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Idea of Team Scotland at Olympics might not be so ridiculous after all



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Published Date: 26 August 2008
IN practical terms, Chris Hoy may have been correct to say that the notion of a Scottish team in the Olympic Games is "at this stage . . . ridiculous". The cyclist, a triple gold medal winner in Beijing, has first-hand knowledge of the poor facilities we have here in some sports, and is aware that a series of political hoops would have to be jumped through before Scotland came close to competing in its own right.
But are those obstacles insurmountable? Or could something which might now seem ridiculous become, with the passing of time, a whole lot more realistic?

Up to the present, the debate has been less about the feasibility of a Scotland team, and more
a reflection of the political preferences of those involved. Supporters of independence have suggested that the success of Hoy and others serves to show that Scottish sport can be successful, while backers of the union prefer to point to the success of Team GB as an example of the benefits of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all working together.

In other words, the issue of Olympic representation is in danger, to muddle a metaphor, of becoming a political football. As on more fundamental social and economic issues, the pro- independence camp says "We can do it" and the pro-unionists say "It'll never work". A large percentage of both groups has little interest in the facts, and a whole lot more interest in punting their prefabricated opinions.

If we attempt a more dispassionate look at the matter, we are likely to come up with a formula which is a lot less simplistic than "We can do it" or "It'll never work". A formula such as "We can't do it right now, but it could work in future given certain conditions".

The first condition, as First Minister Alex Salmond surely knows well, is that Scotland must achieve independence before it will be admitted as a participating member of the Olympic movement. Yes, there are some exceptions to the rule that only sovereign countries can take part in the Games – Hong Kong's inclusion in Beijing as a team in its own right being one – but in general the International Olympic Committee (IOC) does not rush to recognise a country whose independent existence has yet to be acknowledged by the outside world.

As a former economist, Salmond is well aware that the independence debate is far more likely to be won or lost on down-to-earth issues of everyday life rather than public feelings about a sports event which takes place for a fortnight every four years. All the same, he is not going to turn down the votes of anyone who decides that the Olympics have become a make-or-break issue for them. If even a handful of previously apolitical people decide they so want a Scottish team at the Games that they are prepared to back independence to get it, that will make the argument worthwhile as far as the Scottish National Party leader is concerned.

Once Scotland became independent, and was recognised as a sovereign state first by other countries and then the IOC, how would we fare? Would our team be a success or an embarrassment?

That depends to an extent on how you define success. It is inconceivable at present that Scotland on its own could come anywhere close to the 19 gold medals which Team GB brought back from Beijing yesterday, but then not so long ago it was inconceivable that Great Britain would do anything like as well as it has done this time. The medal tally from the 1996 Games in Atlanta, for instance, was a meagre one gold, eight silver and six bronze.

Since then, of course, Lottery funding has helped massively, and an independent Scottish government would have to ensure that the money did not dry up. But it is at least an indication that in the right circumstances things can change.

And in any case, the biggest multi-sport event at which Scotland does compete in its own right, the Commonwealth Games, has shown that our athletes can already thrive. The depth of opposition there is not what it is in the Olympics, but our swimmers who did so well in Melbourne, for example, had to get the better of their rivals from Australia and England, to mention just two countries who are pretty strong at the sport.

Only four Scots won medals in Beijing – Hoy, his cycling team-mate Ross Edgar, rower Katherine Grainger and canoeist David Florence. But more Scots would get into a Scottish team than have been selected for a British one, and smaller countries than our own have shown that it is possible to punch above your weight.

Back in 1996, Ireland (with a population of four million compared to Scotland's five) won three gold medals to Britain's one. This year, around three million Jamaicans were able to celebrate six gold medals and 13th place in the table.

Would a similar tally represent success for Scotland? Might we go all Corinthian and decide that simply taking part in our own right was more important than winning?

Nationalists might be tempted to take the latter approach, at least at first. Unionists would, by definition, be more likely to long for the days when Team GB was indeed united.





The full article contains 903 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 00:45:45
Vote for Independence, you will guarantee a separate Team Scotland at future Olympics and five times as many Scots participants as today. It disnae matter how good or bad they are - 19 gold medals does zip for Engerland's crumbling economy and disintegrating society.
2

WJohn,

West Lothian 26/08/2008 01:41:02
Team UK have already ditched Team NI to create Team GB so why not take it further and have Team Alba, Team Cymru, Team IOM, and Team Engerland that other part of the former United Kingdom. Maybe then we can have some sports commentators with the clarity and knowledge of Bill McLaren instead of all these Alan Partridge immitators.
3

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 08:45:51
#1 & #2 Presumably all the English people that you've met in your lives have treated you with the same disdain and contempt that you show for their country?
4

Indy Rep Kid...,

26/08/2008 09:06:00
Good luck with the funding!
5

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 10:00:42
"#1 & #2 Presumably all the English people that you've met in your lives have treated you with the same disdain and contempt that you show for their country?"

Actually, I get on pretty well with all my English relatives and friends, same as I do with relatives and friends in many other nations. Does not mean I want to have dual nationality, the same olympic team, the same fitba team, or the same government though, does it.
6

G,

dundy 26/08/2008 10:22:14
Come independence and there will be a team Scotland - this is not an either/or question...HOwever the SNP gov don't seem too bothered about independence at the moment...where is our referendum?
7

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 10:58:39
#5 My reply to your post is nothing to do with what you want regarding nationality or sports teams. I am in the same position.

I was merely commenting on what I perceived as anti-English comments. If I am wrong in this then fair enough, but you can't blame me for sticking up for England.

8

JenJen,

WestIsBest 26/08/2008 11:11:36
#5 Why then are you incapable of expressing your national wishes without doing so in terms of sneering disdain and contempt? I'm sick and tired of your type and you embarrass me as a Scot. Sorry Beergoggles. We are not all like that twit.
9

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 11:21:59
#8 No worries JenjJen, I know things get pretty heated on these forums. Scotland is one of my favourite countries which is probably why I come on this website.
I dislike it when issues become England vs Scotland, and just wish that both countries would go forward together either united or as seperate 'states'.

Now pass the bucket!
10

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 11:37:39
By the way, does anyone know what the Chinese for "Britain" is?

Probably not. And you won't get it out of any dictionary, as it doesn't exist.

The Chinese have a word for England, and a word for Scotland. They just translate Britain as England. It is not even like German or French, which have Grand Bretagne and Grossbritannien - Chinese, along with Arabic, Japanese, Hindi, Urdu etc, has no word at all for the concept.

Still the choice exists in English, and most people choose Britain, right?

http://tinyurl.com/5h723c

"England's Chris Hoy shows his three Olympics gold medals won during cycling competition in Beijing 2008 Olympics, on August 19, 2008, in Beijing, China. Photo by Lucas"
11

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 11:50:34
#7, #8: I'm sure England will survive on her own and be a good neighbour to Scotland post independence.

Are you twa saying my comment in #1 is somehow inaccurate, viz - "..19 gold medals does zip for Engerland's crumbling economy and disintegrating society." Do inform me if I have this wrong. Perhaps you have been following the EBC coverage of Team GB exploits too closely and forgot to look at the other news?
12

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 11:51:34
#10 If this is true then no-one can disagree with you that it is wrong. Hopefully someone will correct the Chinese.
13

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 11:55:07
#12 Engerland is a wrong spelling for England, yeah, though I agree with you that 19 gold medals does little for anybody's economy.
14

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 11:55:53
Or even #11
15

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 11:57:35
#11 And that's Mr. twa to you.
16

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 12:53:08
"Hopefully someone will correct the Chinese."

There isn't anything to "correct it to", since there is no word for Britain, because it hasn't been invented.

The same goes for Japanese, Urdu, Swahili, Hindi, Lao, Thai, Malay, Indonesian, Arabic, Farsi and umpteen other languages originating from outside Europe.
17

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 12:54:42
"Engerland is a wrong spelling for England"

I believe it originates from the way that England fans chant their name during games... it makes it easier to pronounce.
18

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 13:00:13
#16 Putting a debate about the existence of Britain aside, the word itself exists so therefore it is not unreasonable to expect the Chinese to come up with a term.

19

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 13:07:26
#17 Yeah, I'm well aware of that. Some of our football fans in the past have needed help pronouncing words, so you can't blame me for distancing myself from the term even further.
20

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 13:13:46
"therefore it is not unreasonable to expect the Chinese to come up with a term."

Well, it exists in European languages, e.g. Grossbritannien, Grand Bretagne, Bretana, Britaniya, Stora Bretland etc

Scottish taxes help fund "English" embassies in various parts of the world. I remember the Tories going on about the Scottish investment consortium in Japan... of course, their English literature will all be "Scotland is in Britain", "British" this and that, but the stuff they put out in Japanese will say that Scotland is part of England (Igirisu).
21

Edwards Legend,

Pluto 26/08/2008 13:32:56
Salmond probably thinks Scotland could have their own space programme, this is just a likely

SNP (Spacecadets National Party)
22

Kenny Boy,

26/08/2008 13:39:27
It is so common on this website for people to get involved in their own political debate and fail to see what is best for sportsmen. Chris Hoy is correct that he wouldn't have won 3 golds without a british team. a main reason cycling is so strong is it pulls together all the resources required, hires in world class coaches from abroad and has the athletes living and training at a world class facility. The same goes for the rowers. That is the samrt, strategic way to use resources. Scotland couldn't provide this level of support alone - find the resources, best thinkers, best coaches and use them to the best of their ability. Scotland realised this 6 years ago to develop its best youngsters when it established area institutes. This required local authorities to work together - nearly as bad as the Scotland/England issue. Of course you won't know this if you aren't invloved in sport. Listen to the sports people!! UK is the only way to succeed at Olympic level.
23

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:03:43
"Chris Hoy is correct that he wouldn't have won 3 golds without a british team. a main reason cycling is so strong is it pulls together all the resources required, hires in world class coaches from abroad and has the athletes living and training at a world class facility."

Chris Hoy can't see the wood for the trees.

There are no decent facilities in Scotland partly because we pay for the ones in southern England, and that money is diverted from sport here.
24

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 14:17:41
Well the facilities around where I live are frankly shocking.
25

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:29:33
Beergoggles, I am well aware that this is the case in many parts of England too, particularly the north, and south west. Nearly all of it's located in the Birmingham-London corridor, with some facilities in Manchester. It sums up the UK nicely. Why should London rule us when it can't even look after all of England?
26

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 14:30:58
#25 No worries mate.
27

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 14:31:55
#22 "UK is the only way to succeed at Olympic level."

That depends on how you define 'UK success'. Also depends on how much success you (or your UK 'nation'?) think you or UK 'need' or 'want'. What exactly do these medals do for the average person on the UK street? Does it make them/us UK people feel good? Can you really define 'UK success' at 'Olympic level' and its impacts? Take your time........

It gets condescendingly better:
#22 "Scotland couldn't provide this level of support alone - find the resources, best thinkers, best coaches and use them to the best of their ability."

Naw, yer bang on there, we jist cannae dae it, so we cannae. We really need yer big GB help, gie us a lift up an a' that. We cannae look efter wirsels at a'. Thanks GB/UK, Lords Moynihan & Coe, Hen Broon, Beckam et al, thanks awfully much. Grovel grovel.......cringe cringe....
28

SportyScot,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 14:36:16
#22 is spot on.
For the individual sports person and the overall team, it is the pooling of resources and competition that raises standards.
Sport is not just about competition though, in participation at any standard you meet people with similar interests and disregard where they are from. This happens at camps for kids through to training for adults in all kinds of sports. Dividing the Olympic team into home nations would have the same divisive affect as with football.
Lastly, Katherine Grainger may have learnt to row on the Union Canal but has spent most of her career in England - why? Facilities and crewmates. She did not do it alone Stewart Bathgate!!!
I'm Scottish for culture and traditions but British for everything else.
29

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:37:13
#26 I'd be perfectly happy, as a Scottish tax payer, to fund new facilities in northern/south western England, Wales, even NI, in addition to ones in Scotland, but please no more stuff in London and the areas which are overprovided for!
30

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:38:28
"Dividing the Olympic team into home nations would have the same divisive affect as with football."

Myth.

Ever heard of the All Blacks?

One of the most successful teams in the history of rugby?

Or the Welsh rugby team of the 1960s/70s?

Both of these places have a population of about three million a piece.
31

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 14:44:54
#29 Agreed. Wembley's a dump anyway, there were far better places (even in London) to have built it. But we have to stick to our traditions on these islands!
32

Darien,

Panama 26/08/2008 14:56:35
#30 And New Zealand had a team of well over 100 in China, Norway had 90, whereas Scotland only had a pathetic 19 there, under 6% of Team GB. Union Dividend anyone? Scots opportunities are very limited as part of Team GB more like. Any comment on that SportyScot #28?

Scots athletes should be brave enough to climb the pole and change the flag now, for the benefit of those Scots who will follow them - their moment of glory does not linger long after all.
33

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 14:56:43
What bothered me about Wembley (in a funny way) is that they didn't even keep the two white entrance towers. They were iconic, and now the place could be a dull stadium anywhere.
34

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 15:01:51
#32 Hello happy english, so you'd probably agree that more funding for sporting facilites elsewhere in the UK (as opposed to the SE) would be a good thing?

#34 yes, good point. So much for tradition, but they didn't even keep the twin towers.
35

SportyScot,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 15:25:18
#30 I said football and was talking about its divisive nature. The hatred the World Cup seems to bring out i.e. Scots supporting Portuguese / Jamaicans over the English team.
I do not doubt that athletes from small countries can achieve great things in sport, there are many, many examples of amazing individuals and teams, but, as a general rule, behind medals are the following elements: research, support teams, salaries, facilities and equipment (i.e. a huge amount of investment) and competition for a place on that team.
#33 In my experience of sport, it is pretty easy to get on the Scottish team (Commonwealths, Home Countries etc), so I would suppose that the standard of the Scottish athlete was not high enough when it came to selection for the Olympic team. I have not heard of any Scottish athletes making excuses or complaining of discrimination.

It just seems to be Scottish nationalists jumping on any old bike...

So Whistelblower and Beer Goggles - who would you let in your all "Scottish team" for the 2012 Olympics - only pure Scots - oh hang on there is no such thing? Help me out on that one guys?
36

Jofrad,

Cornwall UK 26/08/2008 15:27:34
I am a Liverpudlian living in Cornwall and I dearly wish you Scots would make up your mind once and for all whether you want to be part of the UK.
37

Kenny Boy,

26/08/2008 15:30:20
Cheers Sporty Scot
Darien, sports people lost the chip on their shoulder a long time ago. That's why the medallisits are so successful. Do your realise the top coaches helping these athletes are expensive international coaches? No probably not as you're si uninformed.
Whistleblower - All Black's argument-fantastic for what they do in 1 sport. NZ Olympics-9 medals in total!! Welsh rugby-been in the doldrums for 30 years apart from odd success. I want constant success in Olympic sport not occassional.
38

Beergoggles,

England 26/08/2008 15:36:28
#37 Sportyscot

Not sure what gist you got here, but certainly the beginning of the thread made it quite clear that I'm English. Latterly in the thread I agreed that there should be more funding elsewhere in the UK (esp. N England, Scotland, Wales) as opposed to the SE.

Not sure where the confusion was!
39

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 16:53:12
"I am a Liverpudlian living in Cornwall and I dearly wish you Scots would make up your mind once and for all whether you want to be part of the UK."

Some of us have already.

"who would you let in your all "Scottish team" for the 2012 Olympics - only pure Scots - oh hang on there is no such thing"

The criteria would be exactly the same for any other Olympic team. Why wouldn't it be?

"Whistleblower - All Black's argument-fantastic for what they do in 1 sport. NZ Olympics-9 medals in total!! Welsh rugby-been in the doldrums for 30 years apart from odd success. I want constant success in Olympic sport not occassional."

Constant success? Like Team GB in 1996, when they managed to scrape in ONE gold medal? Hardly.

The Welsh were the stars of the last Six Nations.
40

Jofrad,

Cornwall UK 26/08/2008 17:22:51
"I am a Liverpudlian living in Cornwall and I dearly wish you Scots would make up your mind once and for all whether you want to be part of the UK

Some of us have already."

Yes but not enough of you to make a go of it. For independence to work for Scotland you'll need a significant majority in favour, otherwise the country will be riven with strife. They'll be an awful lot of Scots applying for dual nationality and that will include most of those living in England and Wales who don't opt to stay British.
41

WHISTLEBLOWER,

26/08/2008 18:33:59
"Yes but not enough of you to make a go of it"

I think there may well be enough from recent polls.

But since we aren't allowed to vote on the subject...

"They'll be an awful lot of Scots applying for dual nationality"

They already have that (unofficially S& B), and quite a few have that (officially - British/Pakistani etc)

Although British was never a real nationality to begin with.
42

Jofrad,

Cornwall UK 26/08/2008 19:17:14
Whistleblower where are you coming from ??
You WILL get the chance to vote on independence if enough of you want it, who's going to stop you, the English people won't.
For independence to work you're going to need a hefty majority in favour which you haven't got now.
British nationality has been a reality longer than most nation states have existed, well over 50 million people are proud to be British and if you want to be pedantic, Scotland is a racial mix of Angles, Britons, Gaels, Picts and Norse (but no Scousers !).
43

WHISTLEBLOWER,

Pissaff 26/08/2008 23:10:11
"Scotland is a racial mix of Angles, Britons, Gaels, Picts and Norse"

And?

I still want independence.

What's your point caller?
44

The Scotchman,

27/08/2008 10:39:25
- Scotland can stand alone at Olympics.. says Chris Hoy. The Edinburgh cyclist rubbished reports that he thought the idea was "ridiculous".

"I feel a bit upset that I have been quoted as saying the idea of a Scottish Olympic team is ridiculous.

"If and when a Scottish team was put together, I would be delighted to represent Scotland in the Olympic Games."

http://tinyurl.com/6apykg
45

Sassy Nak,

28/08/2008 13:37:04
Whistle Blower:
"They'll be an awful lot of Scots applying for dual nationality"
They already have that (unofficially S& B), and quite a few have that (officially - British/Pakistani etc)
Although British was never a real nationality to begin with


Is this the problem? Once Pakistanis can start to claim to be British and proud of it you don't want to be in the club anymore?
46

David H. Stewart,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 10:56:17
Stuart

Ireland's 3 Gold Medals in Atlanta 1996 were won by Michelle Smith - exposed as a drug cheat. Rather demolishes your argument I fear.

 

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