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I won't pay back a penny vows defiant Sir Fred

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RBS chief executive Stephen Hester on the banking crisis
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Published Date: 27 February 2009
SIR Fred Goodwin, the former Royal Bank of Scotland boss, has refused to surrender his £650,000-a-year pension, amid mounting anger over the terms of his multi-million-pound deal.
Click here to view images of Sir Fred Goodwin's career

He defied calls from Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, and Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, to give back some of the money – it amounts to £1,898.63 a day – or face legal action.

His refusal was attacked last night by Lord Myners, the City minister, who called it "unacceptable".

The row caused huge embarrassment for the government, after ministers admitted they knew five months ago Sir Fred's pension pot would more than double from its initial £8 million.

The former RBS chief executive is coming under intense pressure to give up at least part of his pension, which he is now receiving at the age of 50 under an early retirement deal agreed with the bank's board when he was forced out last October.

But Treasury sources last night revealed Sir Fred had written to Lord Myners to say he was not ready to waive his entitlement. "Whilst I suspect that you will not now agree with it, I hope you can understand my rationale for declining your request to voluntarily reduce my pension entitlement," he wrote.

His refusal came as RBS yesterday announced a £24.1 billion annual loss – a UK record – largely due to the disastrous strategy of corporate acquisitions pursued by Sir Fred.

The losses led to a second state bail-out, which will see some £325 billion of RBS assets placed in a taxpayer-backed protection scheme, while the government extends its near 70 per cent stake by a further £13 billion.

Mr Brown threatened yesterday to take legal action to claw back some of the £16 million pension pot. But the government faces an uphill battle if it tries to tear up a legal contract.

Sir Fred could take his case to Brussels, as many employment rights are under the jurisdiction of the European Union.

In his terse letter to Lord Myners, he suggested ministers had known about his pension rights. He said he had waived his rights to a pay-off of a year's salary – £1.2 million – and Lord Myners had indicated that was an "appropriate and sufficient recognition of the circumstances".

He also gave up rights to shares worth three months' pay. "You indicated that you were aware of my entitlement and that no further 'gestures' would be required," he wrote.

"I accept responsibility for that which I was responsible for and recognise that my actions must be consistent with this. I believe that they have been and to voluntarily accept a reduction in a pension entitlement which has been built up over many years and in other employment in addition to RBS is not warranted."

Responding by letter last night, Lord Myners disputed the banker's version of events and told him his decision not to volunteer a reduction in his pension was "unfortunate and unacceptable".

He urged Sir Fred to accept a reduced pension, writing: "I think such an act would be an appropriate recognition of the failings of RBS under your tenure.

"I hope that on reflection you will now share my clear view that the losses reported today by the bank which you ran until October cannot justify such a huge award."

Earlier, Mr Brown had said: "Failure should not be rewarded. Practices are coming to light which have got to be dealt with."

Meanwhile, the Chancellor admitted ministers had looked at RBS's books in October but only became aware last week that they could have blocked Sir Fred's payment.

Mr Darling insisted the package was not negotiated or approved by the government.

He said ministers were under the impression it was an unavoidable contractual commitment. It was only about a week ago that it was discovered the then RBS board exercised an element of discretion in effectively doubling the size of Sir Fred's pension pot from £8 million to £16 million, he said.

The Chancellor told MPs: "What we did know last autumn was that we were told there was a contractual agreement between the board of the bank and Sir Fred. What we didn't know – and it was only very recently that we became aware – (was] that the decision of the previous board to allow Sir Fred to take early retirement had the effect of increasing his pension entitlement and that that might have been a discretionary choice."

However, the severance and early retirement policy is set out in the 2007 RBS accounts. They state: "The RBS Fund rules allow all members who retire early at the request of their employer to receive a pension based on accrued service with no discount applied for early retirement".

UKFI – the government-backed body that deals with bailed-out banks – is to review all aspects of Sir Fred's pay-off to see if any can be clawed back.

Challenged as to why the government did not find out about Sir Fred's pension at the time it took over RBS, Mr Brown's spokesman said: "We had to act very quickly in October in order to prevent the bank from collapsing. We did not take majority ownership until December, and UKFI have been poring through the books.

"RBS is a big bank with a large balance sheet and there are a lot of assets and liabilities that have to be looked at. Since they became aware of the change of pension entitlement, UKFI have been vigorously pursuing whether there is any scope for clawing some of this back."

The Prime Minister wanted "every legal avenue" to be explored to establish what money may be reclaimed.

Stephen Hester, the new RBS chief executive, said the arrangements for Sir Fred's departure had been "negotiated directly between past directors and the government and him".

George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, said: "Whichever way one looks at it, this obscene pension is unacceptable and the government is on the hook. Either they did know and failed to act, or didn't know and failed to ask the right questions.

"There is now only one person who can correct this huge error of judgment by the Chancellor, and that is Sir Fred Goodwin himself – who should in all decency renounce his pension."

Click here to read Sir Fred Goodwin's letter

Click here to read Lord Myners' response

Page 1 of 1

 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

26/02/2009 23:06:14
Sir Fred is entirely correct to ignore the detractors.

He built his pension up over many years as a successful banker. If it was not fot him, RBS would probably have been swallowed up by one of its many competitors years ago.

He was lauded at the time of the ABN Amro Takeover (which proved to be the banks death nell).

A massive 96% of the shareholders voted FOR the ABN Amro takeover. Where were all the dissenting voices then?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It is noticeable that all those who are calling for his head are, in the main, failed politicians who themselves are on Gold Plated Pensions, or taking 2 salaries in Salmond's case.
2

Tris,

27/02/2009 00:11:36

Will all the people that his incompetent management has or will leave out of work also be entitled to double their pension paid 10 years early? Or is that just for people with knighthoods?

I wonder if Brown will actually take legal action seeing as Lord Muddlehead of the Treasury seems to have overseen this fiasco.

Parcel of rogues? Burns wouldn't believe this lot.
3

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:12:12
#1

"ignore the detractors"

You mean the ones reporting the biggest loss in UK corporate history?
4

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 00:12:24

If RBS had been allowed to go bust Fred's pension would be £20,000 per annum.

5

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:13:16
What is Rufus-BS-Firefly trying to defend here?
6

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:13:43
#4

£20 000 too much.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:15:00


If Sir Fred Goodwin,,.."won't pay back a penny", he should do the honorable thing, and give this much needed money to charities and the needy!

A couple of thousand will do me, 'thankyou very much'

:)


8

Forward not Back,

27/02/2009 00:20:07
It is now obvious that letting HBust and RBS go to the wall whilst guaranteeing depositors would have been far more efficient than this mess.

Then Fred's pension wouldn't have been an issue.
9

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:22:37
Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:13:16
What is Rufus-BS-Firefly trying to defend here?
===================================================
Silbermensch, I do not know what you work as.

However, just say at 50 years old, after building up a pension working for various companies over the previous 30 years, you made a dreadful decision at work that ultimately ended in you being sacked.

Bearing in mind you did nothing illegal, you simply made a huge mistake.

Do you think it would be fair for your employer to withdraw your pension from you? Especially when you are legally entitled to it, and especially when a lot of it was built up working for other companies.
10

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 27/02/2009 00:23:13
RufusT-Firefly display all the sense of the ridiculous of his namesake, Groucho Marx. Go on, paint on a muostache and do a funny walk, Rufus, you've got us all in stitches.

Why not go the whole hog and suggest that Sir Fred become a Labour Lord? After all, his detractors are totally mistaken to think that he has beggared the nation and destroyed the jobs, security, homes and finances of tens of thousands of ordinary people, rewarded himself extravagantly throughout his disastrous reign at RBS,and tried to ensure a similar large number of zeroes in his income for the rest of his life, perhaps another thirty years.
11

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:28:32
Peter Curran, Sir Fred was earning the kind of salary, bonus and pension that all these Chief Executives earn when employed by multi national companies.

Whether you or I agree with it is neither here nor there. All he got was the going rate for the job.

Ultimately, the ABN Amro deal was a huge blunder. He lost a huge severance package because of it. But why should he lose his pension? A pension that was built up over many years of employment, much of which was non RBS?

Should we repossess his house as well, and throw his wife and kids out onto the street?
12

,

27/02/2009 00:29:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 00:29:10
and they all came tumbling down........
14

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:30:18
Rufus-T-Bullcrap

Your response is as ridulous as your initial post.

Same rules apply.

Maybe the world would be a better place if you'd been silent like Harpo.
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:31:02


I will be expecting my cheque in the post tomorrow, I need to get a few 'tins of beans' and some bread, a 'power card' and some soap to wash myself!

16

Peeablo,

Back to the 70's 27/02/2009 00:32:47
Grrrrrrrr

I have to agree with Dufus on this one. It is his pension, like it or lump it.

Labour are deflecting all the attention at Goodwin - if the public are blaming Goodwin then they ain't blaming Brown.

This has Mandleson all over it !!!
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:32:52


I kidd you NOT!, this it is what it is like for many in Scotland, and the situation can only get worse!

GET YOUR MONEY OUT SIR FRED!!!


18

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:33:44
16 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:30:18

At least I had a response.

You offer nothing but cheap jibes.
19

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:34:13
Roofrat Rufus wants a £16 million settlement paid out of the public purse.

Looks like Rufus knows not a lot about economics.

Good attempt at trolling RTF, but it's failed.
20

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 00:34:52

#13

'But why should he lose his pension?'

Because when a company goes bust the maximum pension an employee can receive is £20,000.

RBOS was only prevented from going bust because the taxpayer bailed them out.

That's why Fred should lose his pension.

21

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:36:32
Rufus,

you're too thick to understand my response.

Fred was the life and soul of the imaginary money party. It failed, and now he wants taxpayer money.

Cheap jibes, or your fundamental lack of the way money works?
22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:37:23


"£650,000" = £54,166.666 per month in a year!

"666" The Devils Work, no-doubt!!


23

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:37:28
22 Stan Butler,27/02/2009 00:34:52
'But why should he lose his pension?'
Because when a company goes bust the maximum pension an employee can receive is £20,000.
==================================================
Stan that is not quite the case here though is it as his pension was built up through employment with other companies too for example Clydesdale Bank.
24

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 00:37:51
#18 Peeablo

'It is his pension, like it or lump it.'

Wrong.

He only has a pension because the taxpayer bailed out the bank to stop it going bust. If the taxpayer hadn't stepped in the maximum pension Fred would have received is £20,000 pa.
25

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:38:11
#27

Parroting stuff you heard on the news.
26

Castaway™ ,

27/02/2009 00:39:24
If Fred Goodwin has a legal written contract he should take his entitlement in full, it is not his fault or problem that he secured the £650,000-a-year pension.

He did what anyone in his position would do and that is try and negotiate the best deal possible and it was up to others to agree or disagree, which according to Stephen Hester,the arrangements for Sir Fred's departure had been "negotiated directly between past directors and the government and him".

Revealed: the secrets of Sir Fred's pension
Times- Feb 26, 2009 ::: http://tinyurl.com/atzeot
27

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:39:27
Fred's Clydesdale pension doesn't amount to £16 million.

Rufus is talking out of a hole in the ground.

As usual.
28

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:39:30
25 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:36:32
Rufus,

you're too thick to understand my response.
==============================================

No I understood your response all right.

No point in dwelling upon it is there?

Best to let it stand on its on merits.
29

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 27/02/2009 00:39:56
Yes, Rufus, poor old Sir Fred is only a step away from the workhouse, having failed to squirrel away any of the millions he received in remuneration and bonuses. Somehow, I don't think his wife and children will lack for a roof over their heads and a crus to gnaw on, unlike those thousands who have been consigned to the dole queue and had their houses repossessed because of his gambling with other people's money.

Your compassion for this poor, hard-done- by knight of the realm is admirable. Can you spare a little for the victims of his improvidence?

http://moridura.blogspot.com
30

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:40:40
33 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:39:27
Fred's Clydesdale pension doesn't amount to £16 million.

Rufus is talking out of a hole in the ground.

As usual.
====================================================

Obviously not as that is his total pension point and that would leave the RBS part standing at zero.

Do you not have anything to offer this forum?
31

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:42:07
#34

You don't understand economics. You've not said anything that makes any sense regarding Fred apart from opaque platitudes.
32

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:42:56
Pension point?
33

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:43:09


How many 'Babies' can I have with assisted IVF, for £650k?

See we not allowed to comment on the lesbian's!
34

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:44:17
30 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:38:11
#27

Parroting stuff you heard on the news.
===============================================
Wrong again.

You really are stupid aren't you?

I got that information from Sir Fred's letter which is shown as a link further up this page.

Sounds like you have not even read the article and you have just come on here to talk through your ass.

Try and get something right next time.

35

Ubi,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:44:50
In the context of utterly treacherous ministers seeking to use him to save their own necks Sir Fred Goodwin is absolutely right to flip the government the finger.

These are the same gormless ministers and officials who negotiated and agreed his settlement only a few months ago, having failed to recognise its explosive potential.

Fred agreed to reconsider it, however reluctantly, and before he had even had the chance to do that the government had run off to the press, barking the dirt.

For the avoidance of doubt, that is an incentive to cooperate, Minister?

Fred has a reputation as a clear thinker so I would not presume to advise him. But hell hath no fury like a government scorned and there are no levels to which these perfidious serpents will not stoop to obtain the scapegoat which might save their jobs.

If the weight of contract puts it beyond the reach of the civil courts then new evidence might surprisingly come to light - or just be made up by the state’s over worked printers - which, after all, allows this government to seek on behalf of the hard working families and businesses of this country to bring to justice in the courts of law those who have caused so much damage to our economy and who have profited by it without a (that’s enough now Brown… Ed)

36

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:45:06
39 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:42:56
Pension point?
===========================

Pension Pot.
37

gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 27/02/2009 00:45:22
I suppose Sir Fred's pension is quite small compared to the bail out of RBS announced today. £600K a year compared to £300Bn.
But all is not lost. We could make him reconsider.
We could sue Fred for incompetence. Plenty of examples. ABNAmro would be the first trial.
Or we could have an Act of Parliament to cancel his pension. Unusual but definitely popular ( snotgobbler would love it ).
If that failed we could let the black ops folk loose.
Dodgy computer stuff etc. Or even go for the Kelly angle. Fred was overcome with grief at the loss of so many jobs that he climbed up Arthurs Seat and jumped off. Quick Beatification ala Jade/ Diana etc and hey presto £16m saved. Sorted.
38

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:45:25
#41

Like I said, parroting the news.
39

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:46:01
16 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:30:18
Rufus-T-Bullcrap
Your response is as ridulous as your initial post.
================================================

"ridulous"?
40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:46:08


Maybe my DYW and I would not need IVF, if Sir Fred gives us some dosh to buy the beans for stamina!
:)



41

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:46:56
46 Silbermensch,27/02/2009 00:45:25
#41
Like I said, parroting the news.
======================================

Now you are just being "ridulous".
42

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 00:47:47

The FT reckons that the pension pot must be considerably larger than the £16m quoted to result in an annual pension of £690,000. They reckon it's about £25m.

Interesting comment left by one of their readers:

'2. Sir, soon to be just plain "Fred" Goodwin is going to get a 650 k pension. Will he get to see it?

Fred's problem is Scotland has the highest murder rate per capia in Europe and Fred’s really hurt some people and the families of some people that quite frankly you wanta don't hurt. My self preservation would be urging me to show my country men empathy and compassion; that I am truly repent. A start would be giving up his pension, and donating everything he made at RBS to British charities. To be clear, I am not advocating anything illegal against him, he's a fmaily man and that sacred, but its a tough world out there and some people have lost a life times saving on his watch...... Vote + if you think he'd be advised to give it up!'
43

Peeablo,

Back to the 70's 27/02/2009 00:48:31
#28

As I don't have these figures I can't really comment on this £20k figure. It does seem rather low if Goodwin had been contributing to a pot for over 10 years. Pensions are protected for company collapse are they not?

Out of interest, where did you get that £20k figure.
44

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 00:48:47
50 Canes Pugnaces,27/02/2009 00:46:43
37. Rufus will defend the indefensible
================================================

Alex Salmond made a really worthwhile trip to the States this week.
45

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:49:33


Flywheel ~49,

HOY! I am no "pensioner" yet, but 'God Help You All' when I am, because I will be on here all day! :D

46

Silbermensch,

27/02/2009 00:51:12
Roofrat,

epic fail, dude

E P I C F A I L
47

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 00:53:54

#53 Peeablo

That was the best guestamate of a pension expert quoted in yesterday's Times.
48

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:55:41



Soo! get this, "Sir Fred" gets £650k and I will be lucky to have 65pence on Monday Morning!

Plus the fact, I have worked all my life, since I left School, something wrong somewhere, or is it "Sod's Law"?

49

gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 27/02/2009 00:56:50
#52 Stan
Yeah that's Fred's problem. He has made the government look stupid. Then poked them in the eye. He must think we live in a democracy or something sweet like that. And that we don't silence idiots like him. Taking £650K a year after flattening the British economy just aint gonna happen.
50

JG,

Fife 27/02/2009 00:57:37
#53 Peeablo
So how much a week would Fred have to contribute to accumulate a pension pot of £16m?
51

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:58:39

Flywheel ~59,

Dinnae get smart with me Boy!, I assume you are one? :)

52

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 01:03:27
If a leading Scottish QC can't get access to justice what hope is there for the rest of us.
53

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:06:21


Flywheel ~66,

"Goodwin" It certainly was a,...'Good Win'! £650k!

At Least he has the appropriate name, unlike me!





54

,

27/02/2009 01:09:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

,

27/02/2009 01:12:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

,

27/02/2009 01:14:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:19:17


At 'end off day' Sir Fredy Boy, WILL keep is £650k, no-matter, what anyone says, it is called "Arrogance"!


58

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:25:06


Did you get my comment at #74, Gordon Brown?

Do you have any tricks 'up-your-sleeve' to get Fred, to give this Money Back, to where it belongs, the investors in RBS!?


59

gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 27/02/2009 01:25:16
#70
Lets look at Sir Fred. I'm of similar age and similar background. I went into the military and he went into banking. I did 20 years serving overseas for HM Forces.
While he worked in the UK.
He lost us £300Bn and counting and takes home £650K a year in pension.
I lost lots of good friends in bombings and shootings and get £450 a month in pension.
I f***** hate the b****** !!
60

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 01:31:18
#72
Totally agree, and a precedence has been set. Unfortunately it is open only to extremely wealthy individuals or a group action, who no doubt do not want/or can't plough any more money into fighting the rbs
61

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:33:02


Believe you me! RBS will become 'RBS-a-gate' all the conspiracy's, and dodgy dealings will be covered up, Big Style!, make NO Mistake! We are the Pawns!

62

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 27/02/2009 01:35:38
Can't believe I am agreeing with roofarse. Fred Goodwin, take the pension. You negotiated it, it's yours. You just screwed a company. Brown screwed a COUNTRY. Is he going to get a pension, a million pounds a time speaking tour of the States, a autobiography etc. Yes you better believe it! Stop him getting a penny now, before it's too late.
63

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 01:36:10
Sorry Charles but prawns seems more appropriate
64

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:38:45


Flywheel @#85 several

"Where is Rufus?"

Gone to his Bed!, where you shold be! Now Stop doing this!


65

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:40:22


Manuel ~88,

No need to be "sorry", I was talking chess!



66

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:42:35


Flywheel ~87,

"Oops!"

Forgiven! I thought you were doing it delibertaly!
67

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 01:48:11
#91

"Forgiven", is a good word!, I use it on many occasions!

Problem is! One cannot be "Forgiven" in earning this disgusting amount of money, that has grown on 'Trees', for Sir Fred!

68

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 02:01:20
It is blood money! Maybe he will be found a the bottom of an 8-foot-deep hole of ....
69

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 02:23:58
As we know, the uk government will find no different!
70

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 02:25:20


Manuel~94,

"bottom of an 8-foot-deep hole"

At 'end off day' this is where one will be, at the end of their lives, far the better, to heve help others, than thinking money is what we are all here for!

71

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 02:31:13
#93 viruses don't go away they mutate!
72

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 27/02/2009 02:35:26
The clown who posted thread No1, then waited for the little fishes to bite is called a Troll. Please stop acknowledging it and it may go away.

URBAN DICTIONARY - Definition of trolling
To use the internet to start problems, insult, or hurt others. An action that only usually affects the person trolling.
Usually a very bored, lonely person with no friends. Or a punk ass kid.
73

Manuel,

Fawlty Towers 27/02/2009 02:49:38
not unlike a virus then...

74

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 27/02/2009 03:45:28
He's a dead man. He had better have good police protection. What shocking arrogance.
75

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/02/2009 03:57:20
So it looks like he won't give up on his pension.

Will Comrade Broon strip him of his knighthood???

Or would that be an admission that Comrade Broon is culpable for the whole sorry mess????
76

BOBO UMBONGONDO,

Counting House 27/02/2009 04:04:02
The incompetent and financialy clueless fredo should be doing time, not stiffing us for more filthy lucre.The shred's alleged expertise was in liquidation, which he proved to be the case by his liquidation of RBS........at the taxpayers expense.
77

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 27/02/2009 04:54:11
Lets start up a campaign to call for Maggie Brown Darling and Blair to forego THEIR pension rights. Goodwins is money from a Private Pension Plan Theirs is stloen straight out off the public trough.
78

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 27/02/2009 04:59:26
No consideration is shown for the many families made homeless by the bank's repossessions or thousands thrown out of work by the likes of the Shredder.
79

STEADYEDDIE,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 05:28:22
£650,000 per year I work for at the Lords Roberts Workshops (The Brush Factory) Livingston For Disabled Ex-Servicemen/women it is now due to close down in June due to lack of funding. We employ 11 ex-servicemen at a running cost of around £200,000 Mr Goodwins pension could keep 35 ex sevicemen a year in employment and in the current situation with so many servicemen developing injuries and post traumatic stress we need to keep a facility like this open So come on Fred 1/3 of your pension would keep 11 people who helped keep your bank and your country nice and safe whilst you raked in your millions stay open
80

Charlie Ferrier,

hamilton 27/02/2009 06:09:09
I think its Gordon Brown that should be sacked and his pension slashed to the minimum along with the hundreds of civil servants instrumental in the debacle.

I find it laughable that everyone is even arguing about this or discussing it. The RBS has lost who knows how much - best estimate $50,000 million - we are speaking of $16 million.

Moreover this is a negotiated contract that the governement in its usual naivety negotiated through the Board of RBS. What have the other Directors who new they were getting sacked negotiated?

It is a legal and I suspect very binding contract. The bad guys in all this scenario are the government. Why i hear you ask.

Because they were intent on taxing and spending and really did not care where the money came from - as far as they were concerned the more money the banks make on paper the more billions of taxes they get. Gordon Brown was exclusively responsible for the mess in the financial sector from a public oversight point of view - his is a bigger failure as it encompasses all the failures in the banking and financial system - and the resultant chaos in the country - it was his job to oversea and ensure the institutions played sensible risk management - he did not - now in order to fix it and get himself re-elected he wants the financial system to take all the blame - particularly accentuating this by spending up big and trying to be the good guy by saving the day.

STOP HIM - NOW HE IS THE ONE STEALING YOUR MONEY!!

The best solution would have been to let the banks go to the wall - the toxic debt would have disapeared in a puff of shareholder going bankrupt and all the good debt such as residential mortgages would have been bought up by banks who were left in a fire sale - giving great returns - and allowing them to really reduce mortgage rates profitably.

Now we have an artificially held together bunch of toxic debt still here creating huge market uncertainty everywhere and stopping the availability of credit.
81

Scotty dog,

27/02/2009 06:25:37
Fred should just do the honourable thing
82

david team,

27/02/2009 06:35:38
does anyone know if any of the remuneration committee on the rbos board who approved the deal , are still on the board , and if so , who are they ?
83

Lolkate,

Perth Western Australia 27/02/2009 06:36:07
All this male posturing by these commentators is quite ridiculous and NON helpful. My husband did a Directors course a few years and they are held responsible for any wrong doing as should any CEO. So if they are responsible they are accountable - if they are accountable they should be arrested for malfeasance or just plain wrong doing, bad practtice or whatever etc. Definitely INeligible for any pensions whatsover and indeed should be looking at gaol sentences.
I used to be ateller in teh Clydesdale bank when it was servic eto the customer etc and not trying to sell products to the customers all the time. The sooner everybody gets back to honest, ethical and fair work practices the better.
84

david team,

27/02/2009 06:38:32
another thought - what would an independent scotland have been able to do , to help rbos? anything ?
85

,

27/02/2009 06:49:53
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86

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 27/02/2009 06:53:26
His refusal came as RBS yesterday announced a £24.1 billion annual loss – a UK record – largely due to the disastrous strategy of corporate acquisitions pursued by Sir Fred.

It's funny how quickly forget the previous 9 years when the RBS was lauded as one of the greatest financial institutions in the World and "Sir Fred" proclaimed as a financial genius.

A lot fo folk seem to have forgotten that "Sir Fred" is not responsible for the crisis that caused the entire World's financial system to go into meltdown..... it was immoral traders involved in shortselling that brought the banks shares crashing down...... I don't hear many folk shouting from the rooftops that THESE parasites should hand bank the millions of pounds they made from trading in shares that they didn't even have at the time they were bought and sold !!!
87

Baillie Guthrie,

Caithness 27/02/2009 06:54:33
He can give it, but he can't take it. This is deeply pathetic from a 'buccaneer'.

"Please sir Mr Brown can I keep my pension."

He is like some creep in Jimmyz who can't pay his bar bill after a losing streak.

Viss off you loser. And take your little English Knighthood with you, you Clydesdale Bank Clerk.

Va t'en twister.
88

,

27/02/2009 06:55:32
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89

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 07:40:34
Ok, never thought I'd write this but I agree with Rufus.

He's legally entitled to that pension. Morally is a different issue. However, unless Fred is an "off shoring account" type, the government will relieve him of around 40% of that cash as he would appear to be in the super tax bracket.

Additionalyl, unless Fred is a hoarder (which I doubt) he will be spending that cash of all sorts of things from maintenance of house to holidays to food/drink to cars etc which is exactly what the economy needs. No? Thought that what was GB wanted? Us to borrow to spend to keep the wheels turning?

So, either way, the government and people will recieve that cash somehow but it will be at Fred disscretion (except the tax bit).

However, if he is an "off shoring account" type, then Lie-bore will have to stop protecting these types of people if they want the cash.

A complete and utter catch 22 and Labour should stop persecuting Fred or he won't donate to the LAbour party fund.
90

McMillar,

Fife 27/02/2009 07:42:37
This is just a distraction. If anyone is to blame look towards former non execs and the hr director. There are thousands of former public sector/council workers out there who are claiming sizable pensions for a career spent avoiding any form of real work that delivers.
91

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

27/02/2009 07:49:17
#1 Doofus - "It is noticeable that all those who are calling for his head are, in the main, failed politicians who themselves are on Gold Plated Pensions, or taking 2 salaries in Salmond's case. "

I note you ommit the man who deregulated them to enbale them to bankroll his phoney "prosperous times", The main who engineered the current crisis by using mainly hedge fund managers as his advisers, ommitting all other industries.

RUFUS....HYPOCRITE.....NAWWW!
92

,

27/02/2009 07:50:45
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93

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

27/02/2009 07:51:19
"48 Charles Linskaill,Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:46:08


Maybe my DYW and I would not need IVF, if Sir Fred gives us some dosh to buy the beans for stamina!
:)
"

Why not take her for her usual Happy meal and toy? That should get her in the mood.
94

TWC,

27/02/2009 07:54:58
1 RufusT-Firefly,

He is entitled to the agreed pension pot but since he retired early there should have been a reduction normally 3% or more per annum(since it will be drawn for a longer time). So he should have had his pension reduced by 30% plus.
The real problem here is the difference between the Salaries and Conditions of Bankers, Company Execs, Council Execs and MPs versus those of the rest of the populace.
These guys are effectively our overhead and they are the reason why the UK is so expensive. Every thing or service you buy has some of there benefits added to it.

Council Execs get extortionate salaries & Conditions but when times get tough the punters get laid off.

Now we have Labour MPs who are millionaire's but never had a real job before.
This Goverment are incompetent and the Trades Unions should stop backing them.
95

Capitalists in a Socialists van -Labours band,

27/02/2009 07:55:08
"A Car
A Blueray Player
A 40 inch Plasma
2 Laptops and loads of clothes."

and married too! I would have mistaken it for the shopping list of a teenager with a grant check and no responsibilities. Either that or a Tory with a rich dadddy.
96

Phil C,

27/02/2009 08:00:29
#1 Rufus T Blowfly

In your rush to be first you spew your usual rubbish.

You don't get it do you! Nobody, but nobody, should get a pension like that, nor the pay & 'bonuses' which went before. It's disgusting, immoral corporate greed and waste, legal contracts or not. It's time to stop these obscene fat cat excesses for good.

And we could have a go at footballers, actors and celebrity nobodies as well! Let them go to America, that shining beacon of restraint and healthy values. They could sue the ass off each other and everyone else and make more greed money that way.
97

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh. 27/02/2009 08:01:48
Let the "James Blunt" have his pension.
98

TWC,

27/02/2009 08:12:48
125 Rulesbutnotrulers,

I saw Big Gordo and his body swerve, he began...."I just found out about this a few days ago..."


The people are being Screwed by everybody the bankers, the MPs, the Councils and the employers.

We need a kind of revolution here, perhaps Scotland could lead the way when it gets Fiscal Autonomy.
99

Paul Spencer,

glasgow 27/02/2009 08:24:35
Its typical of the governement saying that it should take the £16 million away or renegotiate it, they cant even be bothered to tell us the rbs quantum as oppossed to to his Clydesdale bank & Deloitte and Touche £ and then make a decision.

The fact is he earnt it, and what is more I have to a agree with previous posters that it is the government that has to be called to account and that will happen in 2010.
100

Peter Eddowes,

Balderton 27/02/2009 08:25:22
Is it £650,000 a year from a pension pot of £16m?

or £693,000 a year as reported elsewhere, which would suggest a pension pot of £25m?
101

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 08:34:21
Fred Goodwin seems to be happy to be the Marie Antionette of the banking industry. Thousands of RBS employees worldwide are going to lose their jobs and many more times that number have seen their pension schemes, investments etc. hit by the collapse in the RBS share price while he collects a huge pension.

He has a delicate decision to make. Is the comfort and opulence in which he will be able to indulge worth being held in utter contempt by the vast majority of the public. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has to do a Ronnie Biggs and end up as morality exile.
102

,

27/02/2009 08:40:10
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103

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 08:40:14
Ugly George

And why would he give a fek? He won't be the only despised person in this country. After all, we habitually vote in despised people time and again into government.

As it happens, Fred Shredded jobs when he arrived, then created 000's more as the bank expanded. The new guy is the man that has the task of repeating history by shredding jobs again.

History will repeat itself but this time, the expansion of old will never happen again and the economy will grow very slowly, if at all.
104

,

27/02/2009 08:41:42
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105

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 27/02/2009 08:42:08
You'd better watch out Rufus, you are getting people starting to agree with you. You'll soon lose your status as a troll.
106

,

27/02/2009 08:43:21
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107

Sir Fred Goodwin,

27/02/2009 08:51:07
I'm in the mon-ee

Da da da da da....

Eat dirt peasants! I'm sorted for £
108

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 08:51:13
133 WeeBerty
"This guy should be put in gaol."

The laws on fraud are very complicated but there does appear to be a concern that RBS misled investors in the share issue last year and also misled the govt when it took up the share issue to bail out the company in the autumn.

I am sure most would welcome a thorough investigation into these share issues to determine if there is any aspect which could fraudulent.

109

Ulster Protestant,

27/02/2009 08:53:55
What a bunch of communist whingers. Sir Fref was Gordies best friend in the good times, now he is a scape goat. If he is to blame over the years of his tenure, what about the people that back him, lauded him to the skies et etc.

The man waived his year salary. The pension is his. Anyone who disagrees, should maybe focus on the real failures - Gordon Brown as Chanceller of UK PLC for 9 years - perhaps he should forgo his pension too?
110

tassiestag,

rosebery 27/02/2009 08:58:13
dinna worry fred il, get a skelpin
111

Buckfastleigh,

27/02/2009 08:59:33
And why should he pay anything back from his pension; if he does every single pensioner will end up in a similar way. This stinks of arbitrary bullying government and media whinge. Thank goodness for the rule of law!
112

Buckfastleigh,

27/02/2009 09:01:37
#81 is a repeater
113

SS,

27/02/2009 09:02:27
Since when did pension become linked to performance. He messed up last year and got no bonus because of it. It shouldn't impact his pension. Punter, populist politics from Brown et al.

Using this logic then surely Brown, as the master architect, should resign now and never receive another penny in his life for the damage he will have wreaked on UK plc.
114

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:04:26
133 Weeberty
PS
A lawsuit against RBS has been filed in the USA relating to the issue of ADR shares there in 2007. The suit has been filed under the 1933 securities act and relates (I think ) to the issue of these shares as a means of helping to pay for the purchase of ABN Amro. The charges seem to be similar to those I mentioned.

We can only surmise at this stage whether Fred Goodwin faces extradition to face these charges. Maybe that is why he wants to keep his pension. He might need it for his legal costs in defending himself.
115

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:06:11
Goodwin claims that Government ministers were fully aware of the terms of his early retirement back in October.

Darling now claims that they did not understand the full implications of the deal, and they were “told there was a contractual agreement between the board of the bank and Sir Fred.”

Told by whom?

This reeks of incompetence on the part of Darling and Brown.

Perhaps we should call for their pensions to be reduced.
116

Ugly George,

27/02/2009 09:06:13
140 Buckfastleigh
"Thank goodness for the rule of law!"

Absolutely - please see post 143
117

Scottie,

South Africa 27/02/2009 09:10:48
Just to refresh:
"'But why should he lose his pension?'
Because when a company goes bust the maximum pension an employee can receive is £20,000.
RBOS was only prevented from going bust because the taxpayer bailed them out.
That's why Fred should lose his pension."

The damage that he's done and is doing make him worth about 30 thousand a year, perhaps. If he's been a a director for many years are his income schedules available to show how much he's put away before this unsavoury mess? And if he went to Uni he probably didn't start working when he was 20 anyway :(
118

,

27/02/2009 09:13:34
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119

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 09:13:49
The government will "claw back" 40% of his pension since he will be in the super tax backet.

He will spend the rest in the Scottish economy.
120

James at Perth,

27/02/2009 09:15:59
Reports on Newsnight last night alleged former board members at RBS agreed severance terms with Goodwin privately, as they were empowered to do. This included the discretionary granting of an early pension. The allegation is that these former board members did not make it clear to ministers or civil servants at the time that discretion was involved in a now binding agreement. It seems the board that let down this once great Scottish bank was content to reward its Chief Executive for his abject failure before they quit too. What a cosy arrangement.
121

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:17:53
Its ironic that, in 2004, the Labour Government, recommended the former CEO of RBS for a knighthood "for services to banking"!
122

Scottie,

South Africa 27/02/2009 09:24:20
If he's only 50, there should have been an enormous 'penalty' for the 'early retirement' factor, specially as he's young enough to be in the 'Normal Retirement Age 65' group. Some bright newspaper reporter should do some investigation and get info on what his pension reserve/entitlement was before he started working for the RBOS. If he was a director of other companies, that info'd be in the 'public domain'.
123

Annlass,

Toronto 27/02/2009 09:25:41
#98 the only intelligent comment in rebuttal to the moron whose #1 position has produced about 100 kindergarten style responses. I know that the Scottish education system is to blame in turning out complaisance to all things real but if this is the strongest protest that the despot banker has to face he is home free. Everything that had to be said was said in yesterday's posts. God help Scotland if all of its men are panty waists.
124

daveboy,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:26:54
Its time to call a halt to this scapegoating for that is all it is.

It seems very convenient that this has come to prominence just as the losses / extra bailout are announced. Call me cynical but I think the two are linked.
125

Mike S,

27/02/2009 09:28:05
It's no use people bleating about the payments these USELESS BANKERS receive because they should not have been given the cotracts in the first place and the major shareholders and other board members are to blame. I think a lot of the uproar is that people are annoyedthat they allowed themselves to be conned and are embarrassed. But if we are not to reward failure what pension package should the cabinet have for overseeing the financial gluttony of the last few years?
126

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 09:28:23
#144 bully wee alba

The Government had a weekend to bail out RBOS otherwise it was going to go bust with enormous collateral damage to the economy.

That's about 48 hours.

Clearly someone of your intellectual and organisational brilliance could have done the job better but unfortunately for all of us you were too busy posting on here to do the job.

As it is, it looks as though not enough searching questions were asked about Fred's pension during those 48 hours. Perhaps there was a lack of candour on the part of Fred and the other directors. Perhaps there was an element of naivety on the part of those trying to save the bank and perhaps Fred will keep the money.

But however much it is it won't make up for his lose of reputation and what will now be a life long pariah status.

But as Homer says, there's no disgrace in being a pariah.
127

Doh,

27/02/2009 09:31:43


The government should introduce a windfall tax -
anyone gettign a pension over £100K/year pays 90% tax
if it being paid by a part-nationalised industry.
128

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:36:59
147 Democratic Scot"
Fred was a hero until he made the decision to buy ABNAMbro then it all went pear shaped.
Nobody saw that coming, was the excuse it came from America ,it was a global problem"

That is not actually the case. The takeover of ABN Amro started when Barclays made an offer . RBS then jumped in with a higher offer and Barclays walked away as they thought that the price was too high and decided not to get into a bidding war with RBS.

At the time many analysts voiced concerns that RBS was overextending itself and could end up in trouble. RBS ignored them and pressed on and the rest, as they say, is history. So it wasn't a case of "nobody saw this coming". If you read investment periodicals for the period 2007/08 you will see that the warnings were there.

Also, please see post 143. It appears that some feel (in the USA at least) that the way RBS raised finance for the takeover was a breach of the 1933 securities act.
129

Ugly George,

27/02/2009 09:42:12
157 cc58
"What really annoys me about the senior players in the UK Banking sector is their claim that because they are entrepreneurs (i.e. risk takers) they can justify the stupendous levels of bonuses. Now they claim external events for their failure and they still believe they qualify for bonuses because they did their jobs to the best of their ability."

Yes - if a comany does well it is because of the skills of the board (or so they assert). If it does badly, it is as a result of "difficult market conditions" 'twas ever thus
130

Fairfax,

27/02/2009 09:42:14
Ugly George (137): "I am sure most would welcome a thorough investigation into these share issues to determine if there is any aspect which could fraudulent."

I'm sure we'll see legal actions for at least the next 10-15 years. As I recall, BCCI was still providing lawyers with fees 15 years after its collapse, and this is much bigger.

One point concerning Goodwin: he could have been fired, rather than allowed to resign, in which case control over his future pension would presumably have been much stricter.
131

John S,

27/02/2009 09:45:41
The pension Fred Goodwin received has nothing to do with his performance at RBS but with the final salary pension scheme agreement which he had with the RBS and the rules governing the final salary pension scheme.

If a scheme member was allowed to start drawing their pension aged 50, they would usually expect to lose about half the value of their income. But it appears Fred has struck a deal whereby he keeps the full value and is able to draw the pension early.

Three quarters of final salary schemes have closed to new members in recent years. There are 7,800 such schemes in Britain including our MP's.
132

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 09:46:31
My Canadian agents have alerted me to an interview in the Globe and Mail with Naill Ferguson , he of The "Ascent of Money", on the BBC.

http://tinyurl.com/dzlao6

He is a Professor at Harvard, but then Gordon Broon was a "sort of" historian too.

133

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 09:51:24
160 Fairfax
"I'm sure we'll see legal actions for at least the next 10-15 years."

You are probably right and lawyers will probably replace bankers as the supreme "fat-cats"
134

The Strategist,

27/02/2009 09:51:27
Crash created and supported the conditions in which a Goodwin could come to the fore.
135

Stan Butler,

27/02/2009 09:51:41
#160 Fairfax

'One point concerning Goodwin: he could have been fired, rather than allowed to resign,'


He would have sued if he'd been sacked.

With hindsight perhaps he could and should have been sacked though that would have left a lot of issues unresolved and the Government couldn't afford that.

The clock was ticking and a deal had to be done otherwise the bank was a gonner.

The immorality here is that Fred and his associates bust the bank and then put a shotgun to the Government's head by jeopardising the rescue plan unless their personal severance terms were agreed.
136

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 09:55:41
61
Charles Linskaill,
Edinburgh 27/02/2009 00:55:41

You are living your life in reverse, just like Orson Welles.

Your paying your purgatory today so that others may live in their Heaven today.

It will all sort itself out after you are dead.

Rejoice, enjoy your beans and be uplifted.
137

Marian,

27/02/2009 09:56:08
Could it be that Sir Fred Goodwin's overly generous pension pay-off was his price for keeping his silence on what really led to RBS taking the risks it took i.e. Gordon Brown's failure to introduce any form of meaningful regulation over the 'wheelers and dealers' in the City of London, so that a select few become very rich on multi-million pound salaries and bonuses, gained by taking investment risks with other people's savings and pension funds and helping bring down some previously solid businesses.
138

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27/02/2009 10:08:09
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139

St.George,

27/02/2009 10:17:56
What a arrogant twonker freddie boy is,he should be taken to court.
140

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

Squatting doon in a high street near you.. 27/02/2009 10:18:10
Gordon Brown and his inept cabale of crooked. weak bladdered imbiciles must go.
141

blackley,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 10:18:22
Why the hell should he be made to pay back a dime? It's in his contract for god's sake! If he feels morally bound to pay it back or renounce his pension altogether then so much the nbetter but let's not start breaking contracts. that's a very dangerous road to go down.
142

Churchill W.,

27/02/2009 10:23:14
Goodwin's pension pot was not built up over a 30 year career. It was doubled just five months ago as part of his agreement to stand down from RBS. The board at RBS were wrong to double his pension pot, but, what the hell they were all leaving anyway. They were basically snubbing the people of this country, sticking two fingers up, exactly what the sleazy parasite Goodwin is doing now.
Goodwin is a pariah and should be told to get out of the UK, he's not needed here, or, wanted.
GET OUT GOODWIN!


143

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 10:23:45
Lining his own pockets with £16M pension fund and leaving a £25Bn loss in his wake, aside, Fred will probably be in The Big Brother House before we know it and hosting Have I Got (Bad Financial)News for You. The media love a disgraced celebritit.



144

Munguin,

27/02/2009 10:24:53
I can't say that I agree with Sir Freds pension entitlement or his stance on handing it back.

But on the positive side another egg in the face of Brown and Darling, they must both be used to the taste of shoe leather by now. Even better than a Scottish PM bailing out a Scottish Bank with as the English will see it their money. Now a Scottish PM & Chancellor are letting the Scot that wrecked that bank have a huge and vulgar payout and they knew about it and agreed to it. And now that Scot absolutley refuses to hand any back. How tarnished does the Scottish reputation have to get before the English vote for our independence for us?
145

Doh,

27/02/2009 10:25:07
#173 blackley

Because he contract is fraudulent.
The bankers that agreed to it conducted economic terrorism against the state by committing public money to reward failure.

So basically you are saying all the bankers should give themselves fantastic salaries and pensions in teh sure knowledge that the taxpayer will pick up the tab?
Which planet are you on? Sorry I am not that generous.


They should all have their assets seized under the Terrorism laws - and be questioned for 40 days without charge.

The simple solution is for the government to introduce windfall taxes - anyone drawing more than say £100K/year pension from a part-publically owened insitiution is liable for a 90% fatcat tax.

We dont need to break his outrageous contract we just need some political leadership.

146

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27/02/2009 10:25:45
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Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 27/02/2009 10:25:49
Goodwin must stand firm against Brown's thugs , Brown is just engaging in desperate cheap vote-grabbing . Fred has done nothing wrong in claiming this CONTRACTUAL pension . Will Brown give up some of HIS pension ?. Brown is the one who engineered the whole banking crisis through brainwashing people the economy was great when it was clearly otherwise . Brown induced the whole credit boom on a fraudulent lie .
148

Otis B. Wooddrift,

Freedonia 27/02/2009 10:26:00
#13
"Should we repossess his house as well, and throw his wife and kids out onto the street?"

Actually you are being totally disigenuous here. SFG is never going to end up homeless. No, his home won't be repossessed, only the 'little' people should lose out, obviously.

SFG deserves all the opprobrium being thrown his way but if this is his punishment for his involvement then Brown the CLown should be in jail.
149

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/02/2009 10:26:12
The Government's complicity in this fiasco has become painfully transparent. Running a whelk stall might prove to be just above their limitations and that could be in insult to whelk stall owners.

Sir Fred may well have earned a percentage of his pension which would have accrued from previous allegedly successful business experience, but clearly his last run in RBS has produced a calamitous result, not as a result of "global events" as Brown would have it but sheer hubris and gung-ho recklessness. So any pension earned by way of RBS ought to be very little or nothing. The fact that the board decided to double his pension and award it early shows that around 50% of it must be discretionary and that at least must be refunded. A nice, cosy arrangement by the board there who obviously knew the game was up and were out for what they could get - a continuation of previous behaviour.

However Brown and Darling's empty threat of legal proceedings is too little too late. Unless he can come up with some other sanction Sir Fred will continue to wave two fingers in the air to all of us.

Now can we please have Brown's resignation and pension reduction since he instigated the whole ethos of "light touch" regulation and was a major architect of bank failure? Not just RBS.
150

St.George,

27/02/2009 10:27:53
173. So in your opinion goodwin deserves his pension! That's ok then,would you like to tell that to the thousands of people who lost money thanks to freddie boy.
151

legless,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 10:39:46
Very good of Sir Fred to give us an example of the outrageous greed that got us into this mess in the first place.
152

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 10:45:41
Do you think the government will tax his pension at 40% since he is in the super tax bracket?

Wonder if he will spend any of his cash in Scotland on things like food/booze, clothes and other stuff?
153

,

27/02/2009 10:45:52
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,

27/02/2009 10:49:11
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Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 10:50:14
WeeBert

Well luckily you have the option to be proud to be British. That'll help your shame a wee bit.
156

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27/02/2009 10:52:01
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,

27/02/2009 10:52:47
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Observer,,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 10:53:50
What's the big deal. He was a boss. The majority of them can retire at 60 with a final salary pension scheme 25 times the average wage. They accrue these benefits on average twice as fast as the rest of us. The average pension for the top 100 directors is in the region of £333,000. He's not just sticking two fingers up at us now, they all do it, all the time.

If he had been sacked, or if RBS had been taken into proper state ownership as a result of going bust, then he wouldn't receive these benefits. But then that would have opened the doors to a full examination of what went wrong here, and we can't have that.
159

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27/02/2009 10:55:47
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From this Flower , safety,

London. 27/02/2009 10:56:11
That any should seek and be awarded a pension the size of his highlights some of the problems at the core capitalist system . He will receive in one year what a normal person might , if lucky , expect to receive in thirty .There is ofcourse no alternative to capitalism but that it permits such wanton greed is immoral , if not criminal . I do hope that in the changed circumstances of RBS a legal way can be found to prevent this pension being paid . Unless there is a correction in the system , such as highlighted by the Goodwin debacle , I can forsee civil unrest .
161

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 10:57:23
189

One you fudd. How many are you using?
162

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27/02/2009 10:57:47
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163

Shape to Shoot,

27/02/2009 10:58:26
I'm no expert on the subject, but I am aware that in certain circumstances the directors can be held personally liable for the debts of a company.

I don't think you need to go as far as actually proving criminal conduct on the part of the directors...gross negligence or suchlike is enough for personal liability to arise.

It would be interesting to hear from any CAs or corporate lawyers as regards whether there is any potential for seeking redress by taking this approach.
If it worked, not only would we have this turkey's £16m pension fund, but everything the guy owns.
164

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 27/02/2009 10:58:42
185 - do you SERIOUSLY believe the Govt had no warnings , no knowledge of this crisis before the ballon went up ? Why do you think Blair quit when he did ? Could Brown's running away from an election have been because it might come to light during the campaign ? Brown has clearly given up on winning nest year so is trying to wreck the country for David Cameron . I also think the Govt started this story to divert attention away from Cameron's unfortunate child's death .
165

,

27/02/2009 10:58:52
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166

,

27/02/2009 11:00:37
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167

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 11:00:42
197

What lies fudd boy? This is interesting, never been accused of being a troll before (since I've never been one).

C'mon then fudd, tell me where you're going with this?
168

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 11:01:20
198

what's wrong fudd boy, got a problem? Excellent, a fudd to pick on for the rest of the day.
169

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 27/02/2009 11:02:20
195 - directors are liable if they continue a company to trade when they know , or ought to have known , it is insolvent . This is a very grey area . If a company's auditors think there is a chance it might not be a going concern then they are obliged to state that in their report. There was no such comment in any banks .
170

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 11:03:27
c'mon WeeFudd, who else am I?
171

,

27/02/2009 11:05:13
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172

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 11:06:43
DemocraticScot

Ok, you are my voice of reason. All he need do is phone up the Scotsman and check out my IP address.

But I suppose being a WeeFudd, he wouldn't think of that.
173

,

27/02/2009 11:07:14
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174

shrek4,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 11:11:03
Come on, how many other Fred Goodwins are there out there who milked it over the past decade?!
Like many others he played the game - the govt set the rules.
Blame the rule makers!
175

Freedum, noo!,

27/02/2009 11:12:43
It's a true reflection on Alex Salmond's personal failings that he supports Fred Goodwin. He is as bad as Brown in his support for greedy fat cats.
176

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 27/02/2009 11:13:56
He's a right arrogant 1 that fred guy eh? He will get his comeuppance without a doubt he is far too obnoxious not to. But Gordon Brown and his cronies should be made to pay for this as they are more at fault that some twit with the luck o the irish and the gift o the gab...
177

Tartan Viking,

27/02/2009 11:15:21
#1 Roofarse you are an idiot.

"He built his pension up over many years as a successful banker."

When are you going to realise that when the bank discovered the extent of the toxic debt it had, it means that previous successful years were not actually successful at all. The write down they made actually relates to this and previous years, so the so called profits in previous years were in fact losses.

To if Sir Fred Greedwin "built his pension up over many years as a successful banker." he should now be paying it back, because his success is actually a fallacy. A bit like you Roofarse.
178

,

27/02/2009 11:16:20
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179

Shape to Shoot,

27/02/2009 11:20:34
201

In Scotland, we off-course have civil juries.

Now, the case against this fella would only need to be stateable in law....the quality of the argument wouldn't need to be that good : as long as it had a basic logic that was supported in law.

Nomatter how much doubt hung over the question of whether he should be held personally liable, I don't believe that there's a jury in the land which would not find against him.

But it wouldn't need to go that far. Once he realised that his future rested on the whim of a civil jury at the court of session in Edinburgh, he WILL want to negotiate. No doubt about it.
180

AJ Fife,

27/02/2009 11:24:41
There's a silver lining to every cloud, and Goodwin will be worth every penny if he helps pull down the dispicable Broon and all his cohorts.

He's certainly provided an enviroment that has proved the Westminister Govt is as toothless as a 1 day old baby!
181

,

27/02/2009 11:26:59
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182

therevd,

Vientiane 27/02/2009 11:27:51
I think that people are being too harsh on "Fred the shred". Surely he has negotiated this pension because some people reckon he deserves it. They of course are wrong, he doesn't. However "Sir Fred' must surely now be laughing all the way to the bank or from it? Puzzling isn't it? So I say, take your money Sir Fred and repay your debt to society by spending the rest of your life doing community service, while wearing a pink tutu and carrying a large sign with the words: "I lost 24.1 billion pounds, if anyone finds it, please don't give it back to me, as I have quite enough stashed away already. Give it to the people who won't now be able to receive adequate health care or education etc. Thank you."
Hope this helps.
183

Daniel21,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 11:29:53
Nice job getting that much i would be Delirious with it hahhahahahaha
184

Shape to Shoot,

27/02/2009 11:32:39
212

And pray tell what is the alternative to labour ?

The tories with their 'hush don't say a word about policy' ?

The tories are doing very nicely in the polls by saying very little...this government is digging its own grave, so why take the risk of setting out clear policies ?

Remember, the tories were pressing this government for LESS regulation of banks only two years ago. Yes, what regulation there was proved inadequate, and indeed , the FSA claims that there was pressure on them not to be too rigourous in their approach.

Gordon Brown I think should go...he just doesn't have the personality for leadership.

However, I find the idea that the tories offer an improving alternative quite ludicrous.
185

Jdavidson,

edinburgh 27/02/2009 11:36:51
well now I know why we in so much trouble if people like him are getting money like that there way someone get that much I hate to think what else he is doing with the money
186

AJ Fife,

27/02/2009 11:37:21
#216,

The Tories would provide an interesting foe for Mr Salmond and the team, and with the correct political manipulation, the battle could bring proper autonomy to our nation sooner than expected.

As I said, every cloud......
187

,

27/02/2009 11:41:13
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188

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 27/02/2009 11:43:09
My tuppence worth then, well Fred has a legal right to this money, it was in the RBS accounts again nobody in the treasury seems to have the ability to read and digest information before going off one one, should we be surprised?

Morally I think most of us would agree the size of the sum is wrong in the circumstances.

What I think has happened is that Baron Foy has used this as a buffer against the RBS liabilities taken on by the taxpayer and the pension problems of the royal mail.

The Prince of Darkness indeed.
189

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 27/02/2009 11:43:44
#9 TO THE RTF LOUD MOUTH!

NOTHING ILLEGAL?

IRRESPONSIBLE LENDING IS ILLEGAL!

SUB-PRIME LENDING,BROKING AND DEPT ADMINISTRATION AGENTS ARE ASKED TO PROVIDE A CREDIT RISK PROFILE AND MAY BE VISITED BY THE OFT/CREDIT COMPETENCE TEAMS.

LETS GET THE FULL FACTS ON THIS STORY,IF SIR FRED IS THE BOSS HE SHOULD THEN CARRY THE CAN AND BE SACKED (NOT ALLOWED TO WALK AWAY SCOT FREE) WITH ALL LOSS OF PENSION RIGHTS ETC.

SO COME THE SCOTSMAN GET STUCK IN!

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
190

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 27/02/2009 11:44:13
Also Ian Gray was bloody terrible at FMQ's, trying to pin this on Mathewson how typical.
191

Matt there,

Somewhere 27/02/2009 11:52:33
The government negotiated with Sir Fred what he could have. Then they tried to renage on it.

That is unethical.

That's the crux of the matter. The level of pension is not relevant to this.
192

wee weegie,

27/02/2009 11:56:25
There is something absolutely obscene with the whole issue. In West Lothian the average wage is around £22K and falling, and less than 56% of the population earns the average wage. Yet this guy has a pension, already, and will no doubt become a director or consultant. The average working person won't earn his yearly pension in almost their entire working life.

The guy should be barred from becoming a director but no doubt his cronies will get him a job. 2days a week and earing about £150K on top of his pension.
193

Tris,

27/02/2009 11:56:57
174, Churchill.

Spot on. From what I can make out of the many articles I've read, this was not even a contributory pension and it was, indeed, doubled in a deal that saw Goodwin give up his year's salary (for notice) and about 3 months' salary in addition. So Fred gave up his £1.25 million or thereby in salary, and got instead his massive pension doubled AND paid from the age of 50, where 60 is the minimum age normally.

Interestingly, the Minister for the City, who is not a politician but an appointed member of the aristocracy, was, it appears, complicit in this deal, although his excuse for the fiasco was that he was rushed that week-end and didn't know about the discretionary element. (So much for the expertise of the Houise of Peers.)

There will now be around 200,000 other members of the staff who will be paid off. Can we expect the Noble and Honourable Lord to oversee such generous deals for them? Or don't they know where the bodies are buried?
194

Brideun,

Culloden 27/02/2009 11:58:01
Nick Leeson took a position ( bet ) on currencies that went wrong and brought down Barings for which he got locked up, Nick got nicked! Surely the Fred Goodwin situation is almost identical, he took a bet on a position that also went wrong and brought down RBS so why has he not had his collar felt. If both had been right then they would have been heroes despite using other people's money but they lost and have to suffer the consequences.
195

Tris,

27/02/2009 12:01:37
176.

Munguin has a good point.

If I were English I'd want rid of Scotland as soon as possible and before the Scottish PM and the Scottish chancellor poured the entire economy into these two Scottish Banks.

OK.... we all know that that's not really how it is, but it must look like that to "Disguster of Tunbridge Wells"!
196

Tris,

27/02/2009 12:03:28
227. Fred did it with the consent of the Board Brideun.

As I see it, that is the difference.
197

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 27/02/2009 12:03:41
Let's say there was a public sector fat-cat who had wasted taxpayers money and had a similar pension . Would we hear howls from Labour ? This episode is Labour at it;s worst , trying to remove David Camerons child from the headlines .
198

MacFadyin,

Netherlands 27/02/2009 12:10:19
I'd like to know which bank he's putting his stash in. Probably a safer bet for my pension than RBS or HBOS.

He's walking argument that the top rate of income tax should be 100%
199

lachlan,

27/02/2009 12:10:23
people in government and most political parties seem to have been watching what was going on at the banks and not a cheep was heard untill the proverbial s**t hit the fan. these pension payments are obscene even if sir fred was the greatest banker going and people in high places should have looking at this long before now.
i wonder how many people with lower pensions would fair if the precident was set if you were cr*p at your job your pension was reduced
200

blackley,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 12:10:47
#177 Doh.
"...conducted economic terrorism" won't stand up in court I'm afraid. It's your own strongly worded opinion to which you are entitled.
All I am saying is that contracts have to be honoured. it's the basis of our system. You may not agree with that system but it has the backing of law and any contest to Goodwin has to be conducted in the courts - not in the press or the televised media.
201

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27/02/2009 12:12:19
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202

Ulster Protestant,

27/02/2009 12:12:55
Fred,

Enjoy your retirement. Forget the muppets and the hype. You were well respected when things went well. Your pension reflects that period.

Forget the pea brained thinkers that are jealous. Corporate Governance means you passed hoops and loops, and the FSA before embarking on the routes that RBS took. It is one thing to be ambitious and present the options, its another for extraordinary meetings of shareholders to approve them. Effectively, you led RBS to the water, they drank.


And RBS corporately, must suffer the consequences, with the benefit of hindsight that clearly nobody had.
203

Boab1,

27/02/2009 12:14:11
Well said Fred Goodwin. If this was negotiated by the government's own ministers then everything is above board. The basic fact of the matter is that people are finally waking up to the fact that the government is as much to blame for this as anyone with their inadequate regulatory system. If I was Fred I may agree to take a cut so long as the previous chancellor and now prime minister agreed to do the same. This is all about diversion.

As has been said before, RBS's predicament is almost entirely due to their acquisition of ABN Amro. But for that one decision the bank would still be in reasonably good health. Goodwin had nine good years and it all went wrong at the end.

I'm not saying the pension situation is right, but I do object to him being made a scapegoat when as much of the blame lies elsewhere, with the Labour govt.
204

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 12:14:47
#216 Shape to Shoot

I think that oppositions don't win elections, incumbents lose the.

Cameron really is a wimp and has had innumerable open goals but has not even hit the woodwork.

The hope of the SNP and the Conservatives is that Broon stays and keeps a tight hold on the tiller of the Ship of State.

Onwards right onto the rocks, at full speed.

Standy by for the food riots and mass disobedience of 2010 swiftly followed by the Civil Contingencies Act and suspension of Parliament.

Only joking, well maybe.
205

,

27/02/2009 12:17:50
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206

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 27/02/2009 12:18:05
Demo Scot@ 234 I think that is the main story I said earlier that this story about SFG has the hallmark of Baron Foy.

Now on the BBC it is reported that GB has threatened the use of legal action, the laddie cannot stop digging himself into a deeper hole.
207

Tris,

27/02/2009 12:18:50
When Clarkson describe Brown as a one-eyed Scottish idiot, the Noble Baron Ffoules was quick to describe it as "an outrage of the worst possible kind".

So where's Rent a Quote Ffoulkes now. Has he nothing to say about the complicity of one of his aristocratic Labour colleagues in this deal? Surely an outrage of an even worse possible kind your honourable nobleness, huh? Or is this his day for expence form filling?
208

Tris,

27/02/2009 12:19:33
ouch "expense"
209

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 12:20:17
#196
Voice of reason,
EDINBURGH 27/02/2009 10:58:42

A good SOCO would be able to identify the Gordon's DNA from the snot all over the documents,files, e-mails and telephone calls concerning every financial fwuck up that has taken place during his tenure of Nos 10 and 11 Drowning Street.
210

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:24:35
How exactly are the Government going to get out of a deal agreed to by all parties, including a government "expert"? Why not pass a special act of parliament? It could be called the: get Sir Fred Goodwins pension back after we agreed to it but didn't know what we were doing Act. It could be started in their noble, gracious and toadying lickspittal's House by either his graciousness of Hartley Poole, Foy and expensive Russian Billionairs yachts in the Med or by his gracious, nuclear, large brown envelope and outragedness of Ffoulkes
211

,

27/02/2009 12:24:58
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212

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:28:48
240 Tris

How dare you say that about a member of our dear and beloved House of Peers! And especially one as hounrable and well adjusted as Baron von-nuclear. All I can say is: ITS AN OUTRAGE OF THE WORST POSSIBLE KIND!
213

e-sterka,

27/02/2009 12:33:25
# 242

what do you think, shall I send him Mr. Bean? He is crazy enough. What do you think, Will he know if I send him different photo? Without my face? What do you think? I knew Cody. He was a good pupil. Your pupil.
But we have never met already. Just once. And do you know why?
214

European Scot,

27/02/2009 12:33:29
Why is Is this being called a pension as such ? Has a sum of money actually been invested which is yielding 650,000 pounds per annum ?
If so it must be a pretty spectacular lump sum that can return that level of annuity, even under the most perfect economic circumstances.
It's an absolute miracle in today's market.
I was due to get my own private pension last December, a tiny fraction of this one.
The advice given was to delay taking it for a couple of years or so, as its value had fallen because of the financial crisis, the plummet in share values, etc.
How is it possible under the current downturn, for someone like Sir Fred Goodwin to be waltzing off with a pension of £650,000 a year ?
If there ever was a lump sum invested for his pension haven't the same market conditions, and fall in value of shares affected its value in any way, or is this a special wee ' pension' deal that's not available to we mortals ?!
215

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:35:17
The nats are really enjoying this! They seem to think (wrongly)that if a general election is called cameron would be more sympathetic to the snp cause. David Cameron is more of a unionist than Brown,as for goodwin he's on a hiding to nothing.
216

e-sterka,

27/02/2009 12:36:44
Just once. I meet him. But it was beautiful. I wanted to meet him again.
217

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:38:24
246. What a stupid a=se you are. Go and play with your snp train set mate.
218

e-sterka,

27/02/2009 12:38:47
Really and to get first kiss...
219

Al,

27/02/2009 12:38:54
Whether or not he is entitled to this pension, I think the Queen should be stripping him of his knighthood for his recent performance.
220

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:39:21
249 I think we relise that cameron is just as pro-union, but the point is if he forms a government he will at best only have David Mundell as his sole Scottish MP and so his nasty right wing policies will be forced on all Scots and that way lies independence.
221

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:40:30
255. Do shut up you sound like a petulant child.
222

Winters,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 12:42:15
I suppose Sir Fred has already left the country and is in hiding somewhere.
I think the real cause of the catastrophe was that the bosses of RBS and HBOS were each vying to be top dog in the British banking industry and not unlike drug addicts, they took insane risks.
223

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:42:20
256. What a ignoramous you are! David Cameron is certainly NOT right wing.
224

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:43:43
259. Typical snp retoric,all mouth and little else.
225

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:44:56
258. Go to hell.
226

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:45:32
261 Oh no he's slighty to the left of Lenin
227

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:46:52
The point about Cameron is we don't know where he stands do we. He wont open his mouth and articulate a policy as he is afraid he will put his foot in it and spoil his chances of becoming PM.
228

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:47:33
264. And 12,000 plus have lost their life savings.
229

Munguin,

27/02/2009 12:48:08
261 Oh and thanks for explaining his position in you post BTW most illuminating, no at least we know his in "not right wing"
230

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:48:55
266. You can rest assured given the chance i will gladly do just that.
231

malcyh,

27/02/2009 12:49:18
The Governemnt have messed up pure and simple and are trying to deflect the flak they would get.
Remeber Sir Fred was backed by the Board and the Shareholders to do the deals, so get down off your high horses.
The FSA didn't reel anyone in and they are sharing a pot of £21m in bonuses. One trusts Gordon Brown will be asking for that back? Jacqui Smith claiming allowances for her own house. Illegal no - Immoral yes. Sir fred's pension Illegal no - Immoral perhaps.
232

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:49:57
270. So how in hell can you defend freddie boy.
233

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:52:31
274. Slight prob,i'm in England but you new that already hence the bravery.
234

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:55:37
I hope Fred keeps his pension, not because he deserves it but basically to stick his fingers up at Brown. need i say more, but i will then you said this; Why ? why would he be hiding ? Good luck to the guy, 12,000 people are employed in Edinburgh and the lothians thanks to him. If Gordon Brown had not gone along with the Banks and create Boom and Bust then we would not be discussing this.
235

St.George,

27/02/2009 12:57:33
278. Are you as thick as you make out! St. George,just may have given you a slight clue.
236

Ulster Protestant,

27/02/2009 13:00:03
258 - The Queen is a catholic, but not a papist. It is papists that are rightly barred from marrying into the Royal Family.
237

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:01:06
#282 - St Dode - - to be fair you could equaly be an Englishman in Scotland.

Pitty about you not getting your day though. Must be bad having your national pride stiffled.



238

RufusT-Firefly,

27/02/2009 13:05:22
209 Tartan Viking,27/02/2009 11:15:21
When are you going to realise that when the bank discovered the extent of the toxic debt it had, it means that previous successful years were not actually successful at all. The write down they made actually relates to this and previous years, so the so called profits in previous years were in fact losses.
====================================================

What absolute Garbage.

Another nutter making things up and passing them off as fact.

RBS's biggest problem was the purchase of ABN AMRO.

That only happened just over a year ago.

Prior to that RBS was a successful and profitable bank.

How you can say the previous years were not successful is beyond any right thinking minds.

The massive dividends they paid to shareholders and pension funds along with Billions of pounds paid to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a testament to that.

By your flawed reckoning, if Manchester United do not win the Champions League this year, then Alex Ferguson should be sacked and we should strip him of his earnings over the last 20 years in which he has won various European trophies and countless league titles.
239

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:06:10
#284 - Are you Ian paisley perchance? Just icognito without the TEXT TURNED ON FULL FOR FULL SHOUTEY EFFECT! PERHAPS IT'S AM2 , HIS NEPHEW/ LOVE CHILD
240

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:08:53
spook , hoos poos, "He is infact a she in Edinburgh.. http://www.st-georges.edin.sch.uk/ Nice specks mmm"

Youve been hanging around Subrosa too long dood. Milf will ruin your life son. if the gargoyle at the top of the page is anything to go by then youve gone as low as you can go.
241

St.George,

27/02/2009 13:10:15
286. Why should a wind-up twonker get an apology.
242

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:11:46
#294 are you the gargoyle guarding that page?

Hows the cobwebs?
243

St.George,

27/02/2009 13:12:37
292. Another wind-up troll!
244

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:14:07
#296 - if you consider that at the top of the page as "nice stats mmmmmm......" then I would if I was you!

I reckon rosa should take you in as a lodger.Remember granton star cause? The mum and dad....

Hoos Poos , over and oot!

Appologies subrosa :-)
245

Green,

27/02/2009 13:14:50
Rufus T Firefly

He built his pension up over many years as a successful banker.

But he doubled it as an unsuccessful*anker.
246

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:15:06
:-)
247

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 27/02/2009 13:16:11
Keep your pension rights Sir Fred,however make one proviso that you will reconsider when the theiving B......s in the Government give back their ill gotten gains from expenses,junkets ,free nhousing increased pension etc etc etc
248

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:18:22
#303 - rosas for some extensive therapy and over 50 kinkyness will sort you out and make you a happy monk.......

PAX Brother.......
249

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:21:18
Here, St Dode, How do you feel when Scotland celebrates it's national heroes and patron saints? Burns, St Andrew ? Do you go and huddle around a candle for your day begrudgingly congratulating people?

Nice flying foot at the st georges day event in the square btw, I am sure thee 100 people enjoyyed it immensely.

Could explain your grumpy streak.
250

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:22:14
#306 - no leaving her freezing and budgie doing it! granny abuse is a serious crime.
251

St.George,

27/02/2009 13:23:44
304. For starters pet i'm a guy! what could you possibly miss,your as sharp as a lettuce leaf.
252

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:25:17
# yer grannies freezin!
253

St.George,

27/02/2009 13:26:56
307. What are you rambling about!
254

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:28:12
St Dode, your ignoring me as much as your citizens ignore you.

All I wanted was an answer to the question on how you feel when Scotland celebrates it's patron saints and your passed by?
255

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:32:06
#313 - St Dode, glad you aknowledge it btw ;-) , All I am saying is while Scotland has pride as it's own nation and venerates and reveres it's past hero's, England seems to ignore hers and gets embarassed. Would it not be better the English knew and accepted their own identity without being forced to adhere to a made up construct. Then you may have pride in your nation Like the People of Scotland has theirs.

256

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:34:40
#313 - St Dode - I suspect my reply at 315 went over you're head and you may need to go back into the fields with your ferrets and whippets to ponder the response.

257

Hugh Roscombe,

27/02/2009 13:35:01
"Gordon Brown has repeated his threat of legal action against ex-Royal Bank of Scotland chief Sir Fred Goodwin over his "unacceptable" £16m pension." - BBC

That means he can keep it then.
258

Mantelbrucke,

Aff ma heid 27/02/2009 13:35:59
There is one thing nobody owns up to. There is a fundamental error in assumption. Bean counters (aka Fred) were trained to count beans, not make them. The assumption that because you can count and do some fancy bookkeeping means that you can run a business is the prime reason why the business structure in the UK went bust. A few pointers to all of you moaners. Dont accumulate debt. Dont assume that a 5% mortgage rate is a good deal (its 2-3% in Switzerland and has been for ever). Dont trust accountants and dont let them think they know better. Save some of your money and dont speculate.
259

Housenatters,

just left of morningside- 27/02/2009 13:42:41
How many prime ministers can you get for a goodwin Pension?

`maths suggest 3.6 people per annum..

How Many schools-for 16Million.

4 Primary two streams or
1 secondary/community school
How many affordable Homes-for 16 Million

145
260

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27/02/2009 13:43:30
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261

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:48:38
#320 - your a bit creepy.
262

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 13:50:55
#320 - Churchhill - for a hobby do you follow children home from school also?
263

redcliffe62,

27/02/2009 13:52:11
i read goodwin's letter, in which he explained his pension was primarily made up of monies outside rbs, which he did a good job on i guess as everybody was doing well in the 90's.
if he gave up ayear's salary and other perks then he did more than most, jacqui smith take note.
if the labour party as a whole in brussels and london gave up all their perks and allowances "in the national interst" and then asked him to do the same, it would not be the utter tripe as a suggestion it now comes across as.
leaking the details into the public domain after saying they would not do so was classic labour.
you have to admire their dishonesty, it is all they have left.
264

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27/02/2009 13:52:27
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265

redcliffe62,

27/02/2009 13:54:12
churchill, great name, are you related to winston, or in light of your apparent educational prowess perhaps willie churchill the crack dealer down sighthill road?
266

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 13:54:15
320 You're losing the plot there Churchill, your previous comments on the article @ 174 was very apt.

Gonna get back to the point ?
267

S T,

edinburgh 27/02/2009 13:56:05
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zeph. 1:18
268

Green,

27/02/2009 13:57:39
He earned half as a successful banker.

And the other half as an unsucessful * anker
269

,

27/02/2009 13:58:39
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270

,

27/02/2009 14:00:42
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271

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:02:32
Churchhill, "Zionist transplant " on all occassions I have found spook open to all people. You on the other hand are a rabid little Englander, And your ignorance and lack of knowledge on most Scottish related subjects is woeful.

Why don't you toodle of old boy.
272

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:03:34
#330 really? Pray tell old bean.
273

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:05:08
Churchhill - Now I am spook is that what your saying? cannot win the argument like SNP hypocrisy yesterday so start a childish rant? Yo ureally need to lay of the gin and cough syrup.
274

Hugh Roscombe,

27/02/2009 14:06:19
Churchill

They call him "Follow the sweetie trail"
275

Churchill W.,

27/02/2009 14:06:27
Observer,, # 326

I agree with you that one should not be distracted from the point by venomous, but, ultimately insignificant creatures.

I agree with John Prescott that Goodwin should be stripped of a very large portion of his pension and if he wants to make an issue of it, exposing his massive greed, he should have to sue for its restitution.
I wonder how Goodwin's family feel knowing that he is a pariah?
276

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:08:41
"Churchill -They call him "Follow the sweetie trail"

given the way he acts I suspect he gets his kicks from withdrawing the offer of sweets just to watch them cry.

His other hobbies are morris Dancing and Classic German LAdies dresses and vehicles of the reich.
277

Hugh Roscombe,

27/02/2009 14:13:35
Wendy

You missed out "Founder Member of the Gary Glitter Fan Club."
278

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 14:14:49
Hmmm, let me see. £600 million for security for a sports event in London, £500 million for an infrastucture for a captial city going forward and £650,000 per year to keep a secret (the secret being that Fred is being bought as a scapegoat for Broon's incomptetance).

Cash well spent all in all.
279

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:16:00
#337 -Hugh - Goes without saying. I reckon he's a travel rep to vietnam. Certainly acts a bit like one.
280

Wendy - Lend us a TENA (laydee),

27/02/2009 14:18:25
#338 dave you missed out the 15-20 billion crossrail!
281

Afromonkey,

27/02/2009 14:42:38
Goodwin is a bank robber, period. Not only should he be stripped of his "pension" - take away his knighthood too, FFS!
282

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27/02/2009 14:52:49
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283

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 27/02/2009 14:52:59
Yes, clap him in irons! Demolish his house! Persecute his family! Parade him naked through the streets! Bring back hanging! Publically flog him!

In the mean time, the REAL robber continues to run the country.......FFS!
284

JulesF,

Kirkliston 27/02/2009 14:53:15
I'd like to see his pension fund recalculated :

Based on the RBS share price before the ABN takeover, had the fund been invested in RBS shares, what would it be worth today ? 10% is a rough guess.

That would give a 60K per year pension and wipe the smug grim from the evil gits face !
285

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27/02/2009 14:57:15
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286

,

27/02/2009 15:03:06
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287

tommy,

belfast uk 27/02/2009 15:05:00
Quote...SIR Fred Goodwin, the former Royal Bank of Scotland boss, has refused to surrender his £650,000-a-year pension,...Unquote

Good man Sir Fred-- I wouldn't either--just on principle you understand
288

Radge from the West,

glasgow 27/02/2009 15:17:38
It's a real shame that the voters are so easily led by a bunch of serial incompetent politicians and so easily distracted away from the reality.
All the media have readily joined the witchhunt against Goodwin and should hang their heads in shame.
The Banker was just one of the Cheerleaders encouraged by Blair and Brown to take us into the American South Sea Bubble.
The village idiot never mind the Whistleblowers knew it would come to grief and yet,incredibly the national obsession is with a pension of £693,000 considering that RBS,just one bank, has posted losses of over £24,000,000,000 and there is a toxic debt out there of at least £237,000,000,000 coming our way.
The way Goodwin is in the story in the headlines is the greatest Spin of all time and it strengthens my belief that democracies get and deserve what they vote for.
Brown must go immediately,The Commons to free vote for a Leader to take over until next year's General Election is legally due,and Vince Cable and Kenneth Clarke to stand alongside Darling on equal footing running the Treasury.
We are in a slow car crash and Prudence Brown is responsible.
289

JayTee,

Doon the Watter 27/02/2009 16:09:22
Speaking as a long-time RBS shareholder (who would have voted to shred Fred if given the chance), and as a taxpayer who's helping fund Gordon Broon's 'saving' of the world banking system, I do think all this hoo-hah over Fred Goodwin's pension pot is a tad hypocritical and definitely a smokescreen to cover HM Govt's 'big riddie' over being lumbered with RBS's losses.
Anyway, if it's OK for Lord Myners (who he?) to ask Fred to play nice and give back half (all?) his pension pot, maybe the same rule should apply to Govt ministers who cozied up to these *ankers for years, and the Treasury experts who watched the RBS/HBoS train wreck happen without lifting an eyebrow. And MPs and MEPs while we're at it. Nane the waur o' a guid hinging!
290

Ewan Randall,

27/02/2009 16:19:15
Has he got any of the money yet?

If he hasn't got any of the money yet how can he give it back?

Has anyone got a copy of a RBS contract and rules of employment?
291

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 16:40:14
335 Churchill - John Prescott is a hypocrite and a liar. He knows fine well (as an ex shop steward) that if Goodwin's pension is deferred salary and was offered to him as part of his severance package then he could probably sue them if it was withdrawn. It shouldn't have been offered to him in the first place.

292

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 27/02/2009 16:41:50
349 Excellent comment and analysis.
293

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 27/02/2009 16:47:52
351 It again highlights that those who are in the treasury and UK government, seem to have lost all ability for common sense, even the ability to read RBS's accounts for 2007.
294

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 16:54:53
353 It's becoming more apparent on a daily basis that they just panicked big time when the banking crisis broke, with the merger of HBOS with LLoyds, and the subsequent re-capitalisation bail-outs. They didn't know what they were doing, they were operating blindfolfded, no due diligence, they just made it up as they went along. And they are STILL making it up as they go along.
295

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 17:08:23
354
Observer,,

Agreed!

We trained hard . . . but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralisation.

Gaius Petronus - a Roman General who later committed suicide

Ye never know what fate has in hand for Broon


296

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 17:09:21


#289 Rufus
“RBS's biggest problem was the purchase of ABN AMRO.

That only happened just over a year ago.

Prior to that RBS was a successful and profitable bank.

How you can say the previous years were not successful is beyond any right thinking minds.”

Oh really?

Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) announced UK’s biggest ever loss by any company, of £24.1billion, even as it also announced that the UK government had agreed to a historical bailout package that could see the government adding up to £25.5 billion to the bank as fresh capital, over and above the initial £15 billion already invested.

During the credit boom, RBS, which owns NatWest and Direct Line, maximised shareholder returns by maintaining a thin capital buffer against future losses as its loan book ballooned. It also went on an acquisition spree that ended in the £10bn buy-up of the Dutch bank ABN Amro's wholesale banking business, which caused about £2bn of first-half losses.
At the same time, the public will insure up to £325 billion of RBS’ toxic assets in the government’s newly announced asset restructuring scheme.

Go on rufus, explain to us why a £10bn investment in ABN has resulted in having “toxic assets” valued at £325 billion?
297

Faux Cul,

27/02/2009 17:09:58
The Civil Service Mardarins are shot because of all the new initiatives they have to produce every day.

That is how the pension entitlement is calculated
298

Observer,,

Glasgow 27/02/2009 17:11:34
355 what fate should have in store for him is the bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver, so he can do the decent thing, but decency seems as antiquated to Labour as Gaius Petronus.
299

steve52,

Kinfauns 27/02/2009 17:12:10
Broon wont take any action. He stated the same thing during the Glenrothes by election, that he would take energy companies to court if they did not reduce prices. Just talk and the numpties in Fife believed him.

Will Broon & Co. give up their pensions? After all one cannot benifit from failure according to Labour.
300

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27/02/2009 17:29:51
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301

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 17:40:37
358 Observer,,Glasgow 27/02/2009 17:11:34
“what fate should have in store for him is the bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver, so he can do the decent thing, but decency seems as antiquated to Labour as Gaius Petronus.”

Gaius Petronus, apparently an “elegantiae arbiter”.

I would rather Mr Shred invested some of his pension in a type writer (home pc equipped with Office 2007 if you will), and tell us all where the bodies are buried.

FSA, Government policies regarding regulation, Dr David Kelly solutions?

302

Tartan Viking,

27/02/2009 17:56:37
#289/ Roofarse. You are a top drawer clown mate if you believe the RBS losses were only due to the purchase of ABN AMRO.

I concur with #356 bully wee alba's posting. Read ut, then let's have your answer. I won't be holding my breath.
303

observator,

Edinburgh 27/02/2009 18:36:51
The ABN Amro takeover was thought to be too expensive by all the market members who did not bid, or were underbidders. They were the dissenting voices.
I wonder whether the Royal Bank lied about its known financial position when seeking to raise cash from share sales. The Police should be looking into this; it should not be left to a skint shareholder to raise the matter.
304

Robert Burns,

San Diego, California 27/02/2009 19:32:21
Has anyone showed him the awaiting guillotine?
305

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27/02/2009 23:21:08
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306

Scottyt,

Saint Paul, 27/02/2009 23:36:33
Just ONE month's of Freddie's pension and this pensioner could live on a far easier street than the one I'm now on!!
What an obscene little man you are Fred.
307

Ewan Oosami,

28/02/2009 11:34:17
As Gorgon Broon has been astute enough in the past to think of more ways to tax the public it shouldn't be too difficult for him to think of a way to claw back this guys obscene pension. How about a top tax rate of 99% on anything over £200k/year.
Furthermore if this pesion is payable up to his death....are you thinking what I'm thinking?
308

Justice Seeker,

Western USA 04/03/2009 13:51:31
Rufus, you are a true clown. Here in the States, as elsewhere, there is a call for responsibility. If one loses money for their company or organization, they should be "sacked" as you guys say. Bonus? The bonus I's give an a-hole like that would be a VERY large black footprint on his butt, with the following farewell. "Don't let the door hit you on the way out!"
309

Justice Seeker,

Western USA 04/03/2009 13:57:42
How about a double penalty for "unnecessary expense" provision, IE, you have to pay back DOUBLE of the wasted funds? That would stop the nonsense. Especially if there was no corporate deduction for the crooked companies to hide behind to pay out such extortion
310

,

07/03/2009 10:33:11
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