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Glasgow East by-election: Abortion and embryo controversies back in spotlight for final days of campaign

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Published Date: 19 July 2008
CATHOLIC churches are alerting parishioners to the views of the Glasgow East by-election candidates on abortion and embryo research days before they go to the polls.
The Scotsman has learned that information detailing the position of the four main candidates is being pinned to church noticeboards.

An anti-abortion campaign group, Right to Life, has sent letters to 11 churches in the constituency spelling out t
he beliefs of Labour's Margaret Curran, the SNP's John Mason, Ian Robertson of the Liberal Democrats and Tory, Davena Rankin.

It comes after the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, described the controversial Embryology Bill as "monstrous".

This week the Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, in a letter to The Scotsman, said Labour had "introduced more anti-family and anti-life legislation than any government in living memory".

Parish priests said they would not be instructing their flocks how to vote but would emphasise their "moral obligation" to cast a vote.

Labour's Ms Curran believes that a high turnout will boost her chances of success. She told The Scotsman: "One thing I'm picking up is that all the details on human embryos is not a party political issue. People across the parties take different views. It's very much a moral conscience issue."

She refused to discuss whether she held religious beliefs. But she added: "I have got a good relationship with the churches in my constituency. I absolutely respect their morality and their ethics."

Father Allan Cameron, of St Jude's Church in Barlanark, has posted the Right to Life leaflet in his church. He said: "It will be an issue, but I don't know if I would say it was a key issue. It would be something that church-going Christians would take into account. I don't think the Catholic population is any different from anybody else from that point of view. There are people who are life-long Labour supporters, people who are life-long SNP supporters, and people who have a life-long antipathy to politics."

Monsignor John Woods, of St Joseph's in Tollcross, said: "I think I will say to them on Sunday that we have discussed this already at various meetings. All I ask is that you make use of the vote you are entitled to."

He felt he had seen little change in the constituency's problems over the past 11 years.

"Obviously crime, poverty, unemployment, alcohol and drug abuse – these are things that are the real scourge of the community.

"There is better housing but sadly we have got a bad record of voting in this constituency. I would hope in this election, since the spotlight is very much on them, that people will make use of their vote."

Father William Moran, of St Anne's in Parkhead, said: "I pray that people exercise their democratic right to vote and that it will be for the best for the local community and the success of the whole UK."

He said he would not be telling others how to vote, but said: "I'm pro-life. I'm abhorred by abortion. There's no question it's one of the most awful scars on our society. The denial of the right to life by another human being is the most awful decision. We have no right to say somebody else shouldn't live."

Phyllis Bowman, Right to Life's campaign director, said: "People resent being told how to vote. But whatever my decision, I would still want to know whether I was voting for a pro-abortion candidate or one who was against abortion on demand."

Where the candidates stand on difficult issues

MARGARET CURRAN (Lab)


Backs the current 24-week time limit on abortion and supports Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, on the embryology bill at Westminster, which updates the law on human-animal "hybrid" cells for research.

JOHN MASON (SNP)

Opposes abortion on demand and so-called "social abortion". Is "extremely uncomfortable" with embryo experimentation.

However the SNP allows its MPs a free vote and he would listen to all views before voting.

IAN ROBERTSON (Lib Dem)

Supports present abortion laws and backs the embryology bill.

DAVENA RANKIN (Con)

Supports the present law on abortion and would also back the embryology bill.



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1

Rufus T. Firefly,

19/07/2008 00:08:06
Cardinal O'Brien says it's immoral to use human embryos when researching possible cures for diseases such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Surely it's far more immoral to pass up the opportunity to find a cure for these killer diseases?

I wonder if the Cardinal's opinion would change if he himself was afflicted with such diseases.
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

19/07/2008 00:09:55
Scientists should be able to find cures using these methods - and if anybody finds these methods unethical then they should deny themselves the cure if ever they are struck down with said diseases. Problem solved.
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

19/07/2008 00:14:31
I'm continually hacked off with them sticking their two bobs worth in to every debate that goes on in this country, and the sooner somebody tells them to wind their neck in and give us peace the better.

They are not a church. They are rapidly turning in to an unelected political party and we are supposed to toe the party line as far as they are concerned. I hear more of them than I do the actual opposition parties. Something just not right with that.

They want to run the country, then put themselves up for election. Lets see where that gets them.

As for the debate on the research, the answers on this board already. Don't agree with it, don't accept any of the treatment. Simple. Don't hinder the people that do need and want it though.
4

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 00:27:52
Why does Scotland have to suffer the media's parochialised fixation on religion in Glasgow?
5

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 00:30:57
Do weegies give a hoot about the importance of a bull at the Perth market?
6

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19/07/2008 00:34:25
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7

Darien,

Panama 19/07/2008 00:34:36
Problem in this constutency as in many others is lack of education among voters. The poorly educated don't really know what to vote, or mostly don't vote. Ignorance is not really bliss. If they had any intelligence they would vote SNP - its quite obvious Scotland would be one of the most prosperous nations on the planet. But voters in Glasgow East still need a wee bit education to figure that one out. If they had any memory they would see what voting Labour for the past 30 years + has achieved - i.e. Zip! But don't hold yer breath. Scotland never ceases to amaze.
8

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19/07/2008 00:36:24
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19/07/2008 00:37:54
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19/07/2008 00:40:09
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19/07/2008 00:42:52
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Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 00:44:22
#1

The point about an objective morality is that it is independent of any person's own particular circumstances or perspective. A thing is either right or wrong irrespective of circumstance.

Cardinal O'Brien's own particular health issues would not change the rightness or wrongness of embryo experimentation.

This is not a position widely accepted today as for many the saying 'well, it's ok for me' or 'no-one else can tell me what's right or wrong'is the basic moral position. The very existenece of long standing civil laws is a denial of this position.
13

psycho,

edinbra 19/07/2008 00:44:59
Labour are an anti life party(apart from a few individual politicians who have adopted an ethical stance)and will fail in the longer term because no thinking person will trust them
14

Darien,

Panama 19/07/2008 00:49:55
Dinnae see much o' the Taliban doon the Co-Op these days. Suggest (withoot coercion) ye get yersel tae the Kirk this Sunday, in this "democratic land". A wee lecture wid dae ye guid, hen.
15

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 00:50:35
#18

Why do Churches not have a right to express an opinion in matters of public policy. Each person has a right, groups have rigths. You wouldn't say that Greenpeace or Stonewall couldn't speak out, why not the Catholic Church?
16

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 00:54:54
So who decides which groups have a rigth to speak? Or how is it to be decided?
17

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:01:16
When did anyone say that they wanted you to go away and die?

Does a group like Exit have a right to speak (they advocate assisted suicide)? If they can say that does no other group, religious or not, have a right to oppose them?
18

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 01:03:26
If this was the only issue, I might vote for John Mason. Ahem! As if!

But if it’s moral issues we’re discussing, why is the SNP trying to give voters the false impression that voting their man into the seat would put an extra £48 per household per week (£2500 per year) into their pockets?

An SNP election leaflet reads: “£48 extra per household. Isn’t it time you got your share of Scotland's oil windfall? SNP On your side”

http://tinyurl.com/5daboj
19

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:06:22
Numpty Heid,

You haven't answered any of my questions. You just keep repeating the same thing.

What's your problem?
20

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19/07/2008 01:08:36
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21

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:08:58
You haven't asked any questions, just made assertions. Give me a question!
22

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

19/07/2008 01:09:57


Curran is heading for a fall this week.

her continual feigning 'I respect your position' nonsense is political mumbo jumbo, ,

She is full of empty promises and it's starting to trip her up as she makes promises that she either can't keep or has indeed already voted against....

How Margaret Curran voted on key issue

Voted Against returning Attendance Allowance to pay for Free Personal Care [italic]despite Lord Sutherland's Report saying it should and despite Margaret Curran saying, on behalf of the Labour party, saying they fully accepted the report.[/italic]

Voted against scrapping the Council Tax

Voted to hamper councils building new council houses by not restricting right to buy legislation.

Voted against scrapping the graduate endowment fee

Failed to support a freeze on the Council Tax. (Abstained)

Failed to support record spending for local authorities. (Abstained)

Failed to support reducing prescription charges - a tax on the ill. (Abstained)

Failed to support 1000 extra police officers on Scotland's streets- there will 750 extra in Strathclyde. (Abstained)

Voted against new patient rights.

Failed to vote against the development of Trident II

Voted to spend half a billion pounds on a tram line in Edinburgh - money which could, in part be spent on key transport objectives in Glasgow.

Supports £500,000 per child ASBO's
23

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19/07/2008 01:17:45
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24

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:18:57
#34

The position of people who oppose embryo experimentation is that it violates basic human dignity. To say that the main criterion for judging the rightness of an act is whether it produces something which is useful means that practically anything is allowable in theory.
It is ironic when there is growing opposition to animal experimentation that there is a campaign to allow such experimentation on human embryos - and the important word here is embryo.
You may not agree with this position, do you not want to hear opposition to your position. If you don't, that's hardly democratic.
Is your problem with the source of criticism, if so then that begs all sorts of question. I only ask again why should the Catholic Church not have the right ask people what such experimentation does to human dignity?
25

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19/07/2008 01:21:22
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19/07/2008 01:24:30
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27

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:32:30
Numpty,

Thought you had gone to bed. It's not about religion it's about who we are as human persons. You're view is different from that of mine.

Your assertions are not part of rational debate, they are deeply felt and so emotive statements. Your motivation for such emotive assertions is not clear, one inference is bigotry, another perhaps that you or a loved one suffers from some tragic illness.

As I asked earlier, what is your problem? It's obviously got you all worked up.
28

monkey man,

19/07/2008 01:38:49
# 39 Wee Hugh


The RC Church is perfectly entitled to its view but for them to disingenuously state they aren't telling its punters how to vote when they clearly are. They are dangerously bringing religion and sectarianism into this eletion by their seedy behaviour.

We were warned repeatedly that with Devolution would also come the inevitable grab for power and influence at Holyrood from the extreme right-wing RC Church and the then Archbishop Winning didn't disappoint with his emotional blackmail of Scottish RC Labour politicians within the "parliament".

With wee Fatty Salmond now openly courting these theological throwbacks this is a warning of dark times ahead for the future of both women and the gay community in Scotland.
29

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:41:39
Monkey Man,

Who warned us?

What's a theological throwback?

30

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19/07/2008 01:43:56
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19/07/2008 01:45:28
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monkey man,

19/07/2008 01:47:21
# 46

Who warned us.? Every nation from history where extremist right-wing Roman Catholicism has been forced on populations, fascist Spain and Italy as classic examples.

Definition of a theologial throwback.? Those attempting to introduce bigotry and sectarianism into this election.
33

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19/07/2008 01:48:54
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34

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:49:38
#49

Dear, dear. Someoone else who needs to calm down.

35

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19/07/2008 01:51:29
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36

BIG EYE,

Paisley 19/07/2008 01:51:42
I am not a catholic but I am a christian and I abhor what the Abortion Act has led to.

As a christian I could not vote for any candidate who supports this act.
37

monkey man,

19/07/2008 01:51:59
# 51 Wee Hugh

Its only you telling everyone to calm down for some strange reason. Everyone else is mellowed out, maaaaaaan.! lol
38

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:53:23
#54

Aye right!
39

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19/07/2008 01:53:47
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40

monkey man,

19/07/2008 01:56:31
# 55 Wee Hugh

Take a chill pill, ma man.! As they say in the fashionable salons these days. lol
41

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 01:58:17
# Monkey

I am so chilled I am now going to bed. No doubt we will meet again in this space.

Be good.
42

monkey man,

19/07/2008 01:59:38
# 58 Wee Hugh

Don't have nightmares, wee man.! lol
43

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/07/2008 02:02:15

Good on you Ms Curran!

The 'Laughing Hyenas' that wanted this 'act' to go through, have NO idea, NO idea atall!
44

clochoderic,

renfrewshire 19/07/2008 03:28:14
Ms. Curran`s quickfire staccatto of soundbites and oppositionist posturing is laughable.
The lady is a careerist New Labour drone incapable of telling the truth.
Labour are in big trouble here ...
45

LEAL,

19/07/2008 07:12:12
Mrs Curran says she respects the various churches morals and ethics.I dont think anyone should listen to her opinions on morals and ethics when she is a proven liar.
Reekie Drawers Curran just cant help herself.Compulsive.She has about as much grasp of the truth as the Disgraced Alexander(wendy).
46

Scunner,

Ellon 19/07/2008 07:14:28
Abortion is murder in my opinion. My partner had her 12 week scan recently and it was amazing to see the baby moving. How can someone kill their own flesh and blood?....crazy.
47

C. RAB.BIT,

FIFE 19/07/2008 07:47:18
DID SOMEONE SAY "MORE ANTI FAMILY ---- IN LIVING MEMORY"
SHORT MEMORY WHEN IT SUITS. MY MOTHER HAS A LIVING MEMORY
AND CAN REMEMBER HITLER AND HIS GOVERNMENT,AND IF YOU LISTEN CAREFULLY YOU CAN STILL HEAR THE ECHO OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH RUSHING TO THE AID OF THE CONCENTRATION CAMP VICTIMS,OR IT MAY BE INQUISITION VICTIMS,OR THE POPE APOLOGIZING FOR PRIESTS SEXUALLY ABUSING CHILDREN.THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GIVING RELIGION A BAD NAME
48

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 19/07/2008 07:48:49
Nice coming from a Church with a past,recent history off sexual intimidation and abuse against young women entering the "NUNNERY" when pledging to help the poor, ignorant and illiterate.
NEVER forgetting the catalogue off sexual abuse world wide of many off their clergy on innocent children.
What loving and caring people to have the gall too preach morality to the masses!
49

The Tin Man,

19/07/2008 07:49:23
Advanced scientific research is a subject that is crucial to the inhabitants of Easterhouse.
50

gerry2,

19/07/2008 07:53:26
#8 Darien.In the light of your post I don't think you're particularly well placed to comment on others intellectual deficiencies.

Re the question of Abortion and embryology being relevant to political debate,only an idiot would have an ambivalent attitude towards these issues.Of course it's highly important.The Church is not ramming views down anyones throat.It has a right to free speech like everyone else.These issues have been the subject of considerable political debate for many years.No one has denied the importance and validity of such debate.But when the Catholic Church opens its mouth suddenly the debate is no longer valid.So typical of the best small bigotted country in the world.
51

eric,

lothian 19/07/2008 08:16:56
This is the same cardinal who had a pacmaker fitted tut tut!Glass houses and all that.
52

eric,

19/07/2008 08:25:01
Be interesting to see curran explain leaked documents about Paying private firms BOUNTY to take every jobseeker for 2 yrs then after that they will attend jobcentre every day to sign for workfare placements.Talk about Alienating yourself!.
53

Gdgy,

dundy 19/07/2008 08:31:21
I am amazed by the SNpites veherment slagging off of the intellectual ability of the electorate in Glasgow East...they consistently slagg them of for so dense as to vote Labour.....shouldn't they be trying to get them to change their minds????
This wholescale smearing of the electorate suggests that the SNPites have given up....they know they have offered noting new to the people of Glasgow East and their 10 watt candidate (who has the charisma and demeanour of a man who has lost a fiver)has impressed no one....not even the most fervent SNPite...
54

Richardinho,

19/07/2008 08:44:26
If folk in Glasgow East vote according to their consciences, that's a lot better than voting for a party 'because my grandfather did'.
55

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 19/07/2008 08:50:10
AM2: What you’re saying the SNP are saying they can put money in the pockets of the people as apposed to Tony B.Lair telling us that the SNP government would cost each family in Scotland 5000 pounds a year!
Hmm….now who should I believe?

So do you still think we should all vote Tory?
56

Nikostratos,

19/07/2008 09:02:46
#26

How to Get Made and M.P...........snp style

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRrotten.JPG
57

Nikostratos,

19/07/2008 09:04:59
#75

That depends on whether they are willing to pay £50 for your vote.as the snp would(and do) say
58

chico y,

Alba 19/07/2008 09:13:11
Curran and her liebour colleagues would use the £50 for their own expenses.
We're not hearing much about the outgoing MP's expenses, should the authorities not be looking in this.
59

lulach mac gille coemgain,

19/07/2008 09:20:40
God will sort it all out - you can see the worlds no’ in a mess cause he watches over us !
60

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 09:22:50
#67 gerry2
It isn't "the Catholic Church" that has an opinion, it's the MEN who are running it. Of course everyone is entitled to their personal opinion on any subject at all, really (yes, even all of those misogynistic cardinals) but I don't remember voting for any of those priests who are trying to influence public opinion.
61

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 19/07/2008 09:26:32
I do not agree with the catholic church on this issue.

If they encourage people to think more about who they vote for in Glasgow East rather than just voting labour then it will be a good thing for the people of that area.

Labour has failed Scotland and Glasgow in particular. You do not need AM2 statistics and surveys to know that Glasgow has been failed.

All you need are a pair of eyes. Hopefully Glasgow is starting to awaken.

62

Ned,

Morningside 19/07/2008 09:27:42
#35.
Sir ( or Madam ).

If you represent a SNP view then I can only hope that the Haggis party NEVER get independence.

People are going to differ in this very imortant subject but surely we can keep the low and vulgar attitudes out of this.

I dont live in the Glasgow East electorate bit if I did I would vote for Davina.

Also when I vote again it will not be for Labour or SNP.

This is my democratic right but I dont really think you understand democracy ( unlike AM2 ).
63

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 09:27:44
77 Nikostratos.

It is far better then Labour, who take all your money then kick you where it hurts when times get tough.
64

mr angry,

ayrshire 19/07/2008 09:28:30
Numpty Heid, you are well named. We live in a democracy and people with religious views get the same vote as you do, ergo , if more than 50% vote for something then it is acceptable.
You are entitled to have your view but I fail to see why you expect that anybody that has religious views should not also have the same rights.
Think you need to get a grip and control the paranoia.
65

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 09:40:57
26. AM2

you are spinning like a top, and a ridiculous one at that.

You defend time and again Labour's "£5000 SNP tax bill, how will your family cope" slogan, which was used in broadcasts without any context other than a vote for the SNP will cost you £5000, which was palpably and plainly false, and now you take umbrage at the SNP stating a fact that the treasury are receiving £6.5 billion in oil revenues this year.
66

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 09:43:46
77. Niko

yet more desperate Unionist spin and panic.

The SNP have never bought a vote or offered to pay for one.

The Labour party have however admitted 120 counts of law breaking relating to election finance, have a former cabinet minister currently facing criminal investigation, had their Scottish leader resign over illegal donations, and Labour party election fraud has been described by a judge as "disgraceful for even a banana republic".
67

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 09:56:05
87 Pink Sombrero.

When a Political Party reduces taxes or similar things then that is almost like saying voting for me saves you a hundred quid per year.
68

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 19/07/2008 09:58:22
8 darien Panama
wow - get a bit closer to Scotland and have a laugh a day at Chubby Cheeks and his Numpty party antics and you would not be making these comments. I say laugh but seriously this sad party is taking only easy options and ignoring real issues yet all the while dreaming about oil and gas that does not belong to Scotland. We are doomed I tell you!!
69

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 10:03:33
88. Thomas

possibly - the SNP could justifiably claim that freezing the council tax and lowering prescription charges is saving people money, or that Labour abolishing the 10p tax band or increasing vehicle duty is costing people money, but I think Niko was suggesting the SNP were trying to "buy" votes. As Niko is 94 years old and often a tad confused, we will maybe put it down to discombobulation on his part.

70

Media 1,

cape town 19/07/2008 10:06:32
Here is the thing! The church know that there is no god, they are not that daft. But they survive on the basis that many people around the world still believe there is a god, so whilst they can they will fight any technology that takes us closer to that " I will create life in the image of myself" Moment.
In the not to distant future, eartlings will clone human life and leave them there to work the cosmic colonies, from time to time we will fly in and check up on these clones who will in turn view us as gods. And one day we will leave that colony having exhausted our requirements and leave the clones to fend for themselves. The clones will probably wrtie books about us and will probably end up with a governing body who represents the gods who used to fly their chariots in the sky. At some point for reasons of power they will probably move toward a monothesitic approach and then they will spend their lives protecting that power.
Deep within their ranks they will do what they can to protect the lie until one day that society get to the point where they can also design life, and so it will begin again.
The church can do what they want, but they can never stop the move toward human clones, cyborgs and holograms. It will happen and then thankfully the god fantasy will be done with.
71

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 19/07/2008 10:08:33
#84
I partly share your views that EVERYONE residing in a "genuine democracy" should by RIGHT - enjoy the freedom to express and support whatever they think is right and proper for them.
They also should have the basic human rights to also decide what are the appropriate moral standards they and their families - if any - should abide by.
In my humble opinion, the moralist in question - should keep his preaching to his church and leave politics for his flock to decide what is going to be good or bad for them.
Religion has been the most ancient off all methods of control to be used the by the Establishment to strike fear and terror into the masses. HELL for you; HEAVEN and PARADISE for the exploiters!
It certainly should be TOTALLy banned from all state educational properties and if parents wish their children to have a religious education they shoud take them to their appropriate church.
After all said and done; you wouldn't go to purchase a joint of beef to a Chemist or an Ironmongery shop!
Or Would you?
72

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 10:09:20
91 Media 1,cape town

Idiot.

73

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:19:10
#86 Pink Sombrero

Labour's £5000 estimate was based on two unlikely assumptions:

1. independence (as indicated by the slogan "Break up Britain, end up Broke)
2. that the SNP would keep their election pledges.

As far as I can see, there is no such context on the SNP's leaflet.
74

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:21:08
More SNP election leaflet problems. From Tom Harris' blog:

"Kenny MacAskill really ought to know better. His party has had to issue a humiliating apology after putting two Central Scotland Police officers on one of their leaflets in the Glasgow East campaign. Electoral rules explicitly forbid the use of officers on party election literature if they can be identified."

http://tomcharris.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/against-the-law-and-out-of-order/
75

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 10:25:13
94. AM2

there was no such context in Labour's party politica broadcast - it stated "a vote for the SNP will mean a £5000 tax bill".

95. AM2

at least the people pictured are actually policemen, and they were happy to be pictured with Mr MacAskill at the time the picture was taken, however clearly the picture should not have been re-used without permission. This does compares with Labour's 93 year old war veteran who was actually a 67 year old Labour activist.
76

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 10:26:00
#94

If Labour are allowed to assume Independence would cost each family £5000 then the SNP are able to assume that each family in Glasgow East could receive roughly £50 from the oil windfall.

"2. that the SNP would keep their election pledges."

Quite difficult since 500 million was spent on the Trams that the SNP were against.
77

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 10:29:29
Good to see Gordon Brown can make it to a 10 course dinner in Japan, and now to Baghdad East, but won't be bothering to visit to Glasgow east.
78

Nikostratos,

19/07/2008 10:36:19
#90 pinky Ooer!(You wanna come down the gym and see who is old)

£48 extra
per household
isnt it time you got your share of Scotland's windfall

SNP on your side

seems straightforward to me vote snp and get £48 anyway of to Rome be back 25th July when the result of the by election will be known.


And given Alex and Mr mason rhetoric i expect the snp to win...If they don't?

cheerybye for now
79

European Scot,

19/07/2008 10:36:35
95 AM2

You feel moved to make comment on Police officers being used in a pamphlet, but did you not feel the need to comment on the lying propaganda of Ms. Curran's photo opportunity with a' War veteran', who was barely a wee bairn at that time.
Doubtless that would have been interpreted as 'a mistake'.
80

brownlie,

19/07/2008 10:37:57
95 AM2

Who is Tom Harris? Is he a Labour MP for Glasgow Southside? Is that where Margaret Curran has lived for the past 19 years?
81

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:54:32
#96 Pink Sombrero

Think again.

Here's the PPB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhNAg9EYmcU
The phrase "break up of Britain" appears at 1:47. Note also "SNP's plans" at 0:17. Those clearly include independence.

And here's the billboard: http://tinyurl.com/2sohqe
82

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:56:52
#96 Pink Sombrero

Was the McGuinness/Hipson swap a breach of electoral rules?

Yes or no will suffice.
83

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:57:41
#100 European Scot

If it was "lying propaganda" what was to be gained?
84

Media 1,

cape town 19/07/2008 10:58:57
Thomas P

If I am an idiot then you are suggesting that the following is impossible.

Thomas P is saying that;

1. Travelling at the speed of light will NEVER happen.
2. The cloning of human beings is impossible
3. Earthlings will NEVER find other planets AND if they did would never be able to clone human life.

Thomas, I accept that your mind is not as free as mine. I accept that I have had better opportunities in life, but that does not excuse your ignorance.

Ask yourself some questions.

1. Is it possible that humans may be able to clone human life?
2. Is it possible that we may travel at the speed of light?
3. Is it possible we may find an uninhabited planet out there somewhere?
4. When we find that planet, is it possible we may clone human life in the image of ourselves?

Dont be afraid, your mind is yours to use as you wish, thus anyone who tells you it should have boundaries is afraid that you may encounter the truth.
Live your life, your not dead yet!
85

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 10:59:12
#97 ThomasP

The SNP executive’s total liability for the Edinburgh tram system is £490m. Although somewhat front-loaded, that’s an average of £123m/year from 2007-11.

The additional cash-generating efficiencies which John Swinney announced in his November budget should generate £400m over the next three years. That’s an average of £133m/year – more than enough to cover the unplanned £123m/year expense and obviate the need to break any manifesto pledges.

Yet still the SNP cyber-activists cite the tram system to try and excuse all the broken pledges. They must think the Scottish public are complete idiots.
86

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/07/2008 10:59:15
#26 & 94 AM2

Wait till you see the new Leaflet. "Labour Scrapping Incapacity Benefit and Forcing All into Unpaid Work."

That might shake a few of the complacent sheep.
87

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/07/2008 10:59:25
#26 & 94 AM2

Wait till you see the new Leaflet. "Labour Scrapping Incapacity Benefit and Forcing All into Unpaid Work."

That might shake a few of the complacent sheep.
88

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 11:00:25
#108 KampungHighlander

I wouldn't put it past them.
89

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 11:02:33
#82 Ned

Thank you for that. It would of course be a wasted vote in that constituency, but I have been most impressed by the Lib Dem candidate.
90

GM,

19/07/2008 11:05:21
@109

on another thread AM2 you post comments about 'cybernats' flooding forums such as these, but at 26 you yourself have repeated some information that it seems you are intent on getting into every political story on today's paper?

Hypocrisy?
91

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/07/2008 11:09:41
#109

Of course they will, its true!
92

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 11:13:17
#111 GM

I made no such complaint. I referred only to nationalists seeking to "dominate radio phone-ins and are bombarding organisations like the BBC with vexatious complaints of bias and the like".

Now, peckish. Brunchtime.
93

gerry2,

19/07/2008 11:14:24
#68 Eric.Pretty sure that no human/animal hybrids were involved in the creation of a pace maker!!

94

GM,

19/07/2008 11:16:01
@113

oh how you spin -

You didn't make the complaint directly.
It was made in post 9 on the thread we are referring to.

You then replied to post 9 and your opening word?
'True' which clearly implies you believe everything that poster stated was true and you agreed with it...


Here is post 9 -
"This is all part of the SNP's former letter-writing campaign. Now a handful of Nats post to newspaper boards but use many ID's often agreeing with themselves. They have taken over some newspaper boards such as the Herald where they attempt to dominate every single conversation even when it's got nothing to do with the Nats or even politics."


Your response?
"True."
95

,

19/07/2008 11:17:26
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96

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 11:21:44
102. AM2

more spin, which proves my point. The PPB says "SNP plans will mean £5000 tax bill" - there is no context relating this to independence (break up britain does appear, but not linked to the £5000 tax bill) - but you are happy to defend this, but think the SNP £48 per week is suspect. Jusst demonstrates your knee jerk bias and propagandising agenda.
97

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 11:22:35
103. WHat is this McGuinness/Hipson swap?
98

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 11:24:52
113. AM2

indeed, can you prove that "Nats bombard the BBC with vexatious complaints" - seems like more spin and propaganda from you.

How odd, given that last week Labour complained about BBC bias, that you then post about the SNP complaining.... its almost as if you take a fact (Labour complain about BBC bias) - invert it (SNP complain complain about BBC), twist it (Nats organise campaign of complaint) and spin it into your usual anti-SNP bile.
99

Iain's,

Barcelona 19/07/2008 11:25:05
I don't get it. How can a 'good' Roman Catholic vote for New Labour with policies like this?

How can Ruth Kelly, be both a government minister and a member of Opus Dei with policies like this?

Is voting New Labour a 'Mortal sin', and if not, why, not?

Is it a case of " give unto Gordon, that which is Gordon's?
100

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 11:26:41
26 AM2,Scotland,UK
As opposed to £50bn of UK borrowing split between us?
101

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 11:34:44
113 AM2,Scotland,
Pot, kettle, black...
Perhaps the Scottish Unionist is used to for so long following the London party line, just holding their ankles and taking it, that the idea of speaking up for Scotland is anathema?
102

Ned,

Morningside 19/07/2008 11:37:54
#110.
Tks for comment.
Still think Davina could cause a surprise, but have been wrong before ( in fact lots of times. ).

Good luck with your epic battle against the dark forces.
103

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 11:42:22
106 AM2
The Scottish Public must be complete idiots, or simply too trusting, how else would you explain them being sold down the river time after time for fifty years and still returning a majority of Labour MPs?
104

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 11:43:41
124 Buckpool Loon,
If Maggie told me I was on fire I'd ask for a second oppinion.
105

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 11:52:26
Media 1,

What a nice faith you have. Is it in the future of humanity or are you by any chance a Scientologist?
106

FS,

Stirling 19/07/2008 11:56:39
Wow, the anti-religious posts are, once again, surprisingly unoriginal. If you don't want to live in a (yes, so-called) democracy and put up with other views different to your own then perhaps move to China or North Korea. Till then the voters of Glasgow East will vote on whatever issues they choose to.
107

scottish person,

paisley 19/07/2008 11:59:38
Catholic church aside, anyone serious person who votes labour on Thursday, either cant read or has no f***in clue about what is going on.
108

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 12:01:29
#103 Media 1,cape town

You are an idiot because the people of the world have the right to follow a religion if they choose.

It is not for you to dictate what is true in the world or not.

#104

It does not justify why the other Parties should spend money while the SNP should be using that money to complete their manifesto promises.
109

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 12:03:17
#126 FS
I think the voters of Glasgow East SHOULD vote for whatever they wish. They should consider their options, decide what is best for them and (after considering everything) vote for whoever they choose. It has absolutely nothing to do with what some religious guy decides on their behalf.
110

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 12:06:31
Numpty,

You went to bed and so might not have seen this post this morning:

It's not about religion it's about who we are as human persons. You're view is different from that of mine.

Your assertions are not part of rational debate, they are deeply felt and so emotive statements. Your motivation for such emotive assertions is not clear, one inference is bigotry, another perhaps that you or a loved one suffers from some tragic illness.

As I asked earlier, what is your problem? It's obviously got you all worked up.
111

Jack fae Glasgow,

Glasgow 19/07/2008 12:10:25
Time for a new socialist party that does not trod on the rights and humanity of the poor, the dispossessed, the sick and the weak. Time for a party that pursues the rich, the mighty boards of commerce and finance, to pay their rightful and reasonable whack to the treasury. No get outs, no bail-outs, no fancy accounting mechanisms at all, no more rip offs!. Anyone up for it?
112

Jimmy the Pie,

19/07/2008 12:13:41
#125 Livilion

Not for much longer now.
113

Tris,

19/07/2008 12:43:10


Do you think that this issue may lose the election for Curran?
114

Arthur G,

Glasgow 19/07/2008 12:48:11

#93 AM2

"More SNP election leaflet problems. From Tom Harris' blog:

"Kenny MacAskill really ought to know better. His party has had to issue a humiliating apology after putting two Central Scotland Police officers on one of their leaflets in the Glasgow East campaign. Electoral rules explicitly forbid the use of officers on party election literature if they can be identified..."

I have met Tom Harris on numerous occasions including the day of his election. IMO, he is one of the least imposing politicians I have ever met and one of the least able. I wonder who is writing his blog for him (despite not being a party member I was asked to contribute to one of his election blurbs)?

It is rather rich of Mr Harris to carp upon the inaccuracies of the election leaflets of political opponents, considering his own record in that department but that, as they say, is for another day…
115

Arthur G,

Glasgow 19/07/2008 12:49:14
#65 gerry2
"But when the Catholic Church opens its mouth suddenly the debate is no longer valid.So typical of the best small bigotted country in the world..."

Your soul contribution to this debate would seem to be that of accusing everyone in Scotland who does not share the views of a couple of RC cardinals of being 'bigoted' (note spelling). To try to reduce this extremely serious issue to level of hackneyed old 'sectarianism' (very low down in the real list of Scotland's social problems) is disingenuous.
116

monkey man,

19/07/2008 13:17:47
# 65 Gerry

The RC Church has no mandate to speak on matters of "morality" considering its infamous history. It is also now playing the sectarian card against its once old friend and ally Scottish Labour in this election.
117

Regret,

19/07/2008 13:26:42
Has anybody who has blogged today read the entire Embryology Bill?

Cardinal Keith O'Brien must have to describe it as "monstrous". Believe me, he is right. No cures have ever been made from embryonic research. Who ever thought about combining animal with human anyway? Don't you think it's really sick? But here we are with some so-called intelligent beings wanting to do really twisted things. They aren't telling you, but there is hesitation and worry that new strains of diseases may be made through these cross breeding cells if implanted could end mankind. But the scientific community won't take the blame, they will say that this is what the public wanted, after all they gave us permission by passing the Embryology Bill into law. How much will all of this research costs and where will the money come from? Wouldn't you like to have your money used with better common sense?

#61 Is truly with the right idea and is a fine human.

But we also have sick humans who want to impose death upon others. Over the last so many years there has been a great push to impose death over certain people - we are in what is called the culture of death. Will you allow yourself to be sucked into the deception of thinking imposed death is good for society?

This issue is not about catholics, it's about the desire to have the power to kill humans, it's about the power to create mutated cross breed animal/humans embryos.

Voters do not be deceived about what the issue is really about. Good luck.

118

monkey man,

19/07/2008 13:36:31
# 138


The RC Church can't hypocritically pick and choose which aspects of advanced medical technology it likes or doesn't like. Was it Senor Conti or Mr O'Brien who recently had a pacemaker or defribilator fitted.? I didn't hear him saying he didn't want the medical procedure and that it should be left to Natural Law or God's Will whether he lived or died.

Complete frauds.
119

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 19/07/2008 13:48:40
The catholic church and scientific progress have always been at odds.

Often the church has been wrong and humanity benefits.

Life #139 Monkey man states. If they felt so much that God was looking after them they would not be using pacemakers.

The church is an institution based on lies. God ??? Virgin Births ?? Holy spirits ?? Miracles ?? Angels ?? Heaven ?? Life Eternal ??

Get a flaming grip. It is nonsense. All of it.
120

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 19/07/2008 14:07:22
If the bish can get his vote out, that evil woman in the gawd awful red jumper is done like a dinner. Couldn't happen to a nicer obnoxious loud mouth.
The Church of Rome is a wonderful, democratic institution. Err...sort of.
121

Reiver,

Galashiels 19/07/2008 14:11:39
We live in a secular society and should cease all State funding of religious groups and goals.

It's hard enough to support the various layers of Government in the UK on our growing tax base without all of these other expensive and wholly unnecessary costs to hard working, taxpayers.

Continue their funding and comments and interference like this from christian, muslim and jewish groups will grow louder and louder.

I'm all for a social net for the needy and the vulnerable but lets face it, religious groups of all persuasions have sufficient funding or assets to fund their needs and they ardently hoard this while depleting the public purse - there comes a time when we need to stand above the grimy patronage of the liberal (religious?) left and keep taxpayers money for the secular State's requirements.
122

,

19/07/2008 14:17:10
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123

sciura grigia,

Livingston 19/07/2008 14:18:27
Poor mr Mason SNP - I hope the "extreme discomfort" he feels re embryo research is not as bad as that felt by sufferers of the dreadful wasting diseases which said research aims to combat.........
124

,

19/07/2008 14:21:09
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125

Scottish 'N British,

19/07/2008 14:35:03

So, to summarise the respective stances on i) abortion and ii) embryology

Mt Curran: Supports i) and ii)
Robertson: Supports i) and ii)
DavRankin: Supports i) and ii)

Mason: No sure really, plans to wait until he's listened to all views before voting. Mmmm. How long has this guy been in politics? Wouldn't you think been around long enough to have formed an opinion, one way or other, by now?

Suspect Wee Eck (or the SNP spin doctors), with one eye on the by-election, is/are behind this dithering.

126

psycho,

edinbra 19/07/2008 14:36:21
All those who state so emphatically that there is no God do so in such a strident and derogatory way that they convey the impression that they are having to convince themselves all the time about their state of non belief.
I am a believer and a scientist and I attend church on a regular basis -I am relaxed about that and I am relaxed about people who are non believers.
127

Longdirk Maceth,

nz 19/07/2008 14:39:24
The UK government has known for more than 30 years that Scotland does support itself financially. For example, Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, advised the UK government in 1975 of the truth about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. His report advised the UK government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. It was promptly classified "Secret" and suppressed. It came to light only in 2005, when the UK government was forced by law to release it. The UK government’s ‘Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (GERS) report provides another example of the UK government’s duplicity. This was finally exposed by forensic accountant Niall Aslen's analysis of the 2005 GERS report. The analysis (available at http://tinyurl.com/y p7osx) was based entirely on the UK government’s own figures, with one exception for which UK government figures were not available. Mr Aslen documented the sources of all the figures. Mr Aslen's analysis exposed the UK government’s egregious misallocation – to Scotland’s serious disadvantage – of revenues (not just oil revenues) and costs. If a private firm cooked its books half as seriously as the UK government's GERS report, its directors would be in jail. Mr Aslen's analysis convincingly demolished the assertions that Scotland was being subsidised by the rest of the UK. But the British press ignored or suppressed it. Luckily, enough people saw it on the internet before the 2007 election to discredit Labour’s claims that Scotland was running a £11.2-billion deficit. Mr Aslen’s analysis showed that Scotland actually had a £9.6-billion surplus.


128

monkey man,

19/07/2008 14:41:14
# 150

I love those furious rants form the wee Bravehearts.! lol
129

Scottish 'N British,

19/07/2008 15:01:44
151

Moi aussi.
130

LEAL,

19/07/2008 15:08:10
150

It is very sad that we live in a country where many of our fellow citizens still deny the obvious fact that a resource rich country such as Scotland will always do better if it uses its resources for its own good,rather than having them taken by another.
131

,

19/07/2008 15:13:22
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132

Regret,

19/07/2008 15:23:19
Monkey man: a pacemaker or defibrillator is on the same order as a hearing aid. We should all try to live longer and healthier but not at another's expense (as in stealing their living organs as they are being harvested, helpless and paralyzed on drugs; or by being cannibals by having other people's body parts implanted into ourselves).

The entire problem is that most people are uneducated to the processes of these scientific experiments etc.. on living human beings - including what will happen to those living cell of the lab created beings. As Franklinstein procedures occur, the money is sucked up from the people and who will prosper? The pharmaceuticals, scientists, and doctors who know what stocks to invest in and later get out of - all at the expense of the little people. Fads fade, then new schemes are sought, people must believe that it took so much work to produce the pill that they take for the price that it costs. They are in the money making business and you are only a consumer but of what? Are you happy with how your drugs work? Are you happy with the costs of them?
133

,

19/07/2008 15:25:16
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134

The Tin Man,

19/07/2008 15:27:08
#150

Vote SNP and make paragraphs illegal.
135

Scottish 'N British,

19/07/2008 15:36:22
154

Just look at Salmond's first 14 months in office.


1. Promise to scrap student debt

2. Promise to lower class sizes in primaries 1-3 to a maximum of 18

3. Promise to match "brick for brick" previous Executive's house building programme

4. Promise to recruit 1,000 extra/new cops

5. Promise to give £2,000 to first time housebuyers

6. Promise to cut bureaucracy - exspecially the nummber of quangos


etc, etc


People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
136

Doggin'it1707,

19/07/2008 15:39:37
158 British N' a Scottish traitor

Wrong, how can you be so dawg gone wrong?

Here is Salmonds fisrt 14 months THE TRUTH. The SNP are correct.

1. Biggest promise on student debt. Don't see any unionists making these promises.

2. Boldest promise on class sizes, rather than unioniust negativity.

3. 1000 new policwe delivered.



Doggin 1707 back the future y'all

Liebore are wrong, the SNP are good.
137

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

19/07/2008 15:45:26
#159

You are right. The quisling at 158 is actually lying. But no surprises there since it seems that policy No.1 in the Labour Party handbook is to"master the art of telling lies". Witness Curran, Baron von for-Foulkes-sake etc.
138

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 19/07/2008 15:47:04
re #147 Red Etin

I did not think I posted anything that would give the impression I believed in god. I believe in no god, heaven, afterlife, etc, etc.

I believe in people being good to one another and stop the killing for which particular flavour of imaginery best friend a bishop, iman, minister happen to have.

139

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 15:51:01
#159 Doggin'it1707
Before I answer this let me make something clear; I don't like ANY of the politicians, OK?
1. Promising things to the students doesn't actually make it so.
2. Class sizes have not been reduced.
3. They definitely have not increased Police numbers by 1000.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with the topic here.
140

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 19/07/2008 15:51:07
Monkey Man,

You are just one of many of Scotlands sons who have been blinded by the religious intollerance of the central belt. I bet you tick all the boxes of a loyal protestant rangers supporting weegie.

Not that I have a problem with any of those things. I just wish that more of them could see independence for Scotland is not a matter of unionist or papist.
141

Hen Broons wee Ma.,

It's rostin so it is 19/07/2008 15:55:56
http://tinyurl.com/6cuaow

Labour will lose the Glasgow East by-election, according to a majority of ePolitix.com subscribers.

A survey conducted this week showed that 51.9 per cent of respondents believe that the SNP will win next Thursday's poll.

In contrast just 42.6 per cent felt that Labour will defend the seat it won with a majority of more than 13,000 as recently as 2005.

In other findings from the poll a majority also agreed that the imminent summer parliamentary recess, seen by some as chance for Labour to steady its precarious position, will make no difference to the government's standing.

Only 21.8 per cent claimed that the break would benefit Gordon Brown's administration, while a similar number believed it would damage the government.

Meanwhile a near majority, 48.8 per cent, thought that the prime minister would reshuffle his cabinet in September in a bid to restore momentum.

Just 5.7 per cent felt that Brown would shake up his team before the recess begins on Tuesday, while 29.2 per cent thought he would do so later this year and 9.1 per cent said he would not do so at all in 2008.

The online survey of 506 ePolitix.com readers was conducted from 16-17 July 2008. For more information, please contact Dods Polling on dodspolling@dods.co.uk.

142

,

19/07/2008 16:13:50
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143

gerry2,

19/07/2008 16:14:44
#136 Note the spelling of "Sole"
144

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 16:17:15
#145

I see Numpty Heid is dying again. You should use your time more fruitfully than ranting in this forum. Get out, get a life!
145

,

19/07/2008 16:21:24
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146

Sanny,

Portugal 19/07/2008 16:36:59
This little treasure was emailed to me this week. If, as I suspect, it is true then it is a tale of horrific proportion.

Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 600 employees and has the following employee statistics?

29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year

Which organisation is this?

It's the 635 members of the House of Commons, the same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.

What a bunch of b*****ds we have running our country - it says it all.

And just to top all that they probably have the best 'corporate' pension scheme in the country!!

Today we require - quite rightly – guarantees about people working with children and the vulnerable. Would readers agree that we also need to know a great deal more about those that would seek to represent us in the government of our country?

Is there anyone able to apply names to the miscreants in each category?

I think there is more to worry us here that any advice given by a man wearing a frock.
147

Jimmy the Pie,

19/07/2008 16:38:09
Any further updates on New Labour Sleaze and Corruption's retired serial swindler David Marshall???

Remember the words from Faither Cairns

"I would ask the media to give David (Marshall) and his family some privacy as he is suffering ill health"


Aye right - Maybe repetitive strain injury from continually counting his ill gotten gains???
148

Jimmy the Pie,

19/07/2008 16:42:06
Are there any programmes on tele tomorrow featuring Maggie Curran's pet lapdog Glenn Campbell????

He must be due another personal attack on John Mason - its been 2 days since his last one.

On the 'main story' on last weeks Politics Show have there been any more threats of legal action by that dipstick Mike Dailly???
Or has that 'story' been quietly forgotten???

What will Campbell do when New Labour Sleaze get a right rogering in 20 months time. Who will he crawl to then????
149

Sanny,

Portugal 19/07/2008 16:46:57
167 Brandain
May I remind you sir that “Scottish Home Rule” was a founding principle of the Scottish Labour Party. It was dropped by the Welshman, Kinnock, in the mid-fifties.

All that is required to restore Labour in Scotland is that they return to their roots and embrace policies such as those put forward by Maxton. A man much revered by Brown in his student days, but whose principles he rejects today.


150

,

19/07/2008 16:48:53
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151

MichScot,

USA 19/07/2008 16:50:16
Embryos are people.
Where would you be without yours? In a test tube? Being dissected?

And why not use the other available stem sells, such as the ones found in placentas and umbilical cords? They say that the results with these are just as good, if not better.

Then everyone would be happy.
152

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 16:52:34
Typical modern liberal - no sense of humour. You're the one bleating about being told to go away and die!
153

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 16:59:25
Why should we play about with human life at its origin simply because you need a cure? Why not just bring babies to birth and harvest them for organs?
154

Sanny,

Upwey 19/07/2008 17:17:23
If the Church of any and all persuasions believes that research into the working of the body are wrong, then they are entitled to that view. However the view must be consistent, all such research must be wrong, like one can’t be slightly pregnant! Either they support such research and accept the benefits or they reject is and refuse its benefits. But they cannot and must not prevent those who do not share their belief from carrying out such research and benefiting from any advances made.

The Jehovah Witness view that their interpretation of the bible does not allow them to have blood, is one they adhere to and I support their stance, even if I think it to be stupid in the extreme it is nonetheless their right.

Virtually all medical research causes a small amount of harm but this is outweighed by the greater good. This said, a look through the last 2000 years of history will show how the church and particularly the Catholic Church has opposed almost all research and yet when faced by the results, has finally accepted them. Let us be thankful that today they no longer, as they once did, burn Mathematicians, Astronomers and other scientists as heretics.


155

Finnz,

Aberdeen 19/07/2008 17:23:17
This religeous interference says it all really about what other agencies think about the mental capabilities of the voters in this constituency. It is also confirmation that despite 50? years of Labour representation, its still one of the most run down and depraved areas in the country. Their continuing support for the Labour Party is the clearest indication that the average brain cell count is about 6.
156

Barry Donald Scarfe,

Brentwood 19/07/2008 17:36:36
Re 61. You are totally correct. I am not a Catholic nor am I particularly religious but I am totally against abortion except in some strictly-limited circumstances such as if the life of the mother was at risk ect.
157

Sanny,

Portugal 19/07/2008 17:39:07
176 Brandain
As I said, it was in an email I received recently and therefore I cannot verify its accuracy. That said and given the performance of our MP’s of both Houses in milking their expenses and demands for ridiculous salary increases - tends to give the claim validity.

Perhaps for all elections to public office the candidate should provide and publish a full CV; verified by the appropriate authority, giving full details of errors such as those described in my previous post and any other information that might be of concern to the Electorate. Our representatives’ must ‘like Caesars Wife, be above suspicion’.

As a young Engineer in the late 50’s I had to submit to a detailed examination of my background and political affiliations before I was accepted for a position in the UKAEA. Politicians are in a far more sensitive position than I was; so why should they not be scrutinised?

158

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 17:39:13
So many posts here demonstrate the hostility of many in Scotland towards democracy. Is that not a great shame - and even an embarassment in 2008?

ALL are ENTITLED to hold and express a view in a liberal democracy.

The hostility of so many intolerant seculars here is deeply troubling and if we are to grow as a society then perhaps we need to consider measures to control the hostility of these bigots to ensure that all are able to participate in our democratic process.

159

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 17:40:08
#171 Sanny

It's not true, as you could easily have discovered had you been so inclined.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/congress.asp
160

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 17:45:03
NumptyHeid1952, 175

You are not bound by the beliefs of any particular individual here or elsewhere.

You are bound - like all the rest of us - by the democratically dtermined rules of our society.

I preach live and let live. I preach tolerance. I resist the intolerant seculars who object to the rights of many religious people to hold and express their views.
161

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 17:46:21
147 Red Etin,19/07/2008 14:29:09
#140 An Greumach Mor
"often the church has been wrong"

"There is no god or gods, or afterlife, or heaven or hell. If you believe in god(s) you are deluded. The churches and religions are deluding you. No-one has ever seen a spirit or presented any evidence of a spirit life. No two religions can agree the same story, so can any of them be correct? You can free yourself from the "beliefs" that your parents, teachers and meenisters have planted in your brain if you care to think things through logically."


Religion is a business!

They sell you a ticket to Paradise and you must have "faith" in what they say before you can get there.

You have to conform to their dictats and thinking.

There is no evidence of the "afterlife" and as far as I know there has been no documented evidence of the dead returning to tell us all about it.

So, we buy a ticket to Paradise and if it doesn't exist we cannot return to get our money back!

Great wheeze, Great Business Model.
162

European Scot,

19/07/2008 18:06:12
Two people thrash about in the sack, the result is conception, it wasn't planned, hoped for, nor was it expected.
The embryo produced, however, could save human lives.
What do we do in a situation like this, be pragmatic, be practical, or do we resort to superstitious belief ?
If you believe in God, then you must also believe in the gifts that have been bestowed upon mankind.
Intelligence, the power of thought, logic, compassion, and the belief in trying to save human life.
A human life, that was a result of love, a deliberate act of creation, which should be preserved, and cherished, as opposed to the results of a quick thrash between the sheets, which might otherwise be flushed down a drain, as a mistake, as a terrible misjudgement.
We are not perfect, that is what makes us human, but if we can make our mistakes into life savers, doesn't that help us make amends?
Doesn't that at least, help us to maintain our position, a little further up the chain of life ?
If you believe in God, then you know we'll be judged by our actions one day.
If you don't, do you sit idly by, and watch an innocent human being die in agony, when you know you have the ability, and the technology to save them ?
If there is a god, then a human being, positively addressing the latter, could hardly be judged as a criminal, by a super intelligent deity.
163

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:19:35
EuroScot 191:

Whilst you're entitled to your views as expressed in post #191, do you recognise and respect the right of others to hold a different view? And express it freely?
164

,

19/07/2008 18:20:13
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165

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:22:44
Numpty 190

Your post is a disgrace.

Have you ever considered tolerance?

Do you really believe "religious bigots and zealots" want "OTHER people to die because of THEIR religion."?

Dig yourself out of your hatred.
166

European Scot,

19/07/2008 18:24:24
192 True_Democrat

I fully believe in the process of Democracy, and that means you are fully entitled to your views.
The majority view holding sway over both of us.
167

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:27:48
EuroScot, 195

Thank you.

You're entitled to your views.
I'm entitled to my views.
Catholic Cardinals & Bishops are entitled to their views.
All of us are entitled to express them here and elsewhere.
I do wish the intolerant seculars would suppress their attacks on democracy, dont you?
168

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 18:28:35
#186 True_Democrat
Why would you describe a "secular" person as a bigot? Is it just because they don't agree with what "the Church" says, therefor they are wrong to criticise so consequently they must be a bigot?
Is true democracy not the ability to make a free decision, having considered all of the facts and without being unduly influenced by other people? Including religious leaders!
169

,

19/07/2008 18:33:27
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170

European Scot,

19/07/2008 18:37:37
196 True_Democrat

" I do wish the intolerant seculars would suppress their attacks on democracy, dont you? "

If you are referring to certain Unionists, when you state' intolerant seculars', I would tend to agree !
171

Pink Sombrero,

19/07/2008 18:38:10
.
172

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 18:38:58
194 True_Democrat,19/07/2008 18:22:44
Numpty 190

Your post is a disgrace.

Have you ever considered tolerance?

Do you really believe "religious bigots and zealots" want "OTHER people to die because of THEIR religion."?

Dig yourself out of your hatred.

I disagree with what you say regarding Numpty's hatred.

It is not hatred but a cogent point, albeit with the adjustment of one word it would not imply what you perceive to be hatred.

The word is "want" for it too active and I would prefer the following "that they accept other people die for their religion"

I think the hatred and intolerance are not Numpty's
173

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:40:29
JG, 197

I wopuld describe a secular person as a bigot only if he were a bigot.

Disagreement is natural, welcome, and healthy.

In a confident democracy, individuals make their own decisions and vote accordingly.

Should one person be influenced by the stars, another by weeks of careful, considered, precise reading of well informed material, and another influenced by the Church of Green Men wi wee fat hairy legs then that is the nature of democracy.

A very good friend of mine is a tolerant secular. He is an intelligent, precise, well read man who considers electoral matters in his life very seriously. He consults the zodiac. Should we exclude him and his views from our democracy?

Time for all here to embrace tolerance.

The Catholic Cardinals & Bishops are as entitled as anyone here to hold and express theur views on this topic and others.
174

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 18:41:03
True_Democrat
True_Religion
????_????????
175

Regret,

19/07/2008 18:45:14
Number 191, you write:

"Two people thrash about in the sack, the result is conception, it wasn't planned, hoped for, nor was it expected.
The embryo produced, however, could save human lives."

Please tell me how this special embryo can "save human lives".

Organ transplantation propaganda made statements like this - now they include "enhancements" you can now enhance a person's lips or penus etc... with your body's tissues after your dead. Face the facts, it's all about money isn't it?
176

,

19/07/2008 18:46:32
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177

monkey man,

19/07/2008 18:46:53
It is disturbing that the Scottish media gives these religious fundamentalists such prominence to air their bigotry and intolerance.
178

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:47:17
Numpty 202

Then perhaps I should have been more specific.

Quote: "I cannot accept the religious bigots and zealots who want OTHER people to die because of THEIR religion."

You appear to castigate religious men who hold views that differ from yours as bigots and zealots.

And worsde is your suggestion that they WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO DIE beacuse of their religion.

Sir, you are a disgrace.
179

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:48:30
B 206:

There is no mystery or hidden meaning to the terms I chose.

180

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 18:49:07
#203 True_Democrat
I've actually never suggested that anyone should be prevented from holding their own opinion, only that they shouldn't be allowed to use undue influence on other people. There is no problem with someone thinking "see that Cardinal, I agree with everything he says and I'm going to vote for the person closest to his point of view". It's completely different when it's the cardinal saying "you'd better vote for someone who is against abortion & embryo research".
I doubt that your zodiac friend is trying to convert other people to his way of thinking. Or that you will be punished if you don't start consulting your future as forecast by Russell Grant!
181

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:49:30
monkey 207: any concerns about the Press allowing intolerant seculars opportunity to air their hatred?
182

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 18:49:42
177 MichScot,USA

We might debate at what point embryos 'become people' but the research being discussed in this Bill is restricted to pre-embryos, or blastocysts, of less than two weeks which most pro-choice groups and almost all physicians define to be the start of pregnancy.

The clumps of cells being investigated are smaller than a pinhead, have no nervous system and would not register on a pregancy test.

The Bill also specifically prohibits the insertion of this material into a woman and could thus never even become viable, so hysterical newspaper rantings about Frankenstein creations or outpourings from concerned clergy seem to me to be a little misplaced.

I'm sure I recall similar outrage at the idea of transplanting a human heart 'the residence of the human soul' back in the sixties, when Professor Christiaan Barnard anounced he had carried out the procedure, following on from pioneering work in the USA using primate donors.
183

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:51:24
JG 210

Give me an example of a time when the Church issued a "you'd better vote.........."
184

monkey man,

19/07/2008 18:56:03
# 211

I don't see too many "intolerant seculars" being courted by wee Fatty Salmond, do you.?

Also, if the RC Church and its dwindling band of fanatics wish to opt out en masse ( no pun intended)from receiving the most advanced medical treatment that is perfectly acceptable....but they should never be allowed to deny the same to others.
185

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 18:57:05
208 True_Democrat

Jesus(or insert the prophet of your particular faith) said: love thy neighbour.
Religious zealots say: love thy neighbour the way we tell you or we'll kill you, with God's permission.

God preserve us all from that most dangerous of beasts the evagelist who has seen the light and insists on saving our souls even if he has to send us straight to hell to do it.
186

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 18:57:12
#213 True_Democrat
Oh for goodness sake! I've never heard anyone say the first thing I put in inverted commas either - it was meant to convey the spirit of the thing.
187

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 18:59:24
JG 216

Just as my post was meant to expose the stupidity of your point. It disnae happen!!!

So, if we're all happy with the Cardinals holding and expressing views in our confident democracy.....why are the intolerant seculars moaning and whingeing here?
188

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:01:31
livilion, 215

So....religion is not for you? Fine.

Is it OK with you if some others guys in our liberal democracy choose religion and allow it to influence their thinking on electoral matters?

It's kinda how a democracy works.
189

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 19:02:11
#1 Rufus T. Firefly: The can access they same or similaire cells form the plicenta/after brith.

Niether Scotland, Egland, Walse or N.Irealnd have triditions of eating these sort of things, unlike some culture, I belive they are in African or S.American.

Why can't they just ask pregant women to donate the after brith to scince.
190

,

19/07/2008 19:04:15
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191

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:04:57
Blessed be the true intolerant, for they shall create their Kingdom of Heaven, unfortunately here on Earth.
192

Regret,

19/07/2008 19:05:54
So #212 - you know about heart transplants?

The living, breathing heart is beating and it is the clamping and excising or maybe a quick shot is given immediately before excising.

This industry has gone too far. Brain death is only a concept - an idea that they fed society and wanted society to believe in. There is only one true death.

This industry has gone too far. Manipulation in policies, procedures and of course concepts.

Murder.

Does it justify "saving human lives"?

No. The people need to be informed about what is really going on.

193

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:05:58
monkey 214

Salmonds courting habits are of no interest to me.

Catholics of Scotland - individually or collectively - have no power to determine the quality of the medical treatment you can obtain.

Such matters are determined in Westminster through the democratic process.......which Catholics ARE entitled to particpate in.

That's right and proper.....whether the intolerant seculars (aka bigots) like it or not!
194

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:07:59
220: inspired, intellectual guidance as provided by some weird geezers from some rough streets in Basildon, Essex.
195

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 19:08:09
#217 True_Democrat
That's right - WHEN SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU, CALL THEM STUPID!!
And when the church makes decisions on behalf of the people, it's called a theocracy, stupid!
196

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:09:19
221: behaviour breeds behaviour. Let's cultivate tolerance in our society rather than bigotry & badness.
197

jacquesmac,

Lectoure 19/07/2008 19:10:54
True-Democrat

I refer you to post #222, strange company you keep, wot?
198

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:13:20
JG, 225

I used the word appropriately to comment on your post.

Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. Your post was stupid so I said so. Cardinals dont dictate the voting habits of Catholics in Scotland. They research and inform on an objective basis....and that's right and proper. Their "flock" then need make up their own mind re how to vote.

I do notice that you've decided against answering the question that ended my post.
199

,

19/07/2008 19:13:45
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200

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:14:21
jac 227

Ya reckon?
201

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:15:30
230: With over 4 billion followers it's a right good goin model!
202

Regret,

19/07/2008 19:15:37
#227

Tricks and deception.

The world is a stage.

Now DCD (dead cardiac donor) is proven to be a lie as well. What next?

Change the terms the definitions. Yes create more lies. But eventually, all will see the truth.

Trust no one with your loved one if they are unconscious. They are worth too much in the eyes of certain "doctors" just in parts.
203

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:17:33
Adolf 234: I guess you're entitled to your view, Adolf.
204

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 19:18:50

#228 Methalions: mmmmmmm!!!

Gona go and get some pizza and then eat Scottish Ice Cream!!!! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
205

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:20:03
Adolf 236:

Aye, granted, but when there are circa 4000 million relgious in the world its kinda hard for the intolerant seculars here to marginalise them as "bigots and zealots"
206

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:20:28
Adolf 238: Why?
207

,

19/07/2008 19:20:34
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208

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:21:28
235 True_Democrat,19/07/2008 19:17:33
Adolf 234: I guess you're entitled to your view, Adolf.

And now who is intolerant?

Scratch the surface and the bile seeps out!
209

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:21:29
241: Good question.
210

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:22:35
243: Methalions aka Adolf.
211

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 19:24:41
#229 True_Democrat
To answer your question then - I have no problem in cardinals HAVING an opinion, I'm just not all that bothered what it is. It's really no more important than mine is - or yours, actually!
I would disagree that their "research and information" is "objective" either. What they decide is their view and therefore purely subjective - as would their definition of what's right and proper.
212

monkey man,

19/07/2008 19:25:46
# 223 True Democrat

For the moment RC's can't dictate medical procedure in this country but they can in theocratic Ireland where women seeking abortion travel to the mainland.

No-one is forcing RC's to have medical treatment their "moral compass" tells them is wrong plus they can also opt out like other factions like Jehovah's Witnesses.
213

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:27:02
Religion is a business!

They sell you a ticket to Paradise and you must have "faith" in what they say before you can get there.

You have to conform to their dictats and thinking.

There is no evidence of the "afterlife" and as far as I know there has been no documented evidence of the dead returning to tell us all about it.

So, we buy a ticket to Paradise and if it doesn't exist we cannot return to get our money back!

Great wheeze, Great Business Model.

Buisness and Politics should not mix!
214

,

19/07/2008 19:27:25
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215

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:27:28
JG 247

Oh dear....more nonsense! Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!

The view of the Cardinals is subjective. Like you and me they're ENTITLED to their - subjective - opinion.

The information they pass to their flock is objective.

If you disagree, please provide examples.
216

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:28:34
251: Err...yes....Communism and religion...very similar...right.
217

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 19:28:40
218 True_Democrat

Well cut my legs off and call me Shorty, that's democracy is it?

Well permit me to retort: I would lay down my life, no less than you would, to preserve your right to disagree with me and to practice your faith. However, as I once heard it put: your right to swing your fist ends where it connects with my face.

Democracy cannot function unless there are opposed views, both of which can be absolutely right(no pun intended)in their own terms.

Religious institutions(the good Cardinal's in particular) have had disasterous effects on communities throughout the history of civilisation, due in part to their self-conferred infalability and their perceived need to convert and 'civilise' the infidel.

Who elected the Cardinal Keith O'Brien to pontificate on my morality, or lack thereof, and can his flock elect another more in line with their commonly held values?
218

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:29:53
jac 250:

best thing about it? It's optional!

Not for you? Great! Dont do it!

Is it OK if others do?

Or would you rather impose YOUR will on them?
219

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:30:39
Adolf 255:

Why not?
220

ThomasP,

19/07/2008 19:31:41
255 Methalions.

The Church is another 'Peer Pressure Group' within Politics.

Do you feel that other groups should keep out of Politics also?
221

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 19:32:58
#252 True_Democracy
Hang on - I'll type these really slowly for you so understand (perhaps a dictionary might help you too).
Everybody's view is subjective. Tell me how a subjective view held by a cardinal then becomes objective when it's passed on to the "flock".
222

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:36:11
livilion, 254

Interesting post. Some smart, some ignorant and stupid. LOL!

You seem to suggest I have a faith. MMMMmmmm.

Self conferred infallibility? Really? LOL!

I guess the Church's failings in the 5th century must be a real worry for you? LOL!

When did the Cardinal last pontificate on your morality?

You can pontificate.
I can pontificate.
Cardinal can pontificate. It's known as freedom of speech, Adolf.



223

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19/07/2008 19:36:54
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224

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:37:07
JG 260:

Try reading my posts properly.
225

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:37:53
262: Errr...yes...well done.
226

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 19:37:58
258 ThomasP,
If Cardinals or ministers of the cloth want to involve themselves in politics let them put their names on the ballot paper, like the Rev.Ian Paisley did in Ulster.

Otherwise by all means share their views with us but don't issue fatuas from the pulpit to us and our elected representatives.
227

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:39:35
Adolf 259: events in America are not uppermost in my thoughts.

There are bigots in scotland trying to suppress freedom of speech....that's more of a worry.
228

European Scot,

19/07/2008 19:39:57
205 Regret

" Organ transplantation propaganda made statements like this - now they include "enhancements" you can now enhance a person's lips or penus etc... with your body's tissues after your dead. Face the facts, it's all about money isn't it?"

No it is not just about money, it's about saving human lives.
If this were only about enhancing the prowess of some under-endowed male, I really wouldn't have written what I did.
No doubt at one time the study of anatomy was frowned upon.
Donating dead bodies for medical research ? Good grief no !
We've moved on quite a bit since then. Now the 'bodies' are much smaller, and technology can actually put them to good use, in trying to save lives, rather than simply just disposing of them.
If we have the ability, or even just the possibility, of saving lives using embryos then let's do so.
Better to spend a little more of our energy, time, and money on doing just that, rather than spending the obscene billions devoted to doing quite the opposite.
My own mother has had her life saved, and extended by the technology associated with heart transplants.
When you see the levels that have been reached in such technology first hand, and experienced the results of it at a personal level, there is no way you would argue against it.
229

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:40:11
#256 T D

That is the nub, for many it is NOT optional.

They are sent to religious schools where they are imprinted in a particular religion. Remind me what the Jesuits say regarding being given a child of a specific age. It can take a lifetime to divorce oneself of that baggage.

Perhaps I have been a little loose in my posts concerning religion and should differentiate an indivual's search for understanding which may lead them to a "faith" in order to explain their being. Fine by me as it would or should be a continuing search based on evidence and not superstition.

Organised Religion is a racket and I object religiously to that!

It is when cardinals, moderators, immams and even rabis push their collective driven point of view on any subject I reach for my Smith and Wesson.

Religion and education have no place in any society I want. Education connected with religion is indoctrination?

Chacun a son chemin but don't impose your pathway on me!

230

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:40:14
Adol 267: Might I humbly suggest there are many?
231

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 19:40:37
#264 True_Democracy
I did! Clearly you don't actually understand what you're saying yourself. Have you considerd posting on the CBBies website? You might make more sense there.
232

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:43:32
jac 270: Are you aware this is Scotland 2008?

Your post made me think of Limerick 1935?

Are you seriously suggesting a streetwise 15 year old Catholic from Kirkintilloch can be "indoctrinated" at School?

Really?

It's on such nonsensical and ignorant perspectives intolerant secularism feeds.
233

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:43:47
TD and by the way you have not even attempted to answer or consider post 212 livilion,livingston 19/07/2008 18:49:42

In case you have forgotten

"We might debate at what point embryos 'become people' but the research being discussed in this Bill is restricted to pre-embryos, or blastocysts, of less than two weeks which most pro-choice groups and almost all physicians define to be the start of pregnancy.

The clumps of cells being investigated are smaller than a pinhead, have no nervous system and would not register on a pregancy test.

The Bill also specifically prohibits the insertion of this material into a woman and could thus never even become viable, so hysterical newspaper rantings about Frankenstein creations or outpourings from concerned clergy seem to me to be a little misplaced.

I'm sure I recall similar outrage at the idea of transplanting a human heart 'the residence of the human soul' back in the sixties, when Professor Christiaan Barnard anounced he had carried out the procedure, following on from pioneering work in the USA using primate donors."
234

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:44:18
JG 272

Your failure to grasp simple & straightforward messages in my posts is not my problem.
235

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:45:07
jac 274: You're right. I havent even tried!
236

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:46:36
livi 266

Either that or preach the word of Jesus Christ from the pulpit and let His word guide Christians in Scotland in 2008.
237

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 19:47:01
#275 True_Democrat
Naw! It can't be! The only other person capable of churning out the kind of inane drivel you are is old Pax. Is it you ????

HC
I THINK PAX IS BACK!!!
238

,

19/07/2008 19:47:21
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239

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:47:33
Adolf 277: He's a nice Priest.
240

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:48:39
Horrible 280: you've got a real bad dose!
241

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:49:15
Adolf 282:

You're entitled to ignore her.

She's entitled to have a view.
242

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 19:50:24
To change tack somewhat since Numpty Heid won't answer my questions. Or rather, he can't see that our differing views mean that we will never agree. Except, of course, he shares the charism of infalibilty with the Pope.

The real shame of Glasgow East is that after many changes of government over the last 50 years at Westminster and three at Holyrood since it was created, the same lelvels of poverty are still evident.

PS Numpty, is it personal?
243

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:50:47
Adolf 285: tell?
244

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:51:39
"jac 270: Are you aware this is Scotland 2008?

Your post made me think of Limerick 1935?

Are you seriously suggesting a streetwise 15 year old Catholic from Kirkintilloch can be "indoctrinated" at School?"

If my post make you think of Limerick 1935 I wonder why? Is that your heritage and experience?

As for Kirkintilloch , well funnily enough yes! However it is not 15 years olds in isolation, as thoiugh they have not been exposed to religious indocrination from 5 and up. In case you think I am some clandestine bluenose I will include Madrassas in this.


A decoupling of religion and education is required and the devil take Tony Blair for extending religious based schooling .

245

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19/07/2008 19:51:49
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246

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:52:59
Wee Hugh 286

Numpty is worried about "religious bigots and zealots" who want "other people to die because of their religion."!!!!!!!

want other people to die, eh?

MMMmmmmmm...

247

jacquesmac,

19/07/2008 19:53:28
Greetings from Lenzie and my best wishe to St Ninians!
248

Scottish 'N British,

19/07/2008 19:53:40
I picked up a mint edition of Barnard's autobiography in Liverpool (I think) about 5 years ago.

Paid 99p.

Great bargain, even better read.
249

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:54:17
Adolf 290

Your Cinema perspective is clear.


And if you chose to attend a Catholic Church?
250

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19/07/2008 19:54:40
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True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:55:06
jac 292

Have you seen St Ninians School recently?
252

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:55:39
295: You've got both?
253

,

19/07/2008 19:55:40
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254

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:56:58
298: They havent gone away, you know....
255

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:57:15
boo
256

,

19/07/2008 19:57:18
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257

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 19:58:00
301: like you?
258

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:00:47
True Democrat,

Does the majority always have right on their side? Is it possible that there can be something which is right/wrong beyond what people think?
259

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19/07/2008 20:01:47
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260

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 20:04:02
#302 True_Democracy
I told you - keep the dictionary close by and you'll fare MUCH better. HC's words too much for you son?
261

,

19/07/2008 20:04:29
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262

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:05:41
Hugh 303

No

Yes
263

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:06:17
304: terrible, eh?
264

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:07:17
#307

So then, is it possible that embryo experimentation is wrong irrespective of whether people will live or die or not?
265

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:07:35
305: HC? Sorry....not been taking him seriously.
266

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 20:08:11
261 True_Democrat
>>Self conferred infallibility? Really? LOL!<<

Here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says on the subject:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
"That the Church is infallible in her definitions on faith and morals is itself a Catholic dogma, which, although it was formulated ecumenically for the first time in the Vatican Council, had been explicitly taught long before and had been assumed from the very beginning without question down to the time of the Protestant Reformation..." etc.

tit
267

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:09:06
Hugh 309

Yes.
268

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:10:10
311: Great stuff! And self conferred too!
269

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 20:13:45
#310 True_Democracy
Just you and your god (or his - or her - representatives on earth) eh?
270

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:13:55
#312

That has been my point all along with Numpty Heid. At least you can see that. Those who oppose embryo expreimentation are not simply a group of pope worshipers or frightened and unenlightned folk who haven't had the chance to think for themselves. They are sincere people whose opinion deserves to be taken seriously and not derided as those who 'tell me to go away and die' as Numpty Heid has repeated a few times in this forum.
271

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:16:42
JG 314: I have a god? Really?
272

Publius,

Girvan 19/07/2008 20:17:37
From today's online Telegraph:
"More poll gloom for Labour tomorrow with a ComRes survey for the Independent on Sunday putting the party on a "record low" (yes, another one) of 24 per cent. The Conservatives are 21 points ahead on 45 per cent and the Lib Dems are still languishing on 16 per cent.
Labour now seems locked into a spiral of gloom with 68 per cent agreeing with the statement that the party would lose the next election "regardless of who leads it".
No point in ditching Gordon Brown then, comrades. "You're dooooomed," as Dad's Army's Private Fraser would put it."
273

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:18:53
Wee Hugh 315:

Aye, and in your own style, Hugh, you're making a similar point to me.

It's the level of intolerance here that frightens me.

Real, palpable hatred on the website of an upmarket Embra newspaper in 2008. It's quite shameful.
274

European Scot,

19/07/2008 20:21:27
315 Wee Hugh

Your choice. Embryo down the drain, or under the microscope ?
275

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:21:44
317:

Shock...amazement....mid term poll taken after major global shocks (credit crunch & fuel prices) casts the UK Governmment of the day languishing far behind Tory boy.

Read all about it!!!!
276

monkey man,

19/07/2008 20:22:26
One doesn't need emryo-research to develop hideous chimeras. I seen a few of these creatures in Glasgow today, for example. Always the same when a bit of sunshine appears....lol
277

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:22:53
Euroscot 319

Is Hugh allowed to have a view?

Should we check first that he has not been influenced by religion?
278

livilion,

livingston 19/07/2008 20:23:10
318 True_Democrat
From a sh!t stirrer who refers to anyone disagreeing with him as Adolf that's priceless!
279

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:23:38
#318

Exactly,people who come at things from emotive perspectives and claim that they are being objective. Usually this objectivity extends as far as religion and then they become blind/bigoted/frightened/God knows what. Oh, for some calm rationality about people's right to believe and follow and express the tenets of their belief.
280

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 20:24:32
#316 True_Democracy
You, then!
281

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:24:59
Adolf 323

You wish!

Adolf does seem like an appropriate name for those who expose an aversion for freedom of speech in their posts.
282

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:25:39
JG 326: Me?
283

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 20:25:54
As someone who has 2 children (and another 2 attributed to me) plus 3 abortions (not me personally, of course) I would just to say that a man's attitude changes once the brain finds its way from the p e n i s to the cranium.

As much as I am dreading 3 spiritual children greeting me at the pearly gates asking why I killed them, the thought of modern man in 40 years time being confronted with a hybrid on the doorstep saying "Daddy?" is more frightening.

Glad to say I am too old for that to be my problem.

Guess what? P e n i s is considered unsuitable by the autobot retard of a moderator. The staff must be in the pub again.

Perhaps I should have used knob and lowered the adult rating of the ABC1 readership.
284

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:28:52
Col 325

Great stuff, eh?

Good on them!

That's not illegal, is it?

I recall when I was young my Parish Priest was a real Labour man too. You see.....in Scotland, even Priests are allowed to have political views!!!

285

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:29:50
Jock, 329

LOL!
286

European Scot,

19/07/2008 20:29:58
322 True_Democrat

" Is Hugh allowed to have a view?

Should we check first that he has not been influenced by religion? "

Of course.
It's a straight question, no religion involved.
Just awaiting a straight answer, no religion involved
287

JG,

19/07/2008 20:31:05
True_Democrat
Time for your medication, I think.
288

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19/07/2008 20:31:13
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,

19/07/2008 20:31:16
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True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:31:31
EuroScot 332

Thanks....just wanted to be sure.

We need to ensure that those Catholics dont get to vote.
291

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:31:38
European Scot,

#319

Embryo in the womb where it should be!
292

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:32:14
335: Sea men?
293

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:33:01
334: maybees ayes, maybees no.
294

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:33:35
333: Good post. A real insight.
295

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 20:35:53
#340 True_Democrat
First sensible thing you've said on here!
296

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:37:45
341: then that's one more than you.
297

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:38:20
Low lie......the fields....of Athenry...
298

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 20:39:40
338, True_Democrat.

When I was asked that question in the wild 70's I was, shall we say, a lottle bit stoned. Could have sworn the guy asking said, "Frank Sinatra if it's a good one".

He then told me it was the wrinkles.
299

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 20:39:41
#342
Nah nah nah nah nah!
300

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:42:31
JG 345: Hey Jude?
301

European Scot,

19/07/2008 20:42:49
337 Wee Hugh

If the Embryo is planned and meant to be there, I would agree with you.
But what if it's not meant to be there ?
Accidental, careless, rape.
Then what ?
302

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:43:01
Jock 344: LOL!
303

Eve,

Scotland P.S. OMG Irish cider is braw 19/07/2008 20:53:11
Reading this artcle I'm totaly shock that someone who is a prest or minster would say what this Father William Moran said:

"Father William Moran, of St Anne's in Parkhead, said: "I pray that people exercise their democratic right to vote and that it will be for the best for the local community and the success of the whole UK.""

Does he no pray for success of the whole world. Who narrow minded of him to concentrate on one union. I thought holly men where supose to stand for world peace and pray for people in need all over the world it appears Glasgow East has one who will only pray for thoes who live in the UK. I wonder if the pope will applages for this constovicy at some point.
304

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:55:44
EuroScot, 347

Surely you have got to make these decisions yourself?

As long as you act within the laws of the land.

I'm against abortion. I think it's brutal and savage and an appalling act in a supposedly civilised country in 2008. I think it's baby butchery. So, for me, where there is conception, there should be a pregnancy and, in due course, a child.

But you need to progress as you deem appropriate.
305

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 20:56:56
Eve 349

Are you drunk, or just stupid?
306

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 20:58:31
Abortion, embryo experimentation, I think they are wrong, no matter the circumstances.
307

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 19/07/2008 20:59:11
The indisputable historical fact is that the Church from its inception has generally been on the side of the powerful elte who have always supported it; such as Royalty, exploiting land owners etc.
When did they ever attempt to end the exploitation off children from as young as six from working in slave factories for a pittance when their parents were kept in binding poverty?.
When did they ever condemn the brutal exploitation of very young children pushed up the chimneys off the elite to clean them or youngsters forced into mills,
down coal and other type mines?
The whole nature of Religions were based on fear, slavery and exploitation, but NEVER on social justice.
Where did all their obscene wealth ownership of land and lavishly built Churches originate from when the ordinary people existed in dreadful hovels?
Where are they today, when the political establishment become more brazenly corrupt and wealthier, as ordinary people are being continually taxed to their eyeballs and become poorer?
308

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 21:01:59
#319 European Scot: What are you on about!

What goes down a drain as you speak is just all egg, is it now!!!!

Or are you talking about Abortion or Misscarages??

As a women I can tell you that what goes dowm the drain every month is lining from the womb NOT a fertlised egg so to speak. You could put the blood under a microscope if you like BUT you wont find what yer looking for.

Abortion is murder and should be taken as lightly as it is, it a babby i.e. wee person NOT an embroy or just a collection of cells. There should be a genuence problem i.e. health or rape for them to be grated.
309

Iainbroch,

Moray 19/07/2008 21:02:26
NEWSFLASH! NEWSPAPER OF THE YEAR!

DAILY RETARD EXCLUSIVE! SNP LIT DESTROYS TOURIST INDUSTRY

It was revealed today that SNP has secret plans that will destroy Scottish tourist industry and MILLIONS of highly paid and highly skilled jobs. Also the LIT comes under attack from a venerable and reputable source!

After just one year of SNP government NESSIE is to emigrate. We have exclusive interview with Nessie! Margaret Curran as our readers will know is a close relative of said beastie. Nessie says that SNPs LIT will drive her abroad due to unreasonable tax demands of LIT.

Also revealed – SNP to destroy Edinbra Castle, Rosslyn Chapel and several other sites of significance to tourist industry. LIT will damage ability of sites to stay open!

LIT will result in several Universities closing down. Academics and students revolt at plans.

LIT will close down all Scottish airports irreparably damaging tourist industry and economic development!

The end of the Union will mean end of British Open and the end of Golf in Scotland. Trump will have only Golf course in Scotland! It is thought that SNP has agreed to sell St.Andrews the hallowed home of golf to him on the cheap after collapse of Golf and tourist Industry.

LIT will close and result in the demolition of MILLIONS of Holiday homes!

Hundreds of MILLIONS of tourists are already turning their back on Scotland in disgust at SNPs NAZI racist policies’. The DAILY RETARD has contacted several potential tourists who have said they cancelled holidays plans because of SNP and LIT!

LIT will result in destruction of Scottish Nation!


DON’T LET IT HAPPEN – VOTE LABOUR ON 24TH JULY!

GET YOUR FREE FLAVOURED CONDOMS HERE: IT MAKES VOTING LABOUR A MORE PALATABLE PROPOSITION! SPECIALLY LUBRICATED FOR THE CONSTIPATED!




310

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:03:43
#353

Oh Wattie, what biased reading of history. Ever heard of the fundamental option for the poor. No to communism doesn't mean yes to capitalism.
311

Cletus the foetus,

Inside 19/07/2008 21:04:18
Don't I get a say in this?
312

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:04:49
wattie 353

The norm here is that posters make contributions on topics where they have some knowledge or insight.

Do you think it might have been better if you had refrained from posting, as plainly you know little of the topic we're debating?
313

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:05:44
357: Shut up or one of that mob will hoover you up.
314

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 21:06:35
#350 True_Democrat
#352 Wee Hugh
Well if you boys don't agree with abortion you should never have one. I think that's called "the right to choose".
315

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 21:07:47
#351 True_Democrat: Yer mean!

I think yer feel inadquet about yer self when yer trying to lable me in a negative manner.



I'm dyslexic and have had wan or twa doch and dorse.

Get a rip it's the weekend!!!

At the moment I live in dyslexic hell during the week!

316

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:08:04
JG 360: Aye, you're right....and I will continue to pursue - democratically of course - a society where baby butchery not allowed.
317

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:08:51
The question is should we have the right to choose. Does such a choice demean our basic humanity as we attack life at its inception.
318

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:09:11
Eve, 361:

Oh, so it was the latter.
319

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 21:11:03
#355 Iainbroch: Somthing smells funny!!!

Must be the flavoured thingys Maybe theyre passed there sell by date!!!
320

Regret,

19/07/2008 21:16:51
#269 - European Scot you say:

"My own mother has had her life saved, and extended by the technology associated with heart transplants.
When you see the levels that have been reached in such technology first hand, and experienced the results of it at a personal level, there is no way you would argue against it."

1. Your mother either received a heart directly from a living breathing donor (person) who may have been able to live - have you seen all the recent articles (last half year) about the people who have been declared "brain dead" and shortly after wake up? They all say they are happy to be alive. OR your mother got a valve which can be removed from a dead person.

As long as the dead person knew exactly what happens if he becomes a donor and is ok with it - that is explicit consent. But who really is told the truth about organ transplantation?

2. I have seen the "levels that have been reached in such technology first hand, and experienced the results of it at a personal level" the result:

MURDER

I have proof.
321

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:17:30
#366

Blimp,

is that a true likeness of you. I remember as a child playing with Lego. What age are you?
322

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 21:17:30
#364 True_Democrat: Yer no a democrat are ye!!!
Either that yer naw Scottish and have miss read ma braw Scots.

BUT what really is distrubing is that someone who calls them self a democrat can discrinate aagainst thoes with a disabilty. I dread what to think what you would say to a blind/ deaf person or a whell chair user.
323

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19/07/2008 21:18:42
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,

19/07/2008 21:19:41
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19/07/2008 21:20:34
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European Scot,

19/07/2008 21:20:34
350 True_Democrat

The need to abort can be for many different medical reasons, as well as social ones.
I would tend to support termination in the case of a rape victim, unless the victim actually wanted to go ahead with the birth.
It is the woman's choice at the end of it all.
There could be medical reasons for aborting.
Whatever the reasons may be, the decision should be reached by the woman and her doctors.
The point is, if you have decided to terminate, do you flush the embryo away, or do you make positive use of it ?
Research using embryos could actually help save lives.
327

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:23:27
#373

Get your sceince rigth. You can't use abortions for embryo experimentation. They tend to get mutilated in the process.
328

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:24:20
Blimp,

too much detail, I was taking the ...
329

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:25:54
Regret

Were you born mad, or did it just come upon you? Murder is nature's way of saying there are too many of us. Likewise wars. Better to do away with the likes of me than kill real people. I was just a quickie you know.

I could have ended my days in a johnny, but His Holiness (God bless his Nazi youth) thinks it's a bad thing. Hey! Maybe if I come to a full term I'll have AIDS. GBTP.

330

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:27:40
372: Yes, of course I'll answer, and I'm well equipped to handle any ensuing "response"....immediately after everyone else on this page reveals their beliefs.
331

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:28:10
Wee Hugh on the 375 special

Rubbish. Science is rubbish. The Mediaeval popes said so.
It must be true.

(I wonder what John Knox would make of this)
332

,

19/07/2008 21:29:14
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333

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:29:18
EuroScot 373: Yep, for me....no baby butchery.....and it should be a society choice: like the brutal murder of a new born baby is illegal.
334

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:29:19
Cletus,

I think you might need some help, there are a lot of issues in your last post, #377. Or maybe, you could write one of those 'I had a terrible conception/childhood/life' books and make a fortune.
335

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19/07/2008 21:30:17
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336

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:30:24
Cletus 377: Aye, GBTP!
337

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:31:13
380: Pan?
338

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:31:35
383: What question?
339

Regret,

19/07/2008 21:31:54
#377 Cletus the foetus -

I suppose "it" came upon me. But it seems you to have gone through the wringer.

340

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:31:54
#379

What?
341

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:32:04
378

"Yes, of course I'll answer, and I'm well equipped to handle any ensuing "response"....immediately after everyone else on this page reveals their beliefs."

1 I believe in a supreme being.
2 I believe there is a God of the unborn (not the undead as that's a different kettle of fur).

3 I believe for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows
I believe that somewhere in the darkest night a candle glows
I believe for everyone who goes astray someone will come to show the way
I believe, I believe


342

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19/07/2008 21:32:46
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343

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:33:52
Eve 369

You're no disabled.

You're just stupid.
344

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:34:17
Hugh the petri dish

They said the world is flat
They said the earth moved round the sun
They said that Heather McCartney hadn't a leg to stand on

I rest my case.
345

European Scot,

19/07/2008 21:34:43
367 Regret

The operation on my mother used the technology of heart transplant surgery, but did not involve any spare parts from another human being, rather synthetic parts, and parts transplanted from other parts of her own body.
To see the level of technology involved was quite inspiring.
This was all about saving life, not murder.
346

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:35:09
390: You see....all that Kafflick education...see!
347

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19/07/2008 21:36:20
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348

,

19/07/2008 21:36:58
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349

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:37:23
True_Troll

I rather suspect you don't have a willie.

If you do though, is it a Lawson sausage or a button mushroom?

Do you wear women's underwear? I know I would like to.

Are you 45 years old and your mother WISHED she had had an abortion?
350

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:37:25
#392

Cletus,

From their perspective that was the scientific truth. Sound familiar?
351

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:39:10
395: Really? So, it must be so? MMMmmmm.

I reached my conclusion on her stupidity based on her posts pre se rather than any comment on how she constructs her words.
352

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:40:02
398: Yep, scientific truth........at that time.
353

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:41:25
396: but of course....mon ami.
354

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:43:37
What's the point? I mean what is the bloo­dy point? You are born then you've got to look for a job. You slave away then the government says you've to work till you're 175. You then have (if you're lucky), three weeks of retirement. What can you do in three weeks?

Every so often I take a peek to see what's happening. If I'm not knifed within the first 15 years of my life that's a bonus. I'd probably end up in a relationship with a nutter like True_Democrat.

I'm staying where I am.
355

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:44:36
402: you're not my sort.
356

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:44:46
#402

Cletus,

cheer up, I'm almost feeling sorry for you.
357

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:45:16
God is to blame. She just doesn't care. I know this because She told me. I hear voices you know.
358

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:46:10
405: Voices? Cheap Trick?
359

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19/07/2008 21:46:27
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360

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:46:27
Wee Hugh,

Cletus,

"cheer up, I'm almost feeling sorry for you."

If my mother would just have swallowed, I wouldn't be in this predicament.
361

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 21:47:01
#394 True_Democrat
Maybe it was thanks to Andrew Lloyd Webber!
362

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:47:11
Cletus,

Keep taking the pills and go lie down in a cool darkened and quiet room. She'll go away.
363

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:48:48
I've a horrible feeling I'm twins! There's an annoying wee shi­te beside me trying to say something. Give me a minute.
364

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 21:49:44
Anyway, I feel sorry for people who take their opinions from a religion - I do not de-nominate, I nominate.

And that goes for all religion of the man made kind.

Apologies to woman but religion was man made although I am sure there was a woman looking over his shoulder telling him how to do it.

Which is why God made Adam before Eve.
365

Regret,

19/07/2008 21:49:56
#393 -

Well that is great that your mother did not receive tissue that would not belong to her. Her system would want to destroy it and she would have to take autoimmune suppressant drugs to keep from rejecting the foreign tissue. These drugs lead to a weakened system vulnerable to diseases from their own bodies and also from the donor tissue. Just last year organs taken from a young man (16) gave the 4 people cancer. The two that died just months after receiving organs where the heart and liver patients. 2 that received the kidneys had them immediately removed but then were going through chemotherapy. It's risky and not the permanent answer because the body will eventually reject the foreign part. It is just a matter of time.
366

Wee Hugh,

19/07/2008 21:52:04
#412

Oh to be so self certian not to need affirmation from anyone (human or divine).
367

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:52:53
Well that's him well and truly scuppered. I told him this town ain't big enough for the both of us. He has self-destructed. I told him that to self-destruct was a mortal sin. he said that as he wasn't mortal yet it wasn't a sin. He's got a point. Then again so has a pencil.
368

European Scot,

19/07/2008 21:53:41
381 True_Democrat

" Yep, for me....no baby butchery.....and it should be a society choice: like the brutal murder of a new born baby is illegal."

A somewhat emotive outburst.
No one is suggesting murdering new born babies, what an appalling suggestion.
We are talking about helping future generations survive illnesses which currently do kill.
We are talking about saving lives using unwanted embryos.
If you knew that in the future your nearest and dearest could be saved by using the results of a technology that had used embryos in its development, would you actually prevent its use ?
I doubt that very much.
369

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:53:50
407: I'm no' worried about what YOU think...
370

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:54:17
413 Regret

You made that up. Link please. Are you a born again numptie?
371

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:56:21
For it was spake "The lion will lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep."

Woody Allen
372

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:56:24
EuroScot, 416

Yes, I agree, baby butchery IS an appalling thing for a society to contemplate.....let alone allow.

I havent commented on the embryo debate yet, and I'm not planning to....
373

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:56:59
pre se is a "hint" for pre sent"
374

Regret,

19/07/2008 21:57:14
Oh Cletus - I don't lie.

What do you think I made up?

About the 16 year old boy? About his cancerous organs?

It's not a lie.



375

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:58:07
Col 419: Shucks....no!

Pre se - just shows my typing is sh!t.
376

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 21:58:53
Is Embryo the Italian name for Scotland's capital?
377

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 21:59:44
#391 True_Democrat: Yer no a democrat!!

#395 Horrible Cankers @ Cyber Shebeen: Thanks, though I think they my have an infearty complex which makes want to lable folk in a negative manner. I've met people like this before and I know they have nothing on me to lable me to prove that lable correct. Their just tring to lable me with a stigma it won't work.

Form surrived 4 years at Uni,I have developed a high level of understadion towards what drives negative behaviour. And I fully understand why they are labling me in a nigative manner, it's because they want me to call them names back so they can claim victamiastion.

It anti going to happen cause I beive in equailty and don't belive in rushing in to lable people in a negative way.
378

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 21:59:52
Jock 412: your views...your prerogative!
379

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:00:25
423

Yes you lie. He would have caught it anyway. Life's a bitch and then you die. Coincidence.

(Bobby Bare)
380

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:01:29
Cletus is now bored. Cletus has had enough. I'm going to a better place (Sunday Herald).

Avanti!
381

Regret,

19/07/2008 22:01:55
Cletus - here is the link - but Alex was 15 years old:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24001110/

382

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 22:02:30
#426 Eve
No, I think he might be a Christian.
383

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/07/2008 22:03:21
414, Wee Hugh.

Are you slagging my religion out of jealousy? Who says I am self-certain? You?
384

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 22:03:23
Eve 426: I'm not? Errr...right. OK.

I reached my conclusion on your stupidity based on your posts per se rather than any comment on how you construct her words.

Spare us the victimhood charade....it may impress others, Eve, but it doesnt impress me.
385

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:03:32
The Labour candidate is now trying for the Islamic vote. She is now calling herself Margaret Qur’an.

Despicable!
386

Regret,

19/07/2008 22:03:50
Cletus -

Don't leave before you check out the link. Life is a bigger bitch than you ever thought.

387

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 22:04:53
JG 431: Ya reckon?
388

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:05:01
430
Regret,

"Cletus - here is the link - but Alex was 15 years old:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24001110/"

I now retract my idiotic post. Sorry.
389

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:06:18
Various posters

I had some time to kill. I was bored. I trolled. I blame society. I apologise. I will not return. Avanti!
390

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 22:06:19
437: Which idiotic post? You have made several.
391

True_Democrat,

19/07/2008 22:07:21
438: You'll be back. You'll have a different name. You'll be just as daft.
392

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:08:10
One (ish) more before I cling on for dear life.

True_Democrat. STOP TROLLING!

393

JG,

Fife 19/07/2008 22:08:35
#436 True_Democrat
Only nominally.
394

Eve,

Scotland 19/07/2008 22:08:39
#407 Horrible Cankers @ Cyber Shebeen: In an odd way he's right. I'm no really disabled BUT I do have dyslexia which is classed as a Disablity under the Discrimination Acts.

True what every ye are: I never said I was disabled I said I had a disabilty, which is true under the disablity discrimination Acts (many of them). You should really look up a dictionary disabled and disabilty have silghtly diffrent meanings.
395

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:09:36
I only ever post as Cletus the Foetus!

Except of course when I'm not. AVANTI!

ps Don't do drugs.
396

Cletus the foetus,

19/07/2008 22:10:23
Eve

I think I love you. Will you be my mummy?