homosexuality.

I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer for you!!!

Rein in your vivid imagination, Robbie and deal with ME and what I'm saying....not what you've imagined!!!
307

Dave from Skye,

Skye 24/05/2009 23:05:38
Fascinating letters page! Such passion!

My personal savior is a Jewish zombie carpenter with super powers, whose parents were a virgin and a ghost, and whose ancestors were a small piece of clay and a spare rib.

It's all in the Bible! And you can't argue with that. Although for some odd reason, churches seem to be getting emptier nowadays.

Can't imagine why.
308

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 23:06:51
322: always happy to reciprocate.

I do find it's wasteful to make intelligent posts when it's clear only retards are here with me.
309

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 23:08:16
324:

and Christianity is the planet's biggest religion with almost 2000 million members.
310

eDUCATIon,

24/05/2009 23:09:21
324

Thanks for that...... Its stuff like that that keeps BOTOB sane.....
311

The Pict.,

Canada/Edinburgh 24/05/2009 23:09:31
Note the protesters. WOW There must have been at least 4. Does it really matter whether a Jewish/Protestant gay or straight person continues to repeat a Jewish fairytale? I think not.
Get rid of all this religious rubbish and get on to important things in life. Scotland has it's own culture and why anybody would want to take on a Jewish culture is beyond me.
312

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 23:11:20
328: your quest to remove hard earned freedoms is disappointing. Still, I'm sure Adolf Hitler would applaud your fascism.
313

BOTOB,

24/05/2009 23:12:04
327: me, sane? Never, never, NEVER!!!
314

Richard Lionheart,

25/05/2009 00:33:06
Congratulations to the Rev Scott Rennie and his campaign team on circumventing the Church of Scotland Assembly on a matter which they did not really want to deal with ever.

Next we must presume will be the date for his “wedding” to his partner David.

It will be interesting to see the normal Christophobic posters commenting when the Church of Scotland gives it’s blessing for that one!

He is not the first person who has deliberately set out to destroy the Church, believing that its teaching was wrong. Will he have a Damascus Road experience? We shall have to wait and see.

It would be interesting to see the comments here if the head of Stonewall were suddenly to declare that he had become an openly evangelical Christian who believed (contrary to homosexual teaching) that the homosexual gene did not exist and that homosexuality is a condition which can be cured through therapy.

Don’t think William Hill’s would be giving odds on him being re-confirmed in his job.

Would it be a calamity if the Church of Scotland was to split over Scott Rennie? Probably not, in fact the Christian faith and the Christian Church in Scotland would probably emerge stronger as a result.
315

The Pict.,

Canada/Edinburgh 25/05/2009 01:11:18
BOTOB # 329. No Actually Hitler was one of yours....a believer in the Jewish/Protestan fable. I, for your information, am a secular humanist. The freedoms we have never came from any religion. The freedoms came from others like me who do not believe in torture, murder or keeping human beings living in filth like pigs. That's your Jewish/Christians brothers in Palestine

You sir are not free. You are tragically a mental prisoner wracked by fear and therefore afraid to allow yourself to think for yourself. You might try that.
316

Denis J Anatty,

25/05/2009 02:28:45
A sad day for Christians all over the world. The Church must be compassionate but should never compromise its foundational principals. Homosexuality is a sin.
317

Kenny A,

25/05/2009 10:29:31
A couple of post to cover here, lets start with media 1 and your post at 247. I cant agree with it, I am in control of my sexuality, I like women, I am a man, I could not envisage jumping into the sack with a man. End of story, in that regard I am like the vast majority of men and women who prefer partners of the opposit sex.

252 Ewan Gays were created by god, he is the creator of all, so I disagree with you on that line, so we agree on most matters but I did a great deal of thinking before posting this. I regard it as an abnormality, they are different but not all evil. I doubt Mr Rennie is evil but he is the wrong sort for the church.

The ways gays and lesbians demand their "rights", and get more rights than the majority turns my stomach.

331, Richard, Clever post.

Now after a late night of debating this subject with my african buddies (I went for a few beers after church)Sabeth breaking Wee Free that I am, I wish you all well and hope a decent resolution comes of this issue.
318

Glasgowknowsuknow,

25/05/2009 15:01:47
333, Denis get over yourself. A foundational principle of Christianity is hardly the issue of homosexuality!! Where in the gospels of Christ is it even mentioned? I know what is mentioned elsewhere along with:
DEATH to:
1. Sabbath breakers - For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. Exodus 31:15
2. Followers of other religions - If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. - Deut 13:7-12
3. Blasphemers - Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. – Lev 24:16
4. Cursers - All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:9
5. Adulterers - If a man commits adultery with another man's wife - with the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:10
6. Homosexuals - If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13
7. Rebellious Teenagers - If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall ... say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. - Deut 21

And not only is killing people something that scripturists are at pains to ignore, what about sexism?
Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. - 1 Tim 2
Or Racism/Slavery?
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations arou
319

Glasgowknowsuknow,

25/05/2009 15:04:27
Cont.....
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

As I have previously said, those who pick and choose passages to suit their own trivial prejudices are not really Christians at all, just Hypocrites.
320

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 25/05/2009 18:56:15
THE ISSUE IS NOT HOMOSEXUALITY (per se) -THAT MAY EMERGE IN TONIGHT'S DEBATE. So let's clear the air of all these 'homophobic' accusations.

THE ISSUE IS WHETHER A PRACTISING HOMOSEXUAL CAN HOLD OFFICE since it appears to militate against the process of sanctification. Similar rules apply for certain modes of heterosexual behaviour.

Hibby Heapy,
' As members of the CofS, we proclaim during our communion that we believe in the "Holy Roman Catholic Church". '

I think you'll find that the word 'Roman' does not apear. It is the use of the 'catholic' to mean universal.
321

CANUCK,

Canada 25/05/2009 19:33:19
I am not a homophobic and I do feel that the "Kirk" is in desperate need of reformation but I personally cannot accept a Homosexual or Lesbian as a minister or a priest in the Church
As a Christian,of the book, the New testiment clearly sets out what is Love,what it is and how one is required to act, the whole meaning of life for a Christian to to try and perfect love. Sexual immorality
does not play apart in this quest and Christ clearly states that is where a line is drawn. Although we have no right to condon or condem or critcise those who "WE" think are acting sexually immoral that is their choice but "WE" do not have to or cannot be required to accept them as our church teachers, ministers and or priests. Take into account here married church leaders who have affiars outside of marriage,or interference with minors etc. and for many of us "Buggery" and all that goes with it falls into the catagory of sexual immorality "All" irrespective of who they may be, are accpted into the chuch as members of the faith and congregation but not ALL can hold positions in the church, the crteria for such a position is also set out in the New Testement.I believe, that the New Testement sets out what Christian princples have to be, and, if we want to try and be Chirstians we have to accept those princples. "He who able to accept it, let him accept it."
322

CANUCK,

Canada 25/05/2009 19:42:23
No.335
I note that all your references are from the "Old Testament" nothing from the "New".Christ set us free from the "Law" of the Old Commandment which the Old Testament is based and gave us the New Commandment of Love" with which the Law of is almost made redundent,if you follow the commandment of Love.
I have written before that the "Kirk" and or the Church of Scotland seems to be firmly based on Old Testament teachings and this I belive can only lead to confusion when you are a follower of Christ
323

Beverly,

Arcadia 25/05/2009 21:20:51
"What a Boyfriend We Have in Jesus!"

/sarc
324

Glasgowknowsuknow,

26/05/2009 00:17:41
338. You confuse the issue of sexual orientation and sexual practice. You are correct to point out that irrespective of sexual orientation (i.e. inclusive of heterosexuals), sexual practice is something which scripture takes a moral view on. Love on the other hand is pretty universal irrespective (again) of sexual orientation. So, if the issue isn't sexual orientation, what I can't understand is the condemnation of many in the 'Church' of homosexuals, when equally heterosexuals are just as guilty of sexually immoral practices. Why is it that on any discussion re sexual orientation does everyone have to make it about sex. Sex is a relatively tiny part of anyone's relationship. Surely the emotional bonds including love are what we are all about. Why do people such as yourself have to concentrate on the sex? You quote 'buggery'. Nice term, but how often have you used it to refer to heterosexuals who equally indulge and why be so naive as to 'presume' it to be a homosexual act.
335. I agree with your comment. However the point is that many people choose scriptural texts in order to allegedly 'justify' their views against homosexuals while at the same time selectively choosing to ignore other scriptural passages which don't quite fit into their views.
325

Glasgowknowsuknow,

26/05/2009 00:31:32
337, sorry to correct you but the motion was to ban homosexuals from the ministry. Nothing about 'practising' homosexuals. Also, it seems OK for the 'traditionalists' not to ban people who are not 'openly homosexual'. So it's ok to lie about your sexual orientation as opposed to being honest. Funny that.
326

dsm68,

26/05/2009 06:25:53
deeply saddened by the church's stance in the second matter, ask the congregration? the church should be promoting the good news about jesus, the good news about the bible and making clear points on these matters, id use the word coward now when thinking about the people who run the COS, are they evangelical? we have the chance to promote God the bible, unify the church and stop confusion and what do they do? sit on the fence, jesus isnt a guy who sat on fences.
327

Scottish Canadian,

Ottawa canada 26/05/2009 11:45:26
CANUCK: What are you on about? You live in a progressive, liberal country yet your attitudes are completely anachronistic.
Throw off the chains of your religion and think for yourself.

 

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