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SNP forced to drop flagship tax policy

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Published Date: 12 February 2009
JOHN Swinney performed the biggest policy U-turn in the history of the Scottish Parliament yesterday when he ditched the SNP's flagship plan for a local income tax.
In a surprise statement that shocked the parliament chamber, the finance secretary admitted to MSPs that he just did not have enough support at Holyrood to get a flat-rate increase in Scottish income tax of 3p in the pound through.

He said his controversial plan would now be shelved – at least until after the next election.

The U-turn represents a humiliating reverse, both for the finance secretary and for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, both of whom had insisted they would push forward with the tax despite the widespread opposition they faced inside and outside parliament.

Was the Scottish Government right to shelve its local income tax plans? Vote here

Mr Swinney told MSPs he was determined to go into the next election campaigning for a local income tax, but he admitted that he had now come to the conclusion that it would have to be dropped for the remaining two years of this parliament.

He blamed "parliamentary arithmetic" for what he described as a "pragmatic" decision, saying: "We cannot put together a stable majority to enable us successfully to steer detailed local income tax legislation through this parliament."

And he went on: "The Cabinet has therefore decided not to introduce legislation to abolish the unfair council tax and replace it with a local income tax until after the election 2011."

The SNP will now go into the next Scottish election on a policy of scrapping the council tax and replacing it with a local income tax in what is certain to be a key battleground in that campaign.

The finance secretary acknowledged that the policy was barely affordable, blaming the expected £500 million cut in next year's Scottish block grant for the decision. He said this "fundamental financial shift" had made the policy impossible to fund.

Mr Swinney denied, however, that he had been influenced by the welter of criticism that was directed at the policy through the consultation process last year, opposition that included students, the Ministry of Defence, business organisations and The Scotsman.

Last night, those business leaders, trade unionists and opposition politicians who campaigned against a local income tax expressed their relief and delight at the SNP's U-turn.

Business analysts had warned the move would be an extra tax on earners – just at a time when the country was struggling economically – and that this would deter businesses from setting up in Scotland and could persuade existing companies to relocate to England.

The Federation of Small Businesses called the decision a "relief" for business and said it was "delighted" Mr Swinney had backed down.

The Scottish Council for Development and Industry said ministers had made "the right decision" and CBI Scotland said the move would be "warmly welcomed" by business.

The trade union Unison said the tax would have had "a disastrous effect on jobs and services", while Glasgow City Council said it would have had "dire consequences" for the delivery of services had the Scottish Government brought it in.

Labour said the Scottish Government's credibility had "died" as a result of the decision.

Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, said: "The SNP really have none of the significant policies left that it stood on in the last election. This is a government in meltdown."

The Tories said Mr Salmond had been "humiliated". Derek Brownlee, the Scottish Conservatives' finance spokesman, claimed local income tax had been a "very, very flawed policy" and he said ditching the proposals had been "long overdue".

However, the Liberal Democrats, the only other party in the parliament that supported the controversial tax, accused Mr Swinney of a "gross betrayal of the voters".

Local income tax is the latest in a series of major policies that the SNP campaigned on during the 2007 election campaign, but which they have been unable to get through the parliament.

The Nationalists said they would abolish student debt and introduce a £2,000 grant for first-time house buyers, but neither of these policies was brought before the parliament.

Local income tax was different, however. It was one of the SNP's flagship policies and one that was pursued through a consultation process, with the bill due to be unveiled in June this year.

Its failure leaves the SNP with two remaining heavyweight policies to be enacted – a referendum on independence and the creation of a Scottish Futures Trust to build major infrastructure projects.

There is not enough parliamentary support for the independence referendum and the futures trust, when it gets going, will be a shadow of the great bond-selling organisation it was originally supposed to be.

As a result, the Nationalists risk going into the 2011 Scottish elections having achieved their smaller, populist policies – such as scrapping bridge tolls and prescription charges – but having failed with their big ticket items.

Part of this is undoubtedly because it is a minority government, and there is a lack of support across the chamber for these big policy ideas.

But it also comes down to the sheer impracticality of the schemes proposed by the SNP government.

Senior government sources admitted last night that one of the central reasons why the proposed local income tax has been dropped was because it was simply unaffordable.

Ministers had been counting on getting £400 million a year from the UK Treasury to make up for the council tax benefit they would lose in introducing the new tax, but UK ministers repeatedly made it clear that money would not be coming to Scotland.

Given that the Scottish Government was having to find £281 million a year just to meet the amount generated at the moment by the council tax, and given that income tax rates are shrinking, Mr Swinney was looking at a £1 billion bill just to get the tax introduced.

With his Scottish block grant expected to be trimmed by some £500 million a year for the next two years, the local income tax was virtually unaffordable – something Mr Swinney started to realise over the past few weeks.

The policy has also started to look incredibly shaky as the economic downturn has started to bite, with financial experts warning that the last thing Scotland needed was to have higher income tax rates than the rest of the UK.

David Maddox: A simple plan fraught with complexities

THE local income tax, as set out by the SNP, was designed to be simple but ran into many complications.

The plan involved introducing a flat-rate increase in Scottish income tax of 3p in the pound.

The rate was designed to bring a £270 million cut in taxation and also make it simpler and less expensive to raise. The SNP argued that varied rates across 32 different councils would have increased bureaucracy.

It said it would have been raised as a supplement using the existing PAYE method through HM Revenue and Customs, although HMRC has said that it would not collect LIT. Some critics argued that the flat rate took away the ability of councils to set their own rates and as a result broke European law on local government.

The Liberal Democrats, the only other supporters of LIT, were trying to negotiate a deal whereby councils could set their own rates after an introductory period.

The rate seemed to have been decided on the basis that the Scottish Parliament has powers to vary income tax in Scotland by up to 3p.

However, the SNP wanted to go beyond the "tartan tax" powers of Holyrood and add 3p to the higher 40p tax rate as well. The Treasury suggested this was illegal.

A further complication was that the SNP wanted the money (£400 million) paid to people receiving council tax benefit to be added to the Scottish block grant.

However, because the money only goes to individuals and not to councils or devolved governments, the Westminster government insisted that this money would no longer come to Scotland if the council tax was abolished.

Some calculations suggested that the gap in public funds from the loss of council tax benefit, higher rate tax increases and a basic shortfall could be as much as £1.5 billion.

Hamish Macdonell: The bottom line is money, or lack of it, caused U-turn

JOHN Swinney could be forgiven for experiencing more than a little sense of deja vu yesterday. After all, this is not the first time he has had to conduct a U-turn on a major tax policy – a tax policy he championed to the skies.

Back in 1999 Mr Swinney, then the SNP's finance spokesman, and Alex Salmond, then the party leader (sound familiar?) came up with the idea of raising income tax by 1p in the pound to counter an income tax cut announced by Gordon Brown in the Budget.

This "penny for Scotland" idea was the centrepiece of the SNP's election campaign for the 1999 election but it did not go down too well with the voters.

Mr Swinney then dropped the idea before the next election, deciding it had become just too much of a liability.

Fast forward to this week's Cabinet meeting and Mr Swinney again announces to his colleagues that he is to ditch a tax plan he had been the strongest supporter of. It cannot have been easy.

But where this leaves the SNP's overall policy platform is another question. The Nationalists came to power with a host of relatively minor, populist, policies such as saving accident and emergency departments and scrapping tolls on bridges.

Most of these could be done without legislation and that is what happened. For the first year, the Scottish Government rode high on a feel-good wave of popular support engendered by these achievements.

While this was happening, the really big ticket items were being dealt with more slowly and running into criticism. The big three, in descending order, were: an independence referendum, the local income tax and the Scottish Futures Trust, to build schools and hospitals.

There was a theory circulating at Holyrood yesterday that this move to drop the LIT was intended to "clear the decks" before next year's push to get the independence referendum through, that Mr Salmond would not like to be fighting on two fronts at once when the referendum bill comes before parliament.

That may be a side issue but the real reason is practical. Local income tax has been dropped because it is unaffordable, at least on current budgets.

The Tories crunched the numbers yesterday and worked out that there is now a £1 billion black hole in the SNP's plans, caused in part by their failure to get council tax benefit money from the UK Treasury, in part because the LIT will need to be subsidised to generate as much as council tax produces, and partly because income tax rates are falling – dramatically.

If Mr Swinney is having trouble finding the £2 billion over several years he needs for the new Forth road bridge then he certainly can't find £1 billion a year extra to pay for this one policy.

The finance secretary may have dressed it up in more colourful and political language, but the bottom line is money, or a lack of it, and that is what has caused the U-turn.

The end result is that the SNP will go into the 2011 election campaigning for a local income tax but the party will also have to go into that election admitting that it has failed to get a raft of major policies through the parliament.

So although the Nationalists will go into the election on a clear policy platform, they will also go into that campaign using the frustrations of the past four years as justification for them to be given a bigger majority.

There is also a side effect of all this, though. Mr Salmond wanted a coalition government because he knew it would be more stable than minority government, but he could not form one.

After circumstances forced his hand he was content to run a minority administration, particularly when he could rule by diktat, without having to go through parliament.

What this latest episode has shown Mr Salmond, however, is that it might well be worth going that extra mile to get a coalition agreed. So maybe the recent rapprochement with the Liberal Democrats is the start of something bigger after all?

We will not know that until after the 2011 election.




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1

Rufus-T-Firefly,

11/02/2009 22:30:21
DEAR OH DEAR OH DEAR!

Another broken SNP promise.

First it was the promise to abolish student debt.

PROMISE BROKEN.


Then it was the promise to give £2,000 grants to first-time house buyers.

PROMISE BROKEN

Now it is the turn of the unfair, discredited and unworkable Local Income Tax.

PROMISE BROKEN

What an advert for the SNP.

I wonder how the extra 1000 police officers is coming along.
2

Rufus-T-Firefly,

11/02/2009 22:42:21
What a week for the SNP.

First they got rid of useless Ministers.

Now they are dumping useless policies.
3

Rufus-T-Firefly,

11/02/2009 23:08:09
http://i44.tinypic.com/344pdo3.jpg
4

Rufus-T-Firefly,

11/02/2009 23:24:57
And let's not forget that the HMRC told them to shove it, as it was illegal!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5576475.ece

So one of their main manifesto pledges in getting elected was illegal and the Inland Revenue would have refused to collect it.

And the people fell for it.

I really wonder about my fellow Scots at times.

And for those advocating independence....Read this

"Scotland is living beyond its means more than any other European country, with the exception of Bulgaria, according to a damning report by a government adviser.

Even relatively backward former communist states such as Romania and Slovenia are making a higher proportion of the goods they consume, says the study by Richard Marsh, the director of economics and policy at Gen Consulting.

It says Scotland’s burgeoning balance of trade deficit is “unsustainable” and that investment and economic growth are failing to keep pace with public spending."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5683686.ece

Independence is a busted flush. Look for Salmond pulling the referendum some time soon.
5

subrosa,

12/02/2009 00:10:59
Oh Rooofis, no need to get overexcited. I know you've had a bad day what with one of Gordon's pal's being found out as a useless banker and having to resign, but do calm down.

The SNP will get a much fairer alternative to the present council tax through the parliament eventually. As it stands everyone will save until then because there will be no increases.
6

,

12/02/2009 00:15:10
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7

Forward not Back,

12/02/2009 00:19:54
Now the Scottish Government should turn its attention to a land value tax, as it is the only factor of production that is not taxed directly. This would help to assuage future house price bubbles.
8

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

12/02/2009 00:24:04
Odd is it not that the SNP Government with LIT basically wanted to bring in a £450m tax cut – the biggest tax cut in a generation, only to discover Gordon 'Everything in my power to save the Union' Brown, impose a £500 million reduction of Scotland’s budget next year and the following one?
9

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

12/02/2009 00:25:01
Roofy-baby, in the spirit of cordiality, perhaps you'd care to share with us the extensive plans that Scottish Labour have to replace the much reviled Council tax?
10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:27:09
Thought I was reading this in yesterday's edition.

He, he. hhfh

Best thing yet for the nationalist cause - pity the unionist numpties that cannot see it.

11

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 00:28:01
Rufus-T-Firefly

Not quite the brightest button are you roofarse. Although delaying LIT may dissapoint some of us the SNP now have even broader appeal amongst the business community and other groups. Now where exactly does that leave the rag tag bunch of Unionist no hoper parties, ye, penny dropped yet.
Apart from the feeble minded such as yourself, who is going to vote for them.
See below - you may need Nursey

Scottish - Scottish
English - English/British
Scottish Unionist - Held in contempt by both of the above
12

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:28:30
8 and 9, Fink-Nottle, can I call you Fink? You said those very same things on the other board. Cut & Paste comes in handy I suppose when you are an SNP Supporter and have nothing new to add.

Yours, Bertram Wilbeforce...
13

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:29:22
Groundhog Day - I got you, Babe.
14

,

12/02/2009 00:31:34
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15

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 12/02/2009 00:31:41
Rufus T. Firefly stutters in action with his scattergun posting approach. I can practically see him salivating over his keyboard, wrapped in a Union Jack.

A few simple political realities in the hope of calming him down -

The SNP government is a minority government, and on major issues can only carry the day with enough consensus and votes to implement legislation. This is the reality of minority government throughout the globe, something accepted and worked around by mature politicians, such as in New Zealand, where they have managed it amicably enough for a long time.

Regrettably, we don't have a mature opposition at Holyrood, although the opposition parties vary in their approach. We have the outright hatred of the SNP and the contempt for the people of Scotland displayed by the morally and intellectually bankrupt Labour Party. We have the carefully calculated and mature opposition of the Tories, with their eye on the UK elections, and entertaining the hope of a Tory recovery at home. We have the vacillating and confused cowardice of the LibDems, a party heading pell mell for the same loss of identity and moral core as Labour. And lastly we have the puffed up vanity and ultimate irrelevance of the Greens. And Margo - as always an independent and sane voice.

Quite simply, Alex Salmond and John Swinney cannot carry through legislation based on the simple arithmetic of the opposition votes.

And lastly, we have the brutal, swingeing funding cuts imposed by the vindictive and incompetent Brown government, lashing around amidst the corruption and incompetence that they are the authors of.

By realistically, and deeply regretfully putting on the back burner a policy that they are deeply committed to, the SNP government has shown a maturity that its unprincipled opposition lack.

In the process, they have spoiled the fun and shot the fox of Labour, denying the gruesome Gray and Jim Murphy the opportunity to deny the people of Scotland what they willed
16

,

12/02/2009 00:31:53
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17

,

12/02/2009 00:32:13
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18

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:32:22
SNP hyprocrisy@12. Have you anything to say about the article?
19

,

12/02/2009 00:32:23
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20

,

12/02/2009 00:33:05
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21

,

12/02/2009 00:33:21
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22

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:33:22
I am more intrigued by the way Swinney has pushed this one aside for 2 years. The SNP surely wouldn't dream of going into an election with this as an election promise? :-D I'd laugh, but it stops being funny when you realise that there are people on these boards who'd still believe them.

If so, they might as well promise to abolish student debt, promise grants to first-time buyers and promise 1,000 new police officers. Hey why not, it's all SNP fairy tales, which people have come to expect will never come true anyway. :-)
23

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:36:38
yes,22, but have you anything to say on the article, SNP hypocrisy?
24

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:38:03
24. Have you, ya muppet?
25

AJM,

12/02/2009 00:38:09
#22 SNP Hype, I wonder how much this has cost us in civil service time and SNP consultants?

#21 Traquir, general plea, if you are cutting and pasting for effect it is not working and can you please get to the point as I loose all interest in your posts so quickly, that always seem to be the same rant. I hope that I am mistaken but they seem over long and hard to read.
26

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:40:05
Jock you really are in need of psychiatric help if you think this story is in any way is good for the SNP.

All the SNP have done is proved that yet again they did not and could not deliver on yet another election promise.
27

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:41:04
25. It would be interesting to know that figure.
28

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:41:34
Jeez. I only have to make one post to SNP hypocricy@24 and he ends up calling himself a muppet. Bet he's Zoot.
29

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 12/02/2009 00:41:41
Plain and simple they conned a large nuber of voters me included with their promise to get rid of the hated council tax. Alex did the Maggie Thatcher bit in the Parliament about not being for turning, she only did it at the party conference.
Mr Salmond may have told lies to Parliament, the SNP have certainly lied to the people of Scotland.
30

,

12/02/2009 00:41:47
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31

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:44:44
SNP hypocrisy. More fool you for thinking this episode will harm them. What the paper writes is what the paper writes.

And the press never rights anything wrong.
32

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:45:29
30. You keep call us Brit Nats, and we'll keep calling you NATZ. Sounds fair?
33

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 00:50:18
I don't quite see how anyone could describe this as a 'broken promise' by the SNP. The SNP still believes in getting rid of the council tax and replacing it with a local income tax; they simply cannot persuade the rest of parliament.
34

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:50:33
31. Only this paper? You don't think the rest of the Scottish Press and the News programs will also report what utter numpties the SNP are? The power of the press is considerably more powerful than you seem to give it credit for.

No matter, you support a party which uses 'SNP News' press releases on their website to affect the News on Google. Now that is pathetic and definitely not newsworthy. Interesting that no-one (the real press that is) ever picks up on those stories. LOL!

I suppose the SNP's next election campaign will be based around a Google adwords campaign. :-)
35

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:51:19
32, SNP hypocrisy. Brit Natz, NATZ. Ok.

At least NATZ is the norm. Not like the "Scottish" Highlsnds and "THE MIDLANDS" and "THE NORTH EAST".

You Brit Natz are secondary.
36

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:53:07
34. You are losing the plot a tad.
37

,

12/02/2009 00:53:11
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38

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:55:52
33. So when are they going to do this then? LOL.

By your reasoning the SNP could in fact promise anything no matter how impossible, but that would be okay when they backed out on the deal?

If the SNP promised to give everyone a million quid and then backed out of it, saying that they couldn't persuade the rest of Parliament would you agree that would be an election promise undelivered?

If the SNP promised to ressurect John Lennon and George Harrison for a Beatles reunion and then found they actually couldn't...

That would be okay in your book, and perfectly excusable right?
39

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:57:24
38. Whatever, I don't control the moderator deleting messages from SNP muppets which changes the numerical order of things. No matter my message will move again, when the messages above without adequate copyright (from another SNP muppet) are also removed.
40

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 00:59:40
Note how the plant SNP hypocrisy avoids answering and attacks others.

Ignore alert. Paid up night shift in this valence.
41

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 00:59:56
37. Nah, didn't think you'd be fair about it, or see what a muppet you are. You know fine well you are attempting to compare British people to the BNP. So in that case, and in respect of a level playing field, I will call you Natz.
42

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 01:03:24
And to think I once stood up for that moron.

Someone said that SNP hypocrisy wasn't fit to eat with pigs and I said he was.
43

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 01:06:09
#39 You are behaving like a child .You demand the impossible by expecting that the SNP should be able to do push through a bill that they don't have enough votes in the parliament for.
No other party can do this either, so why are you not accusing the Labour party, the Tories, the Liberals and the Greens of 'betraying their promises'?

And to think you have the cheek to accuse other people of 'hypocrisy'.
44

,

12/02/2009 01:07:26
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45

Royster,

12/02/2009 01:08:49
#43. Yes, roll on the referendum. A 'Yes' vote and total independence; A 'No' vote and back to direct Westminster rule. You're either in the union or out. None of these half-way houses. I'm for the union; independence is a busted flush.
46

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 01:08:54
45. You are a clown.

Oh and by the way, according to my Physics degree course-work Newton discovered gravity, he did not invent it. He may have been an exceptional human, but the powers of the almighty were not at his discretion.
47

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 01:11:55
#45. 'You are a clown. '

Well it certainly takes one to know one, coco!
48

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 01:13:43
51. No less than you have.
49

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 01:13:52
47, Royster, you might be onto something there. Holyrood or Westminster rule.

However,methinks you are on a loser on that as a referendum question.

Unionists would have to be more devious than that.
50

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 12/02/2009 01:15:19
I agree with #15 and all the Traquir posts. I was never happy about the LIT proposal from the beginning, but that is irrelevant now. What matters is that John Swinney and the government have displayed genuine statesmanship in withdrawing this controversial plan, for the meantime at least. A far more fundamental and important question is due for decision next year, and nothing should be allowed to muddy the issue. I must also say that Alex Salmond and his team have handled their remit in the difficult circumstances of minority government with a virtuosity that exceeds anything I had previously expected of them.

51

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 01:18:03
ColB@56. Could only have been the world of the blind.

Is he not the king of that?
52

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 01:26:34
ColB. How refreshing to savour the moments of Brit Nat/Jonhnston Press/Troll freeness.
53

Billiam Wallace,

12/02/2009 01:27:30
What strikes me about this story is how mature and intelligent it makes the SNP appear. Here is a party, a group of politicians, who came up with an idea to get rid of Council Tax but couldn't get a concensus to push it through parliament. They faced a severe campaign of fiscal warfare from those balloons in Westmonster who will do ANYTHING to destroy the SNP and any hope for an independent Scotland, including withholding our own money from us. They listened to the people and they listened to businessmen and they dropped the idea for now. Contrast this situation with the actions of the Westmonster government as led by that one-eyed trouser snake Strangely Brown. In their case, any policy or new law that they want to push through will be pushed through, no matter what. Do they listen to the people? NO! Do they listen to the business community? (Well, the ones not paying into their party funds), NO! Do they care about anyone but themselves? NO!

Dear Dufus, (the poster who has unbridled access to these boards two hours before anyone else and still can't write an intelligent post), what do you think of NuLiebore and their inability to do anything morally or fiscally right? Any insight into the greatness and goodness of NuLiebore and its FANTASTIC leadership would be gratefully received. We are living in keen anticipation of your fullsome and intelligent essay on the merits of the present UK government and why they deserve to live another day. (personally I can't think of a single reason that they haven't been put up against a wall and shot).
54

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/02/2009 01:30:12
i hear my bed calling to me. Better not ignore.

Nightie, night, all.

55

Jock Tamson,

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 12/02/2009 01:32:51
Care not if I snore.
56

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 01:34:55
61 Billiam Wallace "What strikes me about this story is how mature and intelligent it makes the SNP appear."

Are you smokin' the whacky backy Billiam? LOL.
57

Shenachy,

South Queensferry 12/02/2009 01:42:15
#48 SNP hypocracy - I was happy to ignore your ramblings until your claim about a physics degree course. You write and behave like a five year-old instead of engaging in an adult debate. Let's hope your mum chases you off to bed soon to allow others to make genuine comments.
58

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/02/2009 01:51:18
Seperatism is something the Swiss are very keen to put into practice. And it seems to work better in economic and democratic ways than the the UK model. So perhaps "seperatist" must be regarded as a compliment. What are the advantages of having all our seats of power and regulatory bodies (they don't!) in London?

Rufus pointed out that Scots don't manufacture enough of products they consume. Who is going to fix this? Westminster? The Bank of England?
59

,

12/02/2009 02:19:54
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60

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 02:23:20
What must be a conundrum for impartial observers of Scottish politics is the weeping and wailing of the opposition Parties in the Scottish Parliament.

We have a Parliament with 129 elected members and a Government with 47 members - A DEFICIT of 45 votes.

Yet this Government, which can be defeated at any time, has survived for almost 2yrs which includes having 2 Budgets approved.

The conundum is, why has this Government survived for almost 2yrs when every day, without fail, since it's election, opposition MPs and the Scottish media decry the decisions, actions and policies of the Government?

How can a MINORITY Government, so universally disapproved of be its opposition politicians and the media, have been so successful?

Can you resolve this conundrum, SNP HYPOCRITICAL?
61

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 12/02/2009 02:36:45
Westminster are cutting the Scottish budget by £1 BILLION over the next 2 years. The Holyrood Parliament has already voted against LIT by 65-60. The SNP should not be held to ransom in a minority administration. They must lead with the abolition of LIT for the 2011 election. They have frozen council tax in the meantime. I wish Mugabroon would stand back and look at what he is doing! I hope working families with one kid who are being denied savings of £150 per year remember that when it comes time to vote.
62

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:05:57
65. Having a Bachelors degree in Physics, pails into insignificance to what I have done since then. As a published author & lecturer, currently working on my PhD, I don't really care what you believe or disbelieve. As I pointed out to your unenlightened SNP compadre - Newton did not 'invent' gravity. Have a nice day.
63

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:11:21
66. Other than whisky, we currently manufacture no major products that the rest of the world wants or needs. The SNP are very deluded. An Independent Scotland could not survive in the world today. I wonder what would happen 5 years down the road when Salmond's 'experiment' was proved a failure, and no way back to how it used to be.

I wouldn't like to be in his shoes. However, lets face it. Salmond and the SNP leadership no longer believe in Independence - that's a fact! They might use the word when it suits them, but reality is that they want the status quo - on their terms.
64

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:16:44
Shenachy 65

SNP Hypocrisy may well have a physics degree or be some kind of academic geek but to brag about this online as if it has any sort of meaning shows he has either:

a total lack of comprehension as to how much of a gaping clunge this makes makes him appear to normal folk.

or

some kind of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Pray it is the former because if it is the latter God help us all (him included)...NPDs are vicious and have no morals whatsoever.

He is definitely mentally aberrant from the norm!

Puir wee lamb.
65

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:23:07
72. I only mentioned it in passing, when I saw yet another SNP numpty wrongly believing something that a 14 year old schoolboy could put him straight on. Run along now little Nat.

It's almost comical to be told I'm narcissistic by someone who advances the racist and insular cause of Nationalism, which naturally puts himself and his type above all else.

Typical Natz, they like to change the topic when they don't like what's being said about them and their crummy party. :-D SNP = like all NATIONALISTS make very poor specimens on the evolutionary ladder.
66

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:25:15
What is it then aspergers with a OCD twist?
67

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:25:36
Galloping Wallopery?
68

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:28:59
74. It's been proven by research that the SNP voters have the second lowest IQ's in the nation, only BNP voters had a lower IQ.

BTW, are you telling us you have an issue with Autistic people? My my, you Natz have some very extreme ideas.
69

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:31:01
No, that is how you look...no slur intended just an honest observation.

You seem awful touchy.
70

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:33:04
77. Run along. I can't be bothered responding to your comments about me, and your slurs against the disabled only lower you in my estimation.
71

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:33:55
Do you have some kind of issue you are hiding from us?

If people knew perhaps they wouldn't be as hard on you.
72

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:35:46
79. ? LOL!
73

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 03:38:09
I don't understand how I have made any slurs against people with disabilities unless you feel that by likening them to you I have done them an injustice.
74

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 03:43:36
Erm... Considering that you seem to be rather fixated on me and on a topic that has nothing to do with this news story, could it just be that you are the one here with the Asperger's Sydrome?

As a scientist it's only natural that I have friends and colleagues who are on the Autistic Spectrum. Others might find you boring and monotonous, but that's okay I understand. :-)

Here's a way to cure your OCB, just refuse to post here. The compulsions can be beaten stick with it. Just say "No" to that voice in your head, go on nothings going to happen.

As for your support of the SNP, I don't know the cure for that particular psychiatric disorder.
75

donald,

glasgow 12/02/2009 03:51:41
LIT has not been "ditched", but meraly postponed till the SNP has a larger majority.
76

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 12/02/2009 03:53:15
#70 SNP Hypocracy -

"Having a Bachelors degree in Physics, pails into insignificance to what I have done since then. As a published author & lecturer, currently working on my PhD, I don't really care what you believe or disbelieve."

You should work on your spelling before you continue working on a PhD. "Pails" means "buckets".

It would be interesting to know what you have published besides your inane posts on these threads.
77

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 04:03:31
@ Sierra foothills Scot

If as I suspect SNP Hypocrisy is suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder he will have nothing in print other that which he has printed through Vanity publishers.


78

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 04:13:17
84. Whatever, fake Scottish Yankee person.

This page should put you straight, scroll down to pail usage examples, Preposition: into.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/pail

You might want to check your own spelling, that's 'hypocrisy', got that.

It's quite pathetic actually when people who can't hold an argument on the internet resort to typos, spelling or grammatical errors.
79

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 04:15:02
85. Ah there you are Boabby, still the OCB has its grip on you eh? Remember what I said: Just say No! Now I won't be responding to you this time, because I have better things today, and it seems to be feeding your OCB. Oh well, Just say no to the voices. :-)
80

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 04:17:45
@ Sierra Foothills Scot.

Maybe he just suffers from the usual Labour maladies of crippling self loathing, debilitating envy, pathological dishonesty and blinding arrogance.
81

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 04:23:00
88. Whatever you say, but you really have to stop making general attacks on the afflicted, and using words that are no longer politically correct or acceptable. :-)

I have nothing more to say to you, but if you attack the disabled or infirm, or use politically incorrect labels for them, you can be sure to get a reply from me. :-)
82

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 04:25:40
Weak
83

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 04:26:53
So the SNP... Yet another election promise undelivered and proven undeliverable...
84

 sm753,

12/02/2009 04:37:59
RTF and SNP hypocrisy:

I salute you.

There is no gainsaying the facts: the Nats have been exposed as either being too stupid to realise that LIT was unworkable, or they knew all along and lied to the public at the election.

The same will be shown true of SFT when it is eventually "unveiled" as a pointless project-management quango with no fund-raising powers whatsoever.

It is our sacred national duty to keep reminding the world of these facts.

Once more into the breach, dear friends.
85

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 04:50:10
LOL and here comes sm753 praising RTF and SNP Hypocrisy

Go talk klingon to yourself ya sock puppet maestro!
86

Boaby Dazzler,

12/02/2009 04:55:18
Night Night
87

,

12/02/2009 05:16:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

 sm753,

12/02/2009 06:05:15
93

"Go talk klingon to yourself ya sock puppet maestro!"

I would love to respond in Klingon, but since that seems to be a banned language here I will do so in English:

Your mother has a smooth forehead.

I would put that into "braid Scots", but sadly the planned enormous state subsidies have not yet provided me with the appropriate translation software.
89

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 12/02/2009 06:18:06
There is no question that the council tax is unfair,, however a local income tax never was a viable alternative.
The poll tax was actually better as those who use the services paid. Means to pay simply is not relevant as that is what we have income tax for.
90

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 06:32:28
The only reason LIT was unviable was because all the people who stood to lose out have much louder voices and power and were able to kick up a stink about it.
Even today this newspaper is going on about how unfair LIT would have been to a professional couple living together as if these are the only kind of people you get in this country.

If ability to pay isn't a fair basis for paying taxes, then what on earth is?
91

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 07:00:48
#98 Newton

To be correct, a flat-rate income tax increase is 'equitable'. If it was 'based on the avility to pay' it would reflect income tax bands.

Are you saying that you would prefer everyone to pay, say, 30% income tax, across the board, with no variation for income?
92

Professor22,

lochgelly 12/02/2009 07:01:38
Maybe Alex needs to reshuffle himself??

Never laughed so hard for so long for a long time. Like other readers I cannot believe the electorate of Scotland fell for this bunch of wannabes.

Type to scrap the Scottish Parliament altogether if this is the standard of politician we can expect.
93

Aileen,

12/02/2009 07:03:26
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only people against this idea were those who would have to pay more tax, ie the rich folks or high end businesses. The people who are retired and happen to live in a high Council Tax area would be better off. The people who earn a low income would be better off because they would be paying less, the country would be better off if you could all see and just think about it instead of lambasting the idea. And why are you all lambasting the SNP? At least they tried which is more than can be said for Labour.
94

Professor22,

lochgelly 12/02/2009 07:09:53
101 Aileen

Perhaps people are angry because it was yet ONE more tax to pay, the tax that broke the tax-payers backs.

After paying, PAYE, NIC, Corporate, Council, Car,VAT at a tune of over >40k per year, I may decide, like others to say F--k it. Lets become part of the Jeremy Kyle generation and sponge our way through life and let some other losers worry about paying for us.

Scrap the parliament and let them go back to running Cooncils (badly)
95

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/02/2009 07:15:12
Matter's bobbing about on a sea of energy. With this new Einstein among us, what are we going to build that the world needs? Energy and malaise are the problems. Jimmy Carter pointed this out and being a qualified engineer and American, I reckon he took some serious steps to deal with it. The Repubs have always hated him for this and done their dmnedness to keep us thralled to the oil cartels and another war.

You'd think billionaires would still be billionaires when we switch to new energy technologies. How many houses, planes, cars, boats do you need? Developing this new tech is costing mere £10 millions. Scotland needs merely to offer places the safely park the scientists and engineers to do it.
96

Russell M,

Stirling 12/02/2009 07:34:49
Curious! Instead of praising the SNP for coming to its senses over the LIT, opposition politicians are taking great delight in accusing the SNP of another promise broken. Oh, I forgot, the SNP represents hope for the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The revolutionary principle of equal rights and self-determination and is therefore unacceptable to the nouveau riche.
97

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

12/02/2009 07:35:46
Good grief, Mr SNP Hypocrisy was still posting at 4.30am. How many physicists work in call centres? Is he the new ArMufus2?
98

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 07:41:40
Finally, they saw sense.

I wonder what lie-bores "alternative" is that Ian Grey was asked to put forward some weeks ago that never appeared......
99

caithness,

12/02/2009 07:44:31
I was never sure about LIT, how can a tax be a local income tax if it's applied at the same rate nationwide? What annoys me the most is the attitude of Labour. For 2 years they've sulked as if they have some god-given right to be in power for ever. I have more time for Annabel Goldie who fights her corner constructively for the good of the country. The sad thing is that McAvity in London and his sidekick Gray put Labour first and the good of the country a long way second.
100

caithness,

12/02/2009 07:46:45
And the even sadder thing is that numpties in places like Glenrothes and Lanarkshire will still vote Labour no matter how much they get kicked in the teeth by them and no matter how many troughs their Labour representatives sink their snouts into.
101

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/02/2009 07:51:56
#47 "Yes, roll on the referendum. A 'Yes' vote and total independence; A 'No' vote and back to direct Westminster rule. You're either in the union or out. None of these half-way houses."

Dear Royster,

Please do everything in your power to make this be the referendum question.

Love,
The SNP.
102

cabrach loon,

inverness 12/02/2009 07:52:30
sensible, it is only shelved. until scotland has control of ALL its finaces westminster can upset any fiscal incentives it tries / as it is doing now.
No disgrace for being realistic and waiting for the right time.
103

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 07:59:00
Its unusual for governments to listen but there was no
widespread support for LIT, especially from business,
and eating a little humble pie will do the Nationalists no harm.

However, it brings the Scottish Government back to the contentious Council Tax, which cannot be frozen forever, and will eventually have to be reformed.
104

Edward Cullen Skink,

12/02/2009 08:00:05
106. Gussie

yes, it is tragic to watch the rufus/SNP/sm753 person post to himself all through the night. A very sad creature. I only hope this unemployed insomniac will regale us soon with more of his fantasy shopping.

All these Unionists ( counting SNP hypo/sm753/rufus once, as it must be the same person as it unlikely 3 such sad creatures infest these pages at 4.30am) were posting lsat week that the SNP has to respect the parliamentary majority, and now are complaining that they are. They seem a very confused, negative bunch.
105

brownlie,

12/02/2009 08:00:56
The facts surround this situation would appear to be as follows:

For the past two years unionists have been saying that LIT is unworkable and unpopular.

The SNP are already popular with around 40% of the population.

The SNP are, therefore, forced to ditch a policy which is claimed to be unworkable and unpopular.

Will that make the SNP more or less popular?

Perhaps some unionist posters could give us the answer?
106

watcher,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 08:10:50
What a joke the Nats are. Who are they going to blame for their failed policies if Scotland ever did get independance, surely not Westminster. A 10 year old schoolboy could have told them that pulling figures out of thin air doesn`t work.
They can`t go into the next election with the same old lie, I don`t think the people who voted for them will fall for that again.
Mickey Mouse Government at Bolywood.
107

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 08:16:22
116

I think you fail to understand the purpose of the SNP. They are a conduit for independence, nothing more. Once independence is achieve, the party would have to disband in order for other democratic parties to evolve.

Thusly, in an independent Scotland, we would have a similar democracy as Westminster etc and therefore the SNP would blame nobody as they wouldn't exist in an independent Scotland.

Hope you understand that?
108

Phil C,

12/02/2009 08:20:45
Part of the Scotsman's portrayal of events is correct- That the SNP has postponed LIT till after the next election. The tone of it, with u-turns and humiliation in the wording, completely misses the mark.

This is just plain arithmetic and common sense by the SNP. This is a forced 'postponement' of a measure supported by a great majority of the population, who I hope will remember this betrayal by Labour & Tories!

The sordid partnership of the 'Scottish' Labour and Tory parties meant that the measure was not going to get through a parliament and the criminally dishonest tactics of Westminster Labour in witholding Scotland's rebate for local government meant that forcing on with this measure was a waste of time and energy at present. There are more important things to deal with! Well done the SNP.
109

Guy Wersh,

12/02/2009 08:22:31
If you have to slow down or even temporarily stop on the road it *isn't* a U-turn for goodness sake.
110

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 08:23:29
And so it begins.
Of course this discredited SNP administration blames England as another one of their policies dissolves into the thin air from whence it came.
When a political party proposes a tax change which benefits all and seems too good to be true, it usually is. The duped people of Scotland are seeing what an administration long on bragging and short on real policies actually means: recriminations and a bitter blame culture, Scotland deserves better...
111

,

12/02/2009 08:27:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
112

John S,

12/02/2009 08:28:20
The Labour Party keeps its manifesto pledges, sometimes !!!

Labour has met nearly 80% of its 1997 election pledges, according to a major research project carried out by the BBC. 3 May, 2002
The research - commissioned to mark the fifth anniversary of Tony Blair's election victory - shows that 48 out of 229 manifesto promises are either too difficult to judge or have not been met.
Done 181 (79%);Not done 21 (9.2%);On course 3 (1.3%);
On course 3 (1.3%);Partially done 14 (6.1%);Debatable 10 (4.4%)

This election pledge was not met:-
From the Labour Party 1997 Manifesto
We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.

In its 1997 manifesto, the party said "We have made it our guiding rule not to promise what we cannot deliver; and to deliver what we promise."

This election pledge was not met:-
From the Labour Party 2005 general election manifesto which stated:-
"The new Constitutional Treaty (EU) ensures the new can work effectively... We will put it to the British people in a referendum."

To sum up the Labour Party keeps its manifesto pledges, sometimes !!!
113

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 08:29:13
Well Brit Nats here is your chance , if the SNP is so bad , so incompetent, then get together in the Uninoistas alliance have a wee vote of no confidence and demand a Scottish General Election.
now if you are so right should be a walk in the park election for you.
I am more certain of course like the Brit Nat Furher Herr Brown (behaving more like Herr Flick from Allo Allo) you would run away from any election and voice of the people .
So lads put up or shut up
114

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 12/02/2009 08:32:13
Wading my way through the juvenile name calling to get at the nuggets of real comment reminds me of swimming as a boy in the canal - I had to push aside the floating s**t to make any progress.

The level of a lot of it does little service to the cause of either nationalism or unionism. However, one post does demonstrate conclusively, if unsurprisingly, that having a degree in physics does not result in maturity or the absence of vainglorious boasting.

Damn it, I'm getting sucked into the s**t myself! Must try harder, and not get involved in playground scuffles.

115

Phil C,

12/02/2009 08:33:43
#120 Grahamski

Those people who care for Scotland don't blame England. They blame Labour!

Don't worry, the SNP haven't ditched any proposals. They will be put before the Scottish people again. This time I hope that they vote more intelligently and bravely than last time. With Labour sidelined we might see more progress.
116

Phil C,

12/02/2009 08:38:22
#127 Rulesbutnaebrains

15%!! numpty!
117

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 08:41:36
Beats their u turn on trams where SNP Executive backed down after the vote in the parliament and the SNP Exec approved when could have stopped the scheme. That was only a few days in, so had a history from start of u turns.
118

David MacVicar,

web 12/02/2009 08:41:55
#15 Good Post. David Maddox manages to pen something almost worth the effort of reading, though insists on ‘humiliation’ where there is little. Yet, Labours voting the budget through on lower concessions than the budget they previously voted down was what? A triumph?

Labours apparent glee is telling. Gray is in real trouble if this is his big victory. He is on a road to nowhere. Meanwhile the SNP have continued to secure the unprecedented council tax freeze compared to the 10 year 60% average labour hike. All the SNP have to do now is keep the council tax frozen and they will keep a great deal of support for this alone. If Labour try to scupper this they will get a severe backlash.
The Labour opposition, have no policy to offer except rises and rebanding. Any whiff of even the beginnings of a policy from Labour here? No chance – they need to wait for Gordy to tell them what it is and he is in a Brit bind along with Mervin the King, buying gilts without guilt and printing money like there is no tomorrow (which there isn’t for the Union).

Personally I am in favour of LVT but nobody has looked at proposing a ‘real’ LVT that hits the major Land owners in Scotland as a means to diversify land ownership. When 50% of all privately held land in Scotland is owned by just 343 owners only taxation can leverage change.

Still, the amount of F.U.D. spouted by all sides against the LIT was verging on lunacy. EG. Why would a Scottish business move South due to LIT requiring some simple payroll changes when they have ALREADY been given much more important Business rate cut? If Labour want more head offices in Scotland just give us a central government with full fiscal and energy Policy control. Simple as that.
119

Nikostratos,,

12/02/2009 08:47:56
#124 rodster

"So lads put up or shut up"

The political momentum is with the Unionists now we will get back to you when we decide what we want to do. In the mean time a period of quiet from you nats would be much appreciated.
120

Phil C,

12/02/2009 08:51:28
#116 Idle Watcher "What a joke the Nats are. Who are they going to blame for their failed policies if Scotland ever did get independance, surely not Westminster."

I dream with a passion of the day that we can blame ourselves!
121

Phil C,

12/02/2009 08:53:30
Joke of the day from Niko - "The political momentum is with the Unionists"
122

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 08:54:33
A well-thought, honest decision by the Scottish government. In the current economic (and political) climate, this would have gone nowehere. The writing is on the wall for the hated council tax - merely a stay of execution. The Scottish public will look favourably on the courage and integrity of John Swinney.

Once the unionists get over their pointless gloating, and wake up to reality, they will be furious that the energy is now diverted to the referendum. They really never saw this coming. LoL.
123

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:00:50
Has it not occured to anyone that Brian Soutar might be a bit strapped for cash, come the next election?

Obviously, the SNP are planning to economise on pamphlet-production by keeping the ones from the last election, and just changing the date.

There is a pyramid under the Forth, by the way.
124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 09:02:50
135
Aren't you just the teensiest bit worried that the only time that LIT can be described as well-thought out and honest is when it is being abandoned?
I know slavish following of the line is de rigeur over at SNP HQ, but this is getting ridiculous....
125

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 12/02/2009 09:04:49
This betrayal is enough to stop me voting SNP but I still want Independance for Scotland so I shall continue to vote for them no matter what Rufus T Raitor says...It is a real dissapointment to have the SNP renege on a done deal however my end goal is and always has been Independance for Scotland.
126

salmondella,

UK 12/02/2009 09:05:26
Nice photo, a wee bit different from last week, Salmond and Swinney's arrogant smirks have been replaced by the frown of reality.







127

Professor22,

lochgelly 12/02/2009 09:05:50
As the Americans say

"all ranch and no cattle!"
128

Rob,

12/02/2009 09:06:23
Whilst this is a case of bowing to the inevitable, it is very welcome news. Having taken this nonsense out of the policy mix, then the remaining SNP agenda is not too unreasonable - other than its over-riding ambition for independence, a policy that will ultimately go the same way as this one a soon as voters get their chance on it.

Council Tax is certainly imperfect, but Local Income Tax would have prompted a (business) closure programme on a vast scale and this time no-one would be able to blame the English or the aristocracy.

This is a good morning for Scotland - looks as if Salmond and Co have finally smelt the coffee.
129

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 09:06:32
137

The lie-bore party in Scotland (specifically Ian Grey) was asked a number of weeks ago to produce an alternative to LIT and CT (since it is acknowledged accross all parties that CT is unwelcome).

Can you tell me what his alternative is?
130

ecosseman,

fact not propaganda 12/02/2009 09:07:15
DID I DETECT A SMILE FROM COLONEL BLINK? SURELY NOT.

LONDON MADE SURE THE SNP DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY.
ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

LETS LISTEN TO MR BROON TODAY FOR A LAUGH.
IS HIS WIFE STILL TALKING TO HIM?SHE MUST BE SO FED UP,
POOR WEE SOUL.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
131

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 09:10:57
24 SNP Hype

What a pr1c k you are !
132

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 09:14:11
This may prove to be a rather astute political move by Alex Salmond and John Swinney in terms of the next election.

By diverting available funds away from subsidising LIT towards continuing to freeze the council tax, the SNP can go into the next election promising to abolish the council tax.

This would be contrasted with the Tory/Labour alliance policy of not only retaining this tax, but proposing to increase it by up to 20%.

So the electorate will face a simple choice, return the SNP Government with an increased majority which would allow them to implement their manifesto commitments, or revert to the mindless dead hand of sub-prime Unionist cringers.
133

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:14:41
#143 Dave

Please refer to Lib Dem and Green policy.

Labour gave us the CT, and the Conservatives won't touch local taxation with a barge-pole after their last attempt to introduce a fairer system.

I think that the resounding boot up the back-side the budget gave the exec has finally woken them up to the true magnitude of their inability and ineptitude at forming a coalition executive two years ago.
134

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 09:20:16
146 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 12/02/2009 09:14:11
This may prove to be a rather astute political move by Alex Salmond and John Swinney in terms of the next election.
By diverting available funds away from subsidising LIT towards continuing to freeze the council tax, the SNP can go into the next election promising to abolish the council tax.
=======================================================

But they were going to freeze the council tax regardless.

Or was that going to be another broken pledge?
135

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 09:22:59
70 SNP dimwit

I find it hard to believe that a physics graduate would claim that Newton "discovered" gravity. Engaging brain before speaking is always wise. Try it sometime !

136

A Crofter,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 09:23:10
Traquir - You rightly remind us (#20} about the obscene waste of money that is the 2012 London Olympics.

In the interests of balanced ranting, can you perhaps explain who's footing the bill for the even more pointless 2014 [British] Commonwealth extravaganza in Glasgow?
137

Munguin,

Broughty Ferry 12/02/2009 09:23:18
At least the SNP never promised to end boom and bust! Maybe because they prefer to remain with what is possible. How could a minority administration pass a policy that everybody else will vote against? Surely spending more of parliaments time on it, at this time would be a waste of time and money. Lets face it Labours Lord Ffoulkes is an expert at wasting parliaments time and money with his endless pointless questions in the Scottih Parliament! So there is a model of how not to behave with taxpayers money.
138

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:27:44
#146 bully

Well... under the Holyrood system, and the current party limbo / pork-barrel ethos, the highest return you can get for your vote is through voting-in an independent candidate.
139

Rosscobhoy,

12/02/2009 09:30:23
#142

Businesses who have to close because of a small one off cost to implement the change could not have been running very well in the first place. It's also fair to say that in the current climate thousands will be going bust anyway thanks to Labours light touch regulations and ingnorance of economics.

For the record, i think the SNP have realised they were going nowhere with this policy right now and backed out before it got to the stage where they could not afford to. The response from opposition msp's was predictable and pretty much all wind with little behind it. It really disappoints me that the best they can do is criticise. A minority government is probably the best to have as it means people have to work together to get the best for everyone. Sadly that has rarely happened in the last 2 years and from where i am that is more to do with Labour and the Liberals than anyone else.
140

Nikostratos,,

12/02/2009 09:30:26
i do find it fun two days ago all the snp Drones..LIT brilliant wonderful the unionists dare not vote it down cause an election in which the Unionist's would be decimated.

Today LIT abandoned snp Drones...brilliant wonderful move new all along it would be dropped...

Go figure ....
141

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 09:30:59
146 Agreed. They can also use the money to start making the case for an independence referendum. I am looking forward to the squealing from the unionistas but the party in Government has its hands on the purse strings.
142

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:32:22
Thank you, St. Margo, and all those who donated to us. Sorry about the swimming pool and ice-rink, Aberdonians - our swimming pool just got refurbished (we have to pay to use the sauna now though :-( ).
143

awhl,

elsewhere 12/02/2009 09:33:49
Wow, the journos at the Scotsman still allow these dangle berries. Why doesn't the editor clean up the paper and stop all of these insulting pointless slanging matches between the three or four multiple posters. Most of whom are trying to cyber bully either the editors of the journos.
On the topic isn't it great to see the SNP show their true colours not so much braveheart as faintheart. They could have led the policy to its inevitable defeat, at least we would have seen the arguments. Stupid idea, what were the councils going to do for money given the massive shortfall. Sack more people? Cut more services.
The Futures trust will go the same way as all of the other broken promises. When will the Forth road bridge be built or are we going to have to wait for the next parlie to even get it started
144

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 09:34:07
155 Niko

Please, a little more intellectual rigour. Not "abandoned" simply "postponed".
145

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 09:34:41
#132nikostratus ,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you , had to change my kegs a couple of times laughed so much at your "Unionists have momentum " gag.
Oh mate you are so funny ever thought about a career on stage or is the job as Labour internet waster too good ?
Have a vote of no confidence in SNP Government let the people decide LIT or increased Council Tax
Cowards every one of you
146

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 09:34:44
They have known that the yweren't going to get a parliamentary majority on this for at least a year.

They are dropping it now because there is no money.

Thing is they have also known that there was no money for it for at least a year.

This is a massive U-Turn (and I support LIT so I'm annoyed)
147

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 09:37:12
161 Simply untrue. There is no way that anyone could have predicted the Westminster cuts a year ago.
148

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 09:39:39
#161 Elethionmel what utter mince you have been on here numerous times slagging off LIT and attacking it .
Geez just like Brown & Co
can none of you Unionists ever tell the truth?
149

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 12/02/2009 09:39:49
#68 "The conundum is, why has this Government survived for almost 2yrs when every day, without fail, since it's election, opposition MPs and the Scottish media decry the decisions, actions and policies of the Government? How can a MINORITY Government, so universally disapproved of be its opposition politicians and the media, have been so successful?
Can you resolve this conundrum, "

Simple - the entire 'parliament' is a joke = made up of third rate nobodies - there isn't a single MSP or 'Minister' who would merit a place on the front bench of ANY party at Westminster.

They KNOW they are third rate and just there to dole out the cash that Westminster sends them - so it doesn't really matter WHO is holding the parcel when the music stops. They ALL get paid for PRETENDING to be a government or opposition. They are paid off to create the illusion that there is a governing class in Scotland; in fact there is just a bribed class. Government takes place at Westminster.
150

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:41:25
#162 / #161

What on earth does the size of the block grant have to do with making a local tax viable?
151

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:44:57
#164

Now, now... Salmond and Goldie could get a seat - Salmond would certainly be more suited to Westmister.
152

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 09:45:16
166 Changes in local taxation have an effect on the block grant.

Question what does the councils currently do when there CT income goes down?
153

Rosscobhoy,

12/02/2009 09:46:18
# 161

I predicted it...

It was obvious that it would happen as there was a lot of momentum behind the SNP at the time. Obvious thing to do is to prevent them from being able to do much. It was well known at the time that we were heading for recession and cutting public spending in this way can be done at times like this with fewer people taking notice.

The next time momentum builds they will remind us all that so many people in Scotland work in the public sector and independence will result in most of them moving South, just to ensure the massive public sector work force vote to retain the status quo.

It's an easy script to read. They know now that enough of us don't subscribe to the too small and stupid and poor viewpoint, and they have plenty of other ways to keep it as it is!
154

Rosscobhoy,

12/02/2009 09:47:03
# 168 should have been for #162 and not 161.....
155

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12/02/2009 09:49:07
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156

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 09:49:51
#167 Tormod

I give up - do they knit baby socks?

What is your favourite colour, by the way?
157

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 09:53:13
#148 Rufus
The minority SNP Government can only implement policies which can be funded and can command a majority within parliament.

With the proposed £500 million Westminster cut next year in the return of our own money the Government will require to find the resources from somewhere to fund yet another freeze in the council tax.
This year this freeze will be funded by a 5.9% increase in the funds allocated to Local Authorities, and a similar increase will be required next time round, from a smaller overall pot.

It is in the hands of the Unionist opposition whether or not this policy is implemented.

#153

The presence of a small number of independent MSPs can enhance the parliament, and I have the greatest respect and admiration particularly for Margo.

However, a parliament containing a large number of independents would be by its very nature fractious and lacking in direction.

It is difficult to see how such a parliament could find sufficient cohesion to say, pass a budget.
158

Skyrat,

Winchburgh 12/02/2009 09:55:23
See comment 15 by Peter Curran.

Says it all really. Good post!
159

,

12/02/2009 09:56:43
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160

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 09:57:02
The Tin Man @147

Thanks for that but it still doesn't answer the question so...

"The lie-bore party in Scotland (specifically Ian Grey) was asked a number of weeks ago to produce an alternative to LIT and CT (since it is acknowledged accross all parties that CT is unwelcome).

Can you tell me what his alternative is?"
161

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 10:03:40
#175

Why are you asking me? Labour's policies are up to them, and their paymasters. As far as I know they want to keep the CT. The party's with alternatives to the CT are the Lib Dems, SNP, and the Greens.
162

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 10:06:15
176

Thanks for that but still doesn't answer the question which is aimed at everybody.

So....

"The lie-bore party in Scotland (specifically Ian Grey) was asked a number of weeks ago to produce an alternative to LIT and CT (since it is acknowledged accross all parties that CT is unwelcome).

Can you tell me what his alternative is?"

I asked you as you answered previously. Stop squirming.
163

ecosseman,

FACT NOT PROPAGANDA 12/02/2009 10:08:12
CARBON FOOTPRINT WARNING-SAVE THE PLANET-WE ARE ALL DOOMED-


SCOTLAND SHOULD KEEP ALL MONIES RAISED HERE INCLUDING OIL REVENUE,SCOTCH,ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC
INSTEAD OF GOING TO LONDON,AND THEY IN TURN DRIP FEED US BIT BY BIT COSTING MILLION IN THE PROCESS

DO WE KNOW THE TOTAL COST OF RUNNING LONDON,YEAR IN YEAR OUT.

COME ON THE BRAIN WASHED LABOUR FOLK,TELL US.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
164

cabbage on tayside,

12/02/2009 10:16:54
Strange that Scottish Labouring and Scottish Borries
are happy to make hay about not replacing the Council Tax. Will they both be making the retention of Council Tax an election promise ? Thought not. Even worse was to see Ian Grey ( and he certainly is )and Scottish Labouring trying to align the fact that the Scottish Parliment could not get their budget through on the first vote. And whose fault would that be ? Empty vessels and much noise comes to mind.
165

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 10:19:03
#178

E-O, as the Tellytubbies say.

Do you think that Winnie the Pooh and Piglet should help to build a new house for E-oar?
166

Dave From Barra,

12/02/2009 10:19:11
Last December and this January have been the coldest for 20 years
167

IainGlasgow,

12/02/2009 10:19:25
Well at least Edinburgh got it's trams. We may have to wait a couple more years for LIT and writing off student debt but what are these minor things in comparison to the Capital's vanity?

The SNP now just have to make sure they will be ready to introduce the LIT bill right away in the next parliament, assuming the arithmetic is favorable. I don't really see Labour building any credibility by then let alone a viable alternative policy.

Could be worse though. I wonder how much council tax would be now if Joke McConnell was still FM
168

Laird O'Gorgie,

12/02/2009 10:24:15
Shock horror- Salmond and Swindler drop their flagship policy. Is anyone really surprised. Salmoan and his cronies have been a complete disaster, promising to revitalise Scotland and then going onto indulge themselves at the trough of smug self congratulation. Bring back the Unionists at least we know what their agenda is.
169

IainGlasgow,

12/02/2009 10:26:04
#164

Have you seen any of the Westminster front benchers? Do you really think any of THEM merit their posts?
170

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 10:27:02
183

Eh? They froze CT for the second year running and have dropped the price for prescriptions.

Lie-bour would never do that as part of thier "agenda". That's a good start in my book.

Of course, there is the renwable enterprise too. Lie-bore have made it clear that they don't believe renewables are viable. Anither guid start.
171

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 10:29:37
If the price we have to pay for winning the referendum and the next election with an increased majority, is to suffer the gloating of a few feeble-mined, cringing Unionists for a day or so, then that will be a price well worth paying.
172

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:33:16
A bad week for the SNP. Alex Neil recalled, now this.
173

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:34:53
And when the pressure on public sector funding comes (as it inevitably will), the Council Tax will soar. Another SNP shambles. Opposition was easy, wasn't it Eck?
174

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:35:35
Swinney is detested within the party. His head will roll next.
175

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:36:09
Has anyone seen Kenny MacAskill since his jaunt to Canada?
176

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 10:36:31
188

Doubt that. Will always be behind Englands soaring CT by at least 2 years.

You're jsut talking for the sake of it. Try thinking instead.
177

Dave From Barra,

12/02/2009 10:37:00
189

Prove that.

190 Yes, he was with your mum
178

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:37:16
I didn't vote SNP for it to drop this flagship policy. Resignations are needed.
179

Dave From Barra,

12/02/2009 10:38:09
You first.
180

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:38:47
192

Dave, if this is so, tell me - did they meet in heaven or hell?
181

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 10:38:54
171 CT makes up roughly 20% of local government income, most comes from the Scottish Government.

You would have to make local councils completely financially independent of any monies from central government for it not to be affected in changes to the block grant.
182

brownlie,

12/02/2009 10:39:02
164 Tweedmouth

Did you take note of the advice given by the most senior of the brilliant MPs, a front-bencher even, to businessmen on how to tackle the unemployment crisis.

"If you have any job vacancies can you let the Job Centre know". Sage advice from one noted for his prudence and sagacity. Oh, and his ability to save the world. Very impressive!!
183

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:39:38
Riled Dave? Do you pay Council Tax on Barra?
184

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 10:40:07
#193 wuMerchant correct
YOU DID NOT VOTE SNP
185

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 10:40:17
189 that's about the 200th time you've written that oh well it might come true if you really close your eyes and wish hard enough
186

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 12/02/2009 10:42:32
198

Nope, not riled in the slightest, you are though. Course my wife and I pay cooncil tax, you don't though as you are unemployed and you also didn't vote SNP.
187

Brian Smyth,

DUNDEE 12/02/2009 10:44:23
This is a consequence of having a minority government. It's inevitable that contentious policies will be difficult to deliver. It is as simple as that.
However I do agree with some of the other comments about failur to deliver key policies where Govt has control of the process, eg. class sizes and police numbers. Police numbers is inexcusable and class sizes is simple ineptitude. Ineptitude because it is simple to conclude more class rooms and teachers are required and class rooms in particular will take time to provide and it comes with a (big) cost. These issues have disappointed me about this Govt.
188

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 10:46:48
#162 So it's the size of the block grant that's the problem is it, will tell me then why did it take two years to work that out?

#163 You must have a vivid imagination, I support LIT. (It's possible that you are blind, if so I apologise)

189

brownlie,

12/02/2009 10:48:28
164 Tweedmouth

Would you like some more quotes to illustrate the high calibre of MPs at Westminster;

"No boom and bust"

"Weapons of mass destruction"

"45 minute warning of attacks"

"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

"Of course, I didn't lie on my mortgage application"

"Of course, I didn't get passports for my Indian friendly donaters"

"Of course, we don't give honours for cash"

My own personal favourite by a party-leading MP:

"Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government".
190

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:51:26
202

Brian, prove that you are in Dundee.
191

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 10:54:44
This is a very sensible move by the SNP.
192

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/02/2009 10:55:29
Does any of the unionists remember a certain promise about a referendum on the EU constitution???

Who promised that???

Do tell
193

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 10:56:44
#207 Thing is they don't think necessarily think "their own country" is the same thing that you think it is.

I can't believe how many nationalists seem to think they have some sort of moral right to foist their own definition of national identity on everyone else.
194

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 10:57:35
203 The other issue that has arisen is the statements from HMRC, that they will not collect a local tax centrally.
195

Shredder,

12/02/2009 10:59:28
#205 Buckpool Loony: perhaps the "poor" should consider moving to a lesser property with a lower CT Band.

I know that the first question from anyone looking into acquiring a property is:_ "what band is it in?" If someone chooses to live in a large house and spend a relatively large proportion of their income on the resultant CT bill then that's their lookout and only Tartan Tory Types can possibly feel any sympathy!
196

Nikostratos,,

12/02/2009 11:01:36
#205 Buckpool Loon


How is it 'social justice' when the main tax payers will be those on P.A.Y.E...Unlike the (many)wealthy who will be able to disguise their incomes and pay less then they should.

Consequently any short fall in revenue will fall back onto the P.A.Y.E tax payers to make up through a rise in their LIT payments.
197

Nikostratos,,

12/02/2009 11:02:30
#209

Ireland
198

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 11:04:13
#203 Please do not insult us anymore than you already have .
You were n here telling us all how business would flee because of LIT .
you Unionists are so incapable of honesty in anything it shows the shallowness of your argument against self determination.
you were on here banging away about how bad it was ,pretending to be a SNP voter that was upset .
God you lot will try any trick fair or foul and usually foul to support the discredited and rotten Unioon
199

Stuntman Mike,

12/02/2009 11:05:48
How interesting that 67% in the Scotsman's online poll support the scrapping of the unworkable poll tax 2, despite the usual flooding of comments by cybernat activists.
200

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:07:42
212 No they don't the first question folk ask is how much can I afford for my mortgage?

213 Wealthy individuals already limit there tax liabilities, point in case non doms for example.

The SNP will go away and try and design a form of LIT that has more support and try again next time.

The dynamic of who is
201

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/02/2009 11:09:37
#214

I wasn't aware Ireland promised anything??

They got the chance to reject the EU constitution.

Who promised us a vote??
202

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:10:13
A question is would HMRC share income data with local councils to enable them to levy the tax?
203

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 12/02/2009 11:10:42
Never mind little hicups like this! Just imagine, our illustrious leaders will soon be able to play golf on mentor Trump's Scottish Links! Won't that be nice!
204

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/02/2009 11:11:51
#216

I wouldn't put any store in anything this rag publishes!

Why are their sales figures plummeting???
205

Stan Butler,

12/02/2009 11:11:56

During First Minister's Questions in June 2007, Alex Salmond said: "We will support a local income tax...to paraphrase somebody from a few years ago: you turn if you want to. This administration is not for turning."


206

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 11:12:33
218
It's in their constitution. The Labour Party promised a referendum if the red line issues weren't dealt with. They were, hence no referendum here.
207

Doh,

12/02/2009 11:12:38


Disappointing that this progressive reform has been blocked by the conservatives in the Labour party.

I guess one question to ask David Cameron if he will block LIT (by withholding council tax rebates for example).

Hopefully in the next parliament the progressive party's will have a majority.
208

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 12/02/2009 11:12:43
180#TIN MAN

you seem to know all the kids shows- ARE YOU SANE!

give yourself a spray of WD40 that might help you think clearer.

roll on the election!
209

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 11:13:52
#215 You have either honestly got the wrong guy or are deliberately lying because you have no defense, if the story where I have "gone on about" this is a main one it should still be up there somewhere, why don't you go and find it? Post a link.

I'm a Unionist but I support LIT (there are quite a few others that do as well, I imagine some of them even voted SNP tacticaly against Labour because of it, but more fool them I suppose, I don't think they will do it again)

Also why is whether I support LIT or not relevant to my argument at all, I still stand by my points.
210

brownlie,

12/02/2009 11:16:41
213 Nikos

Perhaps you can tell us who set up the rules and conditions that enable the very wealthy to avoid paying their fair share of tax.

Who accepted a token bung of £30,000 from "non-doms" to enable them to avoid paying their fair share of tax?
211

,

12/02/2009 11:16:51
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212

,

12/02/2009 11:19:03
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213

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/02/2009 11:19:07
I see we're all saved!!

From The Independent,

"The Bank of England is ready to launch a policy of "quantitative easing" – printing money – in an effort to lift the economy out of what the Bank calls "a deep recession". The Bank's central forecast, in its latest Inflation Report, suggests that annual growth in the UK economy will hit a nadir of -4 per cent in the summer of this year."

Yes Comrade Broon has saved the world again!!
214

Mikey,

12/02/2009 11:19:35
Yes, roll on the election! Let's get rid of these sectarian, unionist oxygen thieves. Let's make Scotland a land for those who actually WANT to be Scots! I don't care where you were born, but if you want to be Scots, you will be welcome in Scotland!

As to those who were born here and wish they weren't, Gdgy and all his counterparts, you leave with nothing! Goodbye!!!
215

Ewan Oosami,

12/02/2009 11:19:54
Bring back the poll tax, it was fairer than the system which replaced it courtesy of the great unwashed.
216

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 12/02/2009 11:20:07
228#

WHAT!snp worse than broon and his darling.
this i must see

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
217

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12/02/2009 11:20:57
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218

Incandescent,

12/02/2009 11:22:14
#4 Rufus - "And let's not forget that the HMRC told them to shove it, as it was illegal!"

Wishful thinking - IR (as was) altered their computer systems almost ten years ago to deal with tax-varying powers.
219

brownlie,

12/02/2009 11:23:18
158 awhl

I like the self-righteous tone in which you criticised posters for slanging matches and in the next breath go on to pointlessly slag off the SNP. Nice going, awhl.
220

bill-alba,

fife 12/02/2009 11:23:36
Its one policy that won't get through the parliament so we'll just have to wait until independence to get the council tax removed, in the meantime I will be much better off due to the freeze on council tax...do the vichy scots on here think that we should have the council tax and are they happy to keep paying this high tax? (nb snp hypocrosy ive not call you a britnat)
221

ecosseman,

FACT NOT PROPAGANDA 12/02/2009 11:24:03
234#

SO COLONEL BLINK AINT ON THIS SHOW,PITY I LOVE A GOOD LAUGH.
222

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12/02/2009 11:24:14
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223

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:26:12
223 No they didn't, Labour said because the EU constitution was dead then no need for a referendum.

The treaty of Lisbon is almost identical to the proposed EU constitution.
224

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 12/02/2009 11:29:48
239#

YOU REALLY ARE A DRIBLING######.ARE YOU REGISTERED?
225

Ewan Randall,

12/02/2009 11:30:21
Did the Scottish government seriously attempt to create a LIT system which is fair?

Did the Scottish government create a LIT system which they could con much of the Scottish people to believe it was fair when it could hide a dark secret?

Which system is more morally repugnant, the council tax where a wealthy wage earner might only have to pay the same for their council tax as a neighbour who is far poorer, or the LIT where a super rich individual who isn’t paid a wage but lives on investment etc… could either live in that same house the other wealthy wage earner did, or even build a palace in its place, and not pay a penny in LIT?
226

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:32:11
230 By using QE the UK government is using this as a tactic to devalue Sterling and dillute the debt payments.
227

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12/02/2009 11:32:42
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228

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 11:32:52
In my #68, I asked SNP Hypocritical how to solve the Conundrum of the Scottish Parliament. I, now, open this question to answers from all the Unionist posters, especially those of NuLabTory.

Why has the SNP Government, with a DEFICIT of 45 votes, survived for almost 2yrs despite the daily condemnation of its policies by the opposition and the Scottish media?

Is there no mechanism, in the Scottish Parliament, for removing a Government, which so many politicians believe, is doing such a damage to Scotland.

#164, Tweedmouth.

Thank you for you reply.

Tweedmouth is IN FAVOUR of a return to DIRECT Westminster Rule.

Is this the view of the other Unionist posters?
229

Shredder,

12/02/2009 11:34:46
#217 Tormod: I used to work for an estate agency firm, so I ought to know!

I repeat: CT is in practice based on ablility to pay because the bigger the house, the wealthier you are. How many successful solicitors live in ex council semis?

Is Shredder right or is Shredder right!
230

brownlie,

12/02/2009 11:39:54
245 Frank Mcbride

Yes!
231

Ewan Randall,

12/02/2009 11:40:13
(#68) – (frank mcbride) – Is it possible that the unionist are hoping the SNP might burst their bubble in such a way that it would put off the electorate from voting for them from then on?
232

,

12/02/2009 11:40:14
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233

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:40:29
242 Ewan there many pro's and con's with any taxation system.

The SNP will obviously go away and try and design a system that will have more support in business community and parliament for the change.

The other large dynamic is of course Westminster.
234

brownlie,

12/02/2009 11:40:47
247 Shredder

No!

I understand you were busy in Glenrothes.
235

ochone,

Sauchie, clacks 12/02/2009 11:42:36
I have commented more than once on the fact that unionists who come on these sites never say what party they actually support, what is even stranger is, that this is also the case with any new ones who pop up.

It's also a bit strange that all of the would-be leaders of the labour party were in support of at least some form of LIT when compeating for the leadership of their party, yet as soon as that 'fight' was over, all mention of it was dropped.

As our unionists chums won't take even this opportunity to tell us who they support and why we should do like wise with that particular party, perhaps instead they will tell us how unionists in general are going to explain to the voters at the next Holyrood election why their party/s would not support a policy that is very popular in the public viewpoint.

C'mon don't be shy!
236

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 11:42:55
216 mike

How can we scrap something that doesn't exist?

Also, in what way is it like poll tax?
237

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12/02/2009 11:43:32
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238

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 11:44:06
#248 I don't have a right, you can vote for whoever you like.

I like being Scottish and British, I should be able to vote for who I like based on what I want.

You do not have the right to decide my national identity.
239

ptdoug.,

IOM 12/02/2009 11:44:48
216

The reason for the 67% vote agreeing with the SNP Governments decision to put the LIT on the back burner is that SNP members and supporters understand the Governments reasons for doing so... ie;

Whatever the government says, the unionist Block at Holyrood have made it clear they would NEVER support it and would have voted it down.

Parliamentry arithmatic alone, in this era of minority Government, makes it the sensible thing to do at present.

Secondly, the policy was sabotaged for party political reasons by Labour at Westminster.... By slashing by half a Billion £ Scotlands block grant next year....
and by refusing to hand over another half Billion £ of council tax rebates to the Scottish Parliament.

I, as an SNP supporter, agreed in the online poll that Swinney and Salmond have done the right thing...AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

The SNP has been strengthened and their support increased, the Unionist fox has been shot... and the SNP will now sit down with the LibDems to formulate an LIT proposal acceptable to both parties to be put forward as a major policy at the next Scottish election.

The LIT in theory is still by far the best and most just way forward for local funding.... and instead of dissing everything the Scottish Government proposes... perhaps the Unionists could actually try contributing with positive proposals for the replacement of the reviled Council Tax.

Yet again Salmond and the SNP are running rings around the opposition... as time will clearly show.

240

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 11:45:23
218 graham

Evidence please !
241

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 11:46:06
259 was meant for 223
242

Ewan Randall,

12/02/2009 11:46:14
(#252) – (Tormod) – What reasons do you think are there for the Scottish government to have made the errors with this LIT that they have?

Should the Scottish government have seen the errors much earlier
243

Laird O'Gorgie,

12/02/2009 11:46:27
#248 The problem is not with independance, which will inevitably come. The problem is that the SNP and Salmoan and Swindler in particular, try to pass themsleves off as custodians of Scotland but then go on to act even worse than the unionists.
244

,

12/02/2009 11:47:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
245

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:48:06
247 Well Shredder, I can only go with what I have personally experienced with myself, friends and family. Nobody when they look at house and price wonder how much CT they will pay, they always ask can I afford the mortgage.

The obvious problems when using a value of propery as a proxy for wealth is that valuation is based on what somebody is willing to buy that property for, the proxy is based on a estimation of wealth and not actual material income wealth.

Point in case I live in a semi with a conservatory my neighbours doesn't I would have paid more money for the property but we both pay the same council tax.

There would have to be yearly re-assesments on each house and property land value for it be anyway accurate.
246

,

12/02/2009 11:49:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
247

Stan Butler,

12/02/2009 11:49:51
#231 Mikey

So an indupandint Scotland won't have any immigration controls, is that the official SNP position?
248

ptdoug.,

12/02/2009 11:51:18
265

Are you seriously claiming the Picts invented Bingo????
249

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 11:51:47
247 Also Shredder there is the little matter of those you rent their property, they will receive no financial gain for living in that property.
250

,

12/02/2009 11:52:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
251

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 11:56:16
This idea of all taxes being fairer when they are based on the ability to pay is ridiculous. If you take it to its logical conclusion, you will tax everyone to the extent that every single person in Scotland has the same take home pay (or benefit). I'd be surprised if a Scotland taxed on this basis could retain its best scientists, entrepreneurs, builders, etc.

As already mentioned, if you don't want to pay a high council tax bill don't buy an expensive house. If you can afford to buy an expensive house, make sure that you can afford the council tax that goes with it.

Surely the fairest way to charge for council costs is to base it on an individual's consumption of council services. However, I think that you'll find that this would result in the majority of the costs being met by the poorest in society. So, council tax seems less burdensome on the least wealthy that the fairest way of charging for council outgoings.
252

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 11:57:27
This weekend we have the biggest shower of open Unionists on display in the city of Glasgow.
One mob supports the domination of one religion the Protestants over the other .( their main reason for supporting the union)
So many of same idiotic unionists on here support that stance because of a football team.
Rule Brittania and God Save the Queen mob.
Now to other mob equally unionist (my god check out their chairman)and probably more disgusting unionists than the other ones in blue
This lot are even more sickening they believe in Home rule for Ireland, but not the land of their birth .
So we have the mob in the south side of Glasgow that get all misty eyed for Rememberance Day and Battle of Britain movies, and another mob in the East of Glasgow that get misty eyed for all things Irish and love movies like Ryans Daughter.
They come together to vilify Scotland and its football team and openly support Ireland that is the Republic of Ireland not Northern Ireland or England strange people
Gordon Brown and the unionists love idiotic small minded fools like the ones you will see populating the stands of Parkhead on Sunday.
they are so easy to manipulate and use as pawns in their quest to keep power.
Divide and Rule, the greatest attribute of the Brit Nats in their long imperialistic history of conquest and subjegation of peoples
253

Ronaldinho Glavin,

12/02/2009 11:59:19
Sorry John Swinney, this is not a case of parliamentary arithmetic, it's a case of mental arithmetic.

Income tax falls as the economy falls, but property taxes are stable.

That's why sensible economists and public finance experts believe that taxation needs to be spread between property, income, duties, etc.

The policy was flawed from day one, as every expert the SNP dismissed told them (e.g. FSB, ICAS, CIPFA). With the fall in incomes a shift to income taxation was never going to work.
254

brownlie,

12/02/2009 12:00:17
262

Is that meant to be an illiterate caricature of someone?
255

Stuntman Mike,

12/02/2009 12:03:13
#255 connaught: " How can we scrap something that doesn't exist?

Also, in what way is it like poll tax?"

Any non property based system necessarily has more in common with a poll tax than anything else.

Also, as poll tax 2 was so unworkable that it was never likely to exist, will you admit that it was promoted as a ploy to garner support from many who had traditionally shunned your party because they recoiled in horror at the culty separatist agenda which the SNP insists on trying to shoehorn on to its other policies?
256

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 12:03:31
261 I think that there is lots of reasons, until the SNP pushed ahead to try and implement LIT, nobody could probably honestly say as these parts of the Scotland Act haven't been pushed before.

I think the budget problems are obviously in the front of John's mind, he is going to have to reduce his budget by £500m.

Would they get it through parliament I don't think they would.

The criteria seems to be the following :-

1. HMRC will not collect any tax for local government.

2. UK Government has said that CTB is reserved for a property tax only.

3. It would have to have the support of the Scottish business community.

4. It would have to have an element of assessment for income from non paye.

I would add that points 1 and 2 are political criteria and I would not be naive enough to believe that if any UK government wished to introduce some sort of LIT those two criteria would change.
257

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 12:09:24
#250, ER.

Are you saying that Unionist Politicians are so careless of the Common Weal, of the people of Scotland, that the will willing allow that Common Weal to be undermined, for Party Political advantage?

If so, shame on them!!!

And more shame on the people who voted for them, and continue to support them!!!!!
258

Shredder,

12/02/2009 12:12:28
#264 Tormod: are you trying to tell me that the amount of CT payable doesn't form a major part of someone's calculations when deciding if their household budget is capable of servicing a mortgage?

As for your conservatory example, I have to tell you that an addition such as that would not necessarily be reflect in the price a property fetched (although it might well increase the property's marketability, ie potential purchasers would be more likely to offer on such a property than a similar one in the same street without a conservatory)

It is disingenuous to imply that additions are a significant factor in distorting the differential between a property's actual valuation and the CT Band in which it has been put.
259

kennedysglass,

12/02/2009 12:16:16
#277 McBride: and a warm "sig heil" to you too!
260

Stan Butler,

12/02/2009 12:21:05


Like a lot of the Gnat's manifesto promises LIT was never properly thought out or costed. They just thought it looked good and would bring in some votes (like the grant to first time house buyers). That was all it was intended to do. They never thought it would be subjected to much scrutiny, never mind actually implemented.

This was because they didn't expect to win the election and were taken by surprise when they did (which explains why immediately after their win one of their MSPs went off on maternity leave).
261

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 12:22:08
275 Mike

That explanation was a clear as mince. Try again?
262

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 12:27:55
280 stan

"which explains why immediately after their win one of their MSPs went off on maternity leave)"

Yah numptie. She went off on maternity leave because she was pregnant !
263

brownlie,

12/02/2009 12:29:38
280 Stan

Quite right, Stan, it's not the first time a surprise caused a pregnancy.
264

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:30:28
The SNP supporter calling himself Eamon is also calling himself Mikey, he outed himself throu his plain stupidity here:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/New-SNP-MSP-sworn-in.4973459.jp#3750290

Just how many more ID's does Eamon/Mikey have on here. Typical SNP a handful of idiots with a mutiple of ID's. Sad and Pathetic. :-D


265

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 12:30:51
#278 Shredder

Perhaps a special sit-ootery tax could help fund a resurgence of the Pictish language, and make us all feel uncommonly weal?
266

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 12:33:49
Stan. You must really regret posting 280
267

Shredder,

12/02/2009 12:34:28
281. Either that, or you're as thick as mince!
268

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 12:34:36
Why is no Unionist poster, here, prepared to say why this vilified, incompetent SNP Government has not been replaced?

This "totally incompetent" SNP Government has a DEFICIT of 45 votes in Parliament. This means that the Opposition has 64% of the Parliamentary vote.

Parliamentary Rules require a 60% vote to force a new election: why is the Unionist Alliance not taken this opportunity?

Why, at least have they not replaced this "Incompetent" Government with one more competent?

I ask this sincerely, and would be grateful if some Unionist supporter or, even better some Unionist politician on-line, would answer the questions posed.

BTW, why has only, "RETURN to Westminster Rule", Tweedmouth, been prepared to attempt to answer the conundrum I posed at #68 and repeated at #245.

Are Unionist politicians and posters shy, or shysters?
269

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:36:30
What a pickle. The SNP look pretty pathetic today. Their flag-ship policy is in the dustbin, and shockingly it appears that they will try to use it again as an election promise in the next election. Are they serious? :-)
270

Stuntman Mike,

12/02/2009 12:37:20
281. Either that, or you're as thick as mince!
271

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 12:37:42
#279, kennedysglass.

An interesting comment. Would you care to be more specific with regard to your inference?
272

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 12:38:31
Just woke to the drama and yet another SNP broken promise.

So what does the SNP stand for now it's key manifesto promise has been pulled by Swindley?

Sham
No
Principle

How can any party retain its credibility under these circumstances?

Looking forward to Newsnight and FMQ tonight!!!!!!!!!

Salmond
No
Pleased


273

resident edinburgh,

12/02/2009 12:39:05
Now we know the first part of the Nationalist manifesto for the next election. Will the second be a referendum??? This will be on the basis of the big bad Westminster supporting parties won't vote for Nationalist policies as the Nationlists are a minority government. They carry these over until the next election and lie to the voters yet again. They will however carry out all policies in the manifesto that they don't need to get legislation or the vote of the Scottish Parliament for, carrying democracy to a new level.
274

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 12/02/2009 12:39:22
#92 sm753,12/02/2009 04:37:59
"There is no gainsaying the facts: the Nats have been exposed as either being too stupid to realise that LIT was unworkable, or they knew all along and lied to the public at the election."

LIT which is much more fair and just than Council tax could have been implemented were it not for the antagonism of Gordon Brown and the Westminster admionistration to the whole idea. By denying funds and cutting back on the amount of money Scotland receives under Barnet, Westminster has effectively put the ciabosh on LIT. The SNP Government have shown maturity and realism by putting LIT on the back burner.

In my view LIT can only come about when Scotland has Tax raising powers devolved to the Scottish Government thus allowing a root and branch reform of taxation. Perhaps the SNP should consider my preferred option 'Land Value Tax' which is based on the rental value of land itself.

'S Mise le meas
Niall Ban




275

Stuntman Mike,

12/02/2009 12:39:46
#288 mcbride: "Why, at least have they not replaced this "Incompetent" Government with one more competent?"


Because the culty fruitcakes in charge are gathering votes simply because they're not Labour, who have grown long in the tooth (as all UK govts do) after many years in power, OK?
276

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:39:46
149 SNP voting Moron/connaughtboy. As I pointed out to your idiotic SNP compadre (probably you in another ID) Newton did not 'invent' gravity. Got that?

Suggest you look up Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation. A schoolboy could put you straight on it, ya muppet.
277

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 12:40:06
#280 Brown’s Butler

“This was because they didn't expect to win the election and were taken by surprise when they did (which explains why immediately after their win one of their MSPs went off on maternity leave).”

That is a post of Rufus proportions of idiocy.

Did the lassie concerned suddenly become 25 weeks pregnant by over celebrating the “unexpected“ SNP victory?
278

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 12:40:41
#289 SNP

They are trying to attain their greenhouse gas emmisions targets by re-cycling the same pamphlets for two elections in a row.
279

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 12:41:15
Did the Picts build the Pyramid under the Forth?
280

fiferjohn,

12/02/2009 12:42:29
on a different note is it hearting to see scotland wales and northern isles kids being taught their own languges and it is gettinf more in demand .
we are reclaiming our identity and it is growing every day .they say the youngters are are future and so it seems and it is not looking like it is going the british way.
281

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:44:13
298, Oh aye good plan. Although keeping it in the bog and recycling it there would be just as environmentally friendly.
282

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 12:44:40
# SNP Hipocrisy.

Are you prepared to answer any of my posts at #68, #245 and #288?

Or are you, simply, as your moniker implies, a Hypocrit?

Will you're being abusive, in your reply, it would be nice if you answered my question also.
283

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 12:45:34
#301

What are your thoughts on the pyramid? and should conservatories be taxed?
284

The Tin Man,

12/02/2009 12:47:18
#302

What is the 'Unionist Alliance' btw?
285

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:47:35
292 Scottish 'N British, absolutely the SNP's credibility has gone. Would like to see Salmond being interviewed/grilled by Jeremy Paxman over this. LOL. Pwned...
286

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 12:47:50
287 shredded

At least you understood my post. Can you say the same about 275?
287

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:48:32
302. I don't usually read your posts, and since its you I can't be bothered scrolling up to read them. Have a nice day. :-)
288

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 12:48:53
The unionists seem to have their knickers in a twist today. I've rarely seen so much nonsense posted by them on the same thread. Full shift came in today I see.
289

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 12:50:42
288 frank mcbride,lusitania 12/02/2009 12:34:36
Why is no Unionist poster, here, prepared to say why this vilified, incompetent SNP Government has not been replaced?

This "totally incompetent" SNP Government has a DEFICIT of 45 votes in Parliament. This means that the Opposition has 64% of the Parliamentary vote.
======================================================

Because it suits the opposition better to watch the SNP crash and burn.

The SNP's ineptitude is showing more and more as time moves on. The last thing the opposition parties want to do is give Salmond a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.
290

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:51:31
308. Is that a fact? Only people around here with their k-nickers in a twist are the Natz, who apparently have chucked their flag-ship policy which they were elected on in the dustbin.
291

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 12:53:17
305 SNP hypocrisy,12/02/2009 12:47:35
292 Scottish 'N British, absolutely the SNP's credibility has gone. Would like to see Salmond being interviewed/grilled by Jeremy Paxman over this. LOL. Pwned...
====================================================
Exactly.

It was amazing how Salmond disappeared yesterday and left all his minions to take the flak.

Normally, you cannot get him off TV.

Not yesterday though.
292

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 12:53:28
#295, Stuntman Mike.

Your incoherence is staggeringly unenlightening.

Could you try again, using recognisable english this time?
293

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 12:56:22
297 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 12/02/2009 12:40:06
That is a post of Rufus proportions of idiocy.
=======================================================

HAHAHA

Superb, coming from the man who pulled me up on spelling and on numeracy and he was wrong both times.

You are the idiot Bully Boy.
294

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 12:56:33
311. Indeed, Salmond only steals the limelight and takes the bows (often someone else's) when it suits him to eg. The Commonwealth Games which he had nothing to do with.

Didn't he do the very same thing the morning after Glenrothes when he ran away from a scheduled Newsnight interview?
295

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 12:57:40
294
"LIT which is much more fair and just than Council tax"...aye, that'll be why the super-rich outwith the PAYE would have been excused paying it.
Pompoous buffoon........
296

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 12:58:52
314
Yes he did. He also hightailed it out the commons because he was such a failure down there and he smelled glory....
297

Stuntman Mike,

12/02/2009 12:58:53
#308 Observer: "The unionists seem to have their knickers in a twist today. I've rarely seen so much nonsense posted by them on the same thread. Full shift came in today I see. "

Are you missing British Flag?
298

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 12:59:14
289 Hype

Clearly you didn't see FMQ. Salmond came out on top as usual. Earl Gray looked foolish as usual.
299

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 12:59:15
#309 Rufus

Is it lunch time at your call centre already?

“Is there anything else I can help you with today”

“No, well, have a nice day”
300

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 13:00:51
#309, Rumpus (in his own head).

Thank you, Rumpus, for you very truthful answer.

It is sad to see that the Unionist Parties would rather see Scotland burn, for Party Political gain, rather than constructively govern for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

Shame on them!!!!!!!!!

More shame on those who voted for them and continue to do so!!!!!!!!!!!



BTW, thanks for the help with this crappy site. Still having the same problem, but can cope with it better.
301

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/02/2009 13:03:14
296 hyp

If you care to re-read my post at 149, you will find that I was quoting another poster (the clue is the quotation marks!)
302

,

12/02/2009 13:03:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
303

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:04:32
318. Iain Grey has not yet been granted a peerage. I'm sure for his sterling work in dealing with the pesky Gnatz he will no doubt in time earn one.
304

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 13:04:33
#313 Rufus

Remind us all again of the benefit you believe will accrue to the UK Treasury from North Sea revenues?

Are you now aware of who are, and who are not Scottish Government ministers?

Where did you learn to spell in the Gaelic?
305

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 13:05:37
#307 THE Hpocrit.

This answer shows you for what you are. A Unionist shyster who is not prepared to defend his comments.

A typical Unionist who would rather see an "incompetent" Government bring Scotland to its knees, rather than bring it down and let the electorate chose an alternative Government.

Shame on cowards, like you!!!!!!!!!
306

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:05:55
321. I can't be bothered deciphering your babbling. So no I won't bother looking, ta. :-)
307

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 13:05:59
318
Mr Salmond was a parody of himself, a tired bully bellowing empty bluster with nothing to say for himself. His snideness is wearing thin...
308

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 13:06:25
319 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 12/02/2009 12:59:15
#309 Rufus
Is it lunch time at your call centre already?
“Is there anything else I can help you with today”
“No, well, have a nice day”
=====================================================

Oh dear. More jealousy from Bully Boy.

He cannot stand the fact that I earn far more than him.

He worked out (incorrectly) how much I earned when we were discussing LIT a while back and started banding details of my salary all over this forum.

What a sore loser you are Bully Boy.

Then he comes on here and has a sly dig at Call Centre workers. Dear oh Dear.

Poor Bully Boy.

Maybe he dreams of a Call Centre job and he failed the aptitude test.

Very sad Bully. Just because you are not good enough does not mean you have to berate our learned colleagues who work in Call centres.
309

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 13:07:58
324 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 12/02/2009 13:04:33
#313 Rufus
Remind us all again of the benefit you believe will accrue to the UK Treasury from North Sea revenues?
Are you now aware of who are, and who are not Scottish Government ministers?
Where did you learn to spell in the Gaelic?
==================================================

Oh Dear, sounds like Bully Boy has flipped.

310

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:10:01
HEHEHEHE, LAUGH, I NEARLY CR=PED MYSELF! What a sound goverment you have in scotland, NOT!
311

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:10:53
325. Frankenstein McBride, I saw nothing to defend. I saw only your rants about this and that, topics which I find uninteresting and untrue. I just can't be bothered, scrolling up to read more of your rants. Have a nice day.

As for the SNP being brought down through their utter incompetence. They don't need the help of the opposition to do this for them, since they are doing such a wonderful job on their own without any help. Well done the SNP.
312

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:11:50
Miss H aka Mr H will be devostated!!
313

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 13:12:48
#323
“Iain Grey has not yet been granted a peerage. I'm sure for his sterling work in dealing with the pesky Gnatz he will no doubt in time earn one.”

Surely you meant “buy one”.

How much does a peerage cost these days?

314

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:12:53
Deary me. Rufus you get the Walter Mitty prize today, in the absence of Sam the bam.
315

,

12/02/2009 13:12:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

,

12/02/2009 13:13:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
317

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:13:55
332 Why ?
318

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:16:18
I think the biggest U turn in the Scottish Parliament was Labour's over Wendy's famous ''bring it on''. How quickly did that turn into 'take it away''.
319

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:17:30
319. No shame in working in a call-center wee nationalist bully boy. It would be a good career move (and at the skills and educational level) for about half of the SNP currently sitting in Holyrood.

Of course research at Edinburgh University recently proved that SNP voters have the lowest IQ's in Scotland. You should try applying for a call-centre roll yourself, but you know that job might be just beyond your mental/educational abilities. If all else fails try McD's it's a no-brainer.
320

The Master,

12/02/2009 13:17:46
#325 Mcbride: have you ever tried listening to yourself?
321

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:18:02
snp hypocrisy what a pathetic little person you are.
When you mature and leave school and look back on this you will be so embarrassed at how stupid you behaved on a public forum
Its lunchtime I thought you would have been at dinner school anyway
322

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 13:19:28
278 No shredder I didn't say that, I responded to yourself when you said that in your experience the first thing folk ask is how much CT will I pay.

I countered that by saying that in my experience it is how much mortgage can I afford and then folk work back to calculate the associated costs.

Again mortgage first and foremost, in my experience.

Again when I used the example on my own property it was to show the flaw in using property as a proxy for wealth, I know for a fact I paid £15,000 more for my property because it had a very large and spacious conservatory.

We are both in the same band, I paid more for my property using your criteria as using property as a proxy for wealth, I should pay more property tax.

CT is flawed on many levels, there has to be a yearly review to make it accurate if you wish to use it as a proxy for wealth.

Again how can a rent payer pay a tax on a property they do not own as a proxy for wealth?
323

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:19:40
339 If one is going to pose as an intellectual it is a good idea to learn how to spell. One would have a 'role' in a call centre, not a 'roll'. Them's what you eat for lunch.
324

Rodster,

glasgow 12/02/2009 13:20:02
Ah the master de bater has joined too , must be a full shift on in Keir Hardie house today.
got ot make up for all the time off you all need for the Clash of the Glasgow Old Unionists United footy match on Sunday huh?
325

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:20:50
256. Arfur, ok now that you've listed the SNP election promises, why don't you list the ones they actually delivered on. A lot of the nonsense you listed has just not happened.
326

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:21:43
Swindley talks it up as a "rational considered conclusion".

Say, again?

SNP HQ talk for deceit at election time. As the clock ticked, Swindley was forced to own up to the fact that it was unworkable, as many of us said.

Pity the muddle-heided numpties masquerading as SNP activists and voters who now have to defend the point that SNP ministers decided not to go ahead.

lol

Now 'outed' as the charlatans they really are, the SNP have got nowhere to hide.

It's Time

for the Fed/Unionists and the Greens (there's nae point mentioning Margo) to turn up the heat on this parcel o' rogues.

Bring It On.
327

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:21:57
344 Yes we seem to be playing with a full deck of unionists, even if they are not quite the full deck themselves.
328

Arfur,

12/02/2009 13:22:27
338 Observer,, - that wasnt a u turn it was a ununun turn.

bring it on, whats that Gordon? okay no actually dont, bring it on, whats that Gordon? no actually dont. bring it on..........etc etc etc
329

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:24:01
Nothing less than squirm and spin from the Separatist lackeys.

330

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:24:56
337. As a loyal party member,she/he will be most upset!
331

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:25:51
348 Yes it was pathetic. However, LIT will be brought forward again, if the unionists want to campaign against it, quite frankly that suits me. Vote for me and retain the hated council tax, that will have them queueing up to vote Labour, not. So this is not a U turn, merely a postponment. A pragmatic decision, in all the circumstances.
332

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:27:27
337 Well you would need to ask her, but I doubt it. You see this isn't actually a defeat for us.
333

Stan Butler,

12/02/2009 13:27:52

Now that the gnats have dropped LIT I wonder what odds the bookies are offering on them dropping the referendum.

Do any of you cyber gnat punters know?

Mibaes you aren't so keen on having a flutter these days since you got your fingers burnt trying to fix the odds in Glenrothes. Whit a master-stroke that wuz.


334

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:28:45
351. Brought forward again as an SNP election pledge maybe? LOL! Damn you should partner with Frankenstein and get on the telly, Cannon and no Balls, Morcambe and Stupid, The Two Johnnies...
335

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:28:53
351. LIT will be brought forward again, not anytime soon it won't!
336

,

12/02/2009 13:29:59
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337

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/02/2009 13:30:33
353 why don't you try and place a bet then Stan ? Put your money where your mouth is - but what with yesterday's re-shuffle and the govt clearing the decks like this, I don't think you would get good odds. Maybe ask Eck for a tip - he's quite good at it.
338

brownlie,

12/02/2009 13:31:09
309 Rufus

So the opposition's role is to "watch the SNP crash and burn". Seems like typical unionist negativity along the same lines as SM753's and your own admission to ludicrous postings to try and provoke angry responses.

This admission on behalf of the unionists will go down well with the electorate when they publish that in their manifesto.

SNP hypo - Interesting comment about changing monikers from you when you change monikers when you get ridiculed into looking for a new one. Hypocrisy - you are well named.
339

Observer,,

12/02/2009 13:32:24
354/355 I suggest you read the article before commenting. You can read ?
340

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:32:57
The snp are about bandjacked,so please go now and save yourselves the humiliation of defeat at the next election.
341

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 13:33:43
353,354,355 Hey it's the three stooges, who boys better be careful you might hurt yourselves with that rapier intellect and wit! :-)
342

SNP hypocrisy,

12/02/2009 13:34:14
359. Whatever you say Frankenstein/Ploughman's Hunch.
343

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 13:34:39
360 Easy pal that might be asking for too much!
344

,

12/02/2009 13:37:09
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345

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:37:51
364. Auld Reekie,Reekie being the Operative word,phew!
346

Brian Hill,

12/02/2009 13:38:11
The headline says it all:

"SNP forced to drop flagship tax policy"

The operative word being FORCED.

This was no cavalier ditching of an unpopular policy.

On the contrary, this was a popular flagship policy among the people of Scotland which was deliberately sabotaged by London Labour withholding £500million of Scottish Government money, making it next to impossible to finance the policy.

Had the entire Parliament given its support to this policy the Scottish Government would have fought to implement it tooth and nail, but Labour and the Tories combined to force the Scots People to labour under this unfair tax for another two years of this Parliament.

No doubt they will be 'rewarded' by the voters at subsequent elections beginning with Europe later this year.
347

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:38:14
"HEHEHEHE, LAUGH, I NEARLY CR=PED MYSELF! What a sound goverment you have in scotland, NOT!"

Titter ye not, as Frankie Howerd would say, or "Oi, pal, it's no funny", as we say...

Now you understand why they command less than 25% in polls for taking Scotland out of Britain.

Face it, this SNP lot could'nae run a p1sh up in a brewery.....

348

,

12/02/2009 13:38:40
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349

,

12/02/2009 13:40:34
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350

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/02/2009 13:41:24
351
The one over-riding point here is that by their own admission, the architects of the SNP's LIT policy admit that it is not resilient enough to withstand periods of austerity.
It is in fact unworkable at 3p in the £ - the rate is nearer double that (which, surprise, surprise is exactly the kind of figure touted by the financial experts who spent so much time trashing the amateur -hour economic policies of the SNP).
The LIT was nothing more than cynical posturing from a discredited administration dedicated to causing conflict with our government in Westminster.
This SNP adminstration has the whiff of fin-de-siecle about it - resembling the final months of the ill-fated Trotskyist-led Liverpool council: their policies exposed as no more than empty slogans and bravado perpetrated by egotistical bully boys who concentrate morewith personality than policy.
351

,

12/02/2009 13:41:48
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352

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:41:52
357

Aye, winning at Glenrothes and getting his beloved LIT are perfect examples.

lol
353

,

12/02/2009 13:42:11
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354

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:42:22
369. They couldnae run a pi== up in a distillery never mind a brewery!
355

Shredder,

12/02/2009 13:43:01
#342 Tormod: " Again how can a rent payer pay a tax on a property they do not own as a proxy for wealth?"

Anyone who rents tailors the size of property they choose according to how much they can afford in rent each month, so again CT is in practice related to ability to pay.

#371 Willie: as long as it's a thoroughly Scottish animal you're pleasuring yourself with (such as a wildcat or...a wildcat; red squirrels are found in pockets, elsewhere after all), you're certainly a good Nat!

I still think you're being unnecessarily pedantic in insisting on yearly reviews of CT banding: I wouldn't have thought that the numbers who have improved their property so much that the banding has become obsolete would be so great as to make the exercise worthwhile in practice.
356

Texan Scot,

Rosehearty 12/02/2009 13:43:12
Let's do some joined up thinking about this. Why not come up with a plan that combines CT, LT and LVT, so that EVERYONE pays one of them?
357

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 13:43:16
366 Past tense. I thought your flag was red and had a small emblem of a scythe and a hammer and a large picture of a rose on it?
358

,

12/02/2009 13:44:11
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359

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 13:45:20
#328 Rufus
Absolute drivel as usual, on a number of levels.

I previously pointed out how much any individual would require to earn, in order for that individual not to benefit from the SNP proposed LIT.
You claimed to earn in excess of that figure.
You have no idea of who I am, or what I earn.

You further claimed to have spent “loads of money” in the apparent belief that you were taking advantage of the temporary reduction in the rate of VAT, without any understanding of what the effect of this tax is upon businesses and the economy as a whole.


I suspect that you may be a “call centre” worker, not because I have any particular disdain towards those who are required to find employment in that particular sector, but because you appear to be an enthusiastic follower of a formulistic, unthinking response pattern to any questions posed.

Such is the legacy of the dumbing down of Scottish society, as promoted by our labourite former overlords.
360

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:45:52
371

Where HAVE you been for the last 18 hours?

Under yer bed?
Remember to watch Newsnight Scotland tonight. What's the betting on seeing Rent an Excuse' Neil doin' Salmon's bidding for him?

lol

361

The Master,

12/02/2009 13:47:49
#377 Flag: Nats are so unhappy in the big bad UK that they actually want to create a crappy, poor wee country for themselves to be miserable in!

#380 Tormod: I wouldn't antagonise the Flag, if I were you!
362

,

12/02/2009 13:49:40
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363

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:49:41
380. My flag is part of your flag,so don't start!
364

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:49:53
382

"Such is the legacy of the dumbing down of Scottish society, as promoted by our labourite former overlords."

And where have YOU been?
FYI, the lot at Holyrood have no credibility, having dumbed down their manifesto to populist things like tolls on bridges and single prescription charges!!

365

Tris,

12/02/2009 13:50:12
Mr Gray seems to be happy that poor people will continue to pay tax out of all proportion to what they can afford.

Bravo to the Labour Party. I have no doubt that Keir Hardy will be proud of him.

366

British flag,

12/02/2009 13:51:44
385 WHY, on gods green earth would you support a facist party like theP
367

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:51:56
Can I just point out that the SNP are still in governent.

It is their policies which aren't.


368

,

12/02/2009 13:54:06
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369

,

12/02/2009 13:55:00
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370

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:55:32
388

Cheer up. Seeing your No.1 policy dumped by your own party isn't nice, I accept,

But it's not the end of the world.

It only feels like it.

SNP = credibility shot to smithereens by Swindley.
371

,

12/02/2009 13:56:31
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372

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 13:57:36
378 I not being pedantic, my critique of using CT as a proxy for wealth is for it to be accurate and fair it has be revalued yearly.

Yes it is the rent they can afford that is the factor, the rent payer does not gain from the property, therefore it cannot be used as proxy for wealth.

CT on both rental and private housing is static and locked at the time of agreement, using property as a proxy for wealth to calculate CT is flawed.

There has been no revaluation to the bands since CT was introduced. So we have the situation were your property value has to be reversed back to what could have been it's value in 92/93, it's nuts.
373

,

12/02/2009 13:57:50
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374

Brian Hill,

12/02/2009 13:57:52
Feeling brave, I had a squint at Mr Negative, Doom and Gloom Rufus who quite remarkably manages to be first post yet again, heavens you would almost think he either works for the Scotsman or was phoned every time a story was about to go live.

Anyway, just want to say KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK Mr Rufus. If you think for a second the voters in Scotland reading your posts are going to sit back and think, my God Mr R is right you know, we are as thick as #*#* and indeed we must be as backward as...what was it, Bulgaria, Romania, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia?

That's it then, it's back to the SAFETY of Labour, Tory or indeed ANYBODY who is going to keep us safe and warm in the arms of mother England...I mean mama Britania.

That's almost as good as Ian Gray dreaming of the SNP in 'meltdown'.....quite amazing for a party at the top of the polls whose MAJOR policy of Independence is gaining support despite the best efforts of Mr R, Ian G and all the so called Scottish medja news teams.
375

Scottish 'N British,

12/02/2009 13:58:30
394

Phew

Given Swindley's unglorious performance yesterday....methinks millions of Scots will be breathing a huge sigh of relief at not supporting Separation from the rest of Britain!!



ettre to be Scottish and in The Union than ay my hat on the witless wonders runnnig Holyrood, a.k.a John and Eck!!
376

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 12/02/2009 14:00:06
Oh dear, all this nonsense about u-turns and damaged credibility - seems that this has generated a lot of unionist wishful thinking again. Dreaming doesn't make things happen. The political landscape of Scotland has changed forever. May I remind you all of the greatest ever, unfulfilled unionist dream:

"Devolution will kill the SNP"
377

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/02/2009 14:01:17
I'm still waiting for the Unionists to answer the conundrum. #68, #245 & #288.

That means, THE Hypocrit, BF and now, The Master and Sam (the Father of the Saviour of the World inter alia.

Tweedmouth and Rumpus (in his own head) have answered).

Tweedmouth wants a return to DIRECT Westminster RULE!!!

Rufus wants to see Scotland "BURN" for Unionist Party political gain!!!

Why don't you answer, Hyocrit? Is it because you are not only a Hypocrit, but a coward ashamed of your proclaimed beliefs?
378

John S,

12/02/2009 14:01:51
#288 frank mcbride.Why is no Unionist poster, here, prepared to say why this vilified, incompetent SNP Government has not been replaced ? could it be that they the opposition are all mouth and no action when all they need to do is propose that Parliament should be dissolved.
Parliament itself can resolve that it should be dissolved, with at least two-thirds of the Members (ie. 86 Members) voting in favour, the Presiding Officer proposes a date for an extraordinary general election. In the current Parliament it would require the support of the SNP group, or at least 4 of its Members, to pass a dissolution resolution.

The opposition should propose that Parliament dissolved, the SNP may then support the dissolution resolution and we will have an extraordinary general election, they (the opposition) are not that confident to trust the people so I guess "put up" solution is not an option so neither is "shut up" because they are all mouth and like to waffle on and on and on but are afraid to propose that Parliament be dissolved.
Come on bring it on and propose the that Parliament dissolved for the good of the country and replace this incompetent SNP Government,you owe it to Scotland.
379

,

12/02/2009 14:03:03
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380

,

12/02/2009 14:07:19
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/02/2009 14:07:23
398 Talking to your reflection in that way is interesting?
382

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 14:08:14
320 frank mcbride,lusitania 12/02/2009 13:00:51
BTW, thanks for the help with this crappy site. Still having the same problem, but can cope with it better.
=============================================

Good afternoon Frank. Yes I am still having teh same problem. I guess we just have to live with it for th etime being.
383

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 12/02/2009 14:08:43
284#
better keep your bedroom light on tonight,cos THE SNP are EVERYWHERE.

335#
SPOT IN AGAIN MY FRIEND,KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
384

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/02/2009 14:09:16
320 frank mcbride,lusitania 12/02/2009 13:00:51
#309, Rumpus (in his own head).

Thank you, Rumpus, for you very truthful answer.

It is sad to see that the Unionist Parties would rather see Scotland burn, for Party Political gain, rather than constructively govern for the benefit of the people of Scotland.
=======================================================

Frank, that is politics my friend. The parties are all the same. The SNP would not do any different.

385

Brian Hill,

12/02/2009 14:09:43
Taking a closer look at the hundreds of posts on this thread I've just noticed the huge number of unionists who have come out of their burrows because they think they're onto a good thing.

It's called 'believing your own propaganda' chaps and it's something you should never do.....on the other hand, keep it up, it makes our job as Independent Thinkers easier.